BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?

Subject: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: BlueJay
Date: 07 May 00 - 03:20 AM

OK folks- My daughter is nine years old, and wants a guitar. She's messed around with mine for awhile, mostly making noise. That's OK, she's having fun. I usually end up tuning it open, because she's not taking direction well, and it seems to me her fingers just aren't long enough yet to really learn how to play the guitar. I myself didn't begin the guitar till I was 13 or so. I do want to encourage her, as she is musically oriented. She's taking piano lessons and probably knows theory better than me. She has trouble with the steel string guitar, but it seems to me that a classical guitar might make things worse with the wider neck. Have any of you ever faced this dilemma? Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Giac
Date: 07 May 00 - 05:08 AM

Hi, BlueJay -

I've started a few young'uns on the way and the best
way I've found is to get one of those "half-size"
guitars with nylon strings. Some are not so wonderful
, so you have to check out a few to make sure to get one
that is in fairly close register. They do exist as
I've found two. The youngest I've started with were
five years old. Both kids were desperate to play, so
they paid attention. I try to make it fun and not like
lessons. As the hands grow, you can increase the size
of the guitar, to three-quarter with steel strings,
then to full-size.

I'll probably catch flack for this, but it seems to
work, IMHO. I've never been a professional teacher,
just got them started. Most of them stayed with it,
moving on to "real" teachers who could provide theory,
and so forth. My goal was to teach them to feel time
and be able to play along with two chords at first
then three and see where they go from there.

I usually start them with a D chord because it is so
easy to switch to a partial A7 -and there you go. They
can play along to scores of little ditties with those
two chords, then it is not so hard to add a G when the
time comes. I've found that the most important thing
to remember is to keep it fun. Once it isn't, they
lose interest, it becomes a chore and they start to
fuss, then they quit trying.

As I noted, most of the little ones I started with
stuck with it and one plays professionally, but that
was no thanks to me - she moved on to a professional
teacher when she was 9. However, by then she could
accompany herself on literally dozens of tunes, had a
good sense of rhythm and a good ear for change. She
also could hold her own playing with others. I must
add here that she did "desperately" want it. She wore
out the first little guitar in a year, then went
through another inexpensive three-quarter one before
getting a decent six-string when she was seven.

Gosh, didn't mean to ramble on, but that's my nickle's
worth. Hope it helps.

giac

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: black walnut
Date: 07 May 00 - 08:15 AM

I had to chuckle when you asked if 9 years old was possibly too young to begin guitar. I am an early childhood music teacher at a conservatory in Toronto. I teach classes for babies (aged birth to 3 years) and their parent/caregivers. A few weeks ago, a mother tried out one of my classes with her 2 year old. She left quite upset, because she had wanted me to teach her 2 year old to play the guitar, and I had said to her that I didn't think a 2 year old child was quite old enough yet to begin guitar lessons! She had the idea that since her son loved to strum a toy guitar, it was a sign that he was ready for the real thing. I tried to explain to her that it is very useful for a child to have a fun group experience with music, with all its singing and dancing and rhythm instruments, before settling into an instrument....I tried to explain that learning an enjoyment of music through body and voice is the best foundation for future endeavours, not to mention a darned good time for the child and parent/caregiver alike. She would have none of it! If I wasn't going to teach her 2 year old how to play guitar, she would look elsewhere!

I never saw that woman again.....(and I wonder what chord that little boy is practicing today?!)

~black walnut

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 07 May 00 - 08:42 AM

If your child at 9 is willing to try, then she's ready. One hard lesson I had to learn is that I may not be my child's best teacher. We struggled through fiddle, guitar, and piano together; it wasn't until she began flute lessons at school that she discovered the instrument of her heart. The band teacher isn't the best in the world so we started her with a private teacher and now she's loving it! Do I play flute? Yes, I do- but I didn't try to teach my own kid!
The smaller sized guitar for the smaller-sized player is a good idea, but Giac is right that the quality should be pretty good. Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Mooh
Date: 07 May 00 - 09:18 AM

Good morning.

I agree with Giac. However I'm not one to take students that young, and I usually refer younger students to a very good local teacher that will take them (or put them on a waiting list). This isn't because I can't or won't teach them, but because this other teacher has a superior kids program, and I prefer older students. I'm sure he doesn't mind the referals.

