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BS: I don't know what to say

Amos 10 Mar 00 - 07:38 PM
katlaughing 10 Mar 00 - 08:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 00 - 02:35 PM
WyoWoman 11 Mar 00 - 03:11 PM
Night Owl 11 Mar 00 - 03:59 PM
GUEST 11 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM
wysiwyg 11 Mar 00 - 06:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM
Osmium 11 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM
WyoWoman 11 Mar 00 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,me again 12 Mar 00 - 12:04 AM
WyoWoman 12 Mar 00 - 12:27 AM
wysiwyg 12 Mar 00 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,yet again, it is i! 12 Mar 00 - 12:51 AM
wysiwyg 12 Mar 00 - 01:04 AM
wysiwyg 12 Mar 00 - 01:08 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Mar 00 - 06:09 PM
Wolfgang 22 Dec 00 - 05:08 AM
Gary T 22 Dec 00 - 06:46 AM
catspaw49 22 Dec 00 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,late 'n short 22 Dec 00 - 10:20 AM
Uncle_DaveO 22 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Dec 00 - 02:29 PM
Kim C 22 Dec 00 - 05:15 PM
Hollowfox 26 Dec 00 - 10:31 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 07:38 PM

think Spaw's question regarding biological parenting is very well put. Who says everyone with functional reproductive organs should use them?

Why, a lot of people. In fact, millions of 'em! Typically and traditionally it is a message delivered in persuasive quantities by rampant hordes of young men to tantalized hordes of young women, but often enough it's the other way around, and age doesn't matter much...

You don't have to look far afield to find out where the persuasion is coming from. May be 'Spaw is just occluding his part in it in ages gone by?


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 00 - 08:31 PM

Kevin, I might be a bit addled tonight, but I didn't see any lyrics at that site to tell me what Vin Garbutt has to say. Did I miss them somewhere? (BTW, did you notice if he had the middle initial "e", he could be "vinegarbutt", sorry, just had to mention that, struck me when I saw his webpages addy*BG*).

I know I've read stuff about him on here before and I would like to read some of his lyrics, esp. since I write a lot about the same types of issues, alhtough not in song form.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 02:35 PM

kat - you're right, there aren't any lyrics on the Vin Garbutt site - I think there used to be a link to some, but not now.

I'll send you a Vin Garbutt lyric, or a file with him singing - but in the meantime here's a verse from one of his songs.

An unfamiliiar freedom now belongs to common man,
It's hard for us to say "No thanks", we're told "You can, you can"
We've even won the right the evil rich men always had,
It seems forbidden fruit is priceless, even when it's bad.
So let's scrutinise the package deals we're offered,
Like anti-nuclear, save the whale, abortion on demand,
We may feel we're so liberal and enlightened,
Like him who to defend his rights did napalm Vietnam."

I can still remember the first time I heard Vin, at Cambridge folk festival nearly 20 years ago. It was in a packed tent. He'd just sung a song, I think it was about San Salvador, and the murder of Archbishop Romero while he was saying Mass.

Then he said "Here's a song about Civil Rights", and he sang "Little Innocents", from which that quote comes. And you could see the jaws drop left and right, and when he'd done, half the crowd jumped to their feet and applauded, and half the crowd sat on their hands. And there was no way you could tell looking at them which of us would do which.

I think Vin is the bravest singer I've ever come across, and the most honest, and it's cost him an enormous amount, in money and other things.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: WyoWoman
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 03:11 PM

Well, hell. I wasn't going to get myself involved in any more of these opinion threads -- got tired of getting slimed -- but as Catspaw proves repeatedly, it's hard to keep a Big Mouth down...

I've written articles in two separate cities about programs designed to intervene in the lives of young women, based on the idea that a lot of inappropriate sexual behavior is more of a self-esteem issue than one of sexuality. These are effective programs, but a hard sell. The research is pretty solid, however, that the more options you give a young woman (and I'm talking life options here, not birth-control options) and the more self-respect she can build up, the fewer unwanted pregnancies happen.

