Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music

Subject: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From:
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 07:08 PM

Hi

I am doing Post-graduate work in the field ofTourette's Syndrome. I know that Dr. Sacks has well documented evidence that it can be treated by listening to music.

I am almost sure that there has not been a study undertaken on the effect different types of music have for sufferers of this affliction. Classical music over Death Metal etc.
Take Folk music for example.

Is one a natural manifestation of the other?
Are there certain professions or hobbies that attract us on a level that is, so to speak, sub subliminal? Are those '...facial and other body tics....accompanied by grunts and compulsive utterances....' all part of the Folk Thing?
And what of those "Hey you, Barman, Stop scratching your **** and get me that bloody pint. And wash your hands first!"?

Who is to say?
Does anyone have any thoughts, or experiences to share? All insights into this fascinating subject would be appreciated.
Thanking you in advance Frank Fellowes.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: jeffp
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 07:17 PM

I can offer one datapoint of anecdotal evidence. My mother plays and teaches recorder in Florida. One of her studens is a young adult with Tourette's. Playing music seems to have a beneficial effect on his condition. For some reason, it doesn't surprise me. Singing can help stutterers. I don't know if there's a connection there or not, I'm just rambling. I'll be interested to see what other people's experiences are.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 07:24 PM

You may have better luck with this by also posting to the Tourette's Newsgroup (sorry, still can't do the blue clicky thing). A high school friend of mine was a Touretter but I don't recall his taste in music being anyany different from his friends & from what my kid listens to (Yuck) I don't see his taste different from his pals, either. I'd think (speaking from experience but not as a Touretter) that many, somehow, someway & to some degree, find different ways to self treat or self medicate our conditions in a way that's helps us to cope, it would be great if music in some way is a help. Love to find some back up to what you're asking. Thanks, Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 08:15 PM

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 08:50 PM

...hmmmmm...some more rambling thoughts...

I read that in Tourette's it is believed that an abnormal metabolism of the neurotransmitters dopamine and serotonin are involved with the disorder. That would send me in the direction of Parkinson's research and depression research.

Also, I read that people with Tourette's are more likely to have:

Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)
Difficulties with Impulse Control (disinhibition)
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD)
Various Learning Disabilities (such as dyslexia)
Various Sleep Disorders

The learning disabilities would suggest looking at corpus collosum (split-brain) research. As jeffp said, music seems to help stutterers. Is that the right brain influence, or is it relaxation? I think I also read somewhere that Tourette folks benefit from relaxation. You might look at various types of relaxation/biofeedback etc.

There are probably studies about various types of music and the effect on learning/sleep/brain waves etc. (the Mozart effect)

This really is a big topic. A Tourette newsgroup or bulletin board would probably be one of your most helpful resources.

Mary

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 09:57 PM

Mary writes: ''Also, I read that people with Tourette's are more likely to have:

Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)
Difficulties with Impulse Control (disinhibition)
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD)
Various Learning Disabilities (such as dyslexia)
Various Sleep Disorders''





.....all of which more than qualify to become a card carrying member of this illustrious Forum.....as demonstrated so aptly by...well by now you know who they all are...

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From:
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 11:18 PM

Hi again.

I'm sorry if I was a little vague. Yes, I know about the bulletin boards and the newsgroups, and I do use them as well.
As you point out, Mary, it is a rather all-encompassing subject. And as a behaviorial psychologist I have touched on most of the subjects you have brought up. The main focus of my research lies in it's relationship to folk music, and the effects (or otherwise) thereof.

I have for example noted certain 'involuntary' body movements associated with the practise, and appreciation of folk music. Random, incoherent mouth noises that do not serve any obvious purpose, yet seem to transmit some sort of egregious, sublime communication to the receivers.
The idea that such a kind of communication could be linked to Tourette's, and indeed the other way around is not a subject that has yet been looked into with much depth, and I find that researching any 'material' for my thesis consists of long peroids away from home, sitting in places strange to me, and observing people engaging in behavior that does not seem to be consistent with that which they portray in other controlled situations.

