Blues vs Rap

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,moocowpoo
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:21 PM

Listening to rap on the radio and forming a blanket opinion of the 'intelligence' of this genre of music is (to me), akin to going to a cd shop, buying a collection entitled 'the auld emerald isle- 40 irish drinking songs' and concluding that all Irish music is shite.   Most rap you will hear on the radio is form the mainstream artists, I like about the same percentage of this and any other mainstream music.    I love Finnish and irish trad,,,,but I've also come across some excellent rap!
If you do more than scratch the surface of rap, you can find songs with lyrics such as these:

Television, Drug of the Free
by Disposable Heroes of Hipocrisy (Michael Franti, 1991):


One nation under god has turned into
one nation under the influence of one drug

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

T.V., it satellite links
our united states of unconsciousness
apathetic therapeutic and extremely addictive
the methadone metronome pumping out
150 channels 24 hours a day
you can flip through all of them
and still there's nothing worth watching
T.V. is the reason why less than ten percent
of our nation reads books daily
why most people think Central America means Kansas
socialism means unamerican
and apartheid is a new headache remedy
absorbed in its world it's so hard to find us
it shapes our mind the most
maybe the mother of our nation
should remind us that we're sitting too close to...

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

T.V. is the stomping ground
for political candidates
where bears in the woods
are chased by grecian formula'd bald eagles
T.V. is mechanized politic's
remote control over the masses
co-sponsored by enironmentally safe gases
watch for the PBS special
it's the perpetuation of the two-party system
where image takes precedence over wisdom
where sound bite politics are served
to the fastfood culture
where straight teeth in your mouth
are more important than the words
that come out of it
race baiting is the way to get elected
Willie Horton or will he not get elected on...

(chorus)
Televison, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

T.V., is it the reflector or the director
does it imitate us or do we imitate it
because a child watches 1500 murders
before he's twelve years old
and we wonder how we've created
a Jason generation that learns to laugh
rather than abhor the horror
T.V. is the place where armchair generals
and quarterbacks can experience first hand
the excitement of video warfare
as the themesong is sung in the background
sugar sweet sitcoms that leave us with
a bad actor taste while pop stars metamorphosize
into soda pop stars you saw the video
you heard the soundtrack
well now go buy the soft drink
well, the only cola that I support
is a union C.O.L.A. (cost of living allowance) on...

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

Back again, "new and improved"
we return to our irregularly programmed schedule
hidden cleverly between heavy breasted
beer and car commmercials
CNNESPNABCTNT but mostly B.S.
where oxymoronic language like
"virtually spotless" "fresh frozen"
light yet filling" and
"military intelligence" have become standard
T.V. is the place where phrases are redefined
like "recession" to "necessary downturn"
"crude oil" on a beach to "mousse"
"civilian death" to "collateral damages"
and being killed by your own army
is now called "friendly fire"
T.V. is the place where the pursuit of
happiness has become the pursuit of trivia
where toothpaste and cars
have become sex objects
where imagination is sucked out of children
by a cathode ray nipple
T.V. is the only wet nurse
that would create a cripple
on...

(chorus)
Television, the drug of the nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM

and there is also "The Message" by grandmaster flash

i totally agree with the above post - you cannot judge rap by what you hear on the radio. like i said, its not even rap, its pop - entertainment, not music.

the "rap" artists of modern day give good rap a bad name, just like the cheeky girls give music a bad name

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:19 AM

just to add, the lyrics to "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash
excuse any mistakes, its a quick copy from t'internet
--------------------------------

Broken glass everywhere
People pissing on the stairs, you know they just
Don't care
I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise
Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice
Rats in the front room, roaches in the back
Junkie's in the alley with a baseball bat
I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
Cause the man with the tow-truck repossessed my car

Chorus:

Don't push me, cause I'm close to the edge
I'm trying not to loose my head
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from going under

Standing on the front stoop, hangin' out the window
Watching all the cars go by, roaring as the breezes
Blow
Crazy lady, livin' in a bag
Eating out of garbage bins, used to be a fag-hag
Search and test a tango, skips the life and then go
To search a prince to see the last of senses
Down at the peepshow, watching all the creeps
So she can tell the stories to the girls back home
She went to the city and got so so so ditty
She had to get a pimp, she couldn't make it on her
Own

