Elian

Subject: RE: Elian
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:56 PM

A lot of innocent people (mostly the children) were killed in Waco. If there'd been shooting in this action the people killed would probably have been pretty innocent too.

The political sharks manipulating things to keep their hands on power in Miami and lay their hands on power again in Havana some day would have been well out of range of any gunfire.

THIS THREAD IS STARTING TO GROW RATHER FAST - so I've started a new one Elian2 (Otherwise it gets too long for some people to be able to get it to load on thweir computers.)

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:41 PM

McGrath...re Waco. I have just as little sympathy for the Miami relatives of Elian Gonzales as I do for David Koresh or anyone else who would knowingly violate the law, and then put children in the line of fire to further their own narrow and lop-sided political agendas.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: JenEllen
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:20 PM

My main concern is for this child. The adults responsible seem to think that anything is acceptable so long as the child has access to a psychologist afterwards? He was given a physical and psychological evaluation on the plane going to meet his father this morning??? Like all of that is going to make this little boy's nightmares of screaming and guns just disappear? This poor little soul has to wander around in shock, when he should be out somewhere getting grass stains in his jeans or somenthing. My only hope is that the nightmares fade quickly. ~Elle

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:00 PM

I think I'll stay away from Minami tonight.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:52 PM

So thank God noone got killed in the process. But I also think, thank God Elian is back with his own family - when I see the pictures of him with his father and his brother and his stepmother, I can't see this as anything but a rescue.

As to the way it was done, I think 'spaw is probably right in saying it could have been handled better and quicker, and more low key. But then if it had gone wrong we'd have all been saying that it should have been done more cautiously, and not rushed.

Once it had got to this stage I'd think that any attempt to do it in a more open way would inevitably meant shots being fired and people getting killed. And I suppose in a country where there are more guns than there are people, anybody taking part in an operation like this is going to be thinking in terms of armed resistance. At least they didn't do an Amadou-style execution or a Waco massacre this time.

As for Cuba - it's clearly a lot poorer than the United States(40 years economic blockade has had its effects...) But looking at the streets of Havana and the streets of Miami on CNN just now, I might be a bit hesitant about preferring Miami.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:41 PM

I for one applaud the government for putting an end to the standoff. The Cuban-Americans holding Elian were doing so in direct violation of the rule of law. I am certainly glad no one was injured. I would hope that Elian's Dad would decide to stay in the US, but for many reasons, I feel that he will not. As some have said, Castro's days are numbered, and I am sure his regime will collapse like a card-house with his death. Perhaps, if he returns to Cuba, Elian will grow up to take a leading role in a new Democratic direction for his country.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:18 PM

One thing "The Government" could have done is informed our guests in "Little Havana" that those who are not US citizens would be deported if they broke any laws.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,Janet Reno
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:02 PM

I'm sorry it had to come to this, but it was time for the drunken uncles to, as we say in the Justice Department, "Waco and smell the coffee."

Subject: RE: Elian
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 01:27 PM

In the British case: the children are in England with the nannie-turned-stepmom-turned-widowed-stepmom-now remarried, so they live with a stepmom and stepfather.

Their biological mother, the one they lived with for the first few years of their lives, was found fit and given back custody of the boys, IN A US COURT OF LAW, when their father was still alive. He only had temporary custody of them when he died in the accident and should have returned them after having them for only three or so months.

England has totally ignored that finding. The stepmom promised everyone involved that she would leave the boys with their paternal grandmother, in the States, when they were to go together for the father's funeral in Hawaii. Instead, with the apparent collusion of some US military officers, she took them back, first to Germany, THEN to England.

Because England is a powerful ally, this mother will never receive any government assistance in regaining her children. She is suing our government for the alleged actions of the military.

Anyone who would like to read more indepth articles on the whole sordid affair can click here for a link to the articles archived at the Cheyenne Tribune-Eagle.