The idea of a temporary state is something Gilles de la Tourette did not expand on. The school of thought which contends that certain kinds of music bring on differing states and degrees of Tourette's is housed well off the development zone, to use an city planner's idiom.

The reason that I posted to The Mudcat Cafe was because a colleague referred me here, and I count nothing out when it comes to researching this. "If you are not in you cannot win" I thank you all so far, and hope that this might narrow the subject down a little.
You have been very helpful
Thank you again.

Frank Fellowes

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Night Owl
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 11:25 PM

Frank...I work with brain injured adult women...one of whom has Tourettes and a variety of other medical/emotional problems. Suggestion for your research...buy Mudcatter Musicman's cd "Farewell" (available directly from him or from Folk Legacy) and watch the magic happen. The only other piece of music I've seen have such an immediate dramatic effect on the patients is Bill Staines-"Alaskan Suite". I have found, for these particular women...that some folk music .. if the instrumentation is uncomplicated..(and am beginning to think,if the singer is a baritone, but not sure) helps. Classical selections seem to overstimulate one of the women..(still trying different selections). In my experience, Musicman's and Bill Staine's cd's stop a variety of "episodes" within seconds. All of the women are very susceptible to background noise levels (dishwasher, refrigerator motors etc.) and they are absolute sponges with music. I'm VERY interested in your research and how much you've done so far. I continue to feel we're missing something important here, that if it were studied more definitively, could be formalized into treatment plans.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Night Owl
Date: 11 Apr 00 - 11:36 PM

Frank...missed your last post while I was posting. Will send you an email later tonight if your interested in more information.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 01:07 AM

Well, you asked for thoughts, as well as clinical observations, so I am tempted to offer my $.02. I believe that the remedy brought about by certain kinds of music on certain kinds of cases generally occurs because it entrains super-linguistic or purely conceptual understanding, in the same way that sometimes a delightful visual harmony will suddenly draw out a severely introverted person. I am more inclined to believe that this is a top down effect -- that our highest aesthetic and spiritual sensibilities are involved and that in more complex and ambiguous symbol system such as language and gestures this order of thought has to "build down" through mental and cranial echelons to function fully.

It seems to me that these latter levels are much more stressful to operate when one is in a condition of decline (physical or emotional or other). Perhaps it is more a case of the sheer aesthetic and simple simplicity of good music, freed from layers of meaning or right or wrong calculations, drawing out the highest abilities of the individual.

It may be true that while folk music often involves a lot of language and therefore might involve heavier effort to receive, and be less effective than harmonious Baroque music, for example, that it does entail an emotional simplicity and muscial clarity and regularity usually that would make it more assimilable than something more cacaphonous.

Well, I guess that's a nickel's worth, but I won't charge ya for writing it if you won't charge me for reading it! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Margo
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 01:41 AM

Frank, I know you're talking about Tourette's syndrome, but much of what I've read in this thread is a description of my daughter, who has autism. Her autism is classic, and her one sensory defensiveness is her hearing. She gets overwhelmed on a loud busy playground. Yet at home she will get three kinds of music going at once. (It was suggested to me that it creates "white noise" for her) She likes my playing music, and we have seen a calming effect it can have on her. But like Night Owl says, it isn't all music. Some calm her, some can hype her.

I did see Dr. Sacks speak, and he told us a story about a man with Tourette's syndrome. Dr. Sacks was able to help the man control his ticking with drugs, but it took the creative edge off of his sax playing. So the man would take the drugs during the week to be calm at work, and was drug free on the weekends so he could play in the jam sessions. His family had to put up with his dual personalities!

I don't know that my daughter's hearing is so very acute, or if she just can't tune things out. There is that inability to control the neurological functions of the senses. Is that the same with ticks? Who knows. Yours, Margo

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Jacob B
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 09:48 AM

Frank,

You said:

"I have for example noted certain 'involuntary' body movements associated with the practise, and appreciation of folk music. Random, incoherent mouth noises that do not serve any obvious purpose, yet seem to transmit some sort of egregious, sublime communication to the receivers."

