Silver Tassie original melody

Subject: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 18 Nov 25 - 05:13 AM

The Robert Burns song My bonie (sic) Mary/Silver Tassie was printed in Johnson’s Scots Musical Museum in 1788 to a melody by James Oswald called Sweetest Kiss. It has become popular sung to a different melody printed by Ewan MacColl in his book of Scottish songs printed in 1953 which most folkies think is the original tune.
There are only a handful of folk who have recorded the original melody including my arrangement for Nigel Denver in 1968.
My question is does anyone know of an earlier recording, pre 1968, of the song to its original melody or earlier printed sheet music pre MacColl’s 1953?
There are a few titles used..Silver Tassie, A Pint of Wine, Go Bring to me…..
I have asked the expert on Irish music AND Sean O’Casey John Moulden for help.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,ABCD
Date: 19 Nov 25 - 02:46 PM

The set in Johnson's SMM is surely an "earlier sheet music", Mr McLean? As far as I recall, the Pastoral air you mention is actually "The Secret Kiss". I learnt it from this score some thirty years ago, and think it a better match to Burns's words (as well as avoiding the necessary repetition in the more recent setting; same thing as in the "Red, Red Rose" sung to "Low Doun in the Broom" rather than "Major Graham of Inchbrakie"). Good Luck,

An Buachaill Caol Dubh,
Glasgow.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Nov 25 - 03:25 PM

Do you mean literally sheet music Jim, or printed sources generally. Dick in his The Songs of Robert Burns, 1903 prints The Secret Kiss as the melody (quoting SMM as his source).

The notes in that book also have a list of tunes that were considered for it:

"The tune, by James Oswald, is in Universal Harmony, 1745, 108, entitled The stolen Kiss; in the Caledonian Pocket Companion, 1752, iv. 23, The secret Kiss. Burns was not quite satisfied with his choice of a melody, for in September, i793, he suggested to George Thomson that as it precisely suited the measure of the air, Waes my heart that we should sunder, he might set it to this. Thomson did not act on the advice, but printed it to The old highland laddie, which subsequent compilers have adopted. Burns's alternative melody, Waes my heart that we should sunder, is a characteristic tune printed in Original Scotch Tunes, 1700 also in the Orpheus Caledonius, 1725, No. 9."

I had a look on youtube, but early recording are hard to come by, though there is one from 1907? by Archie Anderson (baritone), Gae bring to me a pint o’ wine, though he uses the more common tune. According to Sheena Wellington (quoted on Mainly Norfolk - The Silver Tassie, this originated in the late 19th century.

Mick

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 03:08 AM

Thanks, Mick, I have Dick’s books. Archie Anderson is 1979, I spoke with Sheena Wellington who told me she got the tune from her dad although it’s note for note of the tune printed in MacColl’s collection of 1953.
I have emailedMark-Anthony Turnage who’s listed as Composer for the opera Silver Tassie commissioned by the ENO. He uses MacColl’s version. I don’t think MacColl composed the tune as I found a field recording of a Scottish East cost singer George Inglis Fraser in 1959. He was born in the late 1880s, died 1965, so I think he would have been too old to have learned it from MacColl’s book. Either Sean O’Casey wrote it himself or it’s a corrupt version shaped by oral transmission. Either way it’s not Burns’ intended melody.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,From Jim McLean
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 04:09 AM

Mick…….to summarise, it is MacColl’s printed version of the tune, 1953, which has become the standard leaving folk thinking this was Burns’ intended.
I still haven’t found anything recorded of the original Burns’ (Oswald’s) tune before the 1968 arrangement I did for Nigel Denver.
I’ve spoken to a few performers and they’ve all said they copied Archie Fisher’s version 1970 and Archie would most certainly have MacColl’s songbook.

