Elian

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 01:12 AM

That's the argument exactly Beano!!! And its true that we know basically nothing of Dad so it really isn't a fair vote. But I was one of the three who seriously questioned Mom for putting her child in a boat across the gulf at this time of year. If the situation in my home was so severe, would I take my child at the risk of killing them? Hard to say isn't it? Like a game of "Scruples."........but this one was for real.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: The Beanster
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 01:04 AM

I'm with ya, Spaw! lol I realize now that my previous posting reads like the whole thing was directed at you, to argue a point and I apologize--was not intended to be aimed at you. You and I obviously agree on this (as do most of the folks here, it seems).

Hmmm. The vote. We had a similar discussion in my office this week and I really can't vote either way, unfortunately. Don't know anything about Mom OR Dad, for that matter. But based on what I know of the story, on the one hand, you could say that Mom had the boy's best interest in mind because she tried to give him a better life in the U.S. On the other hand, how responsible is a Mom who risks the life of her child, across 90 miles of open ocean on a rickety raft? What does that say about her judgment? That's a tough one. I'm interested--what do YOU think??

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 12:36 AM

Beanster......I agree on the termination situation as one who has taken numerous kids through that situation. But this case, and my point, was that this is NOT a termination or even close!!! Dad gets kid period. That's it.

I like your Mexican thing and I'll also then, since we're just kickin' the thing around and everyone is pretty much on the same track here..........

Who is the most fit parent here, if Mom had lived? Granted, the situation may never have come to this, but I'm just curious and its a subject we have talked of a bit locally. The reason I ask is that we had this conversation at Children's Services last week and the vote ran (in our little group, not the entire agency) 4 to 3 in favor of Mom....but that's very close. Wanna' vote?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: The Beanster
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 12:14 AM

oooo I knew it was only a matter of time until an E.G. thread showed up... !

faswilli2, thank you for saying that about Mexicans trying to come across the border--I've been using that same analogy since this thing began and I think it's right on the money.

Aside from the issue of whether or not dad is fit to raise Elian or not, the point is, he's an illegal immigrant. He belongs to Cuba, he belongs IN Cuba. He's got to go. I feel terrible for all the immigrants coming into the U.S. who spend YEARS trying to obtain citizenship in order to stay here legally--this kind of pandering to a very vocal, angry minority in a political tug of war makes my stomache turn.

My work involves custody/visitation evaluations every single day of the week. And Spaw, I disagree that it is almost impossible to determine that a bio parent is unfit. In termination of parental rights cases, there are many times that the parent's rights are terminated. In custody cases, depending on many factors, the parent who can serve the best interest of the child is the one who is recommended to receive custody. But in this case, this is a moot point. There need be no forensic/psychological evaluation--this is an immigration issue, not a custody issue and not a termination of rights case.

Whew. I'm sure glad I have Mudcat (and Mudcatters) to complain to when I've got my bloomers in a ball. LOL

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 11:48 PM

Thanks for your stories Alice and kat. How I wish that "votes" weren't the only issues that drive politicians.

Rick

Subject: RE: Elian
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 11:32 PM

Alice, thank you for posting about your experiences. It is very interesting and enlightening to hear some perspective on where some of the Cubans in Florida may be coming from in the whole thing.

Spaw, it's Great Britain, the father was just killed in Germany.

Thanks, Giac. I guess I will post it here. I don't like to impose, but as there are a lot of Mudcatters from the US and the UK, it might be intereting to get their perspectives on it.

"A Mind-Full Spoken: Wyoming's Own Elians Held in UK"

In their short lives, Cameron Owens, 7, and his brother Korre Owens, 8, both American citizens, have lived through their parents', Teresa and Mitchell Owens, divorce; moving to an Army base in Germany during their father's temporary custody; and their father's death in Germany, when he was struck by a streetcar, shortly after marrying their nanny, Nicola Ann Savory Walker (Nicola Owens.)

Following that, their stepmother took them to the States for their father's funeral. While there they met their paternal grandmother and other paternal relatives, some of whom were interested in gaining custody of the boys. In his will, Mitchell Owens had named his sister as temporary guardian of his sons. Then, contrary to the law and her own agreement, their nanny-turned-stepmother kidnapped them, taking them back to Germany, then to England, where she has since remarried and is now known as Nicola Newell.