Chorus:
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder
How I keep from goin' under

My brother's doing fast on my mother's t.v.
Says she watches to much, is just not healthy
All my children in the daytime, dallas at night
Can't even see the game or the sugar ray fight
Bill collectors they ring my phone
And scare my wife when I'm not home
Got a bum education, double-digit inflation
Can't take the train to the job, there's a strike
At the station
Me on king kong standin' on my back
Can't stop to turn around, broke my sacroiliac
Midrange, migraine, cancered membrane
Sometimes I think I'm going insane, I swear I might
Hijack a plane!


Chorus:


My son said daddy I don't wanna go to school
Cause the teacher's a jerk, he must think I'm a
Fool
And all the kids smoke reefer, I think it'd be
Cheaper
If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper
I dance to the beat, shuffle my feet
Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps
Cause it's all about money, ain't a damn thing
Funny
You got to have a con in this land of milk and
Honey
They push that girl in front of a train
Took her to a doctor, sowed the arm on again
Stabbed that man, right in his heart
Gave him a transplant before a brand new start
I can't walk through the park, cause it's crazy
After the dark
Keep my hand on the gun, cause they got me on the
Run
I feel like an outlaw, broke my last cast jaw
Hear them say you want some more, livin' on a
Seesaw

Chorus:

A child was born, with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smiling on you but he's frowning too
Cause only God knows what you go through
You grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way
You'll admire all the number book takers
Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers
Driving big cars, spending twenties and tens
And you wanna grow up to be just like them, huh,
Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers and even plan-handlers
You say I'm cool, I'm no fool
But then you wind up dropping out of high school
Now you're unemployed,all null'n' void
Walking around like you're pretty boy floyd
Turned stickup kid, look what you done did
Got set up for a eight year bid
Now your man is took and you're a may tag
Spend the next two years as an undercover fag
Being used and abused, and served like hell
Till one day you was find hung dead in a cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:34 PM

Thanks, but I can't handle words neat. I'll take mine with melody, if you don't mind.

Rap is definitely an art form, and very clever no doubt, but music? I don't think so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM

yes it is music, it is more music than is cheeky girls and all those crappy dance remixes of 80's songs that are out nowadays, with the same keyboard riffs in every son...... tune

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: shepherdlass
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:16 AM

Just a thought - wasn't Subterranean Homesick Blues actually a hybrid of folk, blues and rap before rap really existed?

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: s6k
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:18 AM

this is true!

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Anominis
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:55 AM

yep I am back where is MY message about enjoying rap JERK

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Jack Frost
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

yep I am back where is MY message about enjoying rap JERK

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Jess
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

Hi I love rap music. I love music in every form and I enjoy blues lots to. In the chorus at my school. (and mac' n' cheese commercials, LOL) I have always enjoyed music and love it when I am introduced to a new kind
thanx for starting this shambles its great expresing opinions and great reading others and Terry Allen Hall I would think it better if you didnt speaak of rap that way calling it filth and all and I dont think ANYBODY should automatically assume that all rap music is filth and you should listen to some EMINEM he sings some great songs about how he made it to the top that EVEN MY DAD ENJOYS IT. Thanks for reading

-Jess

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,dodobird
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:05 PM

I have been checking out the neo-science of memetics lately, which argues that culture spreads through thought or idea replicators called memes. This point of view is especially attractive to me because of my maturing appreciation for folk music of all kinds. I decided to google the words meme and rap and I was pulled into an article in the Ohio University African American Studies Black Praxis web pages, entitled "Applying Memetics to the Historical Understanding of the African Diasporan Music Culture of North America."