As for this morning's action, I am sorry to differ with two Mudcatters whom I feel so much respect and love for: Banjer and Spaw. I have not looked at any images. I have listened to several reports on NPR, which, compared to most news reports,a s far as I am concerned, seems to be more balanced and unbiased, than mainstream.

They reported a published article in a Florida newspaper, yesterday, quoted several veterans who claimed to be armed and ready to give their lives to keep the government out of Elian's great-uncles' house, which they supposedly ahd surrounded. The Miami Cubans had 3 months of negotiating in which they could have agreed to respect the law of their adopted homeland, and allowed Elian's father to at least visit, while things were worked out in court and counseling. The threat of violence and the fright of this early morning's raid surely lies on their shoulders, as well as our government's. I mean this in no way as an excuse for the tactics used, but only to express the opinion that Elian's Americna-of-Cuban descent relatives are as guilty as the government for bringing the whole damn mess to this point.

I don't believe anyone involved truly give a goddamn about Elian. He is a pawn of politics and will ever suffer from the effects for the rest of his life.

One last thing: it is easy to sit in judgement, in our chairs at home and criticise and call elected officials and their appointees names and curse the "government". The government IS us and I would like to hear any ideas as to what any of you may have done differently. And, I do mean that sincerely. I am not being facetious in this request.

katthoroughlydisgustedatallofit

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 01:04 PM

Calmer now--seems like most of us, and most Americans, too, (from the abc news forum) feel that yes indeed, Elian should be with his father but a LOT of people feel that this was just a stupid way to do it. Children are removed from homes every day in this country, and it doesn't take assault weapons at dawn to do it. Just a court order, a Family Services person, and an Officer of the Court, armed or not. In daylight! And yes, something SHOULD have been done months ago. And, to The Yank, I don't recall that either Vicki or Sam Weaver shot at anybody? Poor terrified little boy. Now, the news media is saying that neither Juan or Elian may be shipped back to Cuba........

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:34 PM

That Cuban/? bunch in Miami was all for operating according to the law, until they didn't agree with the law. Then they bragged they would violate the law to achieve what they wanted.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:37 AM

CHILD RESCUED FROM KIDNAPPERS BY FEDERAL MARSHALLS!!

I for one am proud to be an American this morning!
BR> I'm really fed up with the government bashing by the 'black helicopters are going to round us all up and submit us to U.N. domination, yadda yadda yadda' halfwits. Ruby Ridge? Hey, you take potshots at the FBI, please don't whine when they return fire.

The Cuban-American community are the kidnappers here and the sleazy Florida & other politicians prostituting themselves for the Cuban-American Wacko vote are the bad guys - NOT the government which has finally done what it SHOULD have done back in January.

If Janet Reno erred at all, it was by bending over backward to try to accommodate these @$$holes in the first place.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Victoria H.
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:12 AM

What I want to know is what happened to "the child's best interests" this morning? Was this not exactly the type of violently traumatic experience our country claimed to want to protect him from in communist Cuba? If America thought to prevent the child from harm (both psychological and physical) perhaps they ought to have thought twice about bursting in with weapons in the wee hours of the morning? I agree with fellow American posting here - the way this child has been used and manipulated is a disgrace.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:20 AM

Up until now, I have stayed out of this one, because I really did not have an opinion--I have not talked to Elian, or his Papi, or his relatives. I damn sure am not in a positon to decide what is best for him, but this just takes the cake!I am APPALLED at the stupidity of our government!! And NOT proud to have to claim American this morning!!Only by the Grace of God did this not turn into another Ruby Ridge!!Isn't there ANYthing ordinary Americans can do about this??

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:57 AM

So Gary, basically you are saying that right or wrong, the Federal government has the ultimate right above all else to do what they want? Do you think that after this they will obey the Atlanta court ruling that the child must not be removed from this country until proper rulings are handed down? Have you seen the CNN news films on TV? Sorry, what small respect I had for our government just flew out the window. They played right into CASTRO's hands. Chalk up another one for communism! Damn Janet Reno.....I just heard on TV, that Reno bitch saying that "at no time was a weapon pointed at or near the child" this was a voice over a picture of an agent with an assault rifle pointing it at the person holding Elian. Our government is so full of lies it isn't funny...Again, I am not proud to be called an American this morning. Before any wit suggests it, if I could afford it I WOULD get the hell out of this country of two faced politicians. At least in a dictatorship you know what to expect. Damn I'm MAD!!!

