Bagpipes in America

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 06:11 PM

I have heard Pipers in the UK and the USA. The sound while loud in both is sweet in the UK but harsh in the US. I suppose that may be the air or humidity or both.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: NH Dave
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 01:28 PM

I would suggest that there were few pipers in the New World because few pipers came to the area, there were few places where piping seemed "right" and there were few teachers of piping.

During the mid fifties, a group of Scots, Scottish Canadians, and generally Scottish leaning Americans founded a local pipe band in western, central New Hampshire. The Pipe Major was a Scot or Canadian who had learned piping as a youth, and taught us how to play the pipes in a proper manner. Scott Hastings was a man of Scottish descent who taught woodworking in a local school and had a keen ear for music. He and his wife formed a Scottish Imports company to bring wool and equipment into the area for resale, or to supply the band. His wife, God bless her, a fair seamstress agreed to make the kilts for the entire band, some 16-20 people, no mean feat in the best of times. As time passed he became the best piper in the band and became the Pipe Major, following the older man's retirement. He began to teach Scottish piping, and then learned and taught Ullean Pipes as well.

At that time, the only Highland Games we knew about were either in Nova Scotia, which also taught piping and Gaelic in one of its universities, or Boston; each held in the fall. Today, NH has its own games at Loon Mountain, there are games at Grandfather Mountain, and others in California, and many other places. Each features piping, dancing, and Highland sporting competitions.

A few years later, a former Naval fitter formed up a second band down on the seacoast, using some folks from the earlier band and lots of Irish and Scottish young folks from the area who were taught to play in a rudimentary fashion over one winter. Over times, other bands rose and fell, and there currently is a band and a "band school" in Manchester NH.

Scott went on to build pipes based on classical models as well as guitars and Appalachian dulcimers; earned a Masters degree in Anthropology; and studied the local folks in NH & Vermont, which resulted in 5-6 popular books on local life before his untimely death in 1991.

Over the last 40 odd years there has been an upwelling of interest in Scottish and Irish piping, as well as Scottish Dress. Locally it is now possible to rent kilts and formal attire for weddings and such, and a local lad attended his Prom in a kilt within the last two years.

All of this reinforce my thesis that with pipers and piping, interest will be maintained in piping and Scottish arts, so that they will flourish in an area.

Dave

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 11:54 AM

Philadelphia's own Rufus Harley plays jazz bagpipes. I've heard him and he's good. Here's what Mark Keresman had to say in http://www.jazzreview.com/cdreview.cfm?ID=1873 about Rufus' 2000 release of The Pied Piper of Jazz:

CD Title: The Pied Piper Of Jazz

Year: 2000

Record Label: Label M

Style: BeBop / Hard Bop

Review: Rufus Harley may be the only American jazz musician to focus almost exclusively on the Scottish bagpipes (he occasionally plays saxophone, too). Perhaps this has limited Harley's visibility-some might consider him (or his pipes) a "novelty." But the man is quite serious about the pipes as an expressive jazz instrument, and this compilation-taken from some of his '60s albums on Atlantic-is the proof. (As further proof, Harley has appeared on albums by The Roots and Laurie Anderson, in his post-Atlantic career.) He draws an earthy, soulful wail from his instrument, placing it solidly into a soul-charged hard bop context reminiscent of Bobby Timmons and early-'60s Herbie Hancock. On "Bagpipe Blues" Harley draws from his pipes a drone that recalls not only the highlands of Scotland, but also the sidewalks of Marrakesh and the yearning wail(s) of Coltrane and Bechet. Other tracks on this collection include Harley as a featured guest with other leaders: Sonny Stitt ("Pipin' The Blues," a soul-jazz cooker featuring the organ of Don Patterson--some robust Stitt here, too) and Herbie Mann (the magnetic "Flute Bag," from Mann's great live "Whirling Dervishes" album, which ought to be reissued). Nice stuff--hopefully this compilation will bring Harley some long-overdue recognition. (He's still active--contact him at: 6116 Magnolia St., Philadelphia, PA 19144.)