And Guest.ABC, I took for granted you would understand that earlier sheet music referred to something earlier than MacColl’s printed version. I have Oswald’s Caledonian Pocket Companion Sweetest Kiss which is the basis for Johnson’s Scots Musical Museum version and I agree it a more dynamic tune than the rather bland MacColl’s printed, collected version. But my post is not about the merits or demerits of the two tunes but to establish authenticity.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Reinhard
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 08:20 AM

Archie Anderson is 1979

I didn't know that 78 rpm shellac records were still produced in 1979 ;-)

According to 45cat.com, Rena Records traded from 1908 to 1910, and they date Anderson's record Rena 1348 at June 1910.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 09:48 AM

Reinhard beat me to it. The June 1910 date also appears at

http://www.marks-music-circus.co.uk/[Section_07]=1908-1925=The_Blues/1910/1910=(04)=Releases.htm

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 12:33 PM

Reinhard and Lighter many thanks …that just what I was looking for! The recording is even pre Seán O’Casey’s play. The tune as I suspected is a variant of The Sweetest Kiss by Oswald but not the original. It must have been altered due to oral transmission. Thanks guys…I quoted the wrong date from a well known online site.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 12:55 PM

I’m still looking for an Oswald version pre Nigel Denver 1968.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Nov 25 - 03:09 PM

Here's a cylinder from 1903 Leo Stormont - Gae Bring Tae Me A Pint O Wine

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 02:55 AM

Fantastic, Mick, but it is still the MacColl printed version. I wonder if ithis version was printed in a Victorian Music book. A similar tune change occurred with Braes o Balquhither when the printed version became the norm and Tannahill’s chosen tune The Three Carles o Buchanan was forgotten.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 05:29 AM

That's a promising idea Jim, but I've just looked at the books listed in the Roud index that have music (ignoring SMM and Dick) and they all showed the original tune. (Lyric Gems of Scotland 2 (1856?), Scottish Minstrel (Valuable Selection, c1813), Smith, Scotish Minstrel (1st edn. (1820-24)).

That still leaves the possibilities of sheet music, a popular singer or a very early popular recording.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 11:59 AM

I just thought to have a look om my bookshelves (instead of on my computer) and I have a copy of Kyle's Scottish Lyric Gems published by Joseph Ferrie, Glasgow. There's no copyright date but the publisher's introduction is dated 1880 (and it was given as a present in 1907).

It describes itself as: "A collection of the/songs of Scotland/original and selected/ with/ new and appropriate symphonies and accompaniments/ for the pianoforte/ by/ T.S. Gleadhill".

And this has the modern tune ("Words by Robert Burns, Arranged by T.S. Gleadhill"). Archie Fisher's version is almost identical to the arrangement in the book.

If you like I can post the tune as it apoears there.

Mick

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 01:35 PM

Mick, great, I have all the books you mentioned and, as you say, they all have the original Oswald setting with exception of Kyle’s which has a date of 1880 after the introduction. I have compared to MacColl’s 1953 book and its note for note!
I reckon MacColl got it from here, a Victorian arrangement by T.S.Gleadhill. and Archie would have had MacColl’s book, undoubtedly.
I should have checked my own library before suggesting to you the tune could be Victorian.
I have R.A.Smith’s volumes and it’s in Volume 1 , I don’t think I have Scottish Minstrel (Valuable Selection 1813) but it’s most likely to have the Oswald/Museum setting. I also have George Thomson’s volumes but the tune he used is entirely different in all aspects.
I think we’ve cracked it, Gleadhill arranged it for drawing room performance, no doubt. I’ll go and read the Kyle edition, introduction and all!
Cheers and thanks. Jim.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 02:19 PM

The publisher of Kyle’s Gems (1880) claims copyright and says these arrangements don’t appear in any other book. Victoriana rules!

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Nov 25 - 08:54 PM

I've done the abc for both tunes. I'll check them later today and post them.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 01:28 PM

And here they are, the original tune and the one most currently in use.

