Help: Playing through Back Pain

Subject: Playing through Back Pain
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 08:28 AM

Standing for a long time with a 20 pound banjo or guitar glued to the front of you can be a prescription for back pain. The never ending lowback pain I get from standing is lately overshadowed by back pain across the midline of the back. In that space you can't reach from top or bottom on the right side.

Short of playing sitting down, are there solutions to this problem? Different straps? Or movements to ease the pain?

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 09:03 AM

I play autoharp with chronic shoulder and elbow and wrist tendonitis. Will have some thoughts to share wsith you later tonight or early tomorrow. You can solve this!

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:23 AM

As well as tendonitis I have suffered from quite a lot of back pain, probably aggravated by a lot of gigging plus a sedentary job and not enough exercise.

In my case I got a lot of relief from regular acupressure massage. My practicioner also lent me a book on the Alexander technique and some of the exercises therin were also beneficial.

Regards,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:38 AM

Oh, mcmoo, I read too fast and thought you got hurt from GIGGLING, now I am risking injury!!! I hope others with these problems will join in, I bet we can all learn a lot.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:43 AM

Dear Praise,

Now getting a pain from giggling I wouldn't mind at all!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:48 AM

You can actually if your stomach muscles are not in shape! And one day I laughed so hard I felt my facial muscles crack. Have't been the same since. But it's hard to believe this could qualify me under the Americans with Disabilities Act, even tho I am no longer able to do many of the rigid and unthinking things the frozen mask I had worn seemd to like to do.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:49 AM

Nearly all the banjo players I know play sitting down, what's wrong with it? Esp if you are in pain? Some even carry their own gig chairs in case there aren't any available. I like Ibuprophen.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:53 AM

Hi Sorcha,

What sort of banjo music do Ibuprophen play?

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 10:59 AM

Maybe, "I got pain, I got pain,ma banjo is a pain"....... Iffin ya put the little red pills inside the banjo, maybe it wouldn't be in pain?

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Midchuck
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 11:33 AM

I have an OM and a dreadnaught. The OM seems to cause a lot less discomfort to play standing than the dread does; I think because it's thinner and I don't bend my back as much, leaning over it to see what I'm doing. Of course, a banjo is thinner yet, so by that logic it should cause the least discomfort, but:

A banjo is a lot heavier, and

It's entirely logical that God should punish anyone who plays a banjo, anyway He can.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 11:50 AM

If you have an open back banjo all those little bolts can give you quite a front pain too.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: JamesJim
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 12:59 PM

Don't want to interject a "downer" here Don, but I have had two back surgeries (lower back) and continue to have problems (no more sciatica pain though). Mid-back pain can be a sign of other things, even though it may feel like it's muscular or realted to a disk problem. By all means, go have it checked out - don't just try home remedies.

Back 30 years ago, I had the same mid-back pain. Actually, it turned out that my job (I was an accountant at the time - please no "giggling")was a big part of my problem - bending over a desk 8 to 10 hours a day. I could certainly see how a 20 lb. banjo, played for any length of time, would cause your back to hurt. It's actually pulling on your neck and causing you to bend forward. The proper back brace might relieve that tension.

Sometimes tense muscles just need stretching. Without realizing it, you are tensing up to hold that banjo. A good doctor can help you understand the right exercises to do and they probably need to be done on a daily basis. In the meantime, most MDs will prescribe an anti-inflamatory to help relieve the pain (ibuprofen/over the counter might help).

A chiropractor helped me eliminate my mid-back problem and I haven't had it sense. However, before I went to the Chiropractor, I saw my family doctor and had him give me a good check up. It doesn't hurt to be safe (rather than sorry). Jim

PS Sounds like you have your resonator on your banjo. Might help if you eliminated that, at least for awhile.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 01:41 PM

Good one JamesJim!

As far as exercise goes, mcmoo hit it dead on... get up and get some... Probably the best form of ecercise to start with besides walking, is swimming... But if yer like me and not a strong swimmer, stay out of the deep end!! LOL!!

Swimming is a great, full body exercise, 0 impact ( unless yer not careful what direction yer swimming in) and it's very slimming...