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 09:35 PM

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 00 - 01:21 PM

On the subject of the bagpipes in the aftermath of Collodden, in both Scotland and Nova Scotia, John G. Gibson (Traditional Gaelic Bagpiping, 1745 - 1945, McGill-Queen's University Press/ National Museums of Scotland, 1998) is currently the best authority.  In chapter 2, The Roots of Jacobitism and the Disarming Act, Gibson convincingly demolishes the myth that the pipes were banned.  He demonstrates that neither the Disarming Act of 1746 nor the amendments to it of 1748 mention bagpipes or any other musical instrument (and quotes the entire text of both in appendices).  There are records of two pipers being tried for treason; James Campbell Macgrigor (transported), and James Reid (executed).  Gibson writes:

" Reid the piper was hanged three months and fourteen days after the Disarming Act of 1746 was promulgated on 1 August of that year.  His conviction had nothing whatever to do with the act.  He was being tried for treason, having been captured in Carlisle as one of that city's garrison.  It bears repeating that the act's mandate, where arms were concerned, involved a clearly specified area of Highland Scotland.  Moreover, while the terms of the act date to 1 August 1746 (politically) and 12 August 1746 (royal assent), application of the part of the act pertaining to arms did not begin in the limited area of Gaelic Scotland until the summer of 1748...
James Reid had been captured in December 1745 as one of the Jacobite occupiers of the English city of Carlisle. Humble piper though he probably was, he had been in active rebellion and went to his execution for that treasonous crime, not for contravening the Disarming Act.  However, the court at York ruled with the words that have distorted the history of piping for generations: that "no regiment ever marched without musical instruments such as drums, trumpets and the like; and that a highland regiment never marched without a piper; and therefore his bagpipe, in the eye of the law, was an instrument of war."  The harshness of the judge's decision in Reid's case has no doubt added to the confusion; after all, at least six Scottish officers who were left to garrison Carlisle when the Jacobite army retreated north to its final grave were reprieved after being found guilty of treason at their trials, and James Campbell Macgrigor was transported; what's more, the English jury at Reid's trial had recommended mercy.  In short, Reid was the victim of judicial inflexibility, outrage, and revenge.
Although it is nowhere stated, Reid's case has almost certainly been emphasized for another reason.  If he was an ordinary unlanded man (and it is all but certain that he was), then he faced the choice of drawing lots to see who should be tried for treason and who simply transported without standing before a judge (under the lot system one in twenty of the common folk were chosen to stand trial as traitors, while the other nineteen were transported).  As James Logan* hinted, if anyone considered that a trial might enable him to avoid both the death penalty and transportation it was surely the non-combatant piper and the impressed man**.  Reid's plea would appear the more pathetic (as it did to the jury) if he eschewed the chance of life in a foreign land by opting for trial rather than drawing a lot.
The proponents of the idea that the Reid case set a precedent for the Disarming Act enforcers erroneously link what was a post-rebellion trial in an English city for the capital crime of high treason with the application of a calculated, extremely explicit sixteen-page act of the British government that had nothing whatsoever to do with proscribing the Highland bagpipes and was not enforced until after the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle ended the duke of Cumberland's European war in 1748.  Not only is there no mention of bagpipes or bagpipers in the act but no pipers were convicted as such under any of the act's published stipulations.  The records of the northern circuit of the Justiciary Court for the period 1748-51, for example, show no apprehensions, trials, or convictions of pipers."

* In The Scottish Gaël (1831).

** "Two other pipers, Nicholas Carr and John Ballantine, were among the five who were tried at York and acquitted of treason.  Both successfully claimed to have been impressed (legally compelled to serve in the army).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Dale Rose
Date: 27 Apr 00 - 09:31 AM

Lots of info about the Arkansas Scottish Festival at Batesville's Lyon College here. Schedule of events, pictures from last year, links to other Scottish websites . . .

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 00 - 12:55 PM

Now those are interesting suggestions okie - I hope someone over in America feels like taking them on.

And the same kind of considerations would arise elsewhere - what about Australia?

