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BS: There's no word for it...
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Subject: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jun 00 - 01:26 PM If there's no word for something, can you think about it at all?
I don't mean physical objects so much, like guitars and cooking pots. I mean rather stuff like states of mind and emotions, and ideas.
Someone once told me that, so far as they had been able to find out, there's no word in any other language which means the same as "wistful" in English. And that kind of thing applies to all kinds of words in all languages, and it's one way in which every language encompasses a diffeent way of seeing the wolrds, which is one big reason why it matters when a language dies.
Anyway, the immediate reason I was thinking about this is, I was trying to think of a word which summed up the quality lurking somewhere in the middle of the word-cluster brash/vulgar/course, a word which would stand for this, but without being value-loaded - and another word for the opposite of this, also non-value-loaded. Refined doesn't do it, it's got all kinds of associations that get in the way.
I think those are words it would help if we had them. When we need a word, what normally happens is that an existng word is taken up and has its meaning twisted into shape,and the old meaning gets lost (and that can cause quite a lot of hertache, as with the word "gay", where it has left a significant gap in the language behind it).
And the other thing is that someone finds that there's a word in some other language that fits, and it is imported.
So has anybody got any suggestions for where we could find the missing words? Or other examples of missing words that we really need? |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Jim the Bart Date: 02 Jun 00 - 02:31 PM The connection between words is really interesting. Somewhere I read someone's musings about whether gravity existed before Newton attached a name to it. I think we definitely have ideas without words; pictures, after all are worth about a 1,000, last thing I heard, and I find a lot of my thoughts really clear as a movie and horribly muddy put into words. Words can make it a lot easier to share ideas with others, fo sure. I like words that are made up of pieces of other words - to capture bits of the idea of each. Some of my bandmates and I coined a great one, "floungers", for people who waste years of their live floundering around in bars (lounges). When one of us walked into a place where the professional-barfly could comfortably hang out, all we had to do was say "the place was crawling with floungers" and the others knew exactly the kind of joint in question. In short, if you need a word MAKE IT UP! Add to the language. Of course, you might have to create a "McGrath to English Dictionary", too. . . PAX |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 02 Jun 00 - 03:06 PM I remember in The Mote In God's Eye, which has the coolest aliens in all of SciFidom, there was an individual alien trying to communicate something to some humans but lacking the vocabulary, he turned to his language experts and said I need a human word! because he needed to explain a concept that he knew would have a word in the human languages, just from knowing humans, but didn't have one in Motie. As a psycholinguist I found that fascinating. As a bilingual who grew up with speakers of both of my languages, I also find it difficult to speak in ONLY English or ONLY French because my mind kind of forges on ahead without worrying about where the vocabulary is going to come from. So I paint myself into corners all the time, having to start sentences completely over because the construction I was using led me to an impasse where the word I need next isn't available in the language I'm using, and the listener wouldn't understand me if I just substituted the other language. Needless to say, anyone who hangs out with me for any length of time tends to pick up a lot of French phrases and words, because I use them figuring anyone who's going to be in contact with me might as well get used to them. I can't make the efforts to stay monolingual in social situations or it eliminate relaxing. Anyone who'd like real scientific info on this can contact me, I did my dissertation on how bilinguals function in monolingual situations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,me Date: 02 Jun 00 - 04:06 PM gehmugliekeit is wistful (too) in german |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jun 00 - 04:17 PM Blimey! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: paddymac Date: 02 Jun 00 - 04:53 PM Not sure they exactly fit kevin's suggested need, but I'm prone to use words like "earthy" and "genteel" it those particular sets or sequences. There must be a convergence in the force (my apologies to Master Yoda), for several of us were having a discussion on this general topic this morning - the ways in which language both shapes and reflects the world view of a culture. In particular, the discussion reached toward such differences and their importance in deciphering iconography as known from the archaeological record. Obtuse stuff, or so it might seem when first considered, but actually quite important to our ability to understand and learn from other cultures. We got off into a discussion of taxonomy (because stylized animal forms are important iconographic markers) and came to a working consensus that the classification of animals based on the Linnean model is a taxomony of differences, while the Muskogee Creek system is a taxonomy of commonalities. In the first case, the focus is on how things are different, while in the later it is on how they are alike. This discussion will no doubt continue for some time, and absolute answers will be few and far between. Its value, however, lies not in the solution of an insoluble/unsolvable problem, but in its discussion and exploration and the more tolerant understanding that will hopefully emerge. Heavy stuff for a Friday afternoon. Perhaps a cool pint will stimulate forther consideration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jun 00 - 05:23 PM Earthy and genteel fit into the word clusters involved - but...