Your question about the effect of folk music necessarily brings up a very old topic: What Is Folk Music? This is a question that has been discussed to death in many places, including many Mudcat threads, and I'm not suggesting that we discuss it here. However, you seem to have an idea of what you mean by the term, and I think it would help if you defined it more precisely. After all, Scottish bagpipe music and Tuvan throat singing are both undeniably forms of folk music, but I don't think either of them is what you were thinking of. At what kind of 'folk music' performance have you seen these involuntary body movements and random, incoherent mouth noises?

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:00 AM

Frank--By all means, get the CD Night Owl mentioned. It's name is Farewell and is at Folk Legacy (folklegacy.com) here, and it's exceptionally beautiful. Bonnie Doon (Ye Banks and Braes) almost always brings tears to my eyes. I discovered it as a young child, and have always gone back to it when I was in a melancholy mood. Also, "Down by the Salley Gardens" is on the CD. I just discovered it a few years ago. (BTW, a salley is a willow tree.) I think Max played "Air for the Island" on one of the radio shows in the last few months. Maybe someone else here can explain about the various instruments. These are all "slow waltzes and celtic airs" played on acustic guitar, whistle?, piano, etc.

Mary

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:13 AM

Oh yes... you can hear Bonnie Doon here, and Down By the Salley Gardens here. Both are Barry Taylor's midis at Lesley Nelson's site.

But buy the CD!

Mary

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Mbo
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 10:41 AM

Just a suggestion, The Cast does a simply gorgeous version of "Bonnie Doon"--if it didn't already bring a tear tae your e'e, this one will!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: SDShad
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 01:05 PM

I wonder about a similar connection between music and strokes. A good friend's mother had a stroke in January, and at first she couldn't speak, but could sing. At first, they thought she was just singing nonsense syllables, but then our friend realized she was singing in German--slurry, but German--which is her first language.

So then they actively encouraged her to sing. I hear it's helping with her speech recovery.

Chris

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: BlueJay
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 01:37 PM

WOW- what an incredible thread. As a health care worker, I've been given ideas which just may help my clients, be they Gilles de la Tourette, Stroke or other disorders. Thank you all!

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 02:12 PM

...more thoughts....I didn't realize there would be so much interest here. Since I have MS I constantly hear of new research and ideas from concerned friends, and I also follow research news. Frank, if you're a researcher, I know you are aware of all the quackery and "well-meaning" advice that often just doesn't meet with strict research controls. That being said, I think you're on the right track to consider all ideas with an open mind.

In MS therapy, I've heard that Tai Chi and horseback riding have been looked at for improving physical movements.

Since Tourette's seems to have a significant genetic component, is anyone looking at all the new gene research? In the last two years, a subcategory of MS called Heritary Biochemical Multiple Sclerosis (HBMS) has been researched and written up in Human Genetics Journal (I think). This appears to be a heme synthesis disruption and has a strong genetic link to people of Scottish descent. If you're interested I can find more info. I think some people have been treated metabolically.

Back to Tourette's, stroke, brain damage and music. I really feel that learning theory would lend the most insight into understanding the effect music has on various people, regardless of brain damage or not. I've lost touch with all my resources in this field, but I think you would find them under educational psychology/learning theory.

Keep us informed.

Mary

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Bert
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 02:18 PM

A year or so ago we had a couple of threads on music therapy that might be useful here and here

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 04:58 PM

Unfortunately, I know very little about Tourette's, having known only known one person who had it, and read only a little. What follows is only speculation. (I must say, I smelled a "troll" when I first read your message, but will ignore that possiblility.)

The nonsense syllables in folk songs (if I understand correctly, the "diddly-aye-duram-dinkums") are probably more difficult to sing than words that have meaning. Maybe you meant "whoopin' and a-hollerin'?" I'm not sure what you mean by "involuntary body movements." Foot tapping? Rocking ("chair dancing")? The urge to stick one's finger in one's ear when singing without accompaniment?