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Dale Rose
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 11:20 PM

I can't say about any place else in the US, but I'd like to comment that the bagpipes are alive and well in Arkansas, at least they will be this coming weekend. This is from The Sun-Times, Heber Springs, AR, April 21, 2000. (slightly edited version~~I think I caught most of the OCR mistakes) Note that there will also be bluegrass and Ozark Folk Music ~~ can't get away from that!:

Lyon Scottish Festival is next weekend

BATESVILLE -- The sound of bagpipes will fill the spring air as the 21st Arkansas Scottish Festival celebrates its 21st year April 28-30 on the Lyon College campus. Events include competitions for pipe bands, individual bagpipers, Highland dancers and Scottish athletics; sheepdog demonstrations, Ozark music and crafts; a Feast and Ceilidh Saturday night; and a traditional Iona Worship Service on Sunday morning. The massed bands will march at the opening ceremonies at 1 p.m. Saturday.

The gates open Saturday morning at 8:30. The athletic, individual piping and drumming and Highland dancing competitions begin shortly thereafter. Children's games will be held both Saturday and Sunday on Braemar Field.

Highlighting the contests of the day will be the band competition. After marching as a mass band for the opening ceremonies at 1 p.m., each band will get a chance to compete in the three grades, consisting of two three to five minute medleys and one four to six minute medley.

The massed band march and parade of clans and societies is perhaps the highlight of the weekend as each band joins to form one large band that marches onto Braemar Field. Around the parade field, clans and Scottish vendors will be set up, handing out information and selling their wares.

Also throughout the day on Saturday, the sounds of traditional Scottish music and bluegrass and folk music may be heard across the hills. Alex Beaton, the popular Scottish folk artist, is set to appear again this year, his 13th year in a row at the festival. At the Grigsby House, bluegrass and Ozark folk music, which descended from Scottish music, will draw the crowds. Surrounding the house will be several Ozark craftsmen and artisans selling their work.

The Feast and Ceilidh will be at 7 o'clock Saturday night. Having outgrown Edwards Commons, the event will be held in Becknell Gym, allowing more room for the fun and festivities, including an authentic Scottish feast and entertainment.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:43 PM

A further thought. The uillean pipes, as mentioned in another thread, were steadily engineered during the 1800s into a chromatic instrument. Some of these changes were, I think, invented in the U.S., others in the Isles. One might be able to trace the U.S. history at least of these pipes by examining the records of the patent office for patents that were issued for design improvements.

T.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:38 PM

A great many borderers and lowlanders settled in the Appalachians, as previous posts have hinted, yet the region isn't famous for smallpiping. The most popular instrument seems to have been the fiddle.

I suspect that some of the difficulty is that the bagpipes were a diatonic instrument at a time when art music was developing in chromatic directions. There may have been heaps of pipes in folks' luggage, and there may be mention of them in letters and diaries, but they weren't widely appreciated or cultivated. If this is so, and the pipes came on the boat but were simply "hidden", then scholarship might be able to ferret them out.

T.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:18 PM

Cape Fear as the name for a centre of Highland Piping - sounds fitting enough.

Pipes of Cremona - I wonder if Stradivarius ever turned his hands to making a set.

I see the tendency to think of the pipes as a particularly Scottish or Celtic instrument is current even here, whereas most European countries, and many Middle Eastern have one or two in their tradition. And the Warpipes are only one of the types of pipes current in Scotland, and they are pretty the only type of bagpipes which are intended to be played at high volume to get their full effect.

As for the difficulty of making pipes - well there are lots of fine pipes being made these days by craftsmen who are pretty skillful, but no more so I'd say than those making other instruments.

I suppose it's something to do with the timing and circumstances of emigration. Which makes even more puzzling the apparent failure of the French in Quebec to hold on to the bagpipes, because here you had a rural community established at the time when the bagpipes were at their height of popularity in France, and then conquered and occupied by the English in a way that, I'd have thought, would have guaranteed that the musette would take on the same kind of cultural significance that the bagpipes did in the Highlands.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 07:54 PM

The HTML didn't accept the carriage returns in my preformatted section.