But has been stated before, ask yer doctor first... If it's from the standing rather than the banjo, maybe shoes with better support is what ya need...

Hope ya ditch this pain!!

;-)

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Ma-K
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 02:17 PM

Swiming is great but my Dr. said swim on your back the other way can cause more problems in lower back. He said we curve our back when we swim the crawl..I have been the op.route nnooo fun.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Margo
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 02:32 PM

Don, I have just started a program to help me with my back pain. Mine (I think) is from hefting around the kids. I've stopped doing that, but the pain remains. I am seeing a Physical Therapist who has prescribed some exercises for me to do daily. They are specifically meant to strengthen the muscles that support the lower back. I am also doing 30 min. a day on the treadmill. The therapist told me to give the exercises SIX WEEKS before seeing results!! But I'm sticking with them, so I can let you know how I do.

By the way, I initially went to my doctor who gave me much the same exercises, but I didn't do them. The whole thing was too daunting for me. I asked him to prescribe physical therapy, which he did. At first when the physical therapist prescribed the exercises, I was disappointed, because I thought I might get some massage or something. BUT, having him show me exactly what to do and why I am doing it was a tremendous help! I recommend getting help from a phys. therapist or someone who can really show you the exercises. I'll let you know how I do six weeks down the road!

Margo

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Magpie
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 03:03 PM

Don

My advice is to see a chiropractor. In my opinion, a general practitioner doesn't really have a clue about backs, apart from handing out prescription for painkillers that won't solve the problem.

A good chiropractor will take x-rays, and give you a thorough check-up. He will ask you to show him how you stand when you play, how you sit when you work and when you're at home relaxing. This will help him figure out what's causing your pain, and how to avoid it in the future. He will also loosen any locked disks, and he will help you work out an exersice plan to strengthen your back, make it more flexible and less susceptible to pain and injury.

It takes a bit of time, and it costs a bit of money (at least it does here in Norway) but it's worth it! You have to live with your back for the rest of your life, why not make sure it lasts?!

Magpie

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 03:13 PM

Don, although you probably have problems just from stain/weight/position and *ahem* old age......Like JamesJim I too had a couple of low back surgeries and those problems for me (luckily) are passed...sorry JJ.

But ANYONE experiencing mid-back pain needs to see a doctor...NOW! There are any number of things which can bring on the pain and I as you remember had one of those last Spring. This isn't a "scare" thing Don...You are my friend and I value you and the friendship we've made here. My problems started as the same mid-back pain you describe. Ya' might want to just have it checked to be sure its just the typical thing and nothing untoward.

I hesitated to post this because it seems like I"m trying to scare somebody or something. I'm not....Most back pain is from common things, but if it isn't, you need to know right away.

Pat

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 03:14 PM

The Alexandeer Technique seems to have a lot of street cred among folkies.

At Sidmouth a couple of years ago fiddler Tom McConville was programmed to run a one-off workshop abbout the Alexander Technique - he'd expected half a dozen or so people, and around 70 turned up. So he showed us how to lie down with a fiddle case as a neck rest, which is very good advice.

Most musical instruments involve putting your body in inanatural positions, which hurts in time. Fiddlers get it worst probably.

I think the best advice is probably to do some sensible healthy exercise as well as playing music. I've never managed to do that though. So I sit whenever I can

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 03:36 PM

Don, I am well aware of the weight of some banjos and I think that can prove to get uncomfortable for many people after a while.

As far as I can gather, you have been playing for quite a while and the pain has got worse. Perhaps it is just "fair wear and tear" on the body and maybe somebody with medical knowledge can help you but in the meanwhile at least, do yourself a favour - sit down to play.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: BlueJay
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 04:40 PM