I hate the thought of discouraging anyone from playing guitar, but I still believe there's serious physical limitations before age nine that can only be overcome by a small scale instrument with soft (ie, nylon) strings. It's not the understanding of music or even the coordination that's the issue, it's simply the size relative to small hands. The size of the instrument, the size of the strings, the size of the string tension and so on. When a parent once exclaimed that her kid couldn't play mandolin despite its size, I had some difficulty explaining that the tension on mandolin strings even makes it hard for many adults.

Lately I've seen some South American half and 3/4 guitars with nylon strings which were quite playable, and quite affordable. Brazilian maybe? But be careful, these things don't get alot of respect in some music stores, and may need some setup attention before they're purchased.

My two cents, but I'd like to hear other opinions, as I'm thinking of accepting younger students, so as to decrease my dependence on a second job, and teach ME something.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 May 00 - 11:27 AM

Chris Newman is one of the finest guitar players I have ever heard. I got to speak to him when he played at our folk club and he told me he had been playing since the age of about 2. I'm not sure how honest he was being but I guess the message is the earlier the better!

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: tar_heel
Date: 07 May 00 - 12:03 PM

i got my first guitar when i was 12 years old.it was a christmas present from my mom and dad!a Stella Guitar, and still have it .(50 years ago this christms.) i didn't think too much about it then,but now it seems that every one i know now in the music business,started playing the guitar at age 12.i guess it was just a magical age of the 50's when i was growing up............but times and kids have changed ,so who knows what age is the best! but,i must say all those folks i know who started at age 12,can sure pick the fire out of a guitar now!!of course,i'm sill learning!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: GUEST,Toad %\
Date: 07 May 00 - 02:31 PM

Hi. I became a member of this 'MudCat' thingy quite a while ago but everytime I post I get listed as 'guest'. Oh well. Anyway, I've been teaching for a long time now (ten years seriously) and I've taught a lot of people to play guitar. I used to take kids as young as nine and if parents insisted on younger kids taking guitar then I insisted on the parent taking the lesson with the kid. I thought that would be fun (taking guitar with the kid, I charged the same for a half hour lesson that I would have if the kid had been solo) but all it did was to show that the kid just wasn't ready to do something as structured as learn the guitar. So now my cut off it ten year old. But I don't recomend that young. I think twelve years old is a good age to start guitar and that fourteen is even better. Most of my students that start at seventeen can catch up to what another seventeen year old, who has taken guitar for four years, in the same winter. Of course there are a lot of variables. Every person is different. Some kids start at twelve and just fly because they are truly intregued with the guitar. Some fly even faster because not only are they intregued but are truly obsessed. These make the best musicians. (Although their lives are usually awash with disevilment and I wouldn't wish this trate on anyone but they do make teaching a joy because it looks like you are actually doing a great job but in truth these people would learn the instrument if they where living in complete isolation. These types of kids are rare. If you own one of these types of people then don't worry, they will become musician).

It's never early to get a kid a musical instrument. And if you are getting it for a play toy then it dosen't matter if the instrument is a little cheapish.

Most peole are normal. Normal people can become great musicians. A normal child should start around age 12-14. in my experience early starts for an instrument like guitar do not produce great results and in some cased produce the opposite results of what the parent wanted to have happen. The guitar is the most popular instrument in the world because it is the most veritile. One can play tunes on it as well as it is a great instrument to accompany a singer or another melody instrumet. But it requires a person become active in the mechanics of the instrument. When I have parents who wants a child to take instruction at an earlier age I usually recomend that they seek a piano instructor. Piano is an instrument where the mechanics of the instrument have been taken care of by someone else and with one one can clearly see what has to take place in order to make a sound. A very young student can take this instrument (with the right teacher) and still have some fun while learning about music. I feel guitar can be too frusterating for a child as young as eight or ten to have to wrap that childs brain around all the tedium that goes along with maintaining, tuning and then pushing the strings down hard enough on a guitar.