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:53 AM

I've been watching this thing that happened this AM from about 5:30 on............The way in which this was done is just about par for the course. Banj and I may disagree on what we believe should have happened from the gitgo, but friends can do that and I respecr his opinion as a man who thinks before speaking and a human being of great compassion. We are both Civil War nuts and I thought this morning, once again, of General James "Pete" Longstreet referring to the decisions made after squandering away great opportunities following Chickamauga. Maybe not exact, but very close, he said, "It seems our lot to wait until all of the good choices have past and then to seize upon the last and worst of them, and then pursue it with great zeal."

This case wouldn't have lasted 48 hours had Cuba not been involved. In all these months, who has done what to whom and for whatever has charges the emotions of all involved and this "snatch" this morning was disgraceful in its execution. They say the Justice Dept. had talked at length about avoiding the very type of thing that has now happened with the "great pictures" that go along with it. Had anyone acted months ago in a rational manner, this would be much less of an issue now. But when it comes to the Justice Dept., that appears to be an alien concept. They might have thought of arresting David Koresch months earlier while he was in town and avoided the whole Waco scene. They might have knocked on Randy Weaver's door or approached him in town and arrested him for failure to appear and Vicki and Sam Weaver might still be alive.

I'm not supporting the beliefs of any of those folks, but in this country we seem to have become so "operation minded" that the old "One Riot-One Ranger" approach has been forgotten. Failure to act decisively and quickly has once again caused undue violence.

Yeah Banj my friend, we may differ on our opinion of this case, but today we both know that "Ol' Pete" was right and we are both ashamed and unproud Americans.

May we all hold only the best thoughts for Elian.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:18 AM

Sure we're allowed our opinions, Banjer. I doubt real friends would lack tolerance for respectful disagreement.

Now for my opinion, which respectfully disagrees with some of yours:

Given that the Feds wanted to carry out the agency and court rulings that apply, it WAS necessary to use some force to get custody of the child. The Miami contingent has made it abundantly clear that they weren't going to cooperate in turning Elian over to his father or to government representatives.

I have no problem with or doubts about the sincerity and passion of Miami Cubans. I do have a problem with their failure to accept that they have (apparently) lost the game they've been playing. The Feds out-maneuvered them on this one. Cries of "foul" ring hollow coming from those who have been knowingly violating the law for weeks.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:01 AM

Because my opinion is different from the popular one of returning the child to a father of whom we know nothing, I have kept out of this discussion. My feeling is that the boy's mother died to bring him to this country and a chance at a life of freedom, and we should give him that chance rather than return him to the political demands of a communist regime.

Now I HAVE to speak up. I am ashamed to be an American this morning! Our Federal government, after much posturing about 'traumatizing' the child has made TOTAL FUCKING ASSHOLES of themselves!! Sending in a armed force to kidnap Elian in the early hours of the day was not necessary!

I realize that this may cost me some friends on this forum, but I am sorry...This is my opinion...or are we not allowed opinions in this country any more?

Banjer, unproud American...Flying my Confederate flag proudly in front of my house.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 09:29 AM

My advice to Fidel is ; kidnap an important American in Havana and make a trade.

JG / FME

Subject: RE: Elian
From: alison
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 09:16 AM

I knew a song would turn up sooner or later and here it is a rip off of The Clash's "should I stay or should I go?"