DonMeixner: As a long-time back pain sufferer, I empathize. Perhaps an act where you sit at times, stand at times, and stand sideways twisting toward the audience could help. But really, most people need exercises such as described on this thread. Some folks lean them through a doctor, or chiropracter, or physical therapist. I personally have a fitness trainer. I'm not rich, but the money is well worth it if you see results. My trainer is one-in-a million, and has shown me how many doctors, Physical therapists, and especially gym "trainers" have absolutely no idea what's going on. The proper exercises, PRECEDED by warming up and STRETCHING, and especially proper hydration will alleviate many cases of back pain, which are very often due to poor muscle tone rather than an actual spinal problem. Fitness training will help you in all areas of life, but be cautious. My experience has been that many "trainers", especially at franchises, move WAY too fast, pushing for bulk or weight loss and ignoring the CRITICAL elements of warming up and stretching. My trainer tells me that if I do nothing at the gym but stretching, I'm better off than someone who comes in and power-lifts 300 lbs. with no warm up. My trainer has solved my back pain, as well as my chronic left knee. I went to him because I used to have to take Naprosyn constantly just to be able to walk and do my job, (RN); now, I don't take NSAIDS of any type, and my back and knee problems have for the most part disappeared from conscious thought. If you are ever in Southern Colorado, I can introduce you to a true genius. I doubt if there are very many like Sean McCarver, and we're planning a book. Certainly see your physician to rule out major physical problems. Maybe you'll get some Valium, the best muscle relaxant around. Best wishes, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 05:29 PM

Another opinion...
Most logical: Sit down
Most bizarre: Can you do something like backpack straps - wide and padded - that will evenly distribute the weight? All you have to do is figure out how to attach them to the banjo, but that shouldn't be too hard.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Allan C.
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 05:51 PM

I strongly recommend looking into getting a big, wide custom designed strap from our friend and fellow Mudcatter, Bill Sables. You might not prevent the back pain, but you'll look totally cool all the while!

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 06:22 PM

DonMeixner-- My experience has been that if you pay close attention to what your body is telling you, and address that to the point of feeling like a spoiled baby, it will improve. Most of us seem to have a problem with "bothering" to take good care of ourselves, and in a situation like this you need to.

In my case this means that I know ahead of time that certain things are going to aggravate the chronic stuff. (Tendonitis and screaming nerve pathways once the tendons swell and start pinching the nerves.) So I do them anyway, but I don't wait for it to hurt before I start icing it, and I don't let up on the anti-inflammatories as soon as it feels better, either. Also I find occasionally switching anti-inflams worked best for me-- I think my body would get used to one and it wouldn't work for awhile. Orudis and Aleve seemed to work well, one for one occurrence and the other for the next. I take the max dose allowed for the first dose and start the ice, as soon as I stop playing.

I have noticed that this treatment has really cut down the amount of time it takes to recover from each one-- it seems I am helping it avoid new re-injury trauma by staying on top of it.

Some problems also seem to disappear while I am playing and then come back much worse later. This would be not only from the endorphins of the music, but because at least with tendonitis, exercising the tendon seems to temporarily numb it till you stop and then whoa nellie. So I go by what experience tells me will be the likely result, and pace myself accordingly.

I think that all of the ideas contributed give a picture of how much people cared to solve the problem when they had it and the support available to each of us from fellow musicians. You'll need to see a doctor and listen to your body to pick the ideas that will work best for you. All we can relly do is describe that the problem was solvable for us and encourage you to do the same. And it's worth paying attention to--

There is this one famous jazz pianist who fried himself so completely (by overplaying, playing without regard for ergonomics, and not taking care of himself) that now he can only play for 2-3 minutes at a time and then hours of immersion in ice, months of pain til it subsides... and can only do this a few times a year. Music for him has become almost completely a mental thing. He records in one-minute batches. (Me, I would have switched to something that doesn't hurt so much to play, and founda way to get the music on paper so someone else could play and I could direct and produce.) I had thought I might be a hammered dulcimer player but can't take the hammer action, so I autoharp. It took me 3 years to figure out how to position me and my autoharp to be able to play it without incapacitating pain.

I think the main thing is that you have to find out what is wrong and address that very intentionally, and you also have to be creative about how you make music so it remains a joyful thing. That may mean making big changes or little ones. But I know that you don't ever have to give up music. One of our band members fears this with bad rheumatoid arthritis. I say, if the music is in you, it will always find a way out. Always.

Spaw, those of us who didn't know you when the events you refer to transpired, may be completely confused by your comments. I am mystified completely. Thanks for not trying to scare anyone but can you clarify enough that I can take heed?