Of course then there are the 'gifted children' who can take lessons at a much youger age. Of course your (and my) children belong to this group. And becuse anyone with half a mind (as I have) can see by the way they sing along to my old Kiss records they have real talent. To these kids parents I have to insist that they accompany the child in the lessons because of the natures of the guitar and then (if they follow through with the first lesson) they usually last for three lessons and then piss off until the child is a little older. It's a great lesson for the parents to learn, I pocket the thirty bucks, and the unfortunate child has to sit through three boring lessons while their parent stumbels and fumbles with the cheap guitar that they perchased for ninety buck because they wanted to wait and see if the child showed 'real promise' before they went and wasted three hundred bucks on a real 'enter level' guitar.

I think that the best thing for kids is to be around music. It sounds like you are doing that. No rush to start your nine year old on too structured a course. Watch for the signs and if she is truly ready for lessons then she'll let you know. I also think that it is a good idea to get ones feet wet in lessons. By this I mean, to take a few (or two) lessons and see how it goes and then take a few more after a break. Music is supposed to be fun. One learns fastest when the activity is fun. Start a kid to young and it's not fun. I agree with BlackWalnut. I wish I could have gotten my kids into a music program like the one he teaches.

I'm kind of new to this internet thing. Is this post too long? Or does it matter?

Sincerely Toad %\

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 May 00 - 02:48 PM

Toad, I'm posting here as I have no other means of getting in touch with you. You do exist as a member. Try clicking on Membership. You should see a line that reads something like "if you are already a member and your details do not appear below, click here". Follow the click here link and enter "Toad" (it is case sensitave) as the code name and submit the form. With luck, the system will find you and you will be prompted for your password. Supply that and you should be back to being a member. if you have any other problems with membership, please post to the help forum. Joe Offer seems to be able to find solutions for just about everything.

Re length of posts: purely my personal opinion, if you have 2 pages worth to say on a subject, say it.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: black walnut
Date: 07 May 00 - 04:46 PM

hi toad, and welcome!

just for the record, i'm a 'she'.....

~black walnut

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: BlueJay
Date: 07 May 00 - 11:20 PM

Thanks for your help everyone. Maybe I'll just let her keep playing my guitar, and if she persists, try and find a decent pint-sized model. BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Terry K
Date: 08 May 00 - 12:44 AM

So what you all seem to be saying is that when I started learning guitar 3 weeks ago I was not too young (I'm 56).

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Mooh
Date: 08 May 00 - 09:24 AM

Well Terry, you might be a little too young at heart, but chronologically you're okay. After a point, age means nothing anyway, except to other people. One of my regular bandmates keeps picking up new instruments, often unrelated to others he plays, and he's got a season or two on you. I hope I can do the same when I get there...

Nice work, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 May 00 - 10:32 AM

My two cents: I have watched some children growing up over the past few years from a somewhat musical family, and I have noticed that one of the drawbacks of the piano is that it seems to be quite intimidating (it is pretty big), and there is this mountain of quite rigid musical stuff that seems to get laid on the kids by every teacher they have had. There is a formal aura about it. I notice that none of the kids sits at the piano for fun. Only when they have to practice. The guitar doesn't seem to have any of that: maybe because they are all over the TV. It may make more sense for some kids to have them sneak up on the whole musical enterprise casually (of course the best thing is to have a family that plays music together, but how many of those are there these days?).

I was wondering how the experts on child music learning here deal with the formality of lessons with children. I am not saying formality is a bad thing (kids get not much structure as it is). Just wondering. It does seem to turn music into something "special", not homey, ordinary. But maybe that is a folk bias.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: black walnut
Date: 08 May 00 - 11:17 AM

I am often asked when children should begin children taking private music lessons. By this, people generally mean piano lessons. I always try to steer people to wait until their child is at least in grade 2 at school, so the child has had a chance to adjust to a full day of school. There are quite a few options, at least in big cities, for children to enjoy music in group singing and games, as pre-schoolers. There is also the well-known Suzuki approach, which when done well, can be enjoyable for both child and adult.

I feel that most children and adults, no matter what the instrument, have the best chance of enjoying their instrument and continuing with music when they have the opportunity to play often with other players. The same goes for singers, who generally do best when they can join a choir, or some sort of singing group. The social aspect of playing in an ensemble or orchestra or band or group is so much of the fun part of making the music. I am not talking about the performance aspect, which can be a joy for some and an intimidation for others. I am talking about the regular getting together and sharing the music with others. And I believe that this is true for any kind of music, be it folk or classical or jazz or .....