In the meantime, their real mother, Teresa, who regained custody of her sons in October 1994, almost a full year before her ex-husband's death, has spent the past five years trying to get her sons back. In a blatant election year maneuver, members of Congress are now dabbling in child custody, ready with legislation concerning the citizenship of the young Cuban boy, Elian Gonzalez, who lost his mother while trying to reach the United States. In the meantime, in her continuing struggle to get her sons back, Teresa Owens has had no help from our government. In fact, she filed a lawsuit against the government in December 1999, accusing it of collusion with the stepmother in taking her boys out of the country.

Teresa and Mitchell married in 1990 and divorced in 1993, after having Cameron and Korre. After their divorce, Mitchell, who was in the Army, was stationed in Germany. Teresa and her boys moved to Cheyenne, Wyoming. In April 1994, when Teresa was in an auto accident with her children in the car at the time, Mitchell was granted temporary custody of the boys. He flew over from Germany, picked them up and went back to Germany. When his six months custody was up, he told Teresa he didn't have the money to send them back. She agreed to wait until January 1995 for their return, as he expected to be stationed back in the States by that time. When that didn't happen, Teresa was unsuccessful in her attempts to contact her ex-husband and children. Finally, in October 1995, she was informed her ex-husband had been struck and killed by a tram in Germany , in July 1995.

When his widow, Nicola Owens, brought Cameron and Korre to Alabama for her husband's funeral, she agreed with her mother-in-law to travel to Hawaii to bury his ashes. Instead, she went back to Germany with the children apparently with the assistance of United States Army officers.

Criminal charges were brought against Nicola Owens for kidnapping the boys. Despite that, in her subsequent bid for custody in English courts, Cameron and Korre were given over to her care, as wards of the English court system. If she is ever extradited to face the charges against her, it has been said English law would most likely grant custody to her new husband. Nicola receives about $2000 per month in Social Security benefits for the boys. There is also a $200,000 trust fund which Mitchell Owens left for his sons.

Their real mother, Teresa, is not allowed to call her sons nor know where they are. English courts have told her she may visit the boys, only if she drops the kidnapping charges against Newell. Teresa has filed suit against the U.S. government charging that Army casualty assistance officers and a JAG officer knew "that the children should not be taken from the United States" and "used concealment and the resources of the Army" to usurp the custody of Teresa Owens, when they allegedly aided Nicola Owens in leaving the United States, children in tow. So, here is an American mother, struggling against the powerful government of one of our strongest allies, unable to see or talk to her little boys. She is the only blood parent they have. She has had legal custody of Cameron and Korre since October 1994, according to the laws of the United States. Have we seen any outpouring of national, let alone international support, for Teresa and her sons? Where are the Congresspeople who are grandstanding over Elian? Why are they making his custody an act of Congress, while allowing England to refuse the rights of an American mother? If politicians are going to enter the family court arena, through enacting laws for one little boy, they should look to their own country and help parents like Teresa Owens, too. While Elian certainly deserves an equitable settlement of his case, Teresa Owens deserves to have her sons returned to her. She is not the only American parent who is struggling against a foreign court system to regain custody of her children.

It is time for the bigwigs working on the Elian Gonzalez issue to help Teresa and others like her to exert the authority of American law and demand the return of her children, who remain American citizens in virtual exile. One cannot help but wonder if Elian's father feels the same sense of frustration and futility in his bid for custody of his son, as Teresa Owens has during her many years of struggle.

© 1/26/00 OoBraughLoo Press All rights reserved

Subject: RE: Elian
From: SDShad
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 10:31 PM

Nooooooooooooo!

Not an Elian thread! Not here!

Aieeeeeee!

Must...go...to bed. Will probably post in this thread tomorrow....

*bg*,

Chris

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 10:28 PM

Interesting that people are making these assumptions about my point of view. Guest and faswilli2, I made no statement about keeping Elian from his father. I think that Elian has become a political football in Cuban - US politics, and the media circus has not helped at all. What I wrote describes the very long history of pain that is the backdrop to this situation. The child is being treated like a symbolic political object. I wish he was in his father's arms.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 10:21 PM

I have been in the trenches, so to speak, on numerous child custody cases and know quite a few of the real players in the lawyering dodge who have actually had an impact on the changing of the rights of children. Anyone with the sense to pour piss out of a boot (eliminating a number of attorneys I know) can see that this "case" has no merit and doesn't even make the laffer stage.