The kind of thing I'm thinking about is the difference between Jerry Springer and Garrison Keeler. I wouldn't call Jerry Springer earthy, and I certainly wouldn't call Garrison Keeler genteel. (I'm using American examples here, because we get to see them, and Americans are less likely to see the examples I could use from English broadcasting.) Muskogee? Isn't that where that Okie came from who had a thing about leather boots and the college dean...?
I've just remembered that some of the ideas I've been thinking about were brought together in George Orwell's 1984, where the idea is that the main value of Newspeak is that it can get rid of certain words, and that means you can get rid of the disruptive concepts they express, because without the words it becomes impossible to think about them.
I'm just turning this about - new words could help us think about concepts that at present are out of our grasp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Jeri Date: 02 Jun 00 - 09:00 PM Boorish vs polite? I don't know, you'll probably find value judgements in anything that's slightly accurate, because the words you posted indicate judgement. How do you describe a value-loaded set of words without using one? (Or maybe I'm just missing the whole point.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jun 00 - 09:23 PM Well take words referring to the sizre of a person, since that's been a thony topic on a couple of treads recently.
There are plenty words that inducate disdain, like gross and flabby, and a few words that indicate approval, like well-built and chubby, and for neutral I'd say fat, but that's moved over into the disdain camp in the eyes of many people. (And in some cultures I imagine the balance would be the other way, and there'd be lots of pro-words, and only a smattering of anti-words).
And you could make the same kind of analysis of the type of cultural differences I'm referring to. When two people look at, say the Jerry Springer show, and one likes it and the other loathes it, it's probably the same quality in it that they are recognising, but they put a different value on it. That'll be reflected in the language they use. What is missing it seems to me is a neutral term which they can both use.
It's a bit as though when we were talking about a particular type of food we had to choose between "that yucky stuff" and "that delicious stuff", instead of calling it "cheese", whether we liked it or hated it. It'd be hard discussing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie Date: 02 Jun 00 - 10:33 PM Words and concepts that are not value driven are also among the missing. I remember that when I learned English I couldn't believe there was no word in English for dying of thirst, although there was for lack of food. I even tried saying 'for thirsted'. (Come on, I was just a kid!) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Date: 02 Jun 00 - 10:35 PM Here's another "convergence in the force". I was talking to some of my friends this morning and they were discussing a class they wanted to go to about the influence of Latin words on the English language which made me think of a book I have, which I relly love, called History in English Words by Arthur Owen (something) and the name which always springs to my mind when I try to think of his surname is "barfly" which was a lso a word mentioned in this thread. (It's Barfield, I just looked it up). You can read a little about him here: http://www.mtsu.edu/~dlavery/hooperobit.htm anyway, back to the point, the books is about what paddymac referred to - the relationship between language and culture, society etc. Barfield looks at the earliest words in the British Isles, then does a chapter on each new language introduced by invaders and settlers and the reflection of the way of life and way of thinking of each. E.g. Anglo-Saxon words still in use in modern English are axe, house, earth etc - words relating to a farming or subsistence life. Latin words relate to the organisational structure of a more complex society - republic, etc, the French words relate to the courtly life e.g. chivalry, etc. All very interesting stuff. By the way, McGrath-o-H, the Welsh word "hiraeth" is hard to describe - I don't speak Welsh but I have been told about this word, and one of its meanings is "longing" - the Welsh dictionary I have says "longing, nostalgia, grief, homesickness", so it's similar to wistful. Helen |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) Date: 03 Jun 00 - 08:55 AM Oh, synchronicity. I have a missing word problem. It's in the cluster "hang-up, have a down on, bias against, unresolved childhood problem". As in "Why do English Ministers of Education always seem to have a __________ about teachers?" They always seem to have had a bad experience during their education, without having had a teacher who really enthused them and counteracted it. There seems to be a deep-seated need to make even giving things difficult and painful for the recipient. Any English teachers will know about the way we have to apply for new money, and it is the most depressing activity I have ever taken part in, being separated from others, not combined as in Ofsted. I exclude the Scots, whose government justs wants to give the money in return for less than a normal working day. And I know there is a word for this baggage they are lugging around with them, but I just cannot recall it. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jun 00 - 03:24 PM "Prejudice against" - or maybe (slightly less overtly antagonistic) "preconception about" might fit the bill?