Choosing the right teacher has EVERYTHING in my opinion to do with the feeling the child or adult will have for learning music. A teacher might create ensembles for the students, or support them in finding suitable groups or music partners. But, even more importantly, they will pace and direct the lessons according to the particular students needs and desires. No one should have to feel 'rigid' or 'boxed-in' by a teacher.

Everyone's needs are different. As a young learner, I absolutely loved sitting at the piano and playing scales and arpeggios for up to 2 hours a day. Then I'd start the pieces. It was not work or drudgery to me....it was a time to be alone and to think and to feel comfortable with the piano. But I realize that most children are not like that!

My son had a fabulous piano teacher when he was little. With great FUN, she taught him how to read music. She also taught him to play by ear, which is something that many classical teachers avoid, but which I think makes the instrument come alive for the child. It makes it their own personal voice. Now, my son is nearly 16, and plays in an advanced level percussion ensemble. The concerts are fun, but it's definitely the weekly getting together and laughing-as-you-learn-in-a-group approach that keeps his at it and signing up for lessons every year.

Neither of my children are terribly keen on making music with a parent. But when they make music with their peers that's fine with me. Listening to lots of live music has been a big part of their experience as well.

~black walnut, (who has taught music from newborns to high schoolers to senior citizens, and loves it all)

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Bert
Date: 08 May 00 - 11:25 AM

A few weeks ago we had a little toddler visiting. She wanted to 'Play' my guitar so much. I let her play with a cheap ukelele which I tuned to an open tuning. She had great fun with it. I would have let her keep it if she had had anyone in her family interested enough in taking it further.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Grab
Date: 08 May 00 - 12:24 PM

As Peter says, it can get to be too formal. After 8-10 years learning violin & piano at school, I couldn't take any more. Trouble is, when you're having lessons then you've got to practice. Your folks are paying good money for your lessons, so they'll force you to practice so that you're not wasting their money. But this doesn't exactly make you want to play - music then becomes a kind of a chore, like washing-up. And if that's the way of it, I guess the child isn't really ready to learn - or maybe they should take a break from the instrument for a bit.

I'd reckon early teens is probably about the right time - younger kids don't have enough concentration, and may pick an instrument cos it looks nice, or cos the person they saw playing it looked cool. And in your early teens, you're still learning quick enough to pick it up much faster than adults. But if they're younger and they really want to learn, let 'em! :-)

I'm dubious about parents who say "I want my child to learn XYZ". It's the old poem "They fuck you up, your mum and dad" all over. I think any parent who shows signs of forcing their kid to do something like that "because I never had the opportunity"/"because you'll be grateful later on"/"because it'll impress the neighbours" should have their kids adopted to get the poor little sods out of there. Do they really have so little respect for their kids that they regard them as just extensions of themselves, not individuals in their own right?

When I started guitar a few years back, I found a book written by a guitar teacher who said he started his first lesson with the words "I can't teach you guitar, but I _can_ help you learn." Says it all really.

The other problem is the whole classical thing - I think classical training has done more than anything else to remove fun from music. Try finding a classical musician who can improvise, and good luck - doubt you'll find many out there. You get to be not much more than a human player-piano, converting dots on the page into music. OK, you can add tone, feeling, style and all the rest, but you can only play the dots you're given. That's where guitar gets out - you learn it first as an 'accompanying' instrument, so by the time you start playing actual tunes on it, you've got an instinctive feel for the chords behind it. And again, good luck finding a classical musician who can tell you what a type a chord is by hearing it - but every guitarist knows what a 7th chord or a maj7 or a diminished sounds like.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: black walnut
Date: 08 May 00 - 12:42 PM

grab,

i'm offended.

i was trained classically. i loved it. i am learning folk. i love it.

i know an awful lot of classical players who can hear chords and who can play marvellously well 'by ear'. just because someone can read music really well doesn't mean they can't also interpret it very well.

please don't let your bad personal experiences mean that you will write off a huge segment of inspired, talented, creative, and genuine musicians, just because they don't do it the same way you do.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 08 May 00 - 12:50 PM

Grab, you may have over-stated it a little, but I agree with you about the deadening aspect of classical pedagogy. I studied classical guitar for years, and still play it (after a fashion). But I had the good fortune to be playing other types of music as well, so I was able to engage in both a disciplined course of study and free creative exploration. Also, classical guitar has yet to catch up with piano, violin, and more established orchestral instruments in the rigidity of the course of study that is inflicted on the student -- I only hope that it never gets there.