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,Fidel Castro
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:22 PM

No one gives a damn about this story any longer, including me. Sick to death of hearing about it, reading about it on CNN, and now here.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 04:58 PM

Jim Dizon--and all latter day posters--If no one else reads it--I will!!! I am working on a song, as I said (and you may say, "BFD, a song, who the hell cares?" but I am not just any song writer, I am an obsessive-compulsive) so that means that I have articles on file to support the details that I use in each verse, and, naturally, I check this every couple of hours, and keep this stuff in a file, too--

On the British Nanny custody thing--I think that their are many details that one wants to know--has the state department requested information on there whereabouts? It is a treaty violation for them to withhold information on the location of American Citizens, especially when there is an allegation that they have been taken from the US illegally--Then there is the issue of German involvement-- The childrem may even be in Germany--anyway, I am very interested in anything anyone has to say about this--as well--

Fedele--

You are right, of course--it is an idiot situation--I had mentioned to Shambles that I thought that when children get dragged in to a political conflict, it is an indication that it everyone involved has failed--

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 04:50 PM

Jim.....Although the scenario you set up is compelling, any number can be set up showing the opposite. The problem has several fronts and they are not capable of simple answers. Moving a child as serious ramifications to the child. Period. As a long time foster parent, I can swear to you that the damage is done from the gitgo and the longer a child remains in foster care, the worse it is for them. We have had kids from simply unbelievable circumstances come to us and yet they still (in most cases) love their parents and makeup plenty of excuses to explain whatever actions they take.

But what of my son Michael, age 7? He came to us in foster care at 9 months of age. He was a classic "failure to thrive" child whose bio-mom had plenty of love for him, but absolutely no responsibility. For a year and a half, Michael lived with us and he visited Mom at least three times a week when she could be found. The agency helped her with several places to live, several jobs, and twice helped her to get schooling. We worked with her in every possible way to reunite them, but nothing worked and the agenct filed for Permanent Custody and we filed adoption papers the day the PC was granted. We are the only parents that Michael has known and this is the only home he has ever had. I hope biomom contacts us some day. Last we knew she was in Chicago. But the fact of the law is that if she has gotten her act together and if she wants to do it, she can pursue a lawsuit against the agency and us and attempt to get Michael back. She would lose 999 times out of a thousand, but the law in this state still allows the possibility. That's as ridiculous a thing as I can imagine. The law needs to change.

I guess I am always bothered by anyone saying that a parent knows what is best for a child. They don't, and some parents are children themselves. The child needs to have the security of a stable home and to that we all agree. In the case of poor Elian, he will pay later for the treatment he is getting from all now. What a disgrace.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Fedele
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM

I haven't even read any message because I just think it's an IDIOT situation, a child being pulled by both sides for political reasons, no one being really concerned with that boy. Even if I'm a strong Cuban supporter I think both sides really suck in this situation. But I think that the right thing should be done, that is sending him to Cuba. I note that spectacularization of personal cases, and the ugly vice of being capable of speaking about politics or social matters only when a "personal case" goes on the newspapers, is a typical American attitude. And I HATE it.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Kelida
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 04:04 PM

I'm a copy editor for my school's newspaper, and I'm writing an editorial on this very topic--maybe I'll post it later on. . .

Peace--Bridget

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 03:51 PM

Jim, I didn't say that the English law had the whole of childcare law right. I think your construct of a family kidnapping is probably not a correct view of the likely events, in England. But is is not my field. I stand, however on the view that it is morally right that children should not be treated as property, that parents have duties - but not rights to possession of children.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 03:45 PM

I just discovered this thread yesterday, and I hope I'm not so late in adding to it that no one wants to read about it any more. But this is a problem I have been thinking about a lot. In fact, I haven't been so interested in politics since the impeachment hearings. Maybe that tells you something about me. I won't dare to guess what it is.

