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Thought for the Day - May 26
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Subject: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Peter T. Date: 26 May 00 - 07:56 AM "Lord, I don't know what to ask for. You love me more than I love myself, you know more about me than I do: give me what I don't even know to ask for. I am so lost I do not even know what it means to be lost any more. Please God, I am trying to open my heart to you: I don't dare ask for either a cross or a consolation. Everything I ask for is full of me, and empty of you. Do what you think is best, in your love and mercy. Kill me or heal me, darken me or lighten me: whatever is best in your sight. I know that you will not turn your back on someone who comes to you in desperation. I have stopped wanting anything but what you want for me. Teach me to pray. I give myself to you: I will be your prayer if you will have me." -adaptation/translation of a prayer of Father Fenelon (17th century French mystic). |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Ringer Date: 26 May 00 - 08:49 AM Hmmm... while not disagreeing with the sentiment, that's a difficult prayer to pray sincerely |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: TerriM Date: 26 May 00 - 09:11 AM I cannot imagine not wanting anything but suppose it is an enviable condition, nonetheless, there is a quiet air of desperation in this prayer that I find moving. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Midchuck Date: 26 May 00 - 09:39 AM It reminds me of the Merle Haggard line:
"Turn me loose, set me free, Whenever I hear it, I think "Oh, no, anything but that!" (At least if it's winter at the time.) Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Little Neophyte Date: 26 May 00 - 10:14 AM Peter, that guy seems to be beating himself up while he is praying to God. Why not shorten it a bit? How about this............ 'God, I give up, will you please help me?' or how about this on....... 'God, you are smarter than me, what should I do?' For one thing, these prayers are easier to remember and I think God can't hear you too well when you are so busy making all kinds of racket while you are beating yourself up. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Peter T. Date: 26 May 00 - 10:31 AM I have actually toned down the original! That was the way people prayed in the 17th century, before our own enlightened times, when we understand so much more about God and ourselves. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: TerriM Date: 26 May 00 - 10:34 AM Good to hear you say that Peter... now convince me it's true! |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: GutBucketeer Date: 26 May 00 - 12:19 PM Reminds me of a country song. Thank God for Unanswered Prayers. Don't know who does it, but I was listening to the radio on the way home from work last week and it hit a chord. JAB |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 26 May 00 - 12:38 PM Jim, it's Garth Brooks. I love that song immensely. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: katlaughing Date: 26 May 00 - 01:35 PM People had a lot more time to contemplate their plight and to spend in praying to their god back then.(And hairshirts were quite the *thing* **BG**) It sounds a sort of long-winded way to turn oneself over completely to the Will of God, acknowledging that God, alone, knows what will be for one's highest good, even if that means death. Most folks find an utter *giving up* of one's will to God a hard thing to do. I think that is why it seems easier to decide what it is you'd like to have happen, then turn it over to God's will by saying, "I ask for this or something better, for the highest good of all concerned." It is very moving, Peter, but I prefer a more positive way of putting it. It could certainly read well for other religions besides Christianity, too, in some respects. Thanks for the translation and *illumination*. katcontemplating |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: JenEllen Date: 26 May 00 - 01:47 PM Does have that air of desperation, doesn't it? None of the *You* and I are going to figure this out together Lord, but almost pawn-like 'do with me what you will'. I suppose it shows an immense amount of trust, but I can't help also feeling a lack of common sense... ~Elle |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 26 May 00 - 01:55 PM The reminds me of comment reminds me of a bumber sticker - GOD protect me from your followers! and of the line in an old M*A*S*H episode with the soldier who was Jesus, and Radar asks if it's true that sometimes God answers all prayers, and "Jesus" says Yes... but sometime the answer's no |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Mbo Date: 26 May 00 - 02:28 PM Ok ok, lay off, people... --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: katlaughing Date: 26 May 00 - 02:35 PM Lay off what, embow? Just a great discussion going on here, imo. Jen, it begs the question of the difference between complete trust in god, a rarity in my opinion, and a denial of responsibility for self...I know some people like that. They think they are letting god have her/his way with them, but really what they are doing is playing a manipulative game of "well, this is my plight because god has willed it!" Which, imo, just means they are trying to abdicate responsibility for their own lousy decisions in which they *keep control* by exerting their OWN will, even passively. It's all about whether one can really *give it up* and trust totally in one's god or not, isn't it? Mrr, excellent quote. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 May 00 - 03:06 PM "People had a lot more time to contemplate their plight and to spend in praying to their god back then."