Here again is the quotation about the Highland lady:

Assuming by their speech that they must inevitably be fellow Highlanders, she came nearer, only to discover that their skin was black. Then she knew that her worst foreboding about the climate of the South was not un- founded and cried in horror, "A Dhí nan fras, am fas sinn bhuile mar sin "?(O God of mercy, are we all going to turn black like that?)[Citation to Meyer, Highland Scots, p. 119, and Charles W. Dunn, Highland Settler: A Portrait of the Scottish Gael in Nova Scotia, Toronto, 1953, p. 138.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 07:52 PM

McGrath,

Here is some more detail about the Scots Highlander settlement in the Cape Fear Valley, from David Hackett Fisher, Albion's Seed, Oxford U.P., 1989, page 818:

"Highland Scots began to arrive circa 1732. Many followed after the '45 rebellion, and by 1776 their numbers were nearly as large as the white population of the South Carolina low country. [Citation to Duane Meyer, The Highland Scots of North Carolina 1732-1776, Chapel Hill, 1961.] Other ethnic groups also settled in the Cape Fear Valley, but so dominant were highlanders that Gaelic came to be spoken in this region even by people who were not scots. There is a story of a newly arrived Highland lady who heard two men speaking in Gaelic:

Assuming by their sppech that they must inevitably  be fellow Highlanders, she came nearer, only to discover   that their skin was black.  Then she knew that her worst  foreboding  about the climate of the South was not un-  founded  and cried in horror, "A Dhí nan fras,   am fas sinn bhuile mar sin "?(O God of mercy, are we all  going to turn black like  that?)

[Citation to Meyer, Highland Scots, p. 119, and Charles W. Dunn, Highland Settler: A Portrait of the Scottish Gael in Nova Scotia, Toronto, 1953, p. 138.

Even in the twentieth century, the Cape Fear pepole sent to Scotland for minsiters who were required to wear the kilt, play the pipes, and preach in Gaelic. [Citation to "Personal conversation with Charles Joyner"].

Cape Fear is in the southernmost part of North Carolina. Presumably the Cape Fear Valley is the valley in which lies the Cape Fear river, enters the saltwater at Cape Fear.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes at Furnerals
From: Bugsy
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 07:09 PM

Jim, The reason for playing bagpipes at funerals is to let the mourners know that the corpe's suffering is over, whereas the Mourners still have to stand around and suffer the earbashing of the pipes. I just hope that they don't have them in the life beyond.

CHeers

Bugsy

Whosonlyjokingreally.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Barry T
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 05:47 PM

Laments at funerals were commonly played on the fiddle or the pipes, but the latter became a tradition because they were the instrument at the front in the British regiments when troops fell in battle and were honoured by their comrades. In more modern times the pipers also served as stretcher bearers, so they were always on or near the battlefield where the wounded were assembled and the dead laid to rest. The playing of the lament was simply an extension of their duties.

Pipe music played well evokes extraordinary emotion. Whether of Scottish descent or not, most folks succumb to tears at funerals when the pipes play... and I'll freely admit that the piper loses it, too, on occasion.

The tradition really took hold after the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards recorded Amazing Grace back in the 70's. Thereafter it was heard at many well-publicised funerals of famous people. It is now especially common at ceremonies honouring those who have fallen while on duty... soldiers, firefighters, police. The Flowers of the Forest is the traditional standard for military ceremonies, but there are other tunes that are equally poignant, such as Going Home and Hector the Hero.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Irish Rover
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 04:45 PM

The pipe tune "Flowers of the Forest" though originaly a Campbell funeral tune became the standard military graveside tune. When I worked for the fire dpt. in Chicago most funerals had a piper, as well as a bugler, black, white, made no difference. please remember only 5% of celts are pipers. most of us have tried at some point but they are extremly difficult. That alone may have some bering on the problem. and as for making a set, I doubt seriously if you could attaine the tones nessary. have to be one hell of a craftsman. I too am a rabid fan of the pipes, but I'm also a banjo player so I guess my taste is in question.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 03:23 PM

"Piobaireachds (piobrochs) were often written to commemorate an event (e.g., Laments for death are very common) or had practical uses in Highland society (e.g., Gathering of the Clans). These tunes are generally several minutes in length and, when well played, are some of the most inspiring music of the bagpipe".