It's fascinating to me how much some religious folk have made the unborn fetus almost a holy icon, but basically don't care much for the already born human person who just happens to be a female in her child-bearing years. If we could create a society that respected girls and boys' humanity, and raised them to be actual human persons rather than consumers --of sex, of music, of stuff and stuff and more stuff -- we might find ourselves with a birth rate that stays relatively reasonable. People -- not just kids, but us grownups, too -- have sex for a bazillion reasons and only about five of those reasons actually have to do with sex. More often it's about being viewed as desirable, being affirmed as potent, pleasing the one who says s/he wants you, being admired and respected, gaining status, and sometimes just getting our skin touched in a pleasing way. Maybe if we could just start focusing on taking care of some of those needs in a healthy, affirming and life-producing way, we could stop worrying so much about the end of the process: abortion or unwanted babies.

Make art, not babies.

WyoWoman


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Night Owl
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 03:59 PM

Spaw...I have seen you make reference to your's and Karen's roles as foster parents.....have read between the lines often in what you have to say about it and the pain and frustrations and joys that come along with the roles you fill. Thank you for telling us, in more detail, your thoughts and knowledgeable perspectives. You have much to teach us!!


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 05:05 PM

since i'm a guest and can say what I want, can I say just one thing? Why is it perfectly acceptable and even common to put the word 'hypocrite' next to "religious"? i know you say "some" and "fanatic" to specify which you think you're talking about, but still, such comments spread a brand of intolerance which i find abhorrant. There are hypocrites on both sides of whatever issue you would like to talk about, far to much emotion, and far too little thought. Especially thought. Show some consideration, will you? And a little forethot as to what sort of world is being created where anyone who holds conservative opinions or believes that not having sex is the only sure fire method of birth control can be insulted and generalized about without penalty.

on topic: i think a baby in a chute is better than a dead baby. But really, none of this should be necessary. there is a problem with a world where women feel so alone and unsupported that they feel it is necessary to give their baby to strangers.

my 2 cents


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 06:13 PM

This is in direct response to GUEST, and points raised, although others are welcome to MHO as well. I would invite those of you who are coming to know me well to respond to my page. This thread has another purpose.

As an openly religious member of this diverse community, may I say that I don't often find occasion here to be offended, excluded, or discriminated against-- I feel no sense personally of being "intolerated." Some of you may feel intolerant, and no one on the planet is free of all prejudice, but it's my choice to keep my focus on the lovability of every one of you here.

I DO find that there is a widespread lack of deep relationship between: (a) people who've been burnt by harm disguised as religion, and (b) deeply religious people who struggle just as hard with difficult issues as non-religious people do.

For those of the religious who are Christians, our obligation is to take responsibility for initiating real, honest, loving, and respectful relationships. Far too often we come at a situation using Bible as club, instead. Our own lack of skill or confidence in our ability to convey what we hold deep and dear makes it very easy to "jerk the knee of the heart" instead of "bending the knee of the heart."

Right now, for instance, another 'Catter and I are following a trail begun in the Honesty thread, in our pages. It has included lots of "religious" stuff in it that could so easily push apart two people who began with an intention to communicate. It has taken hard work to do what most of my fellow Christians acknowledge is extremely difficult and rare-- hang in without backing down, off, or around what is hard to accomplish with words. I think it's taking the two of us to do it, but it's up to me to be the Christian I say I am-- his tolerance or lack of it doesn't change that.

BTW, despite people's desire to be clear and to avoid giving offense, I (personally) don't find it useful relevant to have adjectives accompany the word "religious" in the writer's attempt to try to distunguish between "good" religious and "bad" religious. Where the prejudice is there, it comes through anyway. Where it isn't, the qualifiers aren't needed. And most of what the prejudice is responding to isn't religion, religious people, o anything to do with spirituality, it's just another brand of pride that has done damage.

I'm just sorry that being a Christian doesn't mean being perfect, and that so much harm has been done in the name of religion, and hurt so many. This Christian is still trying to figure out how to answer the friend who said, "How come a car with a fish bumper sticker on it can cut me off in traffic?" Fortunately (IMHO), she is still friend enough to be around for the next piece of the answer.

There is just no substitute for relationships made of real experiences shared.

Rant? No, a sad/tired/loving attempt to touch people who think, done too long and quite imperfectly I am sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 06:28 PM

You're free to say what you want here whether you're a GUEST or not.

As you say, there are hypocrites all over the place. But I think it's a fair enough word to use. Good enough for Jesus anyway - and he used it about people he saw as religious hypocrites.

