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Should registration be required or not?
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Subject: Should registration be required or not? From: katlaughing Date: 03 Feb 00 - 09:56 PM Most legitimate posters, new or old hat, have the courage to stand behind their words, through a well-known nickname or their real name. I do not think they should be the targets of flamers who lack any courage and seem bent on destroying the Mudcat through posting as the various permutations of facetious GUESTs we've seen in the past couple of weeks. Requiring someone to register could do a lot, IMO, to restore our trust and faith in one another as the decent individuals most Mudcatters have proven to be. An added benfit would be to discourage the gutless wonders. Sure I've pissed off some, I am proud to be, katlaughingand,onocassionDitzeeLee |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Sorcha Date: 03 Feb 00 - 10:05 PM Well, since it's you IT thinks is me, and we both know better, this one is funny. I hate to see the Mudcat go private, but it is not that big a deal to have to register a REAL e-mail address with the ADMIN, then he at least, knows who is posting and can control a little more if he wants to. Even I, as 'puter illiterate as I am, have figured out that if I want to post as someone else, all I have to do is delete cookies/temp internet file, post as GUEST*****, re-set my cookie, and I'm Sorcha again. "GUEST" is not the solution, but I don't know what is. How exclusive does the Mudcat want to be? I have read the other thread about exclusivity, and, being a Newbie, certainly don't want to cut out anybody who is seriously interested, but IT is doing that all by IT'S SELF. Sorcha, who is me, and answers to Sorcha |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 03 Feb 00 - 10:12 PM The concept of a registered forum is interesting, because at least those flamers who cause the majority of the problems would be liable to some accountability. Unfortunately, the charm of the Mudcat as a "free forum" where all are welcome would be lost forever. It may however be the only recourse Max has if the anonymous attacks continue, because some of these are so virulent as to effect the entire tone of the Mudcat. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: John in Brisbane Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:23 PM What I'm about to say is not meant to be hurtful, but I don't have the luxury to spend a lot of time here these days. Pardon me therefore if I appear very task focussed - because I am.
I'm a big boy. Let me handle the virulence and disruptions in the best way I know how - I ignore them and I try to not respond to attention seekers at all.
I would prefer if the internal focus of these threads was labelled in such a way that I can choose to selectively view them. Call them BS/OS or even US. If Max gives us the tools to unclutter my Mudcat life I would expect that the well meaning regulars would attempt to respect my right to never see certain thread titles. This thread is one of them.
Thank you for reading. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Amos Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:32 PM The default for someone without a cookie should be a required email address that they enter. If we wanted to be anal about it (and more closed than the Cat would ever want to get, I think) the user who wanted to use his email address only would have to receive a robot-generated password (to confirm that it was really the email address he was getting mail at). Another option would be some tricky Perl thing that parsed his IP number, and showed him as "Visitor from ______(DNS of host or IP number)." Dunno how effective that would be. Or we could force them to page through the whole of "Spaw's Collected Submissions" if they chose not to register, to prove they were able to stand it here!!:>) A |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Sorcha Date: 03 Feb 00 - 11:35 PM OH GODS! Not that! Pulleeezze! I'll register, really I will! |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:43 AM Something that only a LaughCat pure USA Democratic, Pagan, Liberal coule dream up.
Hell NO!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Sorcha Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:47 AM GO FOR IT, GARG! SEND ME A REAL E-MAIL!I DO KNOW HOW TO DELETE AND BLOCK SENDER!! LOVE YA, DARLIN'!*** |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: katlaughing Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:02 AM John, I've sent you a message, too, in case you don't come back to this thread. If you will check the recent MUDCAT IMPROVEMENT thread, you will find that Max posted a protoype of a filter which you can try out. It will show you a Forum sans any thread designated as BS. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:06 AM Look.....go off somewhere into the wilderness,
.......................................... band the birds, brand the cattle, catalogue butterflies, (or as my brother once did, ((for the US govt)) stick flags in buffalo turds and collect them after they have "ripened")
What sort of catnip have you been sniffing to come up with this 1984 nightmare???? |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:09 AM His last month's filter tests have been VERY interesting.
Well, Done MAX.....there is more sophistication to this "washboard & spoon jam" than meets the eye. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:14 AM The BEST way to assure a "hacker challenge" is to broadcast to "the community" that your site is now "secure."
OPEN architecture, code, forums, discussions....is the best way to assure that you will NOT need "healing" in the future.
Forcing others to "heel" is NOT the way
My first grade primer (British) had the text Scat, Scat, little cat, go away and don't come back. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:19 AM Let's do a ratio.