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: GUEST,Seamus Kennedy
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 07:11 PM

Don, I suffer back pain meself. Worse at some times of the year than at others. Years ago my chiropractor told me to use a little footstool about 5" high, and to stand with one foot on it when I play. Then shift feet after a while. When my pain is bad, I sit on a stool. Also you can get a crossover backstrap from Elderly instruments - they're on the Web- and I don't know how to do a blue clicky thing, that distibutes the weight of the axe more evenly. And get the other lazy buggers in the band to do their fair share of lifting the equipment! All the best, hope to see you at a fest somewhere this year. Seamus

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Hummingbird
Date: 09 Feb 00 - 07:53 PM

I work for a physical therapist. If you go see one, bring your instrument. They can help you with position, and strengthening exercises for your abdomen, which supports your back, alot of people don't realize this. Good luck to you!!

Hummer

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 00 - 12:20 AM

Don, are you checking these out?

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: rollingcrone0526
Date: 10 Feb 00 - 04:16 AM

Well, dear ones, I was really interested in this topic because I've had back pain for years, too -- but in January rolled my car on black ice and crushed a vertebra in my lumbar region and now am unable to play guitar (can't hold onto it because the back brace gets in the way) or piano for long (hurts to sit). I take good old PERCOSET for the pain, but this is not a solution! It's just 'til I'm healed up. I don't mind being goofy but I hate the loss of cognitive function, ie, drug-induced stupidity. I believe that exercise really is the best thing long-term. I'm sorry that there are so many aching backs out there, no matter what they say about misery loving company.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: GUEST,Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Feb 00 - 04:12 PM

Don, I forgot. If all else fails have Gargoyle start a healing thread for you. All the best. Seamus

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Bert
Date: 11 Feb 00 - 11:32 AM

As an EX back pain sufferer I find that I have to pay attention to posture at all times. By following these few rules I have not had any serious back pain for years.

1: Sitting, Make sure that the small of your back is supported. I used to carry a small cushion that I used when driving, but have not needed it for years.
2: Exercise, I find that walking is enough, just make sure that you pull your shoulders back.
3: Lifting and bending over, NEVER bend your back, always bend your knees and squat down to pick something up. It takes some conscious practice to do this. Forget - and regret!
4: Bed, don't ever sleep on a sagging mattress. If your visiting somewhere and have no choice - sleep on the floor.
5: Standing, don't stand for too long, and stand straight.
6: Medication, If you need medication then you need to be flat on your back resting. DON'T take pain medication and carry on working.

Well that's for physical back pain. Sometimes, during or after a performance I occasionally get 'tension' back pain. You can tell the difference, if the pain is caused by tension then you can sit down quietly and relax and it will go away.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Crowhugger
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:59 PM

Don,

Like a few others here, I've had a couple of back surgeries. (Who knew when I joined there'd be this sorta thread?!)

So far I've learned that:

1. as someone mentioned, it does pay to take your instruments to your medi-types -- my chiropractor observed that I tended to lean forward while playing banjo. It was almost completely caused by watching my left hand, so I started practising with my eyes closed. No one was home, lucky people. Lucky me, banjo posture is improving.

2. there are physiotherapists specializing in musicians' injuries. I heard of one at Chedoke-McMaster in Hamilton Ontario, but never went there.

3. persons of a more disciplined persuasion than I may benefit from prescribed exercises. Me, if it ain't fun it won't get done! So I bought a pair of inline skates a kuppla years ago...great fun. Last year I got ice skates for the first time in nearly 30 years.

4. when standing, do you lock your knees? I'm better off if I can remember to keep them a tiny bit bent. Best way for me is to move to the music, y'know, step or sway etc.

5. sometimes I lie down on my back for a minute or two with a small stuffed toy or foam ball between my shoulder blades. Any longer than that and a whole new spasm sets up.

All this experience is, of course, to be ignored until the healer of your choice has ruled out icky medical stuff and diagnosed a sedentary life as the source of your back pain.

Good luck!

I'm new and I love this cafe.