Rick mentioned the political aspects out and that is in all fact the only thing this has going for it. Let's forget about Haitians of even kat's German problem....Let's talk good old USA.

Set up the same scenario......fleeing mother (or father) absconds minor child and then dies for whatever reason. The child would be returned to the surviving parent immediately through a Children's Services organization with only minor involvement from the law enforcement agencies and that only to expedite the return. Any other relatives involved would have to make their case later and to be truthful, unless the survivng parent could be judged completely unfit (almost impossible---OJ?) they might as well "stay home" and save the legal fees.

Frankly, this whole thing pisses me off. Now it may be because I'm running a fever with a splitting headache and two sick kids and a sick wife, but I don't think that's it. I am pissed because the justice department and the courts and the legislatures in this friggin' country are abominably slow in addressing the rights of children (and their caretakers) on cases of significant merit, and yet we'll screw with this one for purely politcal reasons.

What we have succeeded in doing is screwing up this poor kid beyond all recognition. How can he possibly have a real opinion at this point in time? What is he thinking at all levels now? What will he think in a year...or five, or ten? If he had been returned to his father immediately, what would his reaction have been?

This whole fockin' thing makes me ill. We do a fine job of screwing up kids here, that's for sure. This is just one more in a long line..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Elian
From: uncle bill
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 10:14 PM

sorry alice, war is hell, ain't it. If this kid was a Mexican who crossed the border tonite, he'd be on the next bus back to Monterrey tomorrow. He belongs with his father regardless of all else.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:57 PM

Dear Guest, I did not even make a statement about Elian not being with his father. YOU ASSUMED something about my opinion, and your assumption is wrong.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:54 PM

Alice. It is not for you to decide whether the father is a 'victim' or not. He IS the father of the child and in any civilized society, in the abscence of the mother, he is the 'legal' guardian.

And he has his rights. Just as you would had the situation been reversed.

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Giac
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:53 PM

Well put, Kendall and Rick. I join those who believe the political posturing should stop. It is so tiresome watching the media using dangling rosaries superimposed over Elian's face as he peers out the window. That doesn't make me "against" religion, but I am against using such symbols to evoke pathos. The child belongs with his father.

Kat, should you decide not to post your op/ed piece, I'd be very interested in receiving it via e-mail.

giac

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:42 PM

When Castro took over Cuba and the Batista government was ousted, I was in about the 4th grade. Catholic Charities asked parishes around the country, including here in Montana, to open our homes to Cubans who were told to leave all behind in Cuba. Many parents, unable to leave with their children, sent their children to Florida and from there, they were temporarily given homes with families or in orphanages. A brother and sister, Roberto and Delia, came to live with us. They were from Oriente Province. Their mother and father had HAD FOUGHT WITH CASTRO to overthrow Batista, with promises of a better, more equal government and future for Cubans.

Roberto and Delia lived with us for a year and a half. Delia was in high school, and she shared my bed and my bedroom. Roberto was in the 6th grade, same as my brother Michael, and they shared Michael's bed and bedroom. I remember well the night they came to live with us. They had never been in such a cold climate. They had only the clothes they wore when they left Cuba. Delia knew no English, Roberto knew the word "yellow". They did not know when they would ever see their parents again. Eventually, they learned their mother was in South America, and when they left us, they went on to their mother.

When they learned to speak English, over that year and a half, Roberto and Delia were able to tell us alot about their experience of the "revolution". Other Cuban families, some parents who joined their children, became friends with our family. I remember well the Morales family. Their high school aged son, Enrique, came to Montana first, (Helena, where we lived), and his parents joined him later. Enrique's father was a dentist. They were not rich people. Mr. Morales had a profession, but like many who chose to not live in Castro's regime, he left with the clothes on his back. I remember his wife telling my mother about how she had to sew her wristwatch into the seam of her dress, because they were not allowed to take anything but the clothes they were wearing.

My older brother, Larry, who had just started college, would play music with other Cuban teenagers at our house. I remember well the jam sessions of "Blue Moon" and "Apple Pink and Cherry Blossom White" with Cuban teenagers on piano, bongos, and my brother on his electric guitar.