There MUST BE "one upload" of music related content for every "five downloads" of Cat Crap. It is easy, the "FILTER" has been used for over 15 years as a "standard" of net sites.
thatwouldshutuptheKatterLaughingonthemudcat |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Sorcha Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:27 AM Oh, for all the God's sakes, you are SO pathetic. GET A REAL LIFE, why doncha, instead of pretending you are a folkie? |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:28 AM Cram It CLOWN |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:36 AM The original purpose of this forum was for it to be a place for people to post and request lyrics that aren't in the database. If we were to require membership, I think we would add an air of exclusivity to the forum, which would tend to discourage visitors who come here seeking folk music information. Is that what we want to do? I think it make sense to require registration for Mudcat Chat, but not for the forum. This place should remain open to visitors. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:13 AM A few days ago in a thread about "improvements" I suggested that the music and "other" threads be separated (I have always participated in both). I was outvoted by about a thousand to one, and some suggested that doing that would be devisive. My feeling was that it would calm down those who REALLY can't hold their anger in. "No, no, we're adults here", seemed to be the feeling, "we can police ourselves". Well I doubt it. Sometimes a bit of chaos can be funny. Trying to figure out who's posting under different names can be entertaining (it certainly brings out the latent Sherlock Holmes in me). And yes, I'll admit it, I thought at one time that Gargoyle might just have a wicked wit, and if there were less idle chit chat here, he'd go back to being knowledgable and merely unpleasant. I wouldn't bet a plugged nickle on that happening now. Too many people with, I suspect, no history on this forum, have taken his lead, and are having fun with it at EVERYONE'S expense. It's just too distracting. I've always made my e-mail, street address, and phone number easily available here, but I would be HAPPY to have this site become as "registered" as need be to bring back the feeling I had the first eight months I was here. When it comes to the music I live and love, I'd be equally happy to make joining this forum an "effort". I suspect a number of people who's opinions I value would come back. I'm sure I'd be outvoted by the same margin on this issue but I just don't believe in "inclusion at all cost". Rick
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Sorcha Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:16 AM Nope, not by me, and I'm a REAL Newbie! Sorcha, who is not, but might be, kat. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Escamillo Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:21 AM Joe, I came here for some lyrics and enjoyed 7 months of friendship and continuous learning. I would like others to have the same opportunity, so I agree. However, to have the opportunity and make abuse of it, by attacking other members for fun, is not fair. I've seen in this thread somebody suggesting that a member's proposal is unacceptable because he is "USA Democratic, Pagan and Liberal" - this is no mockering, but it IS serious. What can I expect for me ? "Latin SouthAmerican Dark-skinned? "? I suggest to display a summary of common ethical rules for every guest or member to make things clear, and keep the right of admission and permanence in the Café. Un abrazo - Andrés |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:55 AM Thanks Sorcha, if you ARE Kat, can I count on two votes? Hi Andres, I won't ask you about the weather again! The situation (to me) has gotten like the proverbial jam sessions and song circles that have been discussed many times (without serious incident) here. What do you do when the original focus is disintegrating? Well, some move on to other groups, some sit tight and hope for the best, and some make and enforce a few rules. My point was that if rules HAVE to be made to keep this wonderful site less annoying than it's become lately, I'm all for them. I have no qualms whatsoever of being selfish in this case. Sorry to disagree with you Joe, but I guess after seeing what utter chaos can do to the atmosphere, it makes any previous complaints I had about directions, quite unimportant. Civility has become the only issue that I care about right now. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Áine Date: 04 Feb 00 - 06:53 AM I know that I'm late in chiming in on this subject; but, it *was* hockey night last night (Dallas Stars 2 - Phoenix Coyotes 0 = GO STARS!). Anyway, after seeing the level of nastiness and personal attack grow in this forum over the last two years (see Mr. g's comments above for a good example), I have come to agree that registration should be required. I understand how many of us could feel that this smacks of Big Brother/1984 control; however, we are a community, and even the *best* community needs to have rules. It could be, that for a small minority, this requirement would be off-putting and they would not choose to register. On the other hand, this would be their *choice*, and I think this fact should be considered. I belong to only one other forum (who could possibly have time for more??), and it suffered from the same kind of nastiness that has befallen the Mudcat. This forum now requires registration if someone wants to post messages and receive the other benefits of membership; however, it is still available for everyone else to read. I think this would work well with the 'Cat. Folks that did not want to sign up could still take advantage of the forum, and this would probably lead to many of them deciding in the end to join. If the 'Cat did go to a *read only* format for non-members, I think it would actually encourage more people to join us, because without the personal attacks and nastiness, this would be a very attractive (and attracting) forum. So, there ya go. We've got to do something, because we are relatively powerless to do anything to improve our community here as things stand now, and things are just getting worse. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Little Neophyte Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:08 AM I support the concept of registration. Aine's suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. Having a membership for posting with 'read only' format for those of non-member status. I also have changed my previous opinion on the seperation of music threads from other threads. I believe at one time 'Other' threads contained veins of valuable knowledge that would be of interest to those seeking more music content. Now I feel those intermingled music gems within the 'Other' threads are rare. John in Brisbane's ideas of 'tools for selective viewing' would help the group of Mudcatters like John who steadily request for an efficient way to focus their time on the Mudcat. I'm not sure if this would involve the concept of seperate forums or just manditory categorizing of threads. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GeorgeH Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:30 AM Reluctantly, I also agree with the concept of registering in order to post. Although I'd like to see a "song request" route open for those who are not registered, if Max is prepared to moderate such a route. Registering is no big deal, and no big price to pay for participation. Just as not going out of one's way to offend others is no big price to pay. Mudcat IS a 'club'; I see no moral objection to its setting non-excluding rules for membership. Currently there's too much anger and distress being generated to no constructive purpose by those who seem to derive some satisfaction from inflicting hurt on others. G. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:35 AM I'd be happy to register if it didn't require "cookies". Working at various shared machines at work, I don't want to accept cookies on them. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Amos Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:40 AM I would have no objection to a 2-tiered approach using registration and the presence of a cookie as the dividiing factor. There are many sites that do it this way. Personally I registered in the first few minutes, but I'm not hiding anything from anyone. My life is a lot simpler that way, too. A |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,Jon Freeman Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:52 AM One thing that needs to be considered when talking about registration is the number of people "passing through" who sometimes start an interesting thread or make a valid contribtution. These people may not want to register (at least until they get the feel of the place) and may decide to go to more "open" places. The question is: is it worth risking losing a number of good contributions simply because there a few people trying to spoil things for everybody? Also, and I don't know on this one and it is not my problem but the time and effort involved in setting up such a system may be an issue. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:16 AM Just think for a moment what we would loose by registration: Do you think Dick Gaughan would have bothered to register to tell us what he had in mind when writing a certain song? Do you think Eliza Carthy would have registered to tell us how she sings a song? I guess that even some of the now regulars would never had started coming here if the first step would have been that high. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Amos Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:30 AM Actually, the only problem we have is with the occasional slimeball who abuses the guest privelege. I am inclined in the direction of doing it the Mudcat way -- we'll just out-create the suckers. We can handle jerks either through an excess of humour or a little compassion or just unleashing Spaw on them. Maybe we should roll along with the open approach and continue to deal with the deeveiates on a case by case basis. A |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:31 AM I'm on the pavement Thinking about the government
Man in a trenchcoat, badge out, laid off,
LOOK OUT KID!!
It doesn't take a Weatherman to tell which way the wind blows>
Excerpted from Gerry Garcia's forth coming new book Chicken Soup for the New Mellenium |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Blackcat2 Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:33 AM Greetings all, I, for one would probably not have registered for Mudcat if that was the only way to access the discussion. I think that smacks of exclusion - how ever minor. Yes, I've joined up, but only after hanging out for a while and seeing the benefits of the place (many), versus the drawbacks (few). I still don't get it with the distuptive behavior angst. The childish stuff that goes on at Mudcat is just that - childish - all those people who attack others instead of arguing actual points of disagreement, clearly have an "pre-adolescent Inner Child". (I myself have the heart of a 14 year old - it's in a jar on my desk . . . but I digress) These people are looking for attention in the same fashion that a child throwing a temper tantrum in a store is. What do you do when you see that? Do you walk up to the child and try to deal with him/her, or do you just move on? I move on - I have better things to do than waste my time on him/her. Likewise, when I read attacks on my or someone else's character here at Mudcat I ignore it. It's not easy, but that the only response that can ever work. Trying to talk reason to someone who is unreasonable is . . . well, think about it. Anyway, I'd hate to see Mudcat be unavailable to people who drop by to find out a bit of info on a song or two but don't have time in their busy lives to stay around. I think that Mudcat is a resource as well as a community. Thanks for listening and thanks for all who have enriched the past 5 months of my life for sharing their wit, wisdom, etc. here on the Mudcat. pax yall Blackcat2 (named after the Blackcat Cafe - an open-mike coffee house held monthly in Orlando for the past 6 years). |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: annamill Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:36 AM You guys are funny. You seem to think that this is a democrocy. Max decides. Sillies. I like status quo, thank you very much. I'm registered, but I didn't for a while. I needed to see what I was getting into first. I had to interact first. I wanted to meet you guys (virtually speaking) first. Then I fell in love and decided to marry you ;-) and become part of the family. Others should have this chance too. Reading lately shows me that things have seemed to have calmed down a bit. I'm enjoying reading again. Like I said, Mudcat is like New England, if you don't like the weather wait a moment. Leave it alone please. Love, annap |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Áine Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:36 AM Dear Jon and Wolfgang, I agree that requiring registration to post here would keep some people from doing so. However, how many people will leave anyway if we let the kind of flaming that has started recently go on? Just a few of the most recent examples can be found here, here and here. Personally, I can take it on the chin and keep on going. This person's opinion doesn't bother me at all. But, what about the folks that see these type of postings and decide not to contribute in any way, lest they become victims of the same sort of abuse? Yes, we might miss an interesting thread here and there, but whose voice, song and/or music will we not hear because of this type of harrassment? We have to do something, and that something is to require registration with a read-only option for non-registrants. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:39 AM Dearest KatLaughing
As I have suggested in several other of your threads.
Go create the type of site that................. YOU want
................ and requires photo-IDs-attached to e-mails, with courier based dispathes to verify authenticy, ...................................................... and real-time-monitor-attached video cameras to determine facial expressions at the time of each missive's launch
Go create!!!!
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:42 AM It's true!!!
The there is NO such thing as GRAVITY.....
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Áine Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:42 AM Sorry, it's a little too early for html perfection. The examples I was talking about above are here and here and here. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:45 AM OH NO!!!!!!!!