I am not a piper but that may explain the tradition of the Scots or those of Scottish decent having a piper "to pipe them home".

Subject: Bagpipes at funerals
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:42 PM

Regarding bagpipes -- I'm curious about the custom of playing bagpipes at funerals. I first saw this in the 1979 movie, "The Onion Field," based on a true story, depicting the funeral of a Los Angeles police officer killed in the line of duty. At the time, I got the impression this was a one-off occurrence because the officer in question was of Scottish descent and had been a piper himself.

Since then I have seen, on TV news, funerals of several prominent Americans (or people, like the officer, who became famous because of the circumstances of their deaths) at which bagpipes were played.

I'd like to hear from pipers. Have you ever played at a funeral? Is this customary? Is it only customary among people of Scottish descent? Has it become more common recently?

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:41 PM

The Great Highland Pipes had also lost some of their popularity by the time migration to the Americas had begun, when music venues tended to be held inside rather than in the great outdoors. They were just too damned loud.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:34 PM

Kevin, as you know, the dulcimore/pipes correlation is a widely held opinion, but I do wonder if the Southern Mountain tradition was more "song" oriented than "tune" oriented? There certainly was a lot of fiddle tunes though........It just strikes me that the "oral" traditions of the region tended toward songs and porch singing.

Just a thought.

Spaw

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:27 PM

McGrath, I learned of this community in a book called Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fisher, then (and perhaps still) of Brandeis University. I don't have the book with me at the moment, so I can't give you the particulars. Maybe someone else on-list can find it before I do.

T.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Metchosin
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:15 PM

sort of off topic but, my brother and I were discussing the following article yesterday, about the famous pipers of Clan MacCrimmon (he finds this particularly interesting as his wife is of Scottish decent but is Italian)

the following is as excerpt from the Inditer

The Great MacCrimmons

Where did they come from?

"In my writings concerning the origins of pipes in general and The Great Highland Bagpipe in particular, it was my intention to speak also of the aristocratic and noble Clan MacCrimmon, who were the hereditary pipers to the MacLeods on Dunvegan on the Isle of Skye

.

The MacCrimmons are accepted as the unchallenged doyens of pipers who lived in Borreraig, close to the MacLeod stronghold, Dunvegan Castle. In Borreraig the conducted their famous College of Piping, father and sons, all fine pipers and composers, during the period of approximately 1600 to 1800.

Sometime, back in the early 1950's I believe, Seumas MacNeil, the then principal of the Glasgow College of Piping, along with his associate Thomas Pearston, became curious as to the origins of the great MacCrimmons, and set about doing some research.

How long they took with their research I do not know exactly, but I believe that it was almost three years. Their studies finally led them to Europe, specifically to Italy, and there, the began to uncover some shattering and incendiary evidence - evidence tying the MacCrimmons to Cremona.

I can well imagine the pair of them sitting in their hotel room, or more likely, the bar, getting slowly smashed as they faced the fact that sometime soon they would be returning to Glasgow to tell a few thousand fanatical nationalists, pipers to boot, that their clan heros were Italian. That's what you call a sobering thought, but I'll bet it didn't stop the lads from knocking back every bottle of Glen Fiddich in the establishment.

Any way, D-day finally came, and Messers MacNeil and Pearston faced their eager-faced, bright- eyed audience, all of whom no doubt had 'wet their whistle' in anticipation of a very exciting evening!

The paper was duly read, passage by passage, and ugly stirring could be felt in the tense atmosphere. A long stunned silence, and then an uproar as at Hamden Park when the 'Celts" lose - 6-0. I wasn't there, but I heard that is was wild with terrible words being used, threats of grievous body harm, and a lot of accusations as to whose parents were never married. Stuff like that - isn't that awful?