But it's not a word to be thrown around lightly, just because you disagree with someone. It's an accusation that someone is betraying what they would claim to be their basic principles in the things they do or say. In my experience its more readily used about politicians than anyone else - for example, Labour Prime Ministers who go on trips to shake hands with murderers like Putin in Moscow, for example, and still talk about having "an ethical foreign policy".

The whole abortion debate seems to be deep in what I'd call hypocrisy, on both sides, alongside honest people who aren't hypocrites, but who hold very different views. I think both labels, "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are pretty shaky ones - both invite the accusation of hypocrisy.

I can see that it is possible for people who are opposed to abortion to believe in Capital Punishment, and vice-versa - though I cannot begin to understand how. But I cannot see how it is possible for someone to accept the right of the state to kill people, and yet describe themself as "pro-life".

And I cannot see how it is possible for someone who is opposed to abortion to favour laws that make it harder for lone mothers to bring up their children.

Again, I can understand the case which people make in support of mothers having the right to decide that their child should be aborted, though I cannot agree with it. But I cannot see how a position that excludes any rights to the unborn child can validly be described as "pro-choice."

(I really hadn't meant to raise this divisive subject here - but something I said had accidentally caused a misunderstand of my position, and you have to clarify things when that happens.)


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Osmium
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 06:46 PM

Well done Guest.
Just how many of us think we are the cause of your concerns. Perhaps I am, and so I'll try to expand a little but say first there are dangers in this very limited form of communication that a "thread" offers. So some of us, me probably, needs to think harder before posting.
By religous I only meant that when I view the whole word it seems to me that "belief" sometimes seem to skew events to an incredible degree, way beyond what commonsense can possibly tell us to be true. My problem is that that each religion seems to hold its tenets or truism's to the same degree, and somehow this seems to be at the long term cost of those "sinners" who are the one's who are truly in need.
There are those religous people who I know do a lot of good and then there are, it seems to me, those who are more intersested in preserving the power-base of a said religion and will use any evotive issue to ride the cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: WyoWoman
Date: 11 Mar 00 - 08:04 PM

I say some because I mean some, not all.

ww


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: GUEST,me again
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:04 AM

well, i've got to thank you people for responding so thoughtfully to what was (in me) a somewhat knee-jerk reaction. y'see, i'm young yet (how young isn't important), actively pro-life, devoutedly catholic, and passionate about just about everything. i've been buddying around with friends who don't take my opinions seriously most of my life...i know how to dialogue, i've done a lot of it. i've also been brushed off more times than i care to count by people who assume they know what i'm thinking and why i'm thinking it. i've been told i'm brainwashed, intolerant and uncaring, bigoted, and hateful. I try very hard in all aspects of my life to be truly supportive of life, whatever stage it is in, and take seriously to tenets of my faith...but still the labels i should be proud of call to mind other labels which have nothing to do with me. I'm just tired of it, and i've come (in my time lurking) to expect so much from you guys (GG nonsense notwithstanding) that it got to me when a thought provoking thread on fostering and abandoned babies and suchlike turnes up some of the same sort of comments which i've heard directed against myself. when it comes down to it, i agree with a lot of you on a lot of things- being pro-life and pro-capital punishment *is* a contradiction in terms, and there are 'religious' people out there who are hypocrites. the world would be a better place if they weren't. There are also a lot of well meaning, genuine christians (and muslims and hindu, etc.) who are inconsistant because they're still learning, still growing...christ came, after all, for the sinners, right? a bumper sticker or news release will not tell you the state of someone's heart or the spot on the road they happen to be on... all i ask is some charity. and i'll try not to be so sensitive. deal?

my 2 cents

p.s. Praise, your posts are a pleasure to read. McGrath, thanks for saying what i should have said. you guys all rock!


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: WyoWoman
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:27 AM

yes, well, I certainly can understand your frustration. I also get pretty sick of being tossed in a basket full of thoughtless heathens when I dare to express a world view that doesn't align itself with what someone else defines as "faith" these days.

Conversation is all about finding out on an individual basis what the other is thinking and what shaped that person's approach to the subject matter. Argument is about broadcasting your opinion as loudly and insistently as possible in the attempt to bludgeon your opposition into submission. Much of what passes for public discourse these days is full of the latter and not much interested in the former. Occasionally, some actual conversation takes place here on the 'Cat, and that is most welcomed.