I feel the "FILTERS" activating
Help not so soon.......no the weekend's coming.....no don't.....not yet.....
Damn, caught me again.....see you later after the filters are shut off.
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Jon Freeman Date: 04 Feb 00 - 09:58 AM Annap, I certainly don't believe Mudcat is a democracy and I am well aware that Max is in charge. I do however like to think that he does read the threads and has an interest in the opinions of others where this site is concerned. This thread started for whatever reason but having started, I think it is quite reasonable for folks to state thier own feelings on the subject with out being considered funny. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Sean Belt Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:21 AM Okay. I don't post an awful lot to Mudcat. But I do read frequently and, mostly, enjoy the discussions. Particularly when they're music or performance oriented. My vote on this one is to allow posts from unregistered guests. Registration should be an option and should be encouraged. But, not required. There are far too many good people out there in the world who can join in the exchange of ideas and have a lot to offer, but wouldn't have the inclination, for whatever reason, to register. As far as the obnoxious behaviour displayed by some posters lately, I can only say, "Consider the source." There are jerks all over the world. Unfortunately, Mudcat isn't any more immune to this fact of life than anywhere else. The best way to deal with it is to pretty much ignore these people who post hurtful/hateful messages. Responding to them saps our energy, leads us away from our real purpose, and serves to grant them the attention they so desperately crave. Forgive my long-windedness. Now, who wants to get back to playing? - Sean |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Midchuck Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:25 AM The problem seems to me to be that a website is the wrong medium. I'm on a couple of e-mail listserves that seem to work a lot better. You can't post or receive unless you sign on; but anyone can sign on. But if you continuously post abusive or totally irrelevant material, the listowner can delete you. And make you beg and promise to reform in order to get back on. It is, admittedly, about as democratic as prewar Germany or the late Roman empire. But it works better than Mudcat has of recent (I seemed to join just when things started going to hell. I hope it's only coincidence.) One variant on this is what Bgrass-l does, you have a mailing list that's echoed to a newsgroup. So anyone can read the posts, but you have to be a member to post. Come to think of it, that's about the same situation you'd have here if you required membership to post to the site. So I guess I would chime in on the side of requiring registration. It's repugnant to me in principal (or do I mean princible?) but it appears to be necessary in practice. If a newbie may be forgiven for having an opinion. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: JedMarum Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:27 AM I'll show my ignornace when I start with this, but - when I first started using the Mudcat forum, I was under the impression that you had to register to post. I only registered because I wanted to find out about a song that was not in the DT, and one which I thought someone might know about (and I was right). I did register under a pseudonym, because I didn't know much about internet interpersonal communications in general, nor about Mudcat in particular. So I am not sure that forcing people to register would scare many off. I must admit, I have not seen why the 'flaming' and the bad language is worth worrying about, but I have not seen too much of it, and accept that it can be disturbing to those involved. I am not even sure that categorizing threads is al that important either, since I choose to participate or not, each thread based upon its interest to me, and I look through most based upon their title and length of time on the board. If you are registered, and 'own' your name on the forum (as many of us are/do) then it is clear who is posting. If you are a guest and have a 'temp' handle then all reading your posts understand your situation. That seems to be an adequate protection for identities - but again; I haven't seen much of the bad stuff goin' on here, so maybe a higher level of security is required. The long and short of it is; for me, I am registered, so I have no objection to Mudcat making that some level of requirement for participation. And as far as prefixes for threads; I use them already (I presume) correctly, so again, I'm not bothered about enforcing them or even dividing the forum in multiple categories. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Allan C. Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:33 AM For those who are worried about such things, I submit the following: The age of G.Orwell is here in y2K. Big brother is watching! I just came upon an FBI site where you can check to see if they have a mug shot of you on file. I did the inquiry and sure enough they had an old picture of me from an ID badge I had taken. Better check to see what Pics they have of you. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: JedMarum Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:57 AM LOL - great stuff Allan!! y'all need ta click and see fer yerselves! |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Amos Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:07 AM Damn -- they got my picture too -- but that's not my Mama!! A |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Bugsy Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:20 AM So that's where Bert got my picture from. Onya Bert!!! Cheers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Little Neophyte Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:26 AM Allan, that is a pretty good picture of me but I wish I had known the FBI was taking snap shots of me, I would have shaved. BB |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,Neil Lowe Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:42 AM On the one hand, I can sympathize with those who are the objects of the seemingly misogynistic remarks. Words don't mean squat, however, unless one gives them weight. What someone says about me or to me only affects me if I let it. Screw them. I won't let them have that kind of power over me. I am of like mind on this with Joe Offer, Blackcat2, Jon Freeman, Wolfgang, and Sean Ruprecht-Belt. They seem to have made all (or at least most) of the salient points. And Gargoyle has a point: installing restrictive measures challenges the hackers to break through. Then you're in a game of one-upmanship that never ends, or your measures result in a forum so impenetrable that it destroys the very thing you're trying to maintain. Seems like there's better things to do with one's time. Registration, restrictions, limits, barriers, boundaries.....Christ! I come here to get away from all that crap. (Intercom on, voice tinged with contempt): Identify your last port of entry, space wanderer. (Intercom off)
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer, But it doesn't matter what one thinks about this. The final authority, of course, is Max. Neil Lowe