Richard Bridge: I think you were a little hasty in saying, "UK law has got this bit right." I agree with you in principle that children are not property, and that parents have an obligation to take care of their children. US courts (actually, state courts in the US) regularly do terminate the rights of parents who abuse or neglect their children, and I approve. But here's where I'm afraid you and I might disagree: I think there ought to be some presumption in family law - analogous to the presumption of innocence in a criminal trial (You do have that in the UK, don't you?) - that parents ARE acting in the best interest of their children unless there is significant evidence to the contrary. And if a dispute arises between a parent and some other relative or temporary caretaker about what is best for a child, then the law ought to presume that the parent's judgment is best unless there is significant evidence to the contrary. This is generally all we mean when we talk about "parental rights" in the US. Although I'm not a lawyer, I THINK this principle exists in the law of every state - I'd be very shocked if it didn't. And I'd be shocked if it didn't exist in the UK as well.

It seems that without this assumption, you could be led to some absurd situations. Suppose I kidnap my cousin's baby, and then go into hiding for a month. Then I come out of hiding and accuse my cousin of being an unfit mother. Then the government would have to take the position, "Well, since an accusation has been made, we'll have to hold a hearing in family court to examine the evidence and determine if the accusation is true. And since we can't schedule the hearing until 6 months from now, in the meantime, we'll leave give temporary custody to the kidnapper, since it would be traumatic to the child to take it away from the person who has been taking care of her for a whole month." Then 6 months later, when the court examines the "evidence" and finds that it is worthless, I, the kidnapper can now argue that it would be even MORE traumatic to take the child away from someone who has been taking care of her for SEVEN WHOLE MONTHS. Then you'd have to schedule another hearing to evaluate THAT argument. By the time you finish dealing with all the motions and appeals, the child is old enough to talk and now says she wants to stay with the kidnapper. Then you schedule ANOTHER round of hearings to determine if the child is mature enough for her opinion to carry any weight in court.

I'm afraid that situations like this arise too often already. The one big fault with the US governmental and court system is that it is too easy to tie up the system with absurd motions and appeals, and pit one court against another, state courts against federal courts, courts against administrators, the press against everybody, with politicians taking sides in the hope of getting a few more votes . . .

"Justice delayed is justice denied." It happens all the time.

I thought I would have more to say on this subject but I find that I've argued myself into a state of depression, and I've got to take a break for a while.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 01:07 AM

I have read that the mother was actually a member of the Communist Party--not the sort of person that the exile community would have a lot of openess to--

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 01:03 AM

Until the kid becomes another Cuban emigré with a 95 mph fastball, a good changeup and a curveball, he should be with his father. All the best
Seamus

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 10:54 PM

Hey Al....I was reading the same piece re: Mom and the boyfriend and it does seem to be verified by at least three people at this point, both in the US and Cuba.

I also tend to think that the current situation will not be resolved tomorrow as it has too many bad connotations to Reno and the Justice Dept.

Whatever is happening to the child at this point is going to show in the future. Let's hope for as little damage as possible.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 10:43 PM

I think the boy needs to go back to his father...with immigration when he turns 18 and a full scholarship to Miamia state...

and child protective services needs to be involved now in removing him from that environment...does anyone know the telephone number down there?

what if all sorts of people started calling? I know it would detract from other urgent cases they have though..

Regardless of who gets ultimate custody...there needs to be intermediate caretakers who will obey the law and allow him at least access to the father while Nero or is it Reno fiddles..

mg

Subject: RE: Elian
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:03 PM

I share all of your frustrations, I was not going to spend the typing effort to contribute to this debate...but, two issues that are factors...if they can be believed:

Elians mother was not "freeing him", she was coming to Fla. to be with her boyfriend. It is doubtful that had she not drowned, that he would have ever seen the "caring relatives" that are the topic of, point #2.

Today on the news a doctor involved in this issue said that the boy is symptomatic of someone who is a political prisoner, and that he says the boy is being subjected to emotional abuse.

...gotta love them miami cubans, their god is so much better than their brothers god, that they are willing to sacrifice the nephew, to prove it...

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Gary T
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 08:58 PM

I have mixed feelings on this matter. I see a resemblance to the debate on abortion, where the two sides are arguing different issues. In discussing abortion, one side is talking about murder and the other side is talking about personal medical rights. They both make a strong case, but never reach any real resolution because they're not arguing about the same thing (forgive the simplification, I'm just trying to point out a similarity in how I see people discussing these two vexing issues).