WW


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:29 AM

GUEST you again,

I would welcome you as a member, or if you'd like to converse with me via personal message, go to quick links up top and click [send a personal message] where you can leave me an e-address to reply.

But really, I would encourage you to make, for yourself, a membership here. And you know what? Your thinking will probably be more welcome, more respected, and more sought after here than just about anywhere else.

Hope to see you around... notice no one flamed me for my comments--- this pace is as safe as it gets, on earth anyway...


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: GUEST,yet again, it is i!
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 12:51 AM

praise-

i think i'll join up...eventually. right now i'm still sucking up atmosphere. and making a fool of myself before all you kind people form any opinions of me. . i'd like to send you a personal message, but i can't figure out how!


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:04 AM

Stay tuned, I'll make you link. Be right back.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 01:08 AM

GUEST You--

If I did this right, you should be able to CLICK HERE to send me a message. I will reply, if you'll provide your e-mail address in the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 00 - 06:09 PM

Thanks "me again" for the comment. Your the kind of GUEST that's welcome here. But sign up, because it gets more fun then (there are all kinds of clever Mudcat facilities you get to use).

One thing - it's easier to read post when they are broken up into paragraphs, and the way to do that is to put a < followed by a P, followed by a > (and the reason I write it that way is because otherwise it wouldn't be seen - instead of displaying the code, the program would obey it, and jump the text to a new paragraph like now

- you see what I mean).


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 05:08 AM

This follow-up is for you, Pat, and some others who might be interested to know what happened. You know I'm a person who rather relies on data than on gut feeling when evaluating a scheme. Here are the data. But I'll start with a short summary for the newcomers:

summary: In Hamburg, there is a private organisation supported by public money that tries to prevent baby deaths resulting from them being abandoned by their mothers. They have two schemes:
(1) a 'baby hatch' with a warm bed behind and a silent alarm that allows mothers to give away their newborn and walk away unknown.
(2) A telephone hotline. You phone and somebody comes to any place you want to 'collect' the baby and there are no questions asked.

The data: In 1999, the last year before the scheme, in Hamburg (2.5 Million inhabitants) four newborns have been abandoned by their mothers and two of them have died from exposure.
In 2000, the first year of 'Operation Moses' in Hamburg, no baby has been abandoned. Six newborns, however, have been 'handed over' to the organisation, two of them by the hotline, four of them by the hatch. All six are in good health and foster care.

The project seems to be working.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 06:46 AM

Thanks for the update, Wolfgang. It certainly does sound like an improvement.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:30 AM

Wolfgang, thanks so much for the update. That's very impressive and the city is to be congratulated.

Last week in Youngstown, a newborn was thrown from the upper window of a house after being stabbed by the teen mother. There is some groundswell among the activists here as a result which may see some action from the state along these lines.

Congrats to Hamburg for the courage to try something to make a difference. May we all learn from them.

Pat


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: GUEST,late 'n short
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 10:20 AM

Just heard on the radio this morning that Brooklyn, NY "safe homes" have been set up for teen-agers, un-wed Moms or I guess anyone with an unwanted baby (those words send chills through me). This time of year always seems to bring more stories of abandonments and deaths in this area. Myabe this will help.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM

'Spaw:

You've blown your cover, man! Never again will I be able to believe the "rude, crude, and socially unacceptable" personna!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 02:29 PM

Thanks for that Wolfgang. The papers pick up on stories like this, but then they move on and we are left in the dark.

It's sad it has to happen, but it's good that it can happen this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 05:15 PM

Spaw, you are a Saint, which I always suspected anyhow. But I won't tell nobody. :)

It's a hard dilemma. My personal stance has always been, I do not want any children at present, so I use birth control. Used it for 14 years. Never got pregnant. For me, that's simple. But it's not so simple for everyone. Some people have no access to birth control, or don't realize that they do. Others don't know how to use it.

I don't know what the answer is. But I'm thankful there are people around like Pat and Karen!


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Subject: RE: BS: I don't know what to say
From: Hollowfox
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 10:31 AM

(slight thread creep) Actually, 'Spaw, the baby was killed by a neighbor girl. "We always knew she had problems, but nothing this bad", said the girl's mother. It sounds a bit like the Attachment Disorder you mentioned above, since the girl had always been good with the baby before, playing with her, etc.


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