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Amos Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:55 AM Roll, roll on, you Mudcats roll on!... reckon there's a song there, too! A |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: sophocleese Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:18 PM I like the picture but they goofed and got my daughter instead of me. As for registration I don't think its necessary. The flamings haven't been that many. Before we legislate any type of restriction we should attempt more rigorous self control and ignore all rude posters (side point - posting to say 'don't post' is NOT ignoring the flamers). If you feel the desperate necessity of posting make it a personal message to the victim instead of a public rant. After the initial provocation it takes two, sometimes in Mudcat two dozen, to make an argument. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: annamill Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:31 PM Sorry Jon. I was just being light hearted about the whole thing. You know, being funny. Maybe I should have added a smiley thing. My opinion was also stated and I do believe it was close to yours. Oh, and GG. I thought that was from Dylan's Subterranian(SP?) Homesick Blues. I could be wrong ;-) <-smiley thing. NOI Love, annap |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,Banjoman_CO Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:36 PM We are adults here(well most of thetime) Mudcat is a wonderful place with many wonderful people. We shouold do what any mature adult would do--- Ignore any thread that is from a "Guest". Most everyone here is very open and willing to let people know who they are. This should be true for everyone. Let us know you or leave. Banjoman |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 04 Feb 00 - 12:59 PM I really don't see why registration is a big deal at all... nearly ever single Message Board in cyberspace these days requires some form of it or other... and with that you get a heck of a lot.. most sites will allow a registered user to customise thier settings, change font and colours, have a neat avatar ect... all chrome, I admit, but what on the internet isn't chrome? A registerd user of MudCat gets a persoal Page to swap messages and?? I donno 'cause I've not really looked around that much... Am I missing anything good? Registration can hardly be considered to be exclusionary when everybody can register with a email addy, a user name and a password.... Who can't comeup with that?? If you have a home email account that you don't want to give out, start a hotmail account under an assumed name, or other free internet based email and use that one... ICQmail offers good service, and one doesn't have to put up with the Micro$atan Network... As far as cookies go... I don't know much but I do know that other MB's that I frequent give you the option of 'saving' the info on yer 'puter as a cookie... if you chose to NOT do that, then you can write down all yer info on the back of a business card and you'll have to manually enter your Email, Username, and pass every time you visit... Is that really that big a deal?? That maybe you have to visit one more screen and maybe type 20 or 30 characters? If this is really such a big deal, then maybe Max should give some thought to moving the MB to a differnt service.. one that'll offer all these features that I've mentioned above... I've said it before, if yer really this paranoid that registration for a music MB creeps you out, you must really be one hurtin' unit... Do you not go outside for fear of falling stars? Have you not registerd to have a drivers licence? No credid cards... Big Brother isn't watching now any more than he was 100 years ago... He just doesn't care... |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:18 PM Posting under someone else's handle, however witty the post be otherwise, is a clear breach of etiquette. The "GUEST" mechanism should be adequate to prevent further occurrences. The forum has probably always suffered from some bad-faith posts intended to sow discord or create inconvenience rather than encourage discussion. Is there reason to suspect that there are more such spam-posts now than before ? or to suspect that some of the "song requests" are actually attempts to entrap the mudcat in an act of copyright infringement or something ? Even if there is reason to suspect that the frequency of these inconveniences has increased, we should be cautious of restricting our own freedom in response. And certainly if these annoyances are no worse than before, we shouldn't become suddenly alarmist. T. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Rick Fielding Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:38 PM I surrender. Again. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,SeanM, posting from the great world o' work Date: 04 Feb 00 - 01:39 PM Something else that needs to be remembered is that Max is working on several additions to the 'cat, all of which should make your lives a bit easier on the cat. At one point, he mentioned filters. That will make almost all of this discussion moot. Don't like Guest posts? Use the filters to screen 'em out. Don't like healing threads? Use the filters to screen 'em out. Don't want to listen to anyone else but yourself? Use the filters, and screen EVERYONE out. Registration is a last ditch solution for an open forum. Sadly, I think that the damage done as far as some of our better contributors that have left, can't be undone at this point. To salvage what's left of the community, I feel that we need to remain open... even if it means tolerating our local pack of infants who like nothing more than rolling in their own feces. Max has a handle on it... he's announced that he's working on several ideas that will put the control of content in every individuals' hands. I'm willing to wait it out. M |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: katlaughing Date: 04 Feb 00 - 02:25 PM Takemus/Tbird (sorry I didn't get the diacritical marks in there): please go back to a year ago and give the threads a good scan. It HAS changed, much for the worse and started thus last summer. As for those who are concerned that icons of folkdom will not want to register, it is my understanding that we have already lost several who just don't want to deal with the tone of recent months, mainly the type of postings GUEST et al are perpetrating. Clinton, good points. Sean, I hope you are right. I hope filters that varied will keep the attackers ar bay. Right now, newbies who come here must really wonder. This is not the Mudcat of even a few months ago. Sorry, Rick, I guess we tried. katlaughingworkingforBigBrother&MasteroftheUniverse,honestly! |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 00 - 03:48 PM It hurts me to agree with anything that gangrene or whatever it calls itself posts, but I think that for once it has said something true. Trying to make this place safe against its disciples just won't work. If you are malevolent and obsessive enough you can always find ways of getting in and stirring the shit. It's so easy to get extra email addresses that it wouldn't even be hard for them, and they'd get an extra little kick out of the process, I imagine.