Anyway, it's all died down now. For some time after I heard people referring to Pipe Major MacNeil as 'Shameless MacNeil' - that's not very nice, is it? He's a nice man and a fine piper. I suppose things have changed a bit, with Tokyo Pipe Band, Idi Amins Pipe Band (wearing the Royal Stuart Tartan. Is nothing sacred anymore?"

Apparently the Cremona family, in the Northern Italian city of Cremona are still carrying on their tradition on the Italian Bagpipes.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM

Right - now how about penny whistles? Or similar. Easy to make, tough, portable, versatile, and definitely played in America. But were/are they used up in the mountains and suchlike, or in black communities?

'spaw's suggestion about dulcimers as a (gag)pipes substitute for poor people makes a lot of sense. But the places where pipes survived and were central to the tradition weren't exactly rich, and if the skills are there I believe it's not that hard to make a very playable set of pipes.

I'm still hoping that someone is going to come up with some living tradition somewhere that's been ignored. You've got a big country there. I liked the sound of that North Carolina pipe-playing gaelic speaking community Okie mentioned...

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:57 AM

Who?

Spaw

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Mbo
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:47 AM

Does anyone know that the hammered dulcimer was used in the rock opera "Tommy" by The Who?

--Mbo

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:38 AM

Its generally believed that the App Dulcimer gained popularity in the mountains because the sound (drone strings) gave a sound that many were familiar with and fit in well with the music. Pipes probably never made it into the mountains much because of the relative cost and complexity of the instrument (and I use that term loosely). And contrary to popular belief, not everyone had a dulcimore either.

John OTH was probably right in his assessment of ocean crossings too!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 09:43 AM

I heard that there was (and may still be) a Scots highlander community in (I think) North Carolina. Until sometime after 1900, among the requirements for their church pastor were: He had to be able to speak Gaelic and play the pipes.

T.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 01:43 PM

I was listening to some Appalachian "high lonesome" singing, and I was thinking, that really would fit with the pipes, can't get more high lonesome than that. The same kind of thing you can do with a mountain dulcimer, drones and all, would be great with the pipes.

So what happened to stop that kind of thing? Were there religious scruples about the pipes even worse than about the fiddle?

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:38 PM

"There was some discussion at the time as to whether the pipes were a weapon" - I wonder if they'd be covered by the 2nd Amendment? That could be a while new musical angle for the gun law threads to pursue...

All the talk so far seems to have been around the warpipes played by Scottish regiments (and Irish as well), and out in places like Pakistan where they are mostly made, and still used by the military to ibspire the troops and terrify the enemy.

But there are all the other types of pipes around, with most European countries having one or two varieties. So didn't any of them take root?

For example, bagpipes ("les musettes") are a major instrument in French country music still. I've never heard of this tradition being carried over into French America, neither in Cajun country nor in Quebec. But given the devotion musicians have to their instruments and the way they manage to pass it on, I can't see how it could have failed to be carried over.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:41 PM

Okay, so I didn't proffreed, *BG*, forgot to say, YES, the Tannahill Weavers! You can listen to two entire CD's of theirs at Green Linnet Records.

kat-grandaughter of Flora :^)

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:36 PM

Ach, then there is hoep for me! Thanks!

Yes, Malcolm, I would be very interested, although I'll bet i cna find some verification on line, over the weekend, so may save you a trip. I have a bunch of Scottish sites bookmarked. If I find anything, I'll post it, or a link, okay?

kathudson-crawford-ewing-gordon-etc.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:37 AM

Kat: Although I use the nom de plume Irish Sergeant With a name like MacMillan there is Heiland blood in my veins. Another group that has used the pipes for other than march music is Scotland's Tannahill Weavers. I have their album passages and it is quite good. Be adviced that you are not sick Kat! If you're Scottish a love of pipe music is quite natural> (Although I have several brothers and sisters who would argue. My father God rest him would not. Neil

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 10:51 AM

Ah, the old chestnut about the Outlawing of the Pipes!  Many people do believe this, but it never happened in Scotland.  There was some discussion at the time as to whether the pipes were a weapon and therefore covered by the Disarming Acts, but I believe that there was never a successful prosecution.  Once the libraries are open again after Easter, I can get you chapter and verse on that if you'd like.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 01:46 AM

Maybe it also had to do with the pipes being outlawed by the English? I don't know if this carried on enough to make some not want to take them up again after coming across the pond or not. My own ancestors were Scots, come to Nova Scotia and then Colorado and I've never heard of any pipes among them. Some of them were Sutherlands. We had a great thread about a song about Sutherlands getting run out of Scotland, but I'd have to check the dates of all to see if this would've had any bearing.

