Playing open strings OK on fiddle?

Subject: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:00 PM

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: jeffp
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:07 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:12 PM

I've been teaching myself fiddle for about eight months, and I can play dozens of tunes at a reasonable speed and mediocre level of quality. I have gotten into the habit of always using open strings when open strings will do the job.

Just this week I went to my first fiddle lesson (from a self-taught Cape Breton fiddler of many years) and he told me that I should learn to play the D, A, and E with my little finger instead of using the open strings.

I'm torn as to whether or not to adopt this advice. On the one hand, I don't want to do it because it would mean going back to square one; I would have to relearn all my fingerings because I would have to hold my hand differently in order to reach the little finger notes, and I would have to start again with all my tunes. On the other hand, I plan on playing the fiddle and playing it well for the rest of my life, so I don't want to limit myself with a short-sighted approach.

What do you think? Is it necessary to give up my open strings in order to become a good fiddler?

Thanks, Marion

PS You may want to say that I should do what the teacher says because that's necessary in order to stay with this teacher, but I don't think that's true in this case... maybe because he's self-taught himself, his approach is quite informal and his attitude seems to be "This is what I would suggest, take it or leave it."

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:13 PM

Thanks Jeffp... my first attempt failed and you answered before I could spell out what my question was. But I hope you're right.

Marion

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:29 PM

Yes, opens are ok, but you really should learn to use 4th finger too. Sorry you started out with your hand in the wrong place, but see now how it limits you? Many times using 4th finger is the fasted way to do it, like with grace notes. Sometimes you want to keep the same tone color, usually on slow airs, laments, etc. so you use the 4th finger. The open string has a more ringing tone, and will sustain longer than a fingered 4th. Get crackin' and learn both of them, you will be a more versatile fiddler for your efforts!

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: jeffp
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 02:53 PM

I was, of course, giving a quick answer to a quick question. According to what I've been taught, fiddlers use open strings a lot, while violinists are taught never to use them. That being said, I can also recommend learning to use the 4th finger as well. It's useful for cuts, rolls, and other ornaments, as well as giving you another option for those notes. There, that's the longer answer.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 03:48 PM

Good advice. Learn both. The more versatile you can be the better. My orchestra/violin teacher would have killed us for using open strings, but my dad always did when playing for dances, so I learned both and have never regretted it.

Also, following your teacher's advice is a sign of respect for her/his abilities and experiences.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Petr
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 04:08 PM

Yes, you should definitely use both, I tend to be lazy sometimes and use the open string whenever I can. But there is an advantage to playing the open string as often the playing of the open string sets of sympathetic ringing of other strings (which is common in folk fiddle playing and not in classical) Its interesting that your teacher has a cape breton background as its a very common ornament in cb style to play both the 4th finger and open string at the same time. Also you need your 4th finger on the e string (for the b). I cant stress enough how important it is to keep your hand straight (rather than flat like it's supporting the fiddle- your hand should not be used to support the violin you should be able to do that with your chin and shoulder a good shoulder rest (eg Kuhn) will really help. But do whatever you want of course. Have fun and Keep fiddling. Petr.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 04:08 PM

As a "violinist" I was taught that going up you used opens, coming down, or for only the one note up, use 4th. As a fiddler, I do as I damn well please, and whatever is easiest and sounds best.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 04:17 PM

I'd certainly agree with that; being able to do both will give you a lot more options.  I had the devil of a time getting my little finger to work properly, but exercises to strengthen it can help; somebody recommended holding a little rubber ball between palm and finger and squeezing gently from time to time.  It actually worked, and stood in for worry-beads if I happened to be somewhere I couldn't smoke.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 05:04 PM

I'm told (can't do it yet, myself) that it's easier to play in unusual keys if you play in 2nd and 3rd position, and therefore you need to use that 4th finger. In other words, if you have the fingering patterns down, rather than depending on open strings, you can just move from key to key and string to string more easily.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 05:09 PM

That is true, Barbara, and 3rd pos. is for some reason easier than 2nd. but it takes a long time to learn to shift into the right place and learn the fingerings. There is a section of "Jerusalem Ridge" that should be played in 2nd, but I haven't mastered it yet. To really get any position other than 1st, lots of DAILT practice is necessary, and I just don't do it anymore.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Dave T
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:05 PM

I've been taking lessons for about 6 months now. My instructor always reminds me to use my 4th finger. Also, he says playing out of the third position is good practice for hand and wrist position since it's kinda hard to flatten your hand out and still get at the G and D strings. On the other hand, I was listening to an instructional tape of Kevin Burke and he commented that Irish fiddlers tend to use a lot of open strings rather than the 4th finger so there you go. I agree with the others...learn both and use whichever is easiest for a given situation.
Dave T

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:14 PM

I hear ya, Sorcha! Hate 2nd position, love 3rd, but rarely use anything but 1st, if I can help it, except of course on the e string!