When they first came, Roberto and Delia would not eat chicken or pork. They later could explain that they had walked through the battle fields of the revolution from their home in Oriente Province to Havana, with their mother. They had seen the chickens and pigs eating corpses. Roberto told me how a guerilla had taken a burning cigarette and placed it in the teeth of a corpse, pointing it out to Roberto and laughing. When they got to Havana, there would be speeches by Castro in a square. The speeches would go on for hours. Robert said the men with guns would stand around the edge of a crowd so no one could leave. When his parents realized that Castro was a dictator, was killing people and controlling them, they realized that although they had helped to remove Batista, Castro was even worse. Fear to speak, fear to think, fear to act, fear of the firing squad, all was fear.

The experience of those who had to leave Cuba in order to live without fear of the dictator and his power of the firing squad is an experience that many people do not understand about Cuban refugees. The issue is NOT about poverty. The issue is freedom versus living in fear. The father of Elian is a victim of this mind controlling dictator, too. This is not a simple situation to understand or to explain.

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: Elian
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:32 PM

Ever noticed how my typing accuracy goes to shit when I am mildly pissed (not drunk) off?! Sorry!

Subject: RE: Elian
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 09:18 PM

There is a mother here in Wyoming whose ex-husband had temporary custody of their two young boys while married to their former nannie, who is British. He had the audacity to get hick by a streetcar in Germany and died. The mother has legal custody, by Americna courts, but the nannie and her new husband REFUSE TO RETURN THE BOYS. No blood relation at all, but because these boys are being held by an ally country's citizen and that country's court system has gotten involved, those tow boys are kept from any blood relatives they've ever had, including their father's family.

Everytime I hear about Elian I get pissed off at the lack of any government help for this American mother. The contrast are mind-boggling! If anyone wants to read the in-depth, very explanatory op/ed piece I worte and which has been published, about this, pelase let me know and I will eamil it or post it depending on how everyone feels.

kat

Subject: RE: Elian
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 08:41 PM

Oh, well, since the thread is here, and I'm always saying how I enjoy the political discussions on Mudcat.....

Kendall. From talking to folks and reading the Canadian papers, I get the impression that many Canadians see Castro as a boring, exceedingly long winded gas bag. Like all revolutionaries who find themselves finally in power, he's had to resort to many of the tactics that his former foes used, to keep the populace scared enough to not overthrow him. Generally Central and South American governments rely on the church, as well as the secret police to do most of the dirty work..but if you're going to hoist the flag of aetheism, then you have to use secular pressure alone...and it would appear they do..in spades.

It's a good thing Elian looks like a member of "Menudo". Helps a lot in the "Anti-Commie Poster Boy" game. I think the whole thing is so patently superficial, it is to laugh. If he were just another jet-black Haitian kid none of the Presidential candidates would be lying in their teeth, as they are now.

In a few short years Castro will be dead, and Starbucks and MacDonalds will be in Havana before his body even starts to cool. Friends tell me it's a cheap Carribean vacation though.

Rick

Subject: RE: Elian
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 08:00 PM

Those Cuban Americans left Cuba when Castro overthrew Batista. Their well off life came to an end when all Cubans became equal. Now, they defy the US Government knowing that the law says he must go back. This is a nation of laws, if we allow them to defy those laws, what is the difference between us, and any bananna republic that gets a new dictator every few years? Sure Cuba is poor..why? our embargo for one thing, we dis approve of Castro, fine, do we approve of China and her dictators? The kid belongs with his father. I wish his father would opt to stay here. That would be ideal. Eisenhower sent in the Marshals to enforce the disegregation laws in the 50's ..why are we pussyfooting around the Cuban Americans? BECAUSE THEY VOTE and Florida has two dozen electoral votes. Thats the reason Gore folded. Question..are Canadians as egocentric, ethnocentric and geocentric as we are?

Subject: Elian
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 14 Apr 00 - 06:49 PM

Some one said they were thankful that there was no "Elian" thread, which reminded me that there ought to be one--

I am writing a topical song about this strange situation, and with more than 45 verses, I find myself unclear as to what the real story is about--

Any suggestions, comments, of any sort would be appreciated--

For those of you who are completely bored with the situation, I understand--for those of you, like me, who believe that if you look at the same picture for long enough, you will see something completely new--just keep looking at the TV and repeating, "Elian, Elian..."