Mick

---

X:1
T:My Bonny Mary
T The Silver Tassie
T Gae Bring To Me A Pint O' Wine
C:Robert Burns / James Oswald
B: Johnson: Scots Musical Museum, v3, 1771
L:1/8
M:C
I:linebreak $
K:C
C| C2 E>F G2 (AB)|cB AG ({G}E3) E| D2 E>G ({G}c3) d| ed cB TA2 HG E|$   
w: Go fetch to_ me a_ pint_ o'_ wine, And fill it_ in a sil--ver_ tas-sie, That
C2 E>F G2 (AB)| cB AG E3 G| e3 d c<A G<E| D2 E>G A2 G .|| G|
w: I may_ drink, be--fore_ I_ go, A ser-vice to_ my_ bon-nie_ las-sie. The
c2 (c/d/e/d/) ({d}c3) A| GA cG ({F}E3) E| D2 E>G c3 d|ed cB TA2 HG G|$
w: boat rocks___ at the Pier_ o'_ Leith, Fu' loud the_ wind blaws frae_ the_ Fer-ry, The
c2 (cd/e/) A2 (AB/c/)|G2 f>e ({e}d3) B| c3 B (TA3/G//A// c) E| D2 E>G TA2 G|]
w: ship rides__ by the__ Ber-wick_ Law, And I maun leave___ my bon-nie_ Ma-ry.

X:2
T:Gae Bring To Me A Pint O' Wine
C:Robert Burns Arranged T.S. Gleadhill
B: Kyle's Scottish Lyric Gems, Glasgow, 1880
N: Lyrics Robert Burns
L:1/8
M:3/4
I:linebreak $
K:C
C C> E|:G3 A G> A| c3 d e> f| (e>dc) A G C| E D2 C C> E|$   
w:1.Gae bring to me a pint o' wine, And fill it in__ a sil-ver tas-sie, That I may
w:* * * sounds, the ban-ners fly, The glitt-'ring spears__ are rank-ed rea-dy; The shouts o'
G3 A G> A| c2 z d e c| (fed) c A> G| A c2
w: drink, be-fore I go, A ser-vice to__ my bon-nie las-sie.
w: war are heard a-far, The bat-tle clo---ses deep and bloo-dy.
c e> d| (c>dc) A G E| D2 z E C> E| G3 c d> G|e d2 c e> d|
w: The boat rocks at__ the pier o' Leith, For loud the wind blaws frae the fer-ry, The ship rides
w: It's not the roar--ing o' sea or shore Wad mak me lan-ger wish to tar-ry, Nor shouts o'
(c>dc) A G E| G2 z d e c| (fed) c A> G| A c2 .|| C C> E:||$
w: by__ the Ber-wick Law, And I maun leave__ my bon-nie Ma-ry. 2.The trum-pet
w: war__ that's heard a-far, It's leav-ing thee,__ my bon-nie Ma-ry. 3.Gae bring to
G3 A G> A| c3 d e> f| (e>dc) A G> C| E D2 C C> E|$
w: me a pint o' wine, And fill it in__ a sil-ver tas-sie, That I may
G3 A G> A| c2 z d e c| (fed) c A> G| A c2 |]
w: drink, be-fore I go, A ser-vice to__ my bon-nie las-sie.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 02:50 PM

Good stuff, Mick. By the way, the Scottish Minstrel (valuable selection 1813) does print the Museum setting. So it looks like the Museum setting was printed up to 1880 when Gleadhill wrote the Victorian version which has taken over.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 03:19 PM

Yes Jim, when I checked, all the ones in the Roud index that had music listed used the SMM tune.

I also found a copy of Kyle's Gems on Google books that had no date in the introduction, but which Google dated as 1876, so a bit earlier than my own and your copies. On the title page this copy says "Glasgow: Morison Kyle 108 Queen Street (OppositeRoyal Exchange)" and the Introduction is signed only "Morison Kyle, 108 Queen Street, Glasgow", rather than "The Publisher, Glasgow 1880"

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 03:54 PM

"Kyle's Scottish Lyric Gems," published by "Morison Kyle, 108 Queen Street," is advertised in "The Glasgow Herald" (Apr. 4, 1874) and twice more in the following few weeks.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 23 Nov 25 - 06:22 PM

Thanks Lighter, that moves it back a few more years.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 04:08 AM

Lighter, it would be interesting to read the Introduction by the publisher as he dates his comments 1880 and says the songs don’t appear in any other book.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 04:29 AM

Looking at my 1880 copy there is a note which says that titles marked with an ‘a’ appear for the first time and Gae Bring tae me…..is not marked, hence it obviously appeared in earlier editions.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 04:49 AM

Manchester library has an 1873 copy with 367 pages of music while my 1880 copy has 401.
I have emailed the library for help, to see if Gae Bring tae me is in that edition.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 12:01 PM

The British Library Catalogue has copies of Kyle's Gems dated 1876, 1880, 1885 and 1890, so it was obviously a popular book.