I found this article to be an example of "meta-rap" of the highest order! Enjoy!

http://cscwww.cats.ohiou.edu/aas/blackpraxis/articles/frank1.html

Applying Memetics to the Historical Understanding of the African Diasporan Music

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,dodobird
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:26 PM

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,dodobird
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:28 PM

the link in my post goes to the second page of the article, my bad...
here is the corrected link:
Applying Memetics to the Historical Understanding of the African Diasporan Music

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 09:14 AM

This is a re-post from the current 'Folk combined with other genres' thread:

To expand this conversation, if roots Hip-Hop is considered part of folk music, then examples of jazz/Hip-Hop fusions should be included in this discussion.

See these comments from BassTalk discussion forum:

"ryan morris 04-10-2001, 08:57 PM
hey, anyone listen to music like this? it is kind of like feel good rap music with some neat bass lines here and there. examples would be:
digable planets
arrested development
jurassic 5
mos def
black star"

-snip-

"winston 04-10-2001, 09:09 PM
Don't forget Spearhead! And if you want to check out some of the roots of jazz/hip-hop fusion be sure to look into Gil-Scott Heron. Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation" also has some fine basswork."

-snip-

"ryan morris 04-11-2001, 10:08 AM
awesome, so you guy do listen to some of this stuff. i am going to be going music shopping today. it's like a weekly thing now. i can't wait to check out some of the suggestions.
some more similar artist would be:The Pharcyde,OutKast(older stuff), DJ Spooky, Dr. Octagon, Blackalicious, Company Flow, Common Latyrx, Black Sheep, The Roots,The Coup ,Lootpack, The Dust Brothers, The Automator, DJ Shadow, Q-Tip FreestyleFellowship, A Tribe Called Quest,Afrika Bambaataa, De La Soul, just to name a few"

-snip-

Click here for my other post in that thread on the subject of

Posts on Jazz/Hip-Hop fusion

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:02 PM

A post in a totally unrelated BS thread mentioned making music by farting and that made me think of Hip-Hop music. [that's supposed to be a joke}.

No really, a post in the thread Gas, WInd, Flatulence
talked about some guy who makes music by pretending to 'let out wind' as we used to call it in New Jersey.

And for some strange reason that made me think of Doug E. Fresh, the human beat box.

Don't recognize the name? Shame on you! The man invented [or at least popularized} a whole new way of making music. Interested?

Well, read on:

"Doug E Fresh and his former tag team partner MC Ricky D (aka Slick Rick) made a big splash in the hip-hop world when they emerged with their party rhymes; Rick with his unique style of speak and Dougie with the "human beatbox." They blew up with "The Show," a jam that remains a timeless hip-hop classic, along with "La Di Da Di" and others. Billed as The World's Greatest Entertainer, Doug E Fresh was just that, and he rocked the party.

Doug E Fresh been in the rap game for a long time. He started way back around 1981, when he was only about 13 years old, doing block parties and basically getting his name out there. "Back then it wasn't about records," Dougie says, "It was about your ability to get up there and perform for the crowd." He used to practice routines with his boys Barry B and Chill Will, who later became members of the Get Fresh Crew. Barry B was the one who actually coined the term "human beatbox" to describe the talent of making music with your mouth that made Dougie famous."

Here's more on
Doug E Fresh

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:24 PM

The song I like best by Slick Rick and Doug E Fresh is
'La Di Da Di.' I think this old school rap is even more creative than their names-which I consider to be real creative.

And yes, that song contains a few X rated words, and a sexist reference or two BUT it has a party flava and some really memorable lines-like:

"La-di-da-di, we like to party.
We don't cause trouble, we don't bother nobody"

-snip-

and:

"..Stepped out the house stopped short, oh no
Went back in I forgot my Kangol
Then I dilly, DALLY, I ran through the ALLEY
I bumped into this homegirl named SALLY from the VALLEY
This was a girl playing hard to get
So I said "What's wrong?" cause she looked upset
She said uh, "It's all because of you
I'm feeling sad and blue
You went away
and now my life is filled with rainy days
I love you so
How much you'll never know
Cause you took your love away from me"

-snip-

and there's also "to the heart tick tock you don't stop
                  to the heart tick tock you don't quit, hit it!

