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BS: Cyberspace Friendships
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Allan C. Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM In my posting (above) I mentioned a "former cyberfriend". I listed him that way because now that we have met in the flesh, we are simply friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Allan C. Date: 20 Mar 00 - 04:05 PM At the end of May, one of my best "live and in person" friends and a former cyberfriend and I will be heading out to tour through approximately 25 states along with a visit to Toronto. Our travels will lead us more or less to the doorsteps of nearly thirty 'Catters. Or at least, we hope to meet at least that many en route. My own suspicion is that we will meet more than that. I have already had the pleasure of meeting close to fifty Mudcatters at various times and places and agree that nearly all have been as expected. Some have been even nicer than expected. So far, there have been only pleasant surprises.
We embark upon our trip with the greatest confidence that our encounters with fellow 'Catters will be pleasant ones. We really have no reason to suspect otherwise. Many of the folks we will visit, I will have known cyberly for slightly more than three years. (I logged my first posting in May of 1998.) It has always been at the very least interesting to meet cyberfriends in person. Generally, it has enriched the mix of the mortar which was already bonding us.
The whole business of discovering that these cyberfolks really ARE people is an amazing experience. That very reason is among the purposes of our trip. We really want to meet our cyberfriends on their own turf. We really want to hear your music. We hope to share a bit of the spirit of the Mudcat with all we meet and we want very much to share our music as well. An interesting aspect of the trip could be that if anyone were to really turn out to be very negatively different than the image portrayed here at the Mudcat, I suppose it would behoove us to tell you about it. But I sincerely doubt that we will encounter anything but wonderful people whose idea of a good time is an evening spent with folks making music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: SDShad Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM Well, I'm pretty new to Mudcat, at least as the message boards go. I've used the site to search/download Digital Tradition for quite a while. It took me quite a while to venture into the message boards, and then really only to search for more songs. But slowly, and more recently, I've begun to get a sense, at least from a lurker's view, of the Cafe's feel of community. And it's a familiar feeling. I first got on the 'Net when I was hired to the job I stil have...*counts on fingers*...eight years later. One of the first things I stumbled onto was a telnet-based, text-only BBS that had made the transition from local dial-up board in Omaha to Internet BBS. My Mudcat handle is a tip o' th' hat to my original handle there. And I do know that I've made lasting, important friendships _there_. I work in computer networks, and attend a fair number of conferences and such in different areas, and three times in the last five years, I've been met/dropped off at the airport or otherwise met with friends from that BBS. That BBS has since been driven underground by a couple of hacking 'Net psychopaths from its distant past, but it still exists in its secret corner where old friends, just a few of us now, still gather. Many of my closest friends from the BBS I've actually met in meatspace, and a few who've fallen away from the BBS I still stay in touch with. But that little cadre who still come around there includes a number of dear friends (some of whom call me "Uncle Shad") whom I've never met and probably never will due to geographic obstacles. Can't travel _everywhere_ you might want. I hope I'll find the Cafe to be a similar place in terms of friendship and community. From what I've thus far seen, I think I will. So, my short response to the original post: online friendships are a different kind of friendship from meatspace friendships, even when the two overlap. But I wouldn't trade away a single one of 'em. Lasting, meaningful bonds are formed in such places as this. Chris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:14 PM Kendall, having lived in New England for 13 years when I came here, I can identify with that story. It is reminiscent of an Irishman's proposal of marriage: "How would you like to be buried my people?" When I perform at shows now, I've started asking "Are there any Mudcatters here?" from the stage, so I can get to meet some of you nice folks in person. Unfortunately, I didn't to do it at NTIF, being a newbie an'all, and I didn't realize that there were a whole bunch of them there. Met Jed, though. All the best. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Big Mick Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM Interesting thread, glad I took the few minutes I had to read it. I can remember addressing some of this a long time ago. It seems to me that what makes this place so wonderful is the lack of the visual. That is, we communicate in a way that is unfettered of the visual cues we all take and ascribe perception to. What this leads to is coming to know one another in a very personal way. That is not to say you don't have phonies. But what you are speaks much louder than what you say you are. Those that choose to hang in and become part of the community cannot hide their true selves. That is why I, for one, just love Little Neo. Her wit, and the hugeness of her heart come through constantly. There are those who are not comfortable with the intimacy of some of the threads, and I pass no judgement on them. They should not contribute to those, just stay where they are comfortable. That is another beauty of the 'Cat. Participate on whatever level YOU are comfortable. Just don't tell the rest what they should be doing. Back to the subject. I can tell you categorically that the friendships that I have made here are real. The depth of the