Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?

Subject: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 08:35 AM

Last night I was talking with a friend about the mix of amateur and professional musicians at a festival. He said that he had heard rumours at a particular festival that professional musicians didn't like to see amateur musicians on the stage at a festival as it represented a spot that was not filled by a professional. He is an amateur (or a real folkie?) I guess as he hasn't quit his day job. I was surprised by this view and now I want more information from people who have been involved with festivals, organizing and/or playing at a professional or amateur level. What do Mudcatter's think and what have they heard and experienced on this?

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 09:33 AM

Yes it happens. There is a professional group who complains that my amateur band gets jobs in my area that they would like. My band has been about for 30 years and we fill a niche, an affordable one, that these much higher priced pros don't fill. But by and large, we are acceptted where ever we go.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Gary T
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 09:36 AM

I don't have any particular knowledge in this area, but I have to wonder exactly what are the definitions of "amateur" and "professional" in this case? Having or not having a "day job" sounds like an easy place to start, but one can quickly get into aspects such as is the day job music related?, is it a part-time job, and if so how many days or hours a week? (does 20 hrs./wk. count? how about 5? where's the "line" drawn?), what about part-time or full-time volunteer work (takes time but doesn't contribute to income)?, etc. Then there's the question, at what point does one move from amateur to pro status? First paying gig? Paying gig with no day job? Intent to make most or all of living playing music? And how about (and what exactly is) a "semi-pro"?

This is a field where I see more of a continuum from absolute amateur to absolute pro, with many various shadings and branchings of these labels, rather than a clear-cut, black & white, one or the other distinction.

The rumored comments make the pros involved appear chauvinistic and ungenerous, in my view.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:22 AM

Sophocleese,

Hot Topic! Thanks! Please forgive the stream of unconsciousness writing style, I just shovelled 5 yards of topsoil, in the real folk tradition.

Yes, I've heard this before, but not at my "home" festival. I'd challenge anyone who expressed this here too.

I've been a pro, inasmuch as I'm paid and make alot of my income from (various aspects of) music. I've been an amateur, inasmuch as I was amateur before I became "pro" (whatever the hell that is), and sometimes still play the weaker time slots at festivals as if I'm amateur. And, I'm amateur as I've kept a day job, but for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with ability or status and everthing to do with family obligation, security, and my own inclination not to take too many risks. (If that's not "folk" attitude, please educate me...) I also help organize a festival which is slowly making a name for itself. This festival promotes pro's in a big way. It also promotes amateurs through a "college" and by featuring local groups who, btw, bring in alot of audience and has been a real bridge between our community and the world, and a catalyst for interest in music we present to the otherwise unsuspecting. Many people originally came to this festival only to support local groups and the community but have since taken a genuine interest in the music, and come for that now. That's not to say that there mightn't have been a couple of near embarassments on stage, but any "pro" will tell you that they've "been there, done that", and shouldn't be critical of amateur attempts, only supportive.

I believe the folk tradition demands by definition that it embrace the up and coming, by teaching, mentoring, and opening doors to opportunity, including folk festivals.

Also, there are some self-proclaimed "pro's" who are more amateur than who they consider amateur, and vise versa.

The elitist attitude that performance opportunities are being taken from professionals is ridiculous. Likewise, the good folks who drop their hard earned cash at the gate aren't being cheated. Many, perhaps most, amateur time slots are created AFTER the well of recompense has run dry, at least in the fiscally responsible operated venues, and it would otherwise be impossible to present more acts. One wonders if there'd be festivals if amateur talent wasn't promoted, having seen many amateurs become pro (or comparable) because of festivals. This is a self-sustaining phenomenon. Festivals aren't about the ego gratification of pro's, they're about the sharing of tradition, culture, art, music, like a great communal gathering of children at Father's knee, listening to the tales of life.

Somebody kick the soapbox out from under me. Sorry, I'm sounding more opinionated than usual. I'd love to hear more discussion on this. Thanks Sophocleese, for another thought provoker.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:25 AM

I have not had much experience in this but I can only remember upsetting a professional band once. This was during a local festival and due to an error in booking, a few of us who were admittedly being paid beer money, ended up in the same venue as the other band and we agreed to do 2 3/4 hr sets each. They were happy at first but the trouble was that on the night, our little line up of fiddle, banjo, guitar and possibly bodhran (can't remember exactly - tend to peice a band together depending on who is available) went down far better than the paid band and you could see them getting more and more annoyed. The worst part was they were down for the finishing off set and after the finished, there were demands for more - more of us!!!

I don't know why it should have worked out that way and we are not that good (or we would be proffessional - at least I would go that way if good enough)but that was the way that night went and I doubt that band would ever welcome an amature folk band again.