Interesting, Kevin. Thanks,

kat (who thinks they must run deep in the blood anyway because I can't them enough...never tire of them. Should I seek help?**BG**)

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Barry T
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:50 AM

I agree with Sophocleese... Though piping in the military may well have saved the instrument from extinction, it also imposed the musical objectives of absolute consistency and precision; pipers were judged by their peers against those two criteria, and departure from them was frowned upon.

It is only recently (within the last 25 years or so) that we have seen more radical and creative tune writing. Coined by some as kitchen piping, this style has stretched the performance envelope and challenged old assumptions. Neil Dickie's Clumsy Lover is a great example of this style and is popular both as a pipe tune and as a fiddle tune. These new tunes are enormously fun to play and to listen to, and they are now standard fare alongside traditional material at competitions and in concert.

A further comment: I think the piping community is generally dedicated to preserving the old traditions, tunes and styles of playing. Other than classical music, it's one of the few instruments where such motivation is steadfast.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: Kelida
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:31 AM

One of the guys in Korn (a terrible band, by the way) plays pipes. My friend Seth just got some to play. I saw a rock band called Off-Kilter that had a bagpipe in the regular line-up--and they wore kilts! Maybe pipes are becomeing popular as a rock instrument?

Peace--Keli

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: sophocleese
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:08 PM

Bagpipes were regarded by the the British as an instrument of war until just after the Second World War. They have been much more closely associated with the military and its regimentation than the fiddle has. Innovation, musical or not, is not generally considered a virtue in the military. There are many pipers still who will not play unless they are in a kilt. We are beginning to see more play with the pipes though. Rare Air and MacCrimmon's Revenge being two bands I can think of at the moment that are using them.

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: GUEST,John of the Hill
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:10 PM

Perhaps in the days of long ocean passages to the New World, there was a point about halfway where the choice was given, "Either the piper or the pipes go over the side"? John

Subject: RE: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:36 PM

Sorry about the spelling there. That should have been flute players in the Andes; and bagpipes, not bagpies (though that could be a fascinating instrument...) to correctb the most glaring errors.

Subject: MusicalBS: Bagpipes in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 07:26 PM

This started in another thread about ideas for new threads.

Anyway one I suggested went: "Why didn't penny whistles and bagpipes make it across the Atlantic to become part of the native tradition?", and a couple of people came on to talk about it, so I said I'd start a thread.

Now I know there are Scots Canadians playing bagpipes in Canada and Irish Amnericans playing the pipes in Boston and so forth, and no doubt in other places across the continent. And I know the same goes for the penny whistle, in Irish sessions all over.

But what I mean is something different. Other instruments went across the Atklantic, and went native. Fiddlers in the Ozarks or in Cajun country, or the Appalachians or Novia Scotia, or anywhere aren't playing the same way as they do back in Ireland or Scotland or anywhere else. Squeeze boxes played by Cajun or Tex-Mex musicians don't sound like Morris Dancers. The same goes for Guitars.

But so far as I know, this doesn't seem to have happened to the bagpipes, neither in North America or clear down to Paraguay (and there's some great bagpipe playing in Galicia, wich was one of the main parts of Spain that people left from to go to America.

And the same seems to have happened to the penny whistle and its relatives. (Apart from flutes in tye Andews, and that'sfrom a different tradition I suppose) And I'm even more puzzled by that, because it's such a portable and tough instrument.

I'm hoping that in fact all this is a misundersatnding, and it's just that the spotlight has missed out on these instruments. Maybe somewhere there are mountainy people playing them on porches, and noone has thought to listen. Maybe there are bagpies blues pklayers...

(And if there aren't, maybe it's time there were...)