interaction, and the level of genuine affection is real. The actual meeting of these folks enhances what is already a very deep and abiding sense of friendship. There are those I have met, and had my suspicions confirmed (good or bad). There are those whom I have yet to meet. But when I do, it will go just as each of us might hope. Why? Because we already know one another on a very intimate level from the free sharing of love, friendship, hurt feelings, moods, knowledge, music,etc. Many of you have written me to say that my posting with regard to Vietnam touched you. In no other forum, in the flesh or written word, have I been able to express with such clarity my feelings and experiences of that time. This is the first place that I was able to do that since 1972. So, yeah, Little Neo. I definitely feel like we can have real relationships. I feel like I know you in ways that some of your "meatspace" friends probably don't. And I like what I "see". And tell my friend, Mr. Fielding that I can't wait to meet him for real. But there will be very few surprises. All the best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:26 PM Well, if you can see that here, Tony, we're glad to have you. Cuz that's for the most part what we are putting out...'cept for Spaw who keeps us honest (:>){) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: GUEST,Anthony Date: 20 Mar 00 - 12:28 PM Well now ... It seems to me like Web frienships can lead to great correspondences not unlike those of the 17th and 18th centuries when mountains, rivers and oceans kept many folks from seeing one another as often as they might like. There are lots of cases on record -- long before electricity, let alone computers -- of two people forming deep emotional bonds via the written word without ever meeting. One of my closest friends happens to be someone I went to college with 25 years ago, and for a variety of reasons we seldom get to see one another or even speak on the phone. But our letters -- taken together -- make up a huge and very real part of my emotional life with which I would not willingly part. I think the mistake is this notion is that Cyberspace is a "place," a separate reality in which the rules of human interaction and affection are somehow different. My e-correspondences are just as real as any of the other ways in which I express myself. Speaking of unreality, what could be more tenuous than the bonds created when singing songs to a roomful of strangers? But I would wager that very few of us see the harm in that -- unless we're successful enough to have deranged fans. As for this site, I'm a newbie. But the folks I've found on it are warm and kind and wonderfully affirming? In my book, those kinds of qualities are about the only thing that is genuine, Cyber speaking or otherwise. Sing on, sing loud, Tony |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 00 - 12:25 PM Neo and Kat, I say pour your hearts out and let the chips fall where they may. Stretching the British mold is a longstanding tradition with usn's -- especially the New Englanders amongst us. I do not believe anyone has ever been harmed by honest open expression, at least not in any important way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: katlaughing Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:29 AM Ayup, that's about what it is like, sometimes, living with a Yankee, thank goodness he's got French Canadian passion, too!*BG* LilNeo, I am sorry I didn't see your post before my last. I think you made some very good points. There is nothing wrong with being vocally demonstrative. I have read postings by other 'Catters from the UK, joking about their "reserved manner". Maybe it is this which makes some uncomfortable with some of our postings. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:29 AM And here I thought Katlaughing was the ancient Mother of all things Mudcat...shows to go you this community elder rap is more a function of how ye do what ye do, than how long you do it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: JedMarum Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:10 AM I love it Kendall! Being a Yankee born and raised not-so-old timer, I appreciate your comment! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: katlaughing Date: 20 Mar 00 - 11:09 AM Invariably you will find that those who may be effusive in their affection for one another in the threads, also tend to be part of the Mudcat Welcome Wagon, throwing wide their arms in a warm and accepting welcome to any new guest or member who joins in. That's the way I was greeted a year and a half ago and I have tried to emulate that kind of welcome as well as the kind of kind helpfullness I found from the get-go. It is only the ocassional guest/member who does not respond positively to this. katwhovaluesthepowerofwordsandmeansitwhenshewrites"luvya" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Jeri Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:28 AM Clique? It's only a clique if people are shut out. Otherwise, it's a community. When you go to a new session, club, school, job, whatever, don't people there already know more about each others lives than you? Do they not make jokes about one another that you don't understand at first? The test is whether they treat you like an outsider for not knowing this stuff already, or welcome you and explain things. Granted, some people aren't looking for human interaction, just informational interaction. They want to show up, do their thing, and go home. They perhaps are looking for civility and seriousness. I can understand how they would feel uncomfortable if people were always trying to pull them into the community aspect, and they didn't want to be there. Telling others how to conduct themselves is egotistical, as well as futile. (Does saying "don't tell others what to say" = telling others what to say? Oh well - just being egotistical and futile...) Joe, I've made many "friends of the road" here. I've also made a few friends for life. The main thing we have in common is folk music, not necessarily this forum, which was simply a meeting place. I believe it takes more communication than what is possible in Mudcat to solidify a relationship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:28 AM Love you uninterruptedly, Neo, and without reservation. Paste that into a font you like and put it where you can see it so you don't forget. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Little Neophyte Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:25 AM Praise, thanks for pointing that out to me. I meant no harm. And I really did not mean to offend Shambles or anyone else. It is so important to think through what I type. But from my experience of people passing away in my life, what I learned was that the love they offered was the most important thing that I would remember. I do feel what is most important in life is our connections with other human beings. Everyone is different. Many will offer what they know in their knowledge of the music as a way of expressing their love, concern and helpfulness to others. If someone on the forum would misinterpret what I meant to say then I do apologize. I guess my style is being verbally demonstative. And I guess if my parents had been vocal about there love for me, I would not be wandering around looking for it all the time. Sorry guys, do you still love me? Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 00 - 09:00 AM That's the Maine character for ye. In a nutshell. But, kendall, since the rest of us are still freemen outside the spell of the ancient stones and all, we can tell ye that we love you! :>) Oh, sorry... did I break a moray? *BG*** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: kendall Date: 20 Mar 00 - 08:50 AM Thanks for the correction Seamus..you had me worried talking like my ex wife... We New Englanders dont usually go on about things like this forum thread, For instance, there is a classic story here.. Two old New Englanders, married for a hundred years, sitting in rocking chairs on the piazza, he says to her, "When I think of all you've meant to me over the years, it's all I can do to keep from telling you." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Mar 00 - 08:41 AM Well Neo, I'd been thinking of Shamb coming into the coffeehouse I described. He'd be one of the quieter ones. His experience of being there, and his observations, would go mostly into his songs. They'd come out of deep recesses and be well worth waiting for. And if that were all he gave, that would be fine with us-- that would be his place there, fully filled, and filled well. Seeing you and I sitting there laughing and hugging and being very demonstrative, what would he think? You know what? Maybe the look on his face would be one thing, but the warmth of our affection would still go to any spot inside that it needs to go... which would be his business. We wouldn't get up and go ask him to account for it, would we? Wouldn't we mostly leave him in peace and just gently touch his shoulder when we pass by his table? Wouldn't we just let him find his way to what he needs and welcome him if that brought him our way? There's a note of frustration in your post I find troubling, although the thought is a reasonable one. What I've described above can't accurately speak for Shambles... but I would ask you to clear up what you mean to say, and not leave it as it was said above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Little Neophyte Date: 20 Mar 00 - 08:07 AM Shambles, I think I understand what you are saying. That the forum would be more inclusive to all the readers if we kept our personal endearments for one another off the threads and expressed them elsewhere like in personal messages and email. When I first came to the Mudcat one of the attractive features of this forum was the open affection members expressed to one another. I thought, now isn't that beautiful. People here are able to express their love and appreciation for one another. I think offering another human being love and affection can be more essential than food. If someone feels uncomfortable around that, maybe they should look at why it bothers them so much. When you die and pass away from this earth what will your friends remember about you? That you told them when playing Irish ballads to use the I-IV-I-II-V-I-IV-I-V-I chord progression? Not that this information is not important, it is; we are on a Folk Music Forum. But honestly, when you pass away the only thing your friends will remember about you is the kindness, love and affection you offered them. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:34 AM I've been active in forums like this for about ten years. First was the folk forum on Prodigy. When that closed down weh Prodigy tried charging by the minute, I went to a computer bulletin board in Maine where some of the Prodigy folks had migrated (the board was run by Noel Paul Stookey of Peter, Paul & Mary). Then I came here in 1996, and I've found this to be the most interesting of the three. I met many people from all three forums in person, and found most of them to be even nicer in person than they were online. There were some exceptions, but even those encounters were interesting, not dangerous. I got a couple of nice visits in Maine and a three-lobster dinner out of the bulletin board, and I have a plush toy lobster atop my computer monitor, and a blackfly-spattered Maine license plate to remind me of the good times I had with those people. I did notice that the friendships tended to dissolve once the conversations in the forum started to die. The other two forums lasted about three years, and then people began to say the same things over and over and get mired in trivialisms. I'm hoping this forum will last much longer than that. My friendships here seem much stronger, perhaps because I was able to have multiple encounters with the Washington people last year. I guess I'd say that my friends here are more "friends of the road," rather than "friends for life." The forum is what ties us together, what we have in common. If that common tie dissolves, so will most of our relationships. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: The Shambles Date: 20 Mar 00 - 03:06 AM Little Neo.
