Riverdance. Good or bad?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 May 00 - 07:00 PM

I liked the cartoon which depicted a dust-covered book with the title "Irish Dancing Book II - The use of the Arms" !

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: JulieF
Date: 21 May 00 - 12:06 PM

The problem that I and many of the people that I know have with Riverdance was not the the show but it was the fact that it didn't develop and it it refect backwards. People assume that Riverdance is Irish dance and anything else is not. If you have a company of dancers that all about the same size and shape you can do wonders. On one notible occasion one of Cat's dancing teachers sorted her kids out in size to work on displays three months before a big festival. By the time they got to the festival they had all grown and developed at different rates so vision had be obscured.

On the positive side. It brought many kids in to Irish dancing, especially the boys. For a while there was a trend for simpler dresses in competition for the older girls. Unfortunatly this didn't last. ( you do not want to know the price of Irish dancing competition dresses). People also got into the music from there - which has to be a good thing. Some kids I know had the chance to work with a large dance company which will stay with them regardless of what they do next.

Julie

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: roopoo
Date: 21 May 00 - 05:55 AM

I think it has done a lot to popularise celtic music, which is no bad thing, speaking as one half Irish, but what strikes me is that now to the uninitiated, all traditional music from the British Isles is Irish! It probably has done wonders for the cultural uptake in Ireland, but it has been felt, I think, much wider than that in that most "non-folk" people here in England seem to think of Irish music when their minds turn to folk, not to their own. This is not the fault of Riverdance. I think it may be a side effect of a truly multi-cultural society, where English tradition is now just one of many. And let's face it, Riverdance as it was first seen came like a bolt out of the blue. It woke me up from my usual Eurovision nap and I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing.

I am, however, put in mind of an episode of "Cow and Chicken" where girls are auditioning for a speaking part in a film, and every one bar our horned heroine is a "Puddledancer" much to the director's disgust.

mouldy

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Spider Tom
Date: 21 May 00 - 04:57 AM

Riverdance was and is, an ambitious endeavour.
From the "acorn" planted on Eurovision, to the grand
stage production, it has given the world at large a sample of a remarkable endureing culture.
Like many things that attempt to do so much, it struggles to tell a huge story, and this it does well to the likes of me, a mongrel Aussie with a good swig of Irish blood in my body and soul.
Yes, it does this as a sort of romance.
As we, the disenfranchised children of a culture we will never truely know, grope for our inheritance, at least we can now do so without losing the dream.
And if it portrays the Irish as a nation of music loving dancing legs, at least it is closer to the truth, than the previous image of the stupid and ignorant, as was so fashionable in the Irish Joke times.
Another thing too, there is a story of hope and resurrection, through times of struggle.
Something that brings hope is GOOD.
I also loved the Dance and the music.
Spider Tom

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,June B
Date: 21 May 00 - 03:51 AM

I can't say I watched the video that closely. The dancing is great, of course. The piper was excellent. I was just annoyed by the new-agey celt-oid songs. There are so MANY lovely traditional Irish songs, couldn't they have used a couple? Nothing wrong with composed music, of course, and I happen to like some that might be called new-agey or celt-oid. But in this context, I felt cheated, no, I felt Irish music had been cheated out of a chance to really reach that audience. Just my opinion

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,Rosebrook
Date: 21 May 00 - 01:13 AM

I live in a remote area, and have never seen the show live. I like watching the video of Riverdance. It's a fun, upbeat show. I like the dancing, the music and the vocals. To me, it's fun and entertaining.

I really, really like watching the video of Riverdance taped in New York. The male principle dancer is not Michael Flatley (I forget his name) and he is good. Jean Butler is the female principle dancer and she is fantastic.

I like the Russian dance troupe better in the first Riverdance video. I am captivated by the "Spanish" dancer, and really enjoy the interaction between her and the featured fiddle player. I like being able to see more of the band in the NY video. Of course, I really enjoy the uillean pipes solo.

I am moved by the NY show in several places: the hoe-down-type large group dance, the drumming, the lovely vocals, and the dance between the two groups of fellows that reminds me of the Jets and the Sharks. : )

So, to me Riverdance is good. I've enjoyed watching it many times.