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:25 PM

I agree with everyone who says to learn both. There are some tunes in which you have to use the 4th finger to get a B on the E string. Some tunes (thinking of a three-part reel with a bugger of a 2nd part - what the blazes is the name?) go from an E down to a G pretty fast and I find them impossible to play up to speed without using my 4th finger on the A string. If you do double-stops at all, the 4th finger comes in handy. And you can't get any vibrato with an open string. Having said that, I'll also admit I hardly ever use my 4th finger on anything but the E string.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:30 PM

What has been said so far also applies to tenor banjo and other instruments. I prefer to avoid using my little finger as much as possible but I have another reason that I have not seen mentioned in this thread for doing so. Occasionally, I find that playing a note that way rather than using the open string can simplify the picking and therefore make life easier for me. Does the same apply to bowing?

Jon

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:34 PM

Jon:

It certainly does!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: jeffp
Date: 27 Mar 00 - 06:35 PM

I suppose it could, Jon. It could allow you to avoid changing the angle of the bow to play the adjacent string. Also, there is a subtle difference in the sound of a finger noting a string and a string change in the bowing. That being said, I just do whatever my fingers choose to. I'm not good enough yet to focus on things like that. *BG*

jeffp

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 01:45 PM

Thanks all. This was very helpful.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 28 Mar 00 - 03:51 PM

Yes, playing open strings is OK. And yes, I do it too. But (and the caveat is important) there may be times when it is inconvenient to play the open string, for instance when the melody goes back down the scale and it would be, therefore, easier to eliminate an unnecessary string crossing. Also, you can get some nice tone coloring if you play a fingered note with the fourth finger, with the adjacent open string, example, finger an A on the D string, and play the open A string at the same time. At phrase endings where it is practical, this is very effective.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,radriano
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:58 AM

I've always thought that playing open strings was one of the main differences between playing a violin and playing a fiddle. Since most fiddle tunes are almost exclusively in first position using the fourth finger is almost optional. I also agree with the notion of sympathetic vibration that playing open strings gives you. That being said, a lot depends on the melody of the tune being played. Sometimes using the fourth finger instead of an open string makes a passage easier to play. The style you're playing in also makes a difference. You can't get certain sounds or effects using closed fingering exclusively.

radriano

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:16 PM

No, I don't think so, radriano. Here in the midwest, although most tunes are indeed played in first position, there is quite a large body of tunes in C, F, or even Bb that require the use of the fourth finger. See RP Christessen's "Missouri Old Time Fiddler's Repertoiry" for examples. This brings up one of my pet peeves. Why don't more fiddlers learn to play in singer's keys? I have begun exploring F, Bb, and Eb, and have found them not that difficult when the index finger is thought of as a capo for the fiddle. If you think that way, you quickly realize that the fingering positions repeat themselves, and you will find fimiliar patterns in different places on the fingerboard. Try playing a first position Bb major scale starting on the A string, and see what I mean. The finger pattern will be identical to the A major scale.

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: GUEST,radriano
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:51 PM

Good point, Soddy. I know very little about American fiddle music as my focus is Irish music and while it is true that tunes in C, F, Bb and other keys exist in Irish music as well I wonder how many of those tunes were written after dance music ceased to be played exclusively for dancers and became listening music as well.

Now I'm not claiming to be an authority on Irish music either but am just presenting my view on the subject. It does seem that the older tunes, in Irish music, seem to mostly be in D, G, or A. Personally, I'd like to be able to play in all keys but I just don't have the technique at this point.

As far as singing goes, I'm a singer myself and I sing a song where it suits my voice. A lot of times that means keys like Ab or F# which won't stop a guitar player with a capo but will stop a fiddler dead in his tracks. Of course, if you want my opinion, some songs should be sung without any accompanyment.

radriano

Subject: RE: Playing open strings OK on fiddle?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 06:45 PM

Actually, you can get vibrato on an open string.  (See Jeri's post earlier) -finger the next string up, an octave higher than the note you're bowing.  Apply vibrato to that.  It's not quite the same, but it does work.

Malcolm