Thank you for starting this thread. This is difficult but it is worth another try. My earlier criticism was not aimed at you for I feel that you are just following the example set. I just don't think that it is a good example to follow.
I do not suggest that you did not show your affection and friendship, openly to individuals, just that the forum was not the best place for it. There will be a lot of people reading such posts and you are not communicating to all of those people. By posting on a thread you are catching their attention, only to say in effect, 'this does not concern you'. Could that not be considered self-indulgent and a little rude? Why must it be done publicly on the forum when there are so many better ways of doing it?
This is probably the cause of the clique, perception that some posters here mentioned on first reading the forum. They obviously persevered and now see it differently but how many more do not persevere? To some, belonging to such a clique is desirable and they will do what is required to be thought part of it. To others it is undesirable. There is room for us all if a little common sense can be shown.
Some recognition, consideration and gratitude should be shown on the forum to the silent majority. They probably will not be reading this thread. They do not insist on conducting their friendships on the forum and by doing so, enable those that do have this need, to do so. For if everyone talked personally to their friends on the forum in this manner, there would be no room left for anything else. We would have succeeded in 'killing the goose that laid the golden egg' I keep going back to setting an example. It is up to all Mudcatter's to respect ALL other Mudcatter's. To leave room for their views and to behave in such a way that new posters immediately recognise that expectation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Mar 00 - 02:15 AM I think it's really simple. I think we act here just like we would at a coffeehouse... the genius was in calling this a Cafe. You know-- we play games, we schmooze, we argue, we look over new people wnadering in, we ARE new people wandering in... Sometimes we chat with the night's performer, sometimes we swap tunes on our way to gigs or late night after gigs, sometimes we hook up with a hot babe.... Sometimes we break down and cry, sometimes we get a Life Answer we've been really looking for... Sometimes we act like assholes.... and forget our language... I've been practicing Spanish, other, Gaelic... See, I don't think the cyber side has that much to do with it. I'd have found ALL of you dear friends in a 3-D Cafe, maybe not as fast, but we were MEANT to connect. It just happnednd to be here, with all the crazy stuff that goes with it. One thing that goes with it is the inner safety to be ourselves, so when we tanglefoot bad, we tangle reel bad. And when we tanglefoot good, we tangle reel gude. But-- we would have done that at the 3-D cafe too, in time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: The Beanster Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:29 AM Was just pondering this whole deal after updating myself on the new posts and IMHO, of course, it is the wise cyber traveler who is a bit wary of virtual strangers but this is also very true in the real world. People undoubtedly present to the cyber world what they choose to present, as is true in the 3D world. The potential for danger or unpleasantness exists when one runs across an antisocial personality (aka pyschopath, sociopath). And this does not necessarily mean an ax murderer. There are also passive antisocials who are merely playing an exploitation game or running a con of some sort. If they are good enough at quickly figuring out what it is YOU need and then supplying it, it's very difficult not to fall under the spell and be taken in. They know this. They are just as hard to spot in the real world (Ted Bundy is an extreme case in point) and are so successful because they are so good at what they do--IF they're good enough, you'll never see it coming. Anyway, don't mean to rain on the parade, but I think caution in any new relationship is a good idea--go slowly, be aware, look for "red flags," notice how they treat other people. But most of us do this in the real world, too. It's the same here. Just approach new people with care, is all I'm saying. *Please address all correspondence to The Beanster/Dear Abby. And rangeroger, thanks for the invite--we'll all be right over! LOL (I'll bring the potato salad) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:27 AM Catspaw, Kendall - Emulate! Emulate! All the best. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:25 AM Well, I'm a newbie here (thanks to Jed whom I actually did meet), and consequently my observations are formed on the basis of my newness. I thought it was kind of "cliquey" too, when I first started. I felt like a voyeur, or a snoop reading other people's mail, but then I noticed that there are groups of people who share interests in music, sailing, baseball (Hi Rick! I'm a Red Sox fan!) and they behave like close friends. And the others seem to be really good casual acquaintances. I also noted during "the unpleasantness" folks taking both sides - "He's an asshole, get rid of him." and others saying, "He may be an asshole, but he's OUR asshole." Just like a real family squabble, or an argument between close friends. The two I find myself closest to in outlook, humor and age, are Catspaw and Kendall, and they have become my heroes, and the ones I would most like to emasculate. All the best. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: canoer Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:17 AM Neo, I am changing your name. Henceforth thou shalt be known as "Neo-who-loves-big-questions." Arise, fair Neo, and quest forth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: ceitagh Date: 20 Mar 00 - 01:06 AM one last comment.... taking people at face value has always seemed to me a polite thing, in this space or any other. we have all at one time wanted to be other than we are, or tried to emphasize one part of our personality over another. why not? to dig up someone's hidden side may prevent them from becoming who they strive to be. there is usually a reason people show one face or another...and that shoudl be respected. this doesn't of course mean we should stop being careful. always use your brains when meeting someone you've never met before. pax, ceit (who's wired on lack of sleep and beginnning to babble) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: GUEST,Homeless (somewhere else) Date: 20 Mar 00 - 12:45 AM I've just read thru this (fairly long) thread and noticed a few things I'd like to comment on. I noticed the 'cliquiness' of the Mudcat within the first couple days of lurking, but upon closer observation I've seen that the people that comprise the cliques are usually people that have the same interests. I.e. when you ask a question or make a post about a specific topic, you usually see the same names answer as did in the last thread on that topic. It's more of knowledge-area question than an actual you-don't-belong-in-our-group kind of thing in my opinion. The same goes for the BS threads - you see a lot of the same names there. I tend to agree with thought that the personality expressed on Mudcat (not necessarily anywhere else on=line) is a reflection of the person's real personality. I know I for one am that way. I usually don't have much to say, I don't chat on the phone or BS usually. But when I have something to say, I figure it out, say it, and be done with it. My posts tend to be that way too (at least IMO). I don't post unless I have something constructive to add to the thread. Just my opinion, but I theorize that one of the reasons that some people can be more open on-line is that many of the "filters" that we live with and affect our daily communications are done away with here. Appearance was mention earlier in regards to dealing with people. There are also things like social class that aren't apparent either. In this online world of only words, that lacks so many of the visual cues that we subconsciouly process, I can approach and ask a question without people cowering in fear because I just dismounted a Harley and am covered in tattoos. I can also put forth my opinions and conjectures and have them not rejected immediately. Going the other way, I would probably be to intimidated by someone like Rick Fielding to approach him with a question in person. I would feel that he was too much of a "master" at his art to want to bother him. Other than Rick, I've not gotten enough of an impression of anyone's skills to be uncomfortable asking a question of a specific person. To address the "friends saying how much they like each other" issue... This is another time where it seems that cyber-lives mimic the offline life. Like Shambles, this, to me, is an annoyance. But it annoys me in the physical world too. I know many people that (need to) validate each other, continually. (One of the reasons I'm in the midst of a divorce is because my wife is a validator, and I'm not.)
To say that spending many hours on-line, specifically at Mudcat, is the symptom of a condition for which one needs counseling is a bit strong. Spending hours here should be viewed as a symptom-not as dis-ease in itself. The reason for the symptom needs to be analyzed, and only then should it be determined if help is needed. Amos - I've never met Spaw, but I'd bet he does act that way - I work in an office of 14 guys, 8+ of which are that way. Spaw - if you ever want to meet a few guys that would fit in with your tastes in humor, and give you a run for the money on quick come-backs, feel free to drop by. Michael K - 33k
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: ceitagh Date: 20 Mar 00 - 12:39 AM I read this entire thread (even tho i really should be going to bed about now) because I find the topic so fascinating, and you guys have some great things to say. Personally, i've been on the 'net 4 or 5 years, and in that time the only people i've consistantly corresponded with are the ones whom I know in real life. I don't know what this says about the quality of my cyber-friendships, tho i do know it corresponds with my personality- I'm not very good with high-maintenance friendships because my time-demands keep shifting. I think cyberfriendships are easy to start....to a certain extent, it is easier to find people with common interests, and we are more open on the 'net. But when your common interest disappears, so does the tie that keeps you together, because unlike a 3-D relationship, you don't have the ties of location, common experience and just being together and doing things together to flesh out the friendship beyond commonality. I'm incredibly open, as a rule, and the internet makes it even easier for me to be that way because i don't have to see who i'm talking to. I have one cyber-buddy who has talked me thru every crisis the past 3 years, with kindness and sensitivity. I see him rarely, and it is odd when i do see him, because while i can see how he is the same (kind, generous, etc.) he is also a stranger to me. Our lives are completely different, and we are awkward and unsure with each other off-line.