In Elian's case, I see one side discussing family/child relationships and the other discussing political freedom. I got some insight into the latter by reading a couple of articles in the newspaper. Apparently the Cuban emigres in Miami (and elsewhere) have a depth of feeling about this that rivals the feelings Jews have about the Holocaust (not comparing the Holocaust to Castro's repression, but how strongly the victims feel about it). They are now thinking that they haven't done a good job of communicating this to non-Cubans.

Alice's post above gives us some insight into the perspective of many of those who left Cuba, often at great peril. The articles I read showed me that many of them believe that sending Elian back to Cuba would be as unconscionable as sending a Jewish child into WWII Germany (my parallel, not theirs) and that their belief is as fervent and sincere as those who feel abortion is murder, period (again my parallel).

I offer this not to demean anyone's opinion or change anyone's mind, but to try to shed some light on why it seems that those who want him to stay here apparently dismiss the importance of the child being with his father. To them, that's not the issue.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,Sinsull
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 07:16 PM

Did anyone see the picture of the young Ethiopian boy too weak from starvation to stand? He looks about the same age as Elian. Strange that while millions are being pissed away on political posturing over one child, another will die for lack of $5 worth of bread and water.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 06:57 PM

Thank you all for your comments--strange how uniform the view is, that Elian should be with his father, and yet the politician and newscasters all behave as if this a a great controversy--as always, the tangential stories were even more interesting than the thread itself--Keep us posted on your story, Kat--

I am laboring away- I add a new verse each day, reflecting each days news--the song is a salsa/rhumba, and sounds best in a "Desi Arnaz" sort of voice--

Today's verse:

And they say that poor Elian is brainwashed
And handled as if he were a prisoner
Do the ones from "Live at Five"
Try to keep this news alive
By fanning the flames in Miami?

Subject: RE: Elian
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 01:19 PM

So.... the song will be, Bye bye my Ell-ee-anno?

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 12:19 PM

Peter, repeat after me: "I will never suggest an "Elian" thread again". Perhaps an "Alien" thread, or "Olean"(it's in New York State) or even "Uillian" (sp.) or "Elisian" or perhaps "The Cosmos..your thoughts", but NEVER again an "Elian". Now go back to your steamboat til you're called again.

Rick (who misses you)

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 12:11 PM

I apologise for even mentioning this elsewhere. When will I learn.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Alice
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 11:36 AM

OK, M.Ted, you started this thread saying you wanted to write a song about the subject. How in the heck can you write anything except to say that the muddy waters of US versus Castro policy and the US media greed for any titillating subject that involves kids (Jon Benet, Columbine, etc., where there is no restraint in dwelling on these subjects in a superficial and exploitative manner) makes this child, Elian, another victim of Adult Insanity.

The politics, on both sides, the media exploitation to get viewers, are all shameless in using this child for their own gain. So, lyrics that point out how crazy this child exploitation is? I'd go for that. Lyrics that polarize people even more in choosing mom versus dad, communist versus non-communist, black or white, either... or... ??? My point is that this is a complicated political issue with a long history that gets children tangled up in the middle. Castro has refused to share political power in Cuba. He will hold on to totalitarian control until his demise. On the other side, the US punishes Cuba and its people economically, so that the "equal" medical care that was referred to means that people equally share a bottle of aspirin, and not much else. The people are equally malnourished. The children suffer the consequences of the Adult Insanity.

alice

Subject: RE: Elian
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 11:17 AM

Sorry,

[although since so postings]

should read

[although since there are so few postings, these]

Subject: RE: Elian
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 11:11 AM

Who cares what I think, but in this thread, in addition to the weirdness chord struck which I already posted about, I find two other really interesting (to me) things that I keep thinkinag about.... and I don't think I would have thought about them at all if not for this [oh-dear, it's nonmusical BS] thread...