Rose

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: GUEST,John Twomey
Date: 21 May 00 - 12:30 AM

I just saw it last week, and I feel ambivilent about it: for some, it's the first time they're hearing anything sounding like traditional Irish music. If it leads them on, thats good: if it turns them off, that's bad.
But I was thinking, if you put on a show about Germanic culture would you compose music that sounds a little like Bach, a bit like Mozart, or would you draw on the great body of music that already exists: after all why reinvent the wheel. There is a great body of music of Irish music better than anything I heard Whelan compose. But what he did is good within the theatrical production in which it appears. I guess Riverdance is good for people who like both Irish music and big theatrical "Broadway like" productions and for people who love dance: I enjoyed the tappers best. I hate Broadway type shows, and I got dragged to Riverdance and left feeling, well, like I said, ambivilent and maybe a bit resentfull.
But in the last six weeks I've been to concerts by Altan and Da Dannen that left me walking on air. Now there's a contrast worth discussing.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 May 00 - 11:58 PM

Personally I enjoyed the video of Riverdance when I watched it with my kids. I was disappointed in the choral stuff, I thought it too much the same and therefore too esily predictable. There was excitement and energy in the dancing and that was communicated to the viewers. That energy is what carried Michael Flatley through two more movies of dancing and part of me envies that energy and incredibly focussed drive, but part of me admits the validity of the distractions I have and allow. Michael and I live in very different worlds with very different personal goals and abilities but we like some of the same music and that is where, and probably only where, we intersect.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From:
Date: 20 May 00 - 11:03 PM

In the early 1940's my college educated mother said this to me over and over: "de gustibus, non disputandum est." Meaning, when it comes to taste, there is no ____________________. You can fill in the blank. -- Harold from Hawthorne

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 May 00 - 10:50 PM

Is it sacrilege to suggest that any commercial venture that makes money is, by its own standards, good?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 May 00 - 10:24 PM

Here are my favorite lines of poetry from Riverdance. How about

Out of the dark we came, out of the sea.
Where the long wave broke on the shore.
As the day broke
and the night roled back,
there we stood on the land we would call home.
Out of the dark we came
out of the night
the first of many mornings in this new place.
When the sun rolled back the mist
we role like a strong wave on land.
Now we were the people of this place.
What burns through the mist?
What banishes the dark?
What makes the children straight and great?
The sun is our lord and father.
Bright face at the gate of day.
Comfort of home, cattle and crop.
Lord of the morning, lord of the day.
Lifting our hearts we sing his praise,
dance in his healing rays...

Or,

No life is forever
We found and fought
we loved and died here
Wave after wave the sea of time beats against every shore
Whole generations live now to depart
The land has failed us
the dark soldiers appear against us
In dance and song we gift and mourn our children
They carry us over the ocean
in dance and song.

-The folk process?
-As for memorable airs, try "Lift The Wings" and "Corona" and "Caoineadh Cuchallain".
-I'm not sure, and I don't want to insult your intelligence, Mrb, but Silly Wizard is Scottish.
-I like Thistle & Shamrock, it's WAS the reason I got into folk music. I've listened to every single episode since January 1997. The most played artists? Battlefield Band, Maura O'Connell, Dougie MacLean, Kate Rusby, and William Jackson--hardly commercialized junk in my opinion.
--Also, Turlough O' Carolan isn't technically folk--he was a composed just as Bill Whelan is a composer. We'll see what people think of Bill in 400 years...I wonder if they will look back at his music for Riverdance as folk music, and modern 24th century Irish music total trash. Kinda makes you think. Go easy. Don't be so easily offended...let us enjoy our perverse fun, even though you might not agree. It's no good fighting over it...it won't resolve anything. And BTW the last thing I'll ever be is a folk head...

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From:
Date: 20 May 00 - 09:54 PM

Hey, I thought this mudcat site (I discovered you 4 weeks ago) was a collection of sophisticated folk-heads (like myself?). The responses so far about "Riverdance" disappoint me. I'm not worried that "true" celtic music will get stomped out of existence. The good stuff will always get commercialized, just look at what happened to "The Thistle and Shamrock" show in the last 10 years. The good stuff will always be there, under the surface. My Irish music heroes are Silly Wizard, early Paul Brady, the O'Carolin (sp?) tradition. Have any memorable lines of poetry arisen from Riverdance? Any "airs" that sends you into emotional extasy?

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:31 PM

RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?

Both.

~S~

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:28 PM

"The "Eurovision" birth of "Riverdance" was, after all, a competitive endeavor, and the bit did win the contest."

In a sense that's true - but Riverdance wasn't any kind of entry in the contest, in a formal sense. It was the show that was put on during the break in proceedings while the voting was being carried out. In that context the impact was to outclass everything in the Eurovision contest by several lightyears, and give a hint of what real music and dance could be about. And it did so in front of a few hundred million people. Gobsmacked them I think is the inelegant expression that best fits.

The actual show was an anticlimax, though in all kinds of ways it was still brilliant. What it reminded me of is the kind of show that you get from visiting companies of Russian "folk performers". It bore the same relation to the Irish traditions as Oklahoma does to traditional American music. Great of its kind, and it's a different kind, and not to be sneered at by any means.