I guess what i'm trying to say is that i think cyberfriendships only cover part of the territory, but maybe a part that a lot of 3D friendships could benefit from. Despite all the stuff about "only seeing what you're shown", i find that what characterises cyberfriendships is honesty and intimacy...something day to day relationships can lack 'cause we're so dad-blamed busy trying to impress each other.
darn...i've still got more to say. but this is enough, i think.
ceit |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: GutBucketeer Date: 20 Mar 00 - 12:10 AM There is definitely a place for public postings and private postings. I try to use both. What I've found is that the Internet, ICQ, Mudcat, e-mail is ok for having cyber aquaintences. It really ENHANCES some of my friendships where I know the person in both worlds. It's like writing quick letters back and forth. A little more thoughful than being on the phone. Not quite as formal as snail mail. I'm not one to talk on the phone a lot, but much of the chat here is just that. It's like we are sitting around a big lunchroom shooting the breeze. Better in person, but ok on cyberspace too. JAB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: rangeroger Date: 19 Mar 00 - 11:30 PM As this is my first attempt at maintaining cyber-relationships I can only say I enjoy it.I think most of that is due to the Mudcat being what it is. All of my cyber-friendships have been with friends already made.Using e-mail to communicate.I can't say I have any close friends here yet,but you are all friends. Te other night Praise I and sent some messages to each other and she made the comment, "I think I passed you I the hall" I knew exactly what she meant.The Mudcat,to me,seems like one of those weeklong pickin' parties where you've just met everyone, but after a couple of hours you are family. At Strawberry Music Festival I have friends whom I only see twice a year.Thanks to the internet I now communicate with them a lot more. I'm not much of a letter writer,and I hate long conversations on the phone if it is just chit-chat.I find that the commonality of music creates a lot stronger bond between people than anything else I've seen.And except for one or two notable exceptions I would have all of you to my house. And even those exceptions wouyld be welcomed until their actions caused me to think otherwise. rr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Mbo Date: 19 Mar 00 - 10:18 PM Testify, Sister Neo! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Little Neophyte Date: 19 Mar 00 - 09:18 PM Shambles, if I were to not publicly display my friendship to others by verbally expressing to them how much I appreciate them and what they mean to me, well then I would not be being myself. I am a personal type person, anything other than that would make me feel very uncomfortable. If I had to stop publicly displaying my affection for others, I would end up not posting very often. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: JedMarum Date: 19 Mar 00 - 08:51 PM Cyber relationship is human relationship, but it might be what marketeers would call "human relationship-lite." Good thought in this thread, and I must say that I believe relations here are pretty much straight forward and 'real.' I see the same strengths, weaknesses and wonderful human qualities in my Mudcat acquaintances as I do in the real world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: The Shambles Date: 19 Mar 00 - 07:26 PM I agree with most of the comments above and value all of the individuals but I do not think this forum is well designed for furthering personal friendships. There are so many better ways of doing this and it causes a lot of irritation, when these methods are not used.
Further to the point that Beanster made about those individuals who do not post as often as the folk that have contributed to this thread to date. If you look at the list of posters that have, they probably would constitute what the majority of Mudcatter's may consider to represent a clique, inner core, the most frequent posters or whatever, if such a thing exists..
This perception would be perfectly understandable, mainly because these posters, some more than others, insist on conducting their friendships, publicly on the forum. I am sorry to be a wet blanket, but I, and I am sure others, have good friends here but do not see the need to constantly display that friendship publicly on the forum. Why should anyone be interested in seeing how friendly you are? If you are friends, great, just get on with it. These public displays are irresistible to the sad individuals that bother The Mudcat from time to time. It is like a 'red rag to a bull'.