Jon

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 10:31 AM

What's funny is that Amateur, in French, means lover of, aficionado, being into something - so a French amateur of something usually outdoes the Anglophone amateur!

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Kernow John
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 04:44 PM

I currently play in a band with 8 other folks and we get paid for playing, we have an offshoot of this group (3 of us) and we get paid a bit less for playing. On odd nights just 'cos I love the music I play in a session in a pub and if the customers stay the landlord will supply a jug or two of ale. I also have a part time day job. Am I pro semi-pro or amatuer? I don't know but a full time pro told me the other day that people like me are killing the folk scene because I sometimes play for nothing!
My own feeling is that If you can make it pay do so if you can't but still love to play and can find a session, join in. The more people hear the music the more they'll come to listen paying or otherwise.
Regards Baz

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: paddymac
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 05:03 PM

I've been involved in various kinds of festivals over the years and have some experience "booking" name acts and "scheduling" local "play-for-fun" groups. These days, the "name acts" (not necessarily 'pro' in the sense of not doing anything else) tend to be groups with a CD that somebody on the committee happens to like. Sometimes, those groups do draw a crowd, but far more often, it is the "local" groups who have the more faithful fans who come pouring through the gates. The pro/am distinction is more about the business side of things than about music. "Celtic Rock" is the hot new thing at the moment, but that audience is small when compared to the folks who turn out to see their favorite "local" group.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Brendy
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 05:13 PM

I don't believe this!!!

Forgive me, folks, but even the difference being made between people who make their 'living' out of music, like me, for instance, and people who don't, raises the hackles on the back of my neck.

Music is music, and musicians, whether they depend on it to survive or not, are entitled to play it anywhere they get booked. And IMO, the 'musician' who objects to this, is not a musician, and I would castigate him from the highest mountain.
How egotistic can one get??

B.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 05:50 PM

Well, now, we get paid to play, albeit only a few times a year at this point, plus we have a cassette coming out soon. So I consider us professional, mainly because I have a professional attitude about what we do. I practice hard and return calls on time. But this is not our only means of support at present, so I guess some would consider us amateur.

I agree that anyone can play wherever they get hired and anyone who doesn't like that can go suck a lemon.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Brendy
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 05:58 PM

That's what I consider 'Professionalism' to be, Kim.
The attitude.

B.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 Jun 00 - 06:49 PM

Sad to say there always seems to be a bit of in fighting in this field and stuff done behind the scene that leaves you wondering

.

One of the bands that my brother plays with, was invited to play in a local festival (actually one of a number) and was told by the organizers they would be paid. When the smoke cleared, the out of town "name bands" were paid, but his band was not.

Eventually, after some teeth pulling, they did get their money, but as a possible result, they have not been on the lineup of any other local festival in the last two years.

They wondered perhaps because they play regular sessions in one of the local pubs and have a CD out, organizers felt they already had enough exposure or if demanding promised money, had made them somehow social parihas on the folk scene, despite their local loyal following.

Again this year, there is going to be a large Rootsfest here (information on another thread) and the group was promised a slot, but when the final decision was made, they were not included. However, another group he plays with, was selected and that group has never played any major festival or events before.

I think the first group he's in, would be considered semi-professional, as one or two of the members make their sole living as musicians, but I don't think they know where they fit in, in the grand scheme of things.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jun 00 - 02:13 PM

The TITANIC was built by professionals
The Ark was build by amatures....

Any questions??

LOL!!!!!!

{~`

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Gary T
Date: 02 Jun 00 - 03:21 PM

Ah, but Clinton, who DESIGNED them? (G)

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 02 Jun 00 - 05:18 PM

Men... in both cases...

{~`

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Jun 00 - 05:21 PM

Too damn lazy to learn how to swim...

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Jun 00 - 05:40 PM

And both are no longer with us, which makes them mortal.

B.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Gary T
Date: 03 Jun 00 - 12:58 AM

Either I'm missing the point (though not the humor) of the last three posts, or my point was missed--Noah's ark was designed by God, complete with measurements.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Brendy
Date: 03 Jun 00 - 01:09 AM

Nice one *BG*

B.

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 03 Jun 00 - 11:31 AM

Gary T.. That was my point.. botht eh ark and the Titanic were designed by MEN, despite mythology to the contrary...

At least in my book they were....

But this thread is not a debate about higher powers that may or may not be... So let's not go there k!

{~`

Subject: RE: Pro. vs. Am. does this happen?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Jun 00 - 12:04 PM

Tell you on thing though Clinton, I reckon only God could have fitted 2 of every species of animal in existance into the ark ;-)

Seriously, you started the thread drift, so why don't you get us back on topic.? Like what is your opinion on the subject - I've yet to see it.

Jon