It would help if you gave some examples of what you meant by involuntary body movements and random, incoherent mouth noises in relationship to folk music.

If it's true that nervousness can exacerbate Tourette's, then any music that has a calming effect, or draws a person into it, would help. Everybody does what people with Tourettes do. People who don't have Tourette's can usually stop whenever they want. If you're suggesting that some folks with Tourette's started the noises and movements way-back-when, and others copied them...anything's possible.

Mary, I'd be interested on the article you mentioned, but not if it's too much trouble.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 05:53 PM

Hi Jeri. Here's the link to Bobbie Rooney's HBMS page. If you follow the links at the bottom of her second page, you'll see this quote from Medinex:

Last year over 17 million Americans searched the Internet looking for health and medical information. Unfortunately, over 70% of what they found was either wrong or grossly misleading according to studies from Johns Hopkins and Ohio State University.

This site is careful to provide accurate info.

Mary

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Helen
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 08:27 PM

NightOwl,

The psychic Mudcat transmission line is working again.

The other night I was feeling particularly stressed and instead of reaching for my 5 CD set of Vivaldi's Sacred Choral Works, which is a sure sign that I am in need of calming, balancing music, I played musicman's Farewell CD. I decided then & there to add this one to my Vivaldi set as my emergency stress relief kit. I was going to post this in a thread today to sing the praises of musicman's beautiful CD but you beat me to it.

Helen

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 08:42 PM

Would this be the right Farewell, Helen or Night Owl?

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Helen
Date: 12 Apr 00 - 08:56 PM

McGrath,

That's the one. Worth every penny. Buy a few and hand them round as presents. I love it.

Helen

PS Loved your song today on Mudcat Radio too - the Mudcat Came Back. Well done!!

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Night Owl
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 02:26 AM

Helen....I think the CD "Farewell" is absolutely a stress reducer/eliminator....and have no question that there's a volume of music that helps individuals to relax. But I have yet to find the words to articulate the medical stuff I see happen....every once in a while...with a very specific piece of music. My ongoing frustration is the inability to find the "common denominators". To my ear...."Farewell" and "Alaskan Suite" have absolutely no similarity...musically. (I hope Frank checks back here!!)

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 03:29 AM

Is one what, a natural manifestation of the other?

Gee.... grunts, ticks and compulsive utterances, are not, in my experience, strictly limited to the folk music genre, have a listen to Glen Gould when he plays.

or maybe a little Poke Salad Annie by J.J. Cale.......good stuff Frank...you might learn to enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Helen
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 08:24 PM

Night Owl, I don't know what the similarity would be between Vivaldi's Choral Works and the Farewell CD either, but I know they work for me. I don't know the Alaskan Suite at all.

I read on another site a couple of years ago about Baroque music being a good tool for improving the function of the brain. I'll see if I can find it again and let you know what is there.

Helen

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: GUEST,rellick56
Date: 13 Apr 00 - 10:14 PM

I was waiting in line at an airport for half an hour and finally struck up a conversation with the guy behind me. He had headphones on his ears and for some reason I thought he was listening to music. When he took them off he jerked a lot. Said he had Tourete's.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 11:37 AM

While some of what follows may not seem to relate directly to the subject of this thread, I think some of you may find it of interest.

In my brother's published article, New Age Music: An Expanded Definition he writes, "Every object and living entity has an essential tone which it emits. This is its note -- its characteristic vibration. Music can be used to neutralize, enhance, or nullify such vibrations. In fact, experiments have been conducted along those lines in the past. Ultrasound, used by today's doctors, is one limited and partial use of this power of sound."

He also notes, "It is noteworthy that the Amerindian medicine men and ancient Egyptians, among others, realized that man's negative thoughts, words, and actions (including wrong use of magical chants and music) affected planetary conditions, even to the extent of causing destructive droughts, plagues, earthquakes, and storms. In fact, it was believed literally, as explained in the Book of Genesis, that man had dominion over his sphere, and right use of music was a key element of his power."