No, we've got far more time on our hands. We live longer, we've got all kinds of things that mean we can do things quicker. So we choose to spend our time differently, and there are all kinds of things we can do? Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's a bad thing. But to say that we have less time to spend? It just doesn't stand up. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: katlaughing Date: 26 May 00 - 03:22 PM Maybe I should had been a little clearer. What I really meant was they had less distractions or leisurely activities, i.e. tv, radio, internet, books (depending on station in life, as well as candles, lamp oil, etc.), and such. Yes, they had less time for leisure than we do, although at the rate we're going, the general populace may not be feeling that way. I think a lot these days have filled up their daily life so much they are stressed out and headed for trouble. Hope that helps to clarify what I meant. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: JenEllen Date: 26 May 00 - 04:01 PM Exactly kat. I don't think there can be complete trust with out a certain amount of predictability. You don't often find that in deities :) And I agree about the responsibility for self. I am not religious, not because I am not a nice person (there are times) but mostly because I don't like being told what to do. My lack of organized relgious influence does not negate my innate spirituality in any way. We've laughed about it before, but I really do believe the universe smiles on me. Sure, bad things happen, but nothing that couldn't have been worse. I basically go along, trying to do what I think is right, not hurt anyone(including myself), and be thankful to be here. If there is something that doesn't suit me, I don't rely on someone else to fix it. All I was saying was that to me, Father Fenelon's devotion seems a bit unfounded. Fix everything to your satisfaction, Lord, and I'll grovel all the same. ACK, kat. It brings a MULTITUDE of questions, none of which I feel like answering. Eurocentric history, patriarchal oppressionism, and a monk whispering sweet nothings into the ear of God. Two-fisted thought for the day there, Peter.... ~JenEllen
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: katlaughing Date: 26 May 00 - 04:10 PM gawddessluvyajen! |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: JenEllen Date: 26 May 00 - 04:16 PM Also, small aside here.... I say all those things, knowing full well, if you substitute 'Lance' for 'Lord', and have it penned by Barbara Cartland instead of Fr. Fenelon, it would have sold MILLIONS!!!! Feet on the ground and head in the clouds, JenEllen |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: katlaughing Date: 26 May 00 - 04:25 PM LOL! Wanna ghost write some of her channeled stuff with me Jen? |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Mbo Date: 26 May 00 - 04:38 PM Yeah yeah, we're all a bunch of stupid morons. Let's go dance in a circle around a tree and everything will be alright. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Little Neophyte Date: 26 May 00 - 04:45 PM I have been enjoying your discussion kat and Jen. Reading my posting again, I noticed I forgot one itsy, bitsy detail. When you say those short prayers I posted, I hope you realize that you would be talking to yourSelf. They go kind of like this..... Self, I give up, would you please help me? or Self, you are smarter than me, what should I do? How I see it is that you will find God if you look in the mirror. Somewhere he/she is in there. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: ceitagh Date: 26 May 00 - 05:01 PM I think Fr. Fenelon's prayer is beautiful. Not degrading or disempowering at all. I think there is a tendency to think, while witnessing a believer that "i know they say they believe that, but surely they don't *really* think that..." You know? We're very respectful of people's beliefs as long as they don't seem to affect their lives 'too much' and don't intrude on our lives or comfort. I don't know whether leisure time or distractions have anything to do with the way people pray now as compared to how they used to pray....i know that i know people who pray like Fr. Fenelon, very beautifully and elequently, and its hard not to respect someone who has that integrity. I'm attending the ordination of one such 'pray-er' in two weeks time. To say "Your will is greater than mine, you know better than I do what is right for me" does not indicate low self-worth or unwillingness to take responsibility...it's the logical extension of the belief in God's omnipotence. Most believers claim a belief in God's omnipotence....how many of us have the integrity to make the act of faith that naturally follows this belief? If God is real, and omnipotent, and personal, then Fr. Fenelon's prayer is the most appropriate reaction possible. Thanks for a lovely Thought of the Day, Peter. Pax, Kate |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 00 - 05:07 PM I am noticing that I am responding to this on several levels and so this is rather a long posting. First, I don't think anyone here has reflected what it actually is like to pray a prayer like that, and I don't think this is a place where that can be discussed openly. Also, I find this discussion a little like using a fogged up telescope with today's measuring points etched into it, to look into the heart and soul of a man of another time, culture, and orientation that not only measures things differently, but measures different things. I have been exploring the mystic side of my own Christianity, and I am finding that whenever I try to discuss it, Christian mysticism is far removed from the main of most people's knowledge, experience, and stereotypes... and I think that a quote like this serves as a pretty poor starting point for getting anything out of the subject. There is still no substitute for talking to people you can know, in a present time relationship, about things as deep as this. In fact this sort of approach to it makes me less willing than I would have been otherwise, to participate in a discussion of my own experience. And that is a sad thing, because the sharing of what we ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE is the fastest way to find the common ground in Truth and to exchange anything of real value. However I will offer this for your consideration, and it is an example of trying to use the right telescopes. Call up in your mind the concepts you carry about God, obedience, submission, giving in. That is to say, use the telescope that comes to hand first. Now here is another one to try using. In the original languages, the concepts of obedience and submission, of subordination, are expressed in different terms than we understand