Saying unkind things about Michael Flatley - well that's something else again. We'll never manage to say things near as unkind about him as a lot of the people who've worked with him do. It doesn't stop him being brilliant.We're just lucky that most of the people who are brilliant in this kind of music aren't like Michael Flatley.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Racer
Date: 20 May 00 - 06:00 PM

I once heard an Irish comedian say that "Riverdance" was touring the world because they got kicked out of Ireland.

I personally liked the show. Of course, I'd probably like anything involving Jean Butler.

-Racer

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mbo
Date: 20 May 00 - 03:10 PM

I like the show, period, as Jed said! While the dancers and tha pageantry are all nice and good, I prefer just listening to the music. And I do love the added percussion of the tapping. I'm don't really care if they got fancy outfits our jeans and greasy shirts on--it sounds good to me, and that's all that matters. It's the same with Lord of The Dance, which is awesome too, but like I said, I'm more interested in the music. And yes, in LoTD they use many traditional tunes, including Calliope House, Jenny's Chickens, etc. LoTD has some killer music. Overall I don't give a dingo's kidney whether it truly "represents traditional Irish music." That's not a big thing on my checklist--it may for anal-retentives--but not for me. I'm a music lover, and if it sounds bloody good to me, I'm going to like it. I don't care much at all about truthful representations, because most of the stuff you folks sing would be slammed as nonrepresentational by bards and minstrels from 600 years ago. BTW Don Dorcha RULES!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 20 May 00 - 01:21 PM

On the whole thing, I'll pass!!

My favorite example of "Irish Dancing" is in the movie The Field... -THAT'S- how people who are enjoying themselves dance!!! None of this prancing aroudn with a fake smile painted on yer head, with yer arms rigid to yer sides... For another good example, see the video by Lahey (sp?) fot the song... B Minor... Or is it Call To Dance... They all sound the same to me!! LOL!!

I'm pretty sure it's "The Call To Dance" that has the pretty cool video...

{~`

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: paddymac
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:59 PM

The "Eurovision" birth of "Riverdance" was, after all, a competitive endeavor, and the bit did win the contest. At one time or another, most of us mere mortals fall into the trap of criticizing a thing for what it is not, rather than appreciating it for what it is. "Riverdance" (and, collectively, its various off-spring and imitators) is a huge commercial success because of what it is, not what it is not. Anyone who thinks that the show represents the totality of Irish traditional music is simply not sufficiently informed. And anyone who thinks that it represented itself in that light is similarly deficient. It is what it is, and no more. A grand bit of musical theatrics. "Thank you" to any and all who have given of their blood, sweat and tears to make it happen.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: alison
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:34 PM

I remember the first time I saw them perform the actual "riverdance" bit itself on the Eurovision song contest....it was wonderful (or maybe I was homesick sitting here in Oz).. brought tears to the eyes, and a lump to the throat..... Jean Butler was just wonderful...... and Michael Flatley was amazing.....

I have to admit I wasn't fussed on the entire show..... and "Lord of the dance" was a bit too much "I love me, who do you love"... although Flatley was good......

but they did stir up an interest in Irish music and dance all over the world.... and I think that is good....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:32 PM

I agree completely with Mooh. I was hooked on Irish music the very first time I heard it played. The problem today is exposure and many of the impressionable youngsters never get a chance to hear this kind of music.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:12 PM

Having only seen them on TV, I have to say that the way they are depicted in that medium detracts from my ability to enjoy them. I don't like all the switching back and forth between legs-only closeups and shots of the whole stage. Keep the whole stage and maybe P-in-P the closeups, if any. It's the gestalt I like so much, and I really really like it!
Also, I agree with Mooh that it sometimes seems that force has overcome beauty, but I have come to see that force as a different (not light, not lilting) kind of beauty, with its own appeal...

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:56 AM

Arguably not the best representation of traditional music (I know nothing of dance but love those legs), but if it brings folk music to the uninitiated, how bad can it be? Eventually music lovers will seek out other tunes.

My personal complaint is that though the music is played note perfect, it seems, they seem also to have taken much of the swing, lilt, subtlety, and grace out of the tunes and sacrificed them to sheer force. However, again, if this is what it takes to turn people on to traditional music, there has to be a good side.

There is also the concern about how tunes will change when performed for the dancers as opposed to how they're played when performed for listeners, but maybe that's another thread.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 May 00 - 08:52 AM

great show - period!

Subject: Riverdance. Good or bad?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 May 00 - 07:31 AM

There appears to be a lot of different opinions as to whether the whole 'Riverdance' thing was good or not.

What do you think?