It's worth noting that this rigidity is a relatively recent phenomenon. In the baroque and classical eras, musicians were taught the structural underpinnings of the music, and encouraged to improvise. In fact, many of his contemporaries considered Beethoven to be a much better improvisor than composer.

Those who would impose a similar rigid orthodoxy on other forms of music (jazz comes to mind) would do well to consider whether they are killing the thing that they love.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: black walnut
Date: 08 May 00 - 01:37 PM

whistle,

thanks for bringing in the wee history lesson....well said.

i am not trying to create an argument here. on the contrary, i am merely trying to point out that there are many ways to enjoy and to learn music. i don't feel that i suffered at all by having private structured conservatory style lessons. i loved them. my sister, on the other hand, had the same teacher but did not love her lessons and did not like to practice. for her it was agony, and she was glad to quit. she probably would have felt the same even if rick fielding was teaching her the banjo....we're just very different people with quite different passions.

these days i do almost nothing but play and sing folk music. my cd shelves are full of folk cd's. but, it is not a rejection of my roots. it is just a different musical world.

imho, ~'nut

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: BlueJay
Date: 08 May 00 - 02:32 PM

Now my daughter, (the original subject of this thread), loves playing the piano, but I admit it does get to be a bit of a chore at times. But we're lucky in that her piano teacher tries to incorporate ear training, so that she doesn't, in Grab's eloquent terms, turn into a "human player piano". I have known folks from both extremes: some express themselves magnificently from the sheet music, but are lost as far as improv. And others who don't know a sharp from an eighth note, who can play along with just about anything. Most folks land somewhere in the middle
I've noticed it helps when Ican find time to have fun with her, either playing duets, (though I can't really play the piano), or teaching her songs to sing. She's also trying to play the harmonica, and wants to play guitar. I think a lot of it is seeing family members and friends having a blast jamming. She's not a prodigy or anything. I sincerely doubt she'll turn into a concert pianist. But she's having fun with music at an early age, and wants to try everything out. But I really do think the theory she's learning will help her in the long run, as long as she remains diversified. BTW, she likes soccer and baseball as much as she likes music.

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Ely
Date: 08 May 00 - 02:34 PM

Peter T--I started piano lessons when I was . . . maybe seven? I can't remember now. I guess I didn't think it was the most fun in the world simply because it required me to sit still for long enough to practice (I had this same problem when I took violin for a year at age 4). I don't think it matters what instrument it is--if you're going to practice and learn the basics, it's going to be a little tedious. Incidentally, I started playing the guitar at age 16 and was very glad for the theory I had learned on the piano. Not that you have to take piano to learn it, but I think it was easier to learn it on the piano where you get one note per key instead of trying to figure it out on several notes per string, as one has to do on a guitar.

I've heard that children should be started on musical instruments as young as they can handle it because it "wires" their brains, making it easier for them to learn more later (sort of like learning a foreign language--it's easier when you're little).

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: black walnut
Date: 08 May 00 - 02:42 PM

bravo, bluejay! it all sounds terrific!

~'nut

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Toad
Date: 08 May 00 - 06:33 PM

Hmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Toad
Date: 08 May 00 - 06:36 PM

HEY! IT WORKED. Opps. Excuse me I got excited. But anyway I'm recognized as a mudcatter instead of just a guest so I feel like a real person again. Thanks for the info Jon.

Toad %

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Toad
Date: 08 May 00 - 06:37 PM

HEY! IT WORKED. Opps. Excuse me I got excited. But anyway I'm recognized as a mudcatter instead of just a guest so I feel like a real person again. Thanks for the info Jon.

Toad %\

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: Toad
Date: 08 May 00 - 06:41 PM

Opps again. I'd better get out of here.

toad%(

Subject: RE: BS: Guitar: What Age To Start?
From: sophocleese
Date: 09 May 00 - 04:21 PM

Not only that Toad% but you should learn to spell "oops", Where I'm sitting Opp means Ontario Provincial Police. :)