today from these buzzwords. What we translate as these words can mean several quite different things. (And the KJV threw them around without even consistently matching up which ones to use in which circumstances.) The loveliest image is one of yieldedness, of giving way graciously as one would before a narrow open door, so that two may pass through it in turn. Picture a courtly bow (or curtsey) of manners and kindness, a gesture that might have been used in a later century of sweeping off a plumed courtier's hat, yielding one's right of first passage in free will, before someone valued highly. I'll tell you something else, dear friends, for friends ye be. If I had the nerve to dig up a quote from someone else's religious tradition, that I did not understand, and held it up for a discussion such as this, I would request that you bring me up very short. If you want to understand anything about Christianity, of course the quickest way is to know Jesus in prayer; He is there to talk with anytime, and he is a lot less bristly than you or I. Or, if you prefer flesh and blood discussions, how about getting to know someone actively and positively practicing the Christian faith, in a mutually open and respectful dialog, and asking them what they actually experience? What we believe comes after what we experience. What we live is what we can really know, yes? And, finally, how about wondering, did this French mystic experience something important that this prayer commemorates but does not describe? I am far more interested in contemplating what happened AFTER the prayer, than in what happened before it to make it a necessary and effective prayer. And Peter, if you think about it again, do you still think toning it down was a good idea? Would any of us know what he meant better than he did? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 00 - 05:09 PM Ceit, We posted at the same time, so I had not seen your message. As usual, you are seeing quite clearly and I salute you for your deeply loving and articulate response. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Mbo Date: 26 May 00 - 05:14 PM Thanks to the both of you! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: keltcgrasshoppper Date: 26 May 00 - 05:22 PM Praise; Thanks, all that is necessary now is Amen... Thanks all for the discussion... KGH |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Peter T. Date: 26 May 00 - 05:30 PM Well, reluctantly to respond -- I enjoy the discussion and have no idea how helpful or harmful this kind of submissive language/metaphor is for individuals in all kinds of societies, sometimes it is disempowering, sometimes the opposite -- I have lots of other examples of prayers that use throwing oneself on the mercy of God, or plunging oneself into the omnipotence of God, which are at least as strong as this one -- there are many Islamic prayers like this (some would say it is the spiritual essence of Islam); and even my own Buddhist tradition has a Pure Land variety which essentially says that it is only when we give up trying to do things using our selves that we actually give up our "selves" (small "s"). I don't know whether Praise's comments about bringing up other religious traditions are meant to be critical of me. I bring these prayers here because they are provocative not proselytizing, are reflections of common religious experience (if in different vocabularies) and raise questions about our current obsessions which always seem natural and permanent. I also try and find beautiful ones or hard ones or ones I don't understand. Like kat, I am also extremely careful not to be disrespectful in what I choose -- what happens after that is out of my hands. But I have not found Mudcatters (with one or two miserable exceptions) to be crummy about it. If they started being crummy about it again, I would stop. I used to post a lot more prayers and religious sayings, but it clearly irritated a number of people, so they are now fewer and farther between. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 00 - 05:49 PM No, Peter, I am not being critical, I am responding honestly with the thoughts that came up in response to your thoughts and the others posted here. I count you a good friend I don't know well, who I would like to know, and I seek more effective means and outcomes of communication, in general. I am concerned though that when people hold up each others' belief systems instead of thier own, things happen which might have happened differently and better if held up by people practicing, themselves, what is held up. What I found most unfortunate as an outcome in this TotD was that people did not seem to tend to spontaneously share their own parallel for what was offered up, as so often happens with your wonderful starting points. Thus my sadness that people had not simply shared or sought each others' direct experiences, and had commented instead on what someone else might or might not have experienced. My comment that I had not felt that I wanted to do that, as I usually do with what you give as an opening, was meant to point toward that as an area of possible thought for you-- because I think I can glimpse the sincerity and genuine desire for sharing perspectives that characterize your stewardship over the TotD. It was the postings that this elicited that left me feeling weird about saying what I think and feel and experience, not your first posting. Of course if I had just posted without reading the whole thread, or if I were a perfect Christian by now, I would have simply boldly posted a quote that is dear to me. And I will post it, next week, when I can copy it off the file it's on at work. It ain't toned down, either-- it's quite kicked up! And if it weren't so well know, I would probably kick it up even more! I do when I pray it myself! It is the prayer of Saint Bonaventure. Now, one of you 'Catters I correspond with regularly on spiritual matters has it in your files-- cuz I sent it once. If this rings a bell, dear friend, go ahead and post it for me! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 00 - 06:23 PM Here ya go, till I can post ole Boney's prayer-- For what I experience in prayer, sometimes, go see: http://www.geocities.com/doireanne/rolldowntoit.html Sorry no clicky, my clicky template is on the other 'puter. Do go see it tho, it is in the Mudcat Songbook. You may be surprised! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 May 00 - 06:55 PM
St Ignatius says it more simply, (as he tended to do - for example )
And here's Charles de Foucauld's way of saying it
People shouldn't get too hung up on the words and the pattern of arranging them in different times and places. It's a bit like variants on a song, but with the same song lying beneath them.