These are:

I would really have thought my opinion about the Elian matter would be an unpopular minority one here at the 'Cat-- and here I find it shared by people I respect, although since so postings don't make any kind of majority of 'Catters. Folkie freedom fighters in my head now live beside the people who've posted these things that basically echo the rather sad but resolved opinion I had...

And that contribution from the UK (about the difference in what factors are looked at in these cases) just holds my thoughts so strongly-- it is the single most cross-cultural thing I have read here, and it is said with no violence at all. In fact it is said so well that it just keeps mushrooming in my thoughts to pull other thoughts into the internal dialog.

These two pieces of thinking will greatly affect my operation in the world, where I cary human-service responsibilities with whatever hat I may be wearing. And some of you know me now ell enough to know that I wear many, many hats.

I guess here is where I would like to say that if all Mudcatters were musicians and musicians only, the BS/Anti-BS argument would be a lot simpler to resolve. It's actually as intractable a mess (IMHO) as this Elian thing.

And Spaw-- awww, I hadn't realized this made you miss that gig!! Double damn!!! Please rest well! Call in reinforcements to help!

~Susan~

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 10:49 AM

It's a bunch of egos striving to enhance their own poor self images and their sense of power. It's heady stuff to defy the law and all that that entails. This is really the ultimate "B.S." thread. What I mean is that it's definitely a close encounter of the turd kind. As Fox Mulder says, "The Elians are here !!"

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 10:21 AM

Thanks Praise......It seems we got caught by a late season bug that's passing through the area. I hate it because Karen and the boys had an outting planned today that ain't gonna' happen, and I should be waking up in Cincy after a night of enjoying meeting Allan C. and doing the coffehouse gig. It will pass, but its timing could have been better!

Kat's situation is very hard to understand, but it too carries political attachments. And frankly, the many custody problems in THIS country are politically related as well. Kendall says we are a nation of laws. Changing the law then enters the political arena...simple as that.

Richard points up the first piece of legalese that many are trying to address in the US. Most state statutes say at this time still read:

"Parents are entitled to their children as they are their other property." ...ie, children and end tables have the same rights. Although this sounds silly, its true, and children are not recognized as having a liberty interest under the 14th Amendment. This brings up Richard's other point, the idea that children belong where they are currently living, after a period of some time.

That one is open to a lot of debate, depending on the area you are considering. My only experience here comes from the adoption end of things. The law needs to clearly state the rights of birth parents and primary families, but it also needs to state the rights of children involved, especially for those who are so young. The "Baby Richard" case in Chicago was a far better example of this than the "Baby Jessica" case in Michigan which gained such nationwide prominence. Technically, the DeBoer's (in Michigan), didn't have a leg to stand on. It did serve as a catalyst to move forward on the legal front for the hundreds of other cases out there. "Baby Richard" was four years old before anything was started by the birth father. Although his reasons may have been "righteous" for this, the simple truth is that this child was removed at age six from the ONLY home he ever knew. Now friends, that sucks, and I question the "love" of anyone who would attempt this. At least in Illinois, that will never happen again. But the pols lined up on both sides and it was hard not to question their motives.

Hmmmm.....Fever is down to 100 even, boys are quiet, Karen is asleep.......damn flu.....maybe we can try to do something fun tomorrow...........nice day out............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Wavestar
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 10:10 AM

Kendall- The mother did have a boyfriend... and he was the main pressure behind getting her to flee to the US. She herself wasn't enthusiastic about the entire thing, and she died in the endeavor. Not only that, but she had no right to Elian in the first place... his father had custody. She kidnapped him.

You know the worst part, I think? Elian hasn't even been conclusively told that his mother is dead. They think it would traumatise him too much. I think that counts as pyschological abuse... at least the child should KNOW she's not coming back.