(And in case I didn't make it clear in my earlier post, the google 1876 edition has the song with the modern tune.)

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 24 Nov 25 - 12:52 PM

I've just had a look through Kinsey's authoritative 3 volume edition of The Poems And Songs Of Robert Burns (OUP, 1968). His information about the tunes is the same as that which I quoted from Dick earlier; he has no mention of the later tune.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 04:27 AM

Mick, Morrison Kyle’s two volumes from 1856 showed top lines of music only, no arrangements or mention of TS Gleadhill. Vol ll has the Oswald/MSS tune. As you say the 1876 book has the new tune by Gleadhill and I’m waiting for an answer from Manchester Library which has an 1873 volume.i suspect it will also have Gleadhill’s version which would be the first printed copy unless TS Gleadhill printed some of his work before publishing his arrangements with Kyle, who died in 1879 according to info on the web. This would explain the 1880 edition being published by Joseph Ferrier. I noticed Archie Fisher on his Orfeo LP, 1970, claimed to have written this tune for Silver Tassie. Archie was a good friend and I think it might just have been a ‘clerical’ error.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 04:39 AM

Correction, Gleadhill died 1890…….need to go to Specsavers!

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 06:06 AM

I have found a few song books with Gleadhill’s tune. 120 Scottish Songs published by Faber and Ferrie’s Second Favourite Songs for Piano and Harmonium….. Joseph Ferrie had a hand in publishing these “sing round the piano’ Victorian type songs, and Gleadhill’s Gae Bring tae me… features a lot. Dating them will take a lot of effort …..

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 25 Nov 25 - 09:05 AM

There's some information on Ferrie at West End Addresses:

"The business of a music publisher, established by the well-known Morison Kyle at 108, Queen Street, in 1846, has, since 1880, been carried on by Mr. Joseph Ferrie at 4, Bath Street. During its career the firm has devoted itself very largely to the publication of Scottish melody, and has acquired the enviable distinction of being “the only really Scotch music-seller north of the Border”...

    Among the most famous publications of the house are “Kyle’s Scottish Lyric Gems"...It is one of the best and most comprehensive collections of Scottish song-music extant."

From the url I assume the information came from an 1888 directory of some kind.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 05:38 AM

I found quite a bit of advertising of Joseph Ferrie’s publications, many containing TS Gleadhill’s “Gae bring to me…” Gleadhill was a singer himself and no doubt promoted his own version and as has been shown by early recordings it must have been a firm favourite version which then took over from the original MMS version which may not have been sung or heard so often as Gleadhill’s more publicised version. Hence its popularity today and the mistaken believe it was chosen by Burns. One group, the Sangsters, actually claim to be singing the MMS/ Oswald tune when they’ve really recorded Gleadhill’s melody.

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 12:09 PM

Didn't something similar happen to both "Auld Lang Syne" and "My Luve is Like a Red, Red Rose"?

Subject: RE: Silver Tassie original melody
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 27 Nov 25 - 01:56 PM

Lighter, correct but the tunes chosen were old tunes. The Auld Lang Syne original tune was “recently” rediscovered and sung quite widely. Also Tannahill’s Braes o Balquhither is sung to RA Smith’s arrangement rather than The Three Carles o Buchanan as chosen by Tannahill.
It’s a question of the printed version given more publicity in books, I think that’s what happened to Gleadhill’s Victorian “round the piano” version. But my main point is that folk have been think Gleadhill’s is the tune Burns chose. As I’ve said before I don’t care which tune people use as long as they know what they’re singing. I have discovered, after looking into this, that most people copied Archie’s tune even stating on their CD notes that this WAS Oswald’s Secret Kiss.