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 May 00 - 06:57 PM I think this may be the one you mentioned, Praise
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: JenEllen Date: 26 May 00 - 07:27 PM Wow. Where to begin... Thought for the Day, taken as is. I read it, give a little hmmm...and my own thoughts come. Simple as that. Upon reading the words of Fr. Fenelon, my first thoughts were of incredulousness. That stemming not from the way HE was, but the way I AM. 21st century woman who has had to fight tooth and nail for everything in her life. There has been no trust given completely, no compassion taken lightly, and no one else deciding where this woman should go. If MY beliefs have offended anyone, truly sorry, but they are mine hard fought for. Just as Fr. Fenelon's were to himself Im sure. Mbo, big sis talkin' here... a teensy bit of maturity would do you well. As far as I can tell, no one was calling names but yourself. I have never doubted what your faith has given you, or your relationship with your God. It is what kind and caring humans do, regardless of gender, political affiliation, or religion. Dance around a tree only if it makes you happy, and please don't call yourself or anyone else a moron. We all deserve the same respect, including our gods. Bonnie, my dear, you sure hit the spot! Self, and lack of it can be a powerful thing. We should all be able to look in the mirror and see just what every bit of genetic material before us has evolved into. Behind every one of our eyes is the lifetimes of those that went before us. Every race, and every god. Kate, I don't doubt the Father's integrity at all. Just celebrating in all of our differences. The ordination of your friend should be a glorious occasion. Love and peace to all who attend. I agree with you, Praise, that this is a discussion better suited to a kitchen table, but we've got it here now. I don't think the origional discussion was meant for anyone but the Father and his Lord, none of us can *really* know, but I for one delight in the open discussion of *what it means to YOU*. Toned down or no, it's just a thought, and I believe that was Peter's origional intention. We all deal with our spiritual natures and our personal relationships on very different but equally intimate levels. There is good and bad to all of it, but if someone offered you assistance out of a kind heart and a good nature, would it really matter that they weren't one of *you*? Take care of your hearts, and thank you so much for frank and honest discussion, JenEllen
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 00 - 08:20 PM This has become quite a discussion now, eh? KEVIN!!!!! Yes!!!!!! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: Little Neophyte Date: 26 May 00 - 09:01 PM Okay, here is me spontaneously sharing my own parallel. Bonnie staring into the mirror with her cue cards..... "Yo, self, not you, I am talking to Self, I give up, would you please help me?" or how about this...... "Hey self, not you, I am talking to Self, you are smarter than self. Self would you please tell self what to do?" And to seal off my prayer, I do the special hand signal and say 'May the Force be with me' BB |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 00 - 09:05 PM Sign I saw: I am lost. I have gone to look for myself. If I come back before I return, please ask me to wait. Some days are like that, too! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: GUEST Date: 26 May 00 - 10:29 PM Banjo Bonnie, you've got email. Changed your name, eh, girl? Tryin' to keep us guessin' ain't cha? Thus spake Fortunato
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Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - May 26 From: catspaw49 Date: 26 May 00 - 10:32 PM Well this has made for a fascinating read. I suppose that my original take on the prayer was eventually brought out by Peter when he stated that this type of thing can be found in all religions, which indeed it can. Religion demands faith. In one form or another, faith is a basic tenet of all religious beliefs and while I like the thoughts, ethics, and morals found in many religions worldwide, I cannot buy into faith. I have none, and it ceased to trouble me many years ago. It is impossible for me to accept belief in that which defies proof. But its quite true too that some things are as yet unproven and theoretical in nature. Some things we just "have to accept." I guess THAT bothers me a lot; enough not to voluntarily take on anything that adds to the load and is not needed to travel on in this life. Someone once asked me if I was bothered by not "knowing." Like Gordon Liddy and the candle, the trick is not minding. Spaw |
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