-J

Subject: RE: Elian
From: kendall
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 09:16 AM

I dont know why the boys mother fled Cuba..do you? was it to get away from Castro or her husband. Did she have a lover? too many unanswered questions here. There is not one shred of evidence that Jaun Gonzales is an unfit father. I know too well that it is a common attitude among women in a split up that those are "MY" kids. Its like the father just happened to be around for the "laying of the keel" and has no rights after the ship is launched. The kid belongs with his father, and, those distant relatives should butt out. This is not some bananna republic that operates according to the feelings of the day. It is a nation of laws. You dont like the law? change it.!! Vote seeking pandering politicians make me puke.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 05:49 AM

This is not a comment with any judgment attached about anyone's posting, but it just strikes the weirdness chord in me that....

.... there can be a sense that a dead Elian as a result of fleeing with his mother for freedom....

is different from...

.... the sense of a dead Elian taken by his mother for some other, less-blatantly "political" reason...

And I'm not saying that it wouldn't make a difference to me, either, I'm just saying, isn't human ethical evaluation weird, when you think about it?

Spaw, never mind Elian.... I'm sorry you and yours are sick! I hope you're doing better, and I hope there was something light and cheering at the 'Cat to help!!! Cuz ya know, I don't know these Elian people at all, but you and yours are right here "in our own back yard." Although I really don't know you at all, either, I can at least wrap my mind around who you are and the importance of what you do, to send a thought your way!

~Susan~

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 04:00 AM

I am not a child care lawyer - here in the UK - but surely the UK law has got this bit right. A child does not "belong" to anyone. Parents do not have "parental rights", they have "parental duties" - and in any (yes, I mean any) dispute over those things, the welfare of the child is the paramount (yes, the paramount)consideration.

As to the American children allegedly kidnapped, the English courts can only have applied that consideration - and I suspect that they bumped onto one of the areas where child care does not work so well - the tendency, which I think is excessive, to say that moves are disruptive so that is in the best interests of the child to stay pretty well anywhere once they have been there a while.

As to Elian, it certainly seems sad, if you look at it that way, that his mother died trying to free him and because she died he has to go back to the place from which he tried to escape. But is that cultural imperialism? What would you have said of a child whose mother was shot trying to get out of East Berlin?

Finally, is it wise to assume, as some posters here seem to do, that Castro was a change for the worse for Cubans? At least they now have access to education and medicine and some even if not total equality of opportunity.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 01:39 AM

Yep, thanks, Spaw. I still wish one damn politician would lift a finger for the gal in Wyoming! That piece I wrote was in WyoWoman's paper, plus the Liberal Opinion Week, which is distributed nationwide. I just sent it out to a bunch of others, maybe, maybe it will catch someone's eye. I don't care if it gets used, I'd just like to see her get some help, ya know?

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 01:36 AM

Aw, that ain't no rant kat......the whole damn thing is a tragedy from the gitgo. It is and will always be a political issue and more's the pity! Our conversation, like this thread, came from the powerless feeling we tend to get when simple situations become so overwhelming in scope.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 01:27 AM

Well...wonder what we'd all think of those crazies that left everything behind, put their kids and a bit of groceries in a covered wagon and headed out West, risking life and limb; knowing nothing of where they were going except a few vague generalities?

The main problem I have with anyone having a an either/or opinion on the thing, that is, anyone who is not directly involved, is that we none of us really know anything about the entire situation to make any kind of informed and/or rational decision. It's the armchair judge, jury, and executioner syndrome which became so rampant during the OJ trial. Who ARE we, any of us, to really say who was the better parent?

Now, I know, Spaw and Beanster, you are both very involved in these kinds of issues and I am NOT pointing a finger at you. It is only natural to have these discussions, esp. in the context of the lives you both lead. I am just ranting on a little about the general public, which seems so ready to make snap judgements, when they really know very little about the whole thing.

Along with the Mexican example, how about all the Haitians who've been turned back/lost at sea, with children? Rick is right, it all comes down to votes and the stupidity of the average American voter who votes like they channel surf: with no thought in mind except what sound bite they liked best. Oh well, I guess I should be glad they bother to vote at all.

RANT OFF. Thanks for listening,

kat