I hate the way things have been going, and worry that we are going to lose really good people we already know, and never get to know other good people.
Anything Max comes up with that improves things is fine by me - but on the whole I favour sitting tight with as few controls as possible, and totally ignoring anything from any anonymous GUEST. As for unpleasant posting from people people signing in as GUEST+ a name, on a case by case basis, ignore rather than respond. If you see some nasty jibe that is meant to hurt someone, send a personal message of support to the intended victim, and maybe to a few other people, suggesting they do the same.
Basic rule is, the people who are trying to screw up this site do not exist.
Remember the nasty stuff is only a tiny fraction of the good stuff. Worse things happen at sea, as they say. This is still a much more friendly and supportive and interesting place than anything I have found elsewhere in the net - including places which are a whole lot more securely regulated. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: katlaughing Date: 04 Feb 00 - 04:00 PM Kevin, I can see your point, but what about someone of goodwill, like the one who started the thread yesterday on the Jan 26th radio program? First impressions are important and the subsequent postings to it are NOT reflective of the community; but how do you tell that to the casual surfer who might become a member but for their first impression of something like that thread? |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:36 PM Kat - that's a difficult one. In a sense, even if you put in a post saying "don't worry about this garbage, the Mudcat really isn't like that" you are providing the garbage spreader with the agttention it's after. And of course you can't send a personal message to someone who isn't registered.
If the site was registered only, I suppose it would be possible in this kind of situation to send a personal message and hold to a policy of refusing to pay any attention to the wreckers, and that is an argument for registration only.
But the registration wouldn't keep them out, and wouldn't stop them stirring things up in ways which might be just as harmful, and harder to spot.
My feeling is still that the best way is to refuse to give them the satisfaction of feeling they've turned things upside down.
And when it comes to stuff like the example you mentioned, play it by ear, but in a way which as far as possible addresses the new friend rather than responds to the old stirrer.
It's a drag, but we've got to keep it in proportion. Most of the Mudcat is going along well. Most of the rubbish is being ignored by most people. I think the best comment on it all was given in this song by Tom Holt that Jeri loaded on a thread a little way back, which I've stuck on my website so I can find it any time I want. Like now. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 00 - 08:40 PM That blue clicky thing (actually purple) wasn't quite right. Here's a better one, I hope: Newsgroup Personality |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,Gaughan Date: 04 Feb 00 - 10:37 PM Just like to make a brief apology - I posted a message here the other day and left it unsigned and, in view of all the discussion about anonymous trollers, I regret that. I'm an old Usenet head and haven't quite got my head round these new-fangled Web-based forums (fora?) For what it's worth, what I see happening here is something I've seen many times before; a community gets established and in comes some troll firing off garbage all over the place. Some innocent souls engage the troll and the temperature soars. Regulars leave and the rest are left scratching their heads. As some have pointed out, restrictions are seen by trouble-makers as a challenge. Ultimately, the *only* effective way of dealing with trolls is to ignore them. It is all basically just a variation on attention-seeking behaviour and without that attention they die in the silence. Don't let some infant with too much time on their hands get the better of you. Incidentally, the reason I am not a member is that I don't use cookies. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Escamillo Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:14 PM As many of you may have noticed, the net is a dense forest of stupidity. I've visited many places, stayed for a while, read other's messages and left as soon as I saw those symptoms. The Mudcat was one of the few exceptions, so I stayed and enjoyed and learnt. I wonder how long would I stayed if I had seen the kind of messages that we have seen here in the last month or two. 10 minutes? an hour ? I would say "oh, just another apparently good place plagued by flamers ! -no, thanks." And I may have had very little (as I have) or very much to contribute. Then, suggestion: 1) Display a set of rules at the entrance door. 2) Allow guests read everything, as it is now. 3) Allow guests to fill a form with ONE music request at a time, and a short comment. 4) Encourage guests to register and then allow them full rights to start threads. 5) Let the cookie be an option. Those members without a cookie would have to enter a password, it's simple.