I would hate to see a completely dry and impersonal forum but I do feel there is a balance to be reached. I feel that on the forum, it is always more important what is being said, rather than, who is saying it. In a chat room it may be different? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Mar 00 - 07:25 PM I think I'll wait and go last! I'm busy building up the relationships we're talking about in this thread. If any of you with whom I am co-building them wants to say more about how that's going, have at it. You know who you are! ~Wartlovin' Babe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: bbc Date: 19 Mar 00 - 07:17 PM My two cents worth--I have met quite a few Mudcatters in person & it felt just like we were picking up in the middle of a conversation. We started w/ smiles & hugs, because we already knew each other in the most important sense--what we valued & how our minds worked. No one I've met has seemed out of character from what I've expected & there are a bunch of Mudcatters I dearly love who I am really looking forward to meeting in person. I guess this doesn't seem as strange to me as it does to some folks since I met my fiance over the Internet & formed my 1st bond w/ him mind to mind before I ever saw his body & gazed into his eyes or even heard his voice on the phone. In answer to Michael K--I have had an open Mudcat get-together at my home. Yes, opening your home to strangers involves some risk, as do many things in life. I can only report that I chose to do so & had no bad result. People were friendly, tidy, & we had a wonderful time together. Hope to be doing it again in the future! love, bbc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Mbo Date: 19 Mar 00 - 06:45 PM I love you all! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 19 Mar 00 - 06:38 PM Lots of good points... Certainly where you meet cyberfriends can make a big difference as to who they are...how real (honest) they are...Mudcatters have a real and serious common interest in music...chat rooms can be playing with TNT! I have some cyber friends whom I converse with though there is not as strong a tie as with my in-person friends...I always take a bit of extra caution with online stuff...though at Mudcat I sometimes let my hair down, as they say. Then I go and truly surprise myself and develop on remarkable cyber friendship--built first due to a common interest in Irish Music...but led into tons of other common interests. This friendship has since has regular postal communications, phone calls, and other internet communications that are available...I never thought I would become so fond of a person I have never met in person, but hope and pray that someday I will... When you really think about it, there are lots of nutcases that people meet in the "real world" with out knowing it at first. So, in-person doesn't always guarantee "real", "true", "lasting", "honest".....Volumes could be written about all the different types/means of friendship nowadays. In any situation, online or in real life everyone needs to be cautious to a point. As for Mudcat, I think it a pretty safe haven...especially since there are lots of "regulars"...who pull together in various situations. Mary Kate |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: TerriM Date: 19 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM I think there is a lot to be said for NOT having the other baggage that comes along with usual social interaction, judgements about appearance, accent, body language etc. I think it leaves you free to a) judge what you are hearing/seeing on it's merits as pure communication and b)to say what you feel without those you are "speaking" to,wondering about your appearance etc. and how you are being judged. The validity of the interaction is in the thought/written word only which is unique in human relations, not more or less of value, but different.But then, I have just got in from the pub! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 19 Mar 00 - 05:46 PM More you resist it, the shockinger it'll be when it happens, I guess -- and contrariwise, too! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Little Neophyte Date: 19 Mar 00 - 05:17 PM Amos you have brought up such a good point. Sometimes I am so surprised at the telepathic awareness others have with me. They seem to know exactly what to say to me and when to say it. I also seem to timely find the exact thread I need read or I come in right after an important posting I would like to respond to. Sometimes this telepathy is shocking. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 19 Mar 00 - 05:06 PM To be honest I think (and didn't mention above) that there is an element of telepathic awarerness that gets brought out in some people on a cyber-link -- the very breath of the individual comes through, while the recipient is simply staring at pixels in the strictest material sense, but this only happens in scattered instances. Or perhaps is only acknowledged to happen in scattered instances. Since most schools of psychology don't even admit of such a phenomenon, it is unlikely that aspect of cyber-affinities will ever get documented or researched. There is certainly a lot more that could be said on that side of the question but I know you're all picking up the whole idea from me as you read this .......(faint background music from Twilight Zone....doodeedoodeedoodeedoodee.....) "God dammit, Mulder! What is happening here??!!!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: katlaughing Date: 19 Mar 00 - 05:01 PM For the record, in case some of what I posted is misconstrued, Spaw and I are two peas in a pod, what you see, hear, read, etc. is what you get, in 3D or cyberdom. katlaughingforreal |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: The Beanster Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:50 PM Long as this thread is, I just read the whole thing. So interesting. I can't wait until sociologists have enough data to really decipher what's going on in these "relationships." I would say that there are definitely friendships formed via cyberspace. Rick mentioned above that others have said this place is a bit cliquish--which I believe is true. But I also believe that occurs because (and Rick alluded to this, also) people just prefer to speak to those whom they already "know." Perfectly fine. One of the major limitations of a forum such as this is, we all know that there must be folks out there who read these threads, but who rarely post anything. You have to admit that the level of intellect on here is sometimes very impressive and just as someone who feels socially inadequate in a real-life situation is likely to hang back, someone who feels not quite up to snuff on spelling, grammar, worth of contributions, humor, etc. may think twice about posting a note here. I think that's a great loss to us all, although there is no remedy for it. At least in "meatspace" (as you so eloquently call it!)