-snip-

Here's the lyrics to this classic old school rap compliments of this website: La Di Da De


"Okay party people in the house...
This is something you never witnessed before...
Yes, it's the incredible Doug E. Fresh...
With his partner, the grand wizard MC, Ricky D
D, and that's me in the place to be.
We goin' to do it for '85, kick it live, allright?
Cuz you know, you're all sick of all these crap rappers
biting their rhymes because of they're back steppers.
But when it comes to me and my man Doug Fresh here,
there is no competition 'cause we are the best, yeah.
But as impress, which we approve
and yeah, we realize that we are on the move,
so listen closely so y'all don't miss
as we go a little something like this, HIT IT!

La-di-da-di...
La-di-da-di...
La-di, da-di!
Yo peep this

La-di-da-di, we like to party
We don't cause trouble, we don't bother nobody
We're, just some men that's on the mic
And when we rock upon the mic we rock the mic RIGHT
For all of y'all, keep y'all in health
Just to see you smile and enjoy yourself
Cause it's cool when you cause a cozy conditioning
Which we create, cause that's our mission
So listen close, to what we say
Because this type of shit happens everyday
I woke up around ten o'clock in the morning
I gave myself a stretch up, a morning yawn and
Went to the bathroom to wash up
Put some soap on my face and my hand upon a cup, said
Mirror mirror on the wall
Who is the top choice of them all
there was a rumble tumble, five minutes it lasted
the mirror said, "You are you conceited bastard!"
Well that true, that why we never had no beef
THen I washed off the soap and brushed the gold teeth
Used oil of olay cause my skin gets pail
and then I grabbed the file for my finger nails
I'm true to the style on my behalf
I put the bubbles in the tub so I could take a bubble bath
Clean, dry, was my, body and hair
I threw on my brand new Gucci underwear
For all the girls I might take home
I got the Johnson's Baby Powder and the Polo Cologne
Fresh dress, like a million bucks,
put on the Bally shoes and the fly green socks.
Stepped out the house stopped short, oh no
Went back in I forgot my Kangol
Then I dilly, DALLY, I ran through the ALLEY
I bumped into this homegirl named SALLY from the VALLEY
This was a girl playing hard to get
So I said "What's wrong?" cause she looked upset
She said uh, "It's all because of you
I'm feeling sad and blue
You went away
and now my life is filled with rainy days
I love you so
How much you'll never know
Cause you took your love away from me"
Now what was I to do
She was crying over me and she was feeling blue
I said, "Don't cry, dry, your eyes
Here comes your mother with those two little guys"
Her mean mother steps and says to me "Hi!"
Hit Sally in the face and deckedvi her in the eye
punched her in the belly, and stepped on her feet
Slammed the child on the hard concrete
The bitch was strong, the kids was gone
Something was wrong I said what was going on?
I tried to break it up I said, stop it, leave her
She said, "If I can't have you she can't either"
She grabbed me closely by my socks
So I broke the hell out like I had the chicken pox
But uh, she gave chase, she caught up quick
She put a finger in the face of MC Rick, and said
"Why don't you give me some play?
And we can go cruising in my old jag
And if you give me that OK
I'll give you all my love today
Ricky Ricky Ricky, can't you see
Somehow your words just hypnotize me
And I just love your jazzy ways
So MC Rick my love is here to stay"
And on and on and on she kept on
The bitch been around before my mother's born
I said, "Cheer up!" I gave her a kiss
I said, "You can't have me I'm too young for you miss"
She said, "No you're not," then she starts crying
I says, "I'm nineteen", she says, "Stop lying!"
I said, "I am -- go ask my mother
And with your wrinkled pussy, I can't be your lover!"
To the heart tick tock you don't stop
To the heart tick tock you don't quit, hit it!

-snip-

I conclude this post with the end quote from that website:

"...don't ever forget, Doug E. Fresh, and MC Ricky D..."

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Azizi
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:32 PM

I should say that I don't approve of the violence in the La Di Da Di rap.

BUT I still stand by my previous post. I like 'La Di Da Di' because of its creative rhyming and its memorable lines.

I also like its beat.

Old school rules!!!