I don't know wether this is technically possible or not. Being a programmer/analyst, if I can help in any way, I'm at your orders. Or you prefer I sing ?? :))
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Áine Date: 04 Feb 00 - 11:18 PM Brilliant suggestions, Andrés. I hope Max is listening. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Feb 00 - 12:11 AM Ahh Dick, thanks for the feedback. If you're still around, Heather Upfield in Edinburgh says hello. I wish it were simpler here. One problem for me is that by getting to know about 30 Mudcatters fairly well, two things happened. Number one: I would easily get protective when someone I liked was attacked. I (and others) would quickly respond in kind to the nasty one, knowing full well that would only encourage them. Number two: I've become increasingly open about my personal beliefs, joys, sorrows and idiocyncracies. I simply found a community that interested me for the most part. Not something that I'd found before in the mainstream world. It's not like chatting to folks who share your hobby, ie: baseball, Shakespeare, stock trading etc. It's the folk music "thing". It's a "lifestyle" and this is the only community of it's kind that I can visit without traipsing across several countries (which I'm trying to cut down on). I've invested heavily in this community, and even though I feel it's become much too broad (and reflects that mainstream, that doesn't really interest me) it's difficult to leave..but getting harder to stay. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST,DeeAnn Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:18 AM For what it's worth, I'm a registered 'newbie' who has only posted one time but visited often. Each time I've entered Mudcat I've been thoroughly discouraged to participate in any way, due to the nature and severity of some of the postings. I come looking for lyrics, music, information and a little comraderie, but I keep backing out quietly and asking myself if I really want to subject myself to such abuse. The answer is always no! So once again I leave in disappointment, hoping the next time I decide to visit things will be better. DeeAnn Lurking since October 1999 |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Escamillo Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:54 AM Rick, DeeAnn, and all: there's an argentine (modern) song that says: Porque me duele si me quedo ---- 'Cause it hurts if I stay Pero me muero si me voy ---- But I die if I leave Por todo, y a pesar de todo ---- For all and despite of all Mi amor, yo quiero vivir en vos. ---- My love, I wish to live in you. (The author makes reference to our country) Un abrazo - Andrés
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Jeri Date: 05 Feb 00 - 09:03 AM Regarding the question in the title, no. The problem with anonymous flamers isn't the flamer, obnoxious posts is easy to ignore. They're personal attacks, and I can see no motive/reward for someone posting them than to provoke people to come to the defense of the insulted individual, thereby disrupting conversation. Individual idiots are not a problem. The extreme nastiness happens when we let them change and control our collective "mood," and this has happened. I have pulled back quite a bit from Mudcat because of it. We quit listening to the words in a post and react to the fact that it's "anon." Where otherwise, we would ask "what did you mean," we knee-jerk flame anonymous posters. When I signed on in May, I don't recall this happening, but I may have just missed it. It seems people see anyone who doesn't sign their name as the enemy. For my part, I will read and try to understand the words they write. I do think that some mandatory name, (they could type in "XYZ" for all I care) even for cookieless anons would be a good idea, so we know who to refer to, instead of "well, the second anon said..." |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Feb 00 - 01:50 PM I didn't read all of the replies to this but isn't there a way to just identify the non-registered inputters so those of us who don't want to bother with unregistered inputs can flip past them? Is that what a posting labeled GUEST means? It concerns me that so many people are spending so much time worrying over this when they could be listening to or playing or learning or sharing music. Myself included! Why am I spewing my thoughts today instead of cranking up the old autoharp or improving my note-reading? I have about a thousand dollars worth of songs I've never played, gathering dust on my bookshelf! I could be learning MIDI and hearing some of those songs right in this site instead of reading them! I this happens for the same reason we mere humans do a lot of things-- we get lonely and we look for like-minded people to be with, and sometimes we get carried away in that... if we were in person, though, we wouldn't do it so extensively. Someone would get sick of it and start a new tune, and we'd remember why we came. Some of this is just part of the new addiction to surfing that is carrying a lot of good time down the drain. It doesn't have to be porn to be a damaging addiction. Here's a suggestion, I am going to go try it nowmyself-- I'm going to log off this addicting machine and addicting conversation, and go put a CD on, and next time I log on I'll try to remember if the music affected how I feel about the issues raised in this thread and others like it that I skimmed through today. And I bet that the lyric someone sent me for Tubas in the Moonlight will stay with me longer than this side issue. Mudcat does not have to choose to endorse its members and users and abusers dwelling on difficult-to-solve material. Members who care about the site's effect on people can affect people by just redirecting all of us when necessary to the better things in life such as the mucivc that brought us here. let's help each other do that instead of staring into our organizational navel longer than the size of it would support! I think what I am saying is, take two tunes and call me in the morning. Speaking of which, I don't have sound on this computer yet at all. Does the site play tunes while you're visiting it, automatically? If not, maybe that would be a simple way to lift us all above the level of these little problems. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Feb 00 - 02:27 PM Welcome home Praise...I like you already. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Feb 00 - 04:37 PM Thanks, and I got a nice nap in too. Off to play for Sat nite service at church with electric autoharp! |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Linda Kelly Date: 05 Feb 00 - 04:57 PM I think we all do too much self analysis -it's a great site, don't respond to the wise guys and let it flow guys-let it flow! |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 00 - 10:18 PM Takemus/Tbird please go back to a year ago and give the threads a good scan. It HAS changed And as you travel back, back, back, in time... you find that a laughing cat - with only a monotonous-bagpipe-drone-of-discontent,..... a cat spurned by educators for her lack-of-empathy and therefore seeking to reconcile the misbalance-of-the-cosmos with a mack of healing