In one of his books, Earthquake Prevention Through MetaMusic he writes about the relationship betweeen sacred geometry and music: "in esoteric music we have such things as planetary scales -- tones that equal certain planets; intervals that equate the distances of the planets from the Sun and each other; intervals and chordal structures that represent astrological aspects; and tonal zodiacs -- certain cycles of tones rotating around the zodiac. The main idea is: musical tones, scales, and chords, by the principles of harmonics and the laws of correspondences which most msytics are aware of, can actuate, in our microcosm, the macrocosmic forces they symbolize and are related to. Musical vibrations and harmony, dissonance, etc. are related to each planet's actual vibration and magnetic field as well as the geometrical angles formed by the planets as they revolve around the Sun."

And, "...a measurement in sacred geometry relates to a musical measurement such as a certain scale...An expert on the subject is Hugh Harlston, Jr. who has investigated the units of meaurement at Teotihuacan, esp. what is called the Processional Way (misnamed the Way of the Dead.) He discovered the distances ...between the Sun and Moon pyramids could be taken as a huge guitar string...sounding a basic vibtration. The frets along this string being the reflecting pools, Harleston found would produce a musical scale, but a strange one to our ears. It is a scale based on dividing the octave by the twelfth root of two. He calls this twelfth root of two the Teotihuacan constant, which divided the octave into THIRTEEN equally spaced notes. This constant, 1.059, he found controls frequencies of sound and light.

"It is important to note that a musical scale of proportionate notes corresponds to walls, steps, and buildings of the Processional, citadels, and the Sun and Moon pyramids. This scale is called Sound 13 and produces a weird, exotic effect on the listener. (Mexican composer Juan Carillo used this scale.)"

© 1987, 1990 Delton L. Hudson

There is much more as to how music can relate, scientifically and esoterically, to one's time of birth, etc. and, there is also a good bibliography, if anyone is interested.

When he presented his earthquake prevention theory/book at the 1994(5?, sorry can't remember which) International Forum for New Science, it was very well received and he is working on a much more in-depth, expanded version for a publisher whom he met there.

Thanks,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: GUEST,Mrrzy-at-work
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 12:38 PM

Some random thoughts from graduate school in cognitive psych:

1)Rhythm often helps people with speech production problems, a subset of motor processing. Stutterers are a good case in point, but even in aphasia, if you have a productive "block" disorder (Broca's aphasia, productive aphasia, nonfluent aphasia, etc) swinging your arms or stomping a foot will get you past it, often. The reasoning is that the rhythmic aspects of motor processes are handled through different pathways, more cerebellar than cerebral and more right-brain than left-, than the motor process itself, whether rhythmical or not.

2)Melodies, poetry, and the combination thereof we call lyrics seem to have more right-sided representations that the meanings of the words embedded in those lyrics, which are generally "kept" on the left. Thus aphasics with left-brain damage, who might not be able to speak a sentence, can often still sing songs. In fact, the more songs and poems you know, the more resistant you can make yourself to possible speech problems from left-side lesions, strokes and so on. That is because if you want to say something and can't generate a new sentence for it, if there is a previously-memorized lyric or poem containing the concept you need, you might be able to get to THAT and still communicate.

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 06:06 PM

I don't know about tourettes but as a child I stuttered and singing helped that immensely. I believ although my memory is a bit vague on the details that that was part of my speech therapy. I wouldn't be surprised to find it (music) helps with a myriad of ailments mental and physical. Have a great weekend all, Neil

Subject: RE: Help: Tourette's Syndrome and Folk Music
From:
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 07:35 PM

hi i have tourettes am 55 and play a martin jumbo j 40 not to many people ask about tourettes and music good question. only time idont have tics is when i playnmy folf songs. i know this sounds contrived but it appears to be true in my case pat sorry but no spellcheck here