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,alexander
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 10:40 PM

I am ten and kid my age like raap and all that stuff I like jazz and blues. all those haters of both genres blues hating rap fans be proud because helped shape all modern music genres including rap jazz rock pop hip hop even modern country so stop argueing about it im out

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Hookey Wole
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:00 PM

Alex you are proud and loud

10 years old and fiercing up to all the old dead men walking & talking their petrified decomposing drizzle slouch off
to sad dead culture oblivion..

I also believe that seminal legends Al Bowlly & Jessie Matthews
were the genetic foundation that modern cross genre rap and extreme metal were birthed from.

Crikey, you sound so perceptive I'd almost be persuaded you were a 60 year old folkie
masquerading as a pre pubescent child. !!!??

but of course that would never happen here at mudcat .....

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Apr 12 - 09:03 AM

Rap and blues are like first cousins...

My son does rap... I play blues... And it ain't a "verses" thing... WE have actually performed together incorporating the blues and rap into one song... Worked out fine...

B~

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:00 AM

anyone heard the Willis Earl Beal album? It clearly shows that blues and rap sit well together.

Equally, listen to New Kingdom's album Paradise Don't Come Cheap.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 01:19 PM

The problem with rap is who wants to watch some 60-year-old idiot strutting across the stage on his good leg to a drum track? Spare me. It's for kids. It's teeny-bopper shit trying to look bad. It DOES sound bad--I'll agree to that much.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 12 - 07:20 PM

Oh, bull, joez...

You must not have heard much rap... It ain't all about "niggas and bitches"...

My son's rap is story telling... Real stories... And it sounds good...

B~

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:26 AM

plus, blues is not just made by "60-year-old idiots" with bad legs!

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:11 AM

It isn't???

lol...

B~

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:22 AM

How can you compare rap which if performed in English, is English gone totally wrong, with blues?

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 May 12 - 12:24 PM

Both blues and rap are arbitrary labels generally provided by recording companies to market their product. There are many forms of both. Early rap was like blues in that it conveyed the history of the African-American experience. The two are tributaries of the same river.

One hallmark of an expressive song is its specificity in imagery. Both blues and rap serve this purpose. Blues and Rap both have a tendency to glorify the myth of male superiority and bravado. This is an essential element because of the emasculation of the black male in white society. It's an attempt to say "I am somebody".

The blues and rap you hear on the radio is often uncharacteristic of the music found in the "hood" or in the deep south.

Blues evolves as it is exemplified by Charlie Parker.

Rap and Blues finds their way into jazz and as a verbal vehicle of expression of a kind of folk poetry, emanating culturally from the Griots of Africa.   Both Blues and Rap tell the story of Black suppression. For that matter, jazz started that way also from Congo Square in New Orleans through to John Coltrane or Esperanza Spalding.

Both form a firm foundation for the evolution of African-American music. There is no versus here but a remarkable cohesive connection which has enriched the musical culture of America and cultures worldwide.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 May 12 - 01:39 PM

Bobert,

Rap IS about drug, guns, prison and hos. That's ALL it's about. Storytelling is NOT rap. "Evidence" by Dave Young is NOT rap. It has real instruments and the words are about the crimes that Africa itself has committed on black people (and written by Leroi Jones). Gil-Scott Heron was NOT rap. From what I understand, he found rap to be an embarrassment and did not want his name associated with it. Today's rappers are pathetic compared to him. Rap does not tell a story. It's teeny-bopper shit for street kids who don't give a fuck about your fucking stories.

Storytelling is NOT RAP!!!! Please do not degrade the art of storytelling with such a shitheaded comparison. PLEASE get a brain.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 01 May 12 - 04:41 PM

if you listen to, say, Robert Johnson you'll hear a fair bit about drugs, guns, prison and "hos".

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 01 May 12 - 05:55 PM

But blues is not rap. To kids today, hip-hop is not rap, DJ mixes are not rap and techno is not rap. Just because a guy is talking instead of singing doesn't make it rap to rap fans. If he's reciting jazz poetry it is not rap. They see huge differences just like kids today see huge differences between punk, goth, death metal, black metal, thrash, etc. If you try to pass one off as the other, they'll call you a phony or an idiot or both.