A cat severely lacking in most musical and search-engine and self-esteem-skills has been....closely associated with the ......NEW
MudCat Social Consciencnous |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Feb 00 - 01:49 AM Gaughan, I understand your well-made points regarding the flash-in-the-pan trolls who may drop in, fire off a flame, and leave if ignored. The primary problem in the forum here is, and has been, an individual who has long participated in the Mudcat, and with whom most of us are familiar. His jibes and personal attacks in support of his own agenda for the Mudcat have become more and more vitriolic, and they increase when he feels he has any support. As a result, posters have lost a lot of the open and straight-forward feeling that characterized this forum not too long ago. Many of us can "take it on the chin" and go on with the battle, but few come here looking for a fight. When I scan the threads, I see a lot of song, music and instrument-related threads. I don't see much of the pure magic of genuine thought, humor and creativity that was amazingly typical of this forum, though. Those things require risk taking, and a tolerant environment that has been steadily eroding. Perhaps some welcome this change with open arms ... but even they must find the tactics used to achieve it somewhat degrading. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Escamillo Date: 07 Feb 00 - 02:29 AM LoneSome, a lot of those "pure musical" threads, many of them trivial, and many of them answered but never continued, not even with a simple "thank you", give me the impression that their only purpose is to fill the list and push down all others. I don't know who writes them, but he/she seems to be willing to end up alone in the Mudcat, perhaps answering his own musical requests. Besides, they overlook the fact that among musical people, all matters, even those called BS, (as in any gathering of musicians) drive us sooner or later to musical matters and to a lot of learning and enjoying. I hope if they love music, they will realize this and cease fire. Un abrazo - Andrés |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Feb 00 - 06:35 AM A successful thread is not defined by its length (steady Bert).
For just one post such as an anouncement, is all that is required.
One question and one answer is also all that it takes sometimes.
The best ones for me are the ones where everyone feels they can and are welcome to contribute.
I do take the second point though and we should all recognise that this place will continue to change and that a 'young upstart' may not see, that the Emperor is indeed not wearing the finest clothes. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Feb 00 - 06:45 AM Well you know what I was trying to say. Please take out the 'not' in the last sentence. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: JedMarum Date: 07 Feb 00 - 08:48 AM maybe a simple, 'ignore this post' button would be helpful |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Mbo Date: 07 Feb 00 - 10:37 AM Oh my God was that REALLY Dick Gaughan?! I love him! And he came over and graced our little website? I feel so honored! When will he come back? I'd like to tell him how much I like his music! I can't believe what famous company I'm in! MUDCAT RULES! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: MMario Date: 07 Feb 00 - 10:44 AM Would someone please peel Mbo off the ceiling? |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 07 Feb 00 - 11:37 AM I don't think registration should be required...I tend to skip over the "controversial" stuff that has especially been causing the problem as of late... I like the fact that when I go back to New York from California, I can access Mudcat via my sister's computer (or any computer, for that matter, to see what's been happening). The Guest feature is a good new addition... Like with TV channel surfing, if you don't like the particular thread, skip over it! Glad to be a Mudcatter! Mary |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 00 - 08:30 PM i think that gargoyle caused the mudcat crash cause he was talking about that type of stuff with the filters and things so we should register him off and the nazi guy too |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: wysiwyg Date: 08 Feb 00 - 12:09 AM I have a new plan. I'm going to write nice things to crabby people just for fun and because I can. I can even use this plan to learn new songs-- perhaps if I use the DT as my source for nice things, I can soothe some savage something-or-other. I think on my worst days I would melt completely if someone sang me just about any song in the DT library instead of engaging with me in whatever snit I'm trying to start! Sometimes my husband wanders into the kitchen when I'm throwing pans and muttering vile things and drowns me out with some lovely violin melody he's been practicing that I don't know he's learned. A violin in a tiled kitchen makes a lot of noise! What do you think? We attack at dawn.
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: The Shambles Date: 08 Feb 00 - 06:03 AM There some more thoughts on the subject of LYR REQ/ADD threads. here LYR ADD/REQ |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 00 - 04:48 AM More of your thoughts you mean. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:16 AM Actually, 4:48 AM Guest, you might note from the length of the replies in both threads and the variety of thoughts expressed that Shambles has some company in thinking about these things. We would welcome your thoughts too, and I think most of us visit the Mudcat Cafe to visit with each other, share a few tunes, maybe see what a friend thinks about current events, maybe vent some recent or old hurt with someone who understands. But we don't generally come expecting people to walk past our "table" and without any preamble just fire off a shot to our soft and tender parts. It's true that sometimes a fight starts over someone's poorly expressed passion but it isn't often nasty. I'm a new habitue' and it looks to me like a place where people try to keep it safe enough for everyone to be able to risk their own discomfort. It isn't PC, but it is generally not a place people visit to do a drive-by snooting. You might like visiting a place like that. And sometimes we may mudwrestle in here but it is considered appropriate to introduce ourselves before the wrestling begins. I really hope you'll join us. |
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Subject: RE: Should registration be required or not? From: Blackcat2 Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:33 AM Hi all please, everyone ignore "drive-by snootings" especially by identity free entities - paying attention only encourages them. pax yall Blackcat2 |
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