(lol) there may be an opportunity to coax someone into the discussion, whereas in this forum, there is no effective way to do that. And so we're missing out on those people, unfortunately. I must say, though, that I, personally, do not feel I form "friendships" via cyberspace, however, I do have strong schizoid (loner) personality features and have never felt the need for these. But I think it's obvious from reading your posts to each other that some of you feel significant affection for certain others. I believe you all when you say it's real and I think it's wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: MK Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:48 PM Agreed Amos....but everything in moderation, including the amount of time one spends online, communicating with Cyber friends, and developing cyber-relationships...and not embellishing them in one's own mind to the point where an expection level of the other, is so overblown it falls into the realm of fantasy, and few people can live up to the expectations of someone else's reality of what you really are. Email and chat forums are great vehicles for furthering and feeding that expectation, especially in younger people, and those lacking stability socially and emotionally in there day to day lives. I see red flags online when an individual's needy-ness is manifested in their postings and emails, and an in-your-face compulsion to be accepted and RECOGNIZED by any cyber community they frequent through those postings. (I ignore them.) (Thanks for re-phrasing my term, Wyo.) 8-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: WyoWoman Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM Define underhanded ... (Isn't that the way a leftie plays the guitar?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: Amos Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:27 PM Ulterior motives may be rampant in some newsgroups and BBS environments, especially those where the central theme is one of personal gain or self-importance or criminality (like a warez site), altho even theives have their own codes. But this particular "exception to the rule" -- the Mudcat -- because of its central themes and its collection of strong and comapssionate personalities seems to be the reverse: honesty, humor, compassion and straight talk are far more rampant than ulterior motives. I would say that in all the months i have been scanning the posts at the Cat I have seen less than 10% that I would associate with any underhanded impulse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: WyoWoman Date: 19 Mar 00 - 04:09 PM Caution does not equal cynicism... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Cyberspace Friendships From: MK Date: 19 Mar 00 - 03:29 PM Based on my online experiences (since being involved with electronic bulletein board systems aka BBSs throughout the 80s and graduating to the Internet in the early 90s) I was already acustomed to the chat and message thing..in fact when I first got onto the Internet, it was sort of yawn for me --like a B I G bulletein board, or to paraphrase Bruce Springstein a gazillion channels with nothin' on --. I can however see the enourmous appeal and excitement of it to relative newcomers of this technology and can look no further to my own parents who are seniors and are absolutely enthralled at doing geniological searches, and corresponding with relatives via email half way around the world, and of course the web has blossomed in the past 5 years, where it is now the quintessential resource utility for whatever you can imagine. Can't beat that. As for cyber friendships, IMHO those who are introverted and shy, and may not be the most effective communicators in person, thrive and tend to take the online cyber-relationships more seriously than others who perhaps have a more affable an engaging, and OPEN personality in real life. People in cyber space will reveal the most intimate details, sides of personalities they'd never openly show, and thoughts to strangers whom they have never met, in a relatively quick period of time, perhaps because the anonymity of being behind a computer, shields them, from a tangeble in-person encounter. ...They'll tell you anything except how much money they earn a year. 8-) If one accepts the fact that the internet and those that frequent it, are a microcosm of society in general, with all its faults and idiosyncracies of human contact, then it is no different being online than what we encounter in our day to day lives... ...BUT, as was stated here earlier, people can and choose to reveal selectively only those aspects of their personalities that they want the recipient to have, and from that formulate an opinion on the sender. This of course can be very manipulative, and sometimes with very deadly repercussions, as in pedophiles in chat rooms, Neo Nazi groups attempting to recruit new members, cyber-romances ending badly or worse upon human contact, stalking, etc..etc.. Personally, life is out THERE --in the real world, with real human contact and exchanges on a day to day basis. The internet is a utility and a communications device not unlike the telephone, but it is even less personal than talking on the phone...because you have this additional buffer of anonymity, and many capitalize on it... If you are spending more than a few hours each day, on the internet and don't bother to eat, exercise proper hygene, and basically neglect the outside world, because you have only a sense of ''belonging'' and ''completenes'' when online --you have a very serious socal problem requiring treatment. I believe the professionals call this ''cyber-psychosis''. I would be willing to venture that there are at least a few individuals (without naming names) on this forum who suffer from this. (See a shrink and get some counselling.) Mudcat would appear in many ways to be the exception rather than the norm, as far as the type of people who frequent it. For the most part, it does seem to be what you see is what you get...and people would not be opening their homes for get-togethers with their cyber-friends, unless there was an underlying gut feeling that those that would come, are in fact decent, caring, honest people....but to me this is still a very risky and somewhat naive (but well-intentioned) gesture, and safety precautions should be taken. I personally wouldn't do it, unless I knew exactly who was coming, and, if there were strangers coming that I had never met in person, I would want someone who I've already met and trust from a previous cyber relationship and who knows the strangers well enough to vouch for them. Anyone I didn't know, or have advance warning that they were coming, wouldn't get in. Cyber friends should be explored on a unique and individual basis, and using all the normal screening criterion, defense mechanisms and street smarts one would apply in real life. A loser online, is a loser in real life. ..and always go with you gut instinct when formulating impressions of those you meet online. Ulterior motives are rampant. My .001 cents anyway, and I recognize the cynicism of this post.
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