So why call what you do rap? Why pigeon-hole it? Nobody respects that. Every artist always says he's doing something different from everyone else. So reject the rap label. Rap is dead.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 01 May 12 - 09:22 PM

Bull, joesz...

My son laid down a rap in front of a bunch of redneck country people that had nothing to do with the stuff you think rap is about... It was entitled "We're the same"... Here's a kid from Portland, Or. and he wrote this song the night before and performed it and guess what???

People (rednecks) loved it...

You need to rethink think this, man... You are usually cool... Not here...

B~

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 12 - 01:54 AM

josepp is not "usually cool" when it comes to talking about music, B'bert. He tends to mindless ranting, not unlike his fellow Michigander, Ted Nugent;-)

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 May 12 - 05:43 AM

Stringsinger got it partly right:

Both blues and rap are arbitrary labels generally provided by recording companies to market their product. There are many forms of both. Early rap was like blues in that it conveyed the history of the African-American experience

The current incarnation of "rap" is very much a promotion label, and is strictly linked to "commercialization."

While rap has been adopted by the African-American culture, the first detailed examples I encountered were from US West Coast Hispanic cultures ca very early 1950s. I suspect a fairly long tradition before my contact with it then.

While I've heard very little "recent Hispanic rap" my impression is that in some places where it remains associated with its origins it remains a very much "less aggressive" form.

There may be some bias due to the circumstances in which I first heard much of it, but within the Hispanic tradition a popular "topic" was "free form (ad lib) recitations of Bible verses/stories," and it appeared to be a well established performance form within some (ghetto?) Hispanic churches.

As with early blues, "if you did it the same twice, you might be accused of losing the spirit;" but of course in variable form you can't publish it and make a profit, so it was exclusively a "live performance" thing in the earlier "free" form, so far as I heard of it.

Calling the "original" form (to the extent I've seen it) "music" is a stretch, but much of the earlier stuff could well be called "poetry." I don't listen to enough of the current commercialization of any of it to say whether much of that has much, if any, really poetic content. What I hear "by accident" doesn't impress me much.

Rap quite probably could reasonably be called a "ghetto tradition" in order to be more inclusive of various origins, but ascribing it's origins to African-American culture is simply WRONG. The HATRED in currently promoted "black rap" may have had its origins in African-American culture, but there's a lot more to the "rap tradition" than that.

Unfortunately, I suspect considerable difficulty in finding much documentation of any true "roots" for the art (regardless of whether or not one wants to generous enough to include the current commercially hyped stuff in that description).

John

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: matt milton
Date: 02 May 12 - 07:01 AM

"So why call what you do rap? Why pigeon-hole it? Nobody respects that. Every artist always says he's doing something different from everyone else. So reject the rap label. Rap is dead."

Well, to be pedantic about it, rapping isn't the music, it's the, er, rapping. Which a rapper does. Hip-Hop is the music traditionally associated with rapping, and was traditionally performed alongside a scratching DJ. These days, it's all up for grabs, with much hip-hop sounding like techno, and a lot of electronica having absorbed hip-hop influences.

A rapper might rap over techno, rock or dubstep. He's still rapping though. He's still a rapper.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 May 12 - 06:12 PM

"Rap" has part of African-American communities since before the "American" got put in there. Rhythmic rhyming and narratives, with a lot of the same floating verses, rhyme pairs, and themes, have been repeated in work chants, toasts, "the dozens", as well as in storytelling, and religious ceremonies have been part of the oral tradition for centuries. Pieces like "The Signifying Monkey" have African origins, and have grown and been changed in the way that folk and traditional material changes. Some people may not be comfortable with some of the things that have come out of the process, but that doesn't change what it is.

Subject: RE: Blues vs Rap
From: Bobert
Date: 02 May 12 - 08:54 PM

Yeah, Stim... Rap certainly has an abundance of African American influence... When you listen to old recording of "the dozens" there is a lot of Rap in it... The entire work chants/field hollers is very much part of rap...

B~