C.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Crowhugger
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 05:59 PM

Don,

Like a few others here, I've had a couple of back surgeries. (Who knew when I joined there'd be this sorta thread?!)

So far I've learned that:

1. as someone mentioned, it does pay to take your instruments to your medi-types -- my chiropractor observed that I tended to lean forward while playing banjo. It was almost completely caused by watching my left hand, so I started practising with my eyes closed. No one was home, lucky people. Lucky me, banjo posture is improving.

2. there are physiotherapists specializing in musicians' injuries. I heard of one at Chedoke-McMaster in Hamilton Ontario, but never went there.

3. persons of a more disciplined persuasion than I may benefit from prescribed exercises. Me, if it ain't fun it won't get done! So I bought a pair of inline skates a kuppla years ago...great fun. Last year I got ice skates for the first time in nearly 30 years.

4. when standing, do you lock your knees? I'm better off if I can remember to keep them a tiny bit bent. Best way for me is to move to the music, y'know, step or sway etc.

5. sometimes I lie down on my back for a minute or two with a small stuffed toy or foam ball between my shoulder blades. Any longer than that and a whole new spasm sets up.

All this experience is, of course, to be ignored until the healer of your choice has ruled out icky medical stuff and diagnosed a sedentary life as the source of your back pain.

Good luck!

I'm new and I love this cafe.

C.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Crowhugger
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:00 PM

Don,

Like a few others here, I've had a couple of back surgeries. (Who knew when I joined there'd be this sorta thread?!)

So far I've learned that:

1. as someone mentioned, it does pay to take your instruments to your medi-types -- my chiropractor observed that I tended to lean forward while playing banjo. It was almost completely caused by watching my left hand, so I started practising with my eyes closed. No one was home, lucky people. Lucky me, banjo posture is improving.

2. there are physiotherapists specializing in musicians' injuries. I heard of one at Chedoke-McMaster in Hamilton Ontario, but never went there.

3. persons of a more disciplined persuasion than I may benefit from prescribed exercises. Me, if it ain't fun it won't get done! So I bought a pair of inline skates a kuppla years ago...great fun. Last year I got ice skates for the first time in nearly 30 years.

4. when standing, do you lock your knees? I'm better off if I can remember to keep them a tiny bit bent. Best way for me is to move to the music, y'know, step or sway etc.

5. sometimes I lie down on my back for a minute or two with a small stuffed toy or foam ball between my shoulder blades. Any longer than that and a whole new spasm sets up.

All this experience is, of course, to be ignored until the healer of your choice has ruled out icky medical stuff and diagnosed a sedentary life as the source of your back pain.

Good luck!

I'm new and I love this cafe.

C.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 06:02 PM

Hi Crowhugger. I'm new too. Stick around!

Suggest you also visit thread "On Being a New Member..."

See you there!

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Crowhugger
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 06:44 AM

ooops, sorry. I've no idea how I entered the same thing so many times.

Subject: RE: Help: Playing through Back Pain
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Feb 00 - 06:00 PM

Well, just have it all checked out THOROUGHLY.

Back problems have been with me a long time. Had FOUR surgeries---neck and lower back. 3 on the neck (several fusions and a laminectomy) and also a laminectomy on the lower back. Nothing helped. Legs got weaker and weaker and my hands got number and number. Cannot pick hardly at all now. When I couldn't lift my legs off the bed, I went to the Mayo Clinic and gave up on the doctors who had told me that the back surgery would make me a new man.

Bottom Line : Mayo told me I'd had Multiple Sclerosis for the last 15 years---now 20 years.

Most doctors mean well. Maybe they get it right---but maybe not. Right now I feel that they truly do only practice medicine. It leaves one feeling a bit like Job when it's you who got practiced upon.

But I do really feel they all did their best. Just know that symptoms can overlap, and depending on a doctor's particular specialty, the answers they come up with just might reflect their medical specialties and prejudices.

KEEP A SENSE OF HUMOR. That sure has helped me.

But be sure to check out all the possibilities. And go for 3 or 4 opinions BEFORE you let 'em cut on ya. Yes, it will cost a ton of money. I'd not be here without a huge amount of help from my friends and fans. This folk world is truly a grand community.

Art Thieme