But what they are really clever at is taking a phrase that is descriptive and objective, and turning it into a stick to beat teachers (and children) with - "child-centred".
What GUEST,Mrr was saying about bilinguilism struck me as interesting. I'd like to hear examples of words which people taking up English as a second language find are suddenly missing when they need them. (Like Ebbie finding there's no standard word meaning "water starving") |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt Date: 03 Jun 00 - 04:46 PM english word for dying of thirst -parched??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Amergin Date: 03 Jun 00 - 05:03 PM I always thought dehydration meant "water starving". |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Date: 03 Jun 00 - 05:31 PM There is no French equivalent of "eavesdrop" - you have to explain it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jun 00 - 05:38 PM And there's "trifle" in the culinary sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST Date: 03 Jun 00 - 08:22 PM Jerry Springer: trash magnet. Garrison Keillor: bland ice-cream. Henry Miller's stated goal as a writer was to be able to express any thought completely and clearly. A perusal of his body of work, perhaps excluding Crazy Cock, indicates he succeeded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Date: 03 Jun 00 - 09:16 PM In the discussion with my friends yesterday morning one of them said something is her "forte" (stength/strong point) and then she said, what is the opposite of that. Is there a word, maybe also from Italian which is used to represent weak point? Also parched and dehydrated don't mean *dying* of thirst, they just mean thirsty, so there probably isn't an equivalent of starving (implying, dying of hunger)in English. Ebbie, what is your original language and what is the word in that language for dying of thirst? Helen |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul Date: 03 Jun 00 - 09:36 PM I don't speak Italian, but I checked this out on Babel Fish. It translates "forte" to "strongly." It translates "weakly" to "debolmente" and "weakness" to "debolezza." Also, it translates "fortezza" to "fortress" "fortemente" to "strongly" and "debole" to "weak person." So, it appears that "debolezza" is the noun in question. Perhaps (probably) we have an Italian-speaking Mudcatter who can give a more definitive answer. PA |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 03 Jun 00 - 10:31 PM me and helen (sounds good) - I don't know welsh but my native tongue is german and from helen's description I think there is a word for 'hiraeth' in that language: 'Sehnsucht'. But this has very few to do with 'Gemuetlichkeit'. The latter describes a situation or a state of mind where one feels calm, at home, warm, among friends, all bad things being kind of outside. The word contains satisfaction. 'Sehnsucht' is a state of mind (not a situation) where one doesn't feel satisfied at all although his overall situation is quite ok. That means, you won't feel 'Sehnsucht' (hiraeth?) e.g. when bullets are whistling by your head. To do so you first need a situation of peace, contemplation, and then you can begin to grieve for things you once knew but are lost or also for things you dont't know but you are longing to experience. 'Sehnsucht' hurts, 'Gemuetlichkeit' caresses, heals. So - can anybody eyplain to me what 'wistful' actually is? (One of my teachers once said "If you make someone explain something you will force him to understand it" - but I really don't know what 'wistful' means.) Joerg |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul Date: 03 Jun 00 - 10:44 PM The entry for wistful in Dictionary.com is pretty good: 1. Full of wishful yearning. Here are entries for pensive and melancholy. PA |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 00 - 03:23 AM Helen, my first language was a dialect of German- the word for dying of thirst would be something like 'verdurstern'- I know I don't have that spelled correctly! The root is durstig. (That looks really odd in English. Besides it needs an umlaut.) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Amos Date: 04 Jun 00 - 10:36 AM Miniisters have a neurosis about teachers? I think Jerry Springer is shallow, trite, supercilious, meretricious, vulgar, brassy, crude and not, as the Spanish say muy educato which means refined through learning. Garrison is simply humane, compassionate, "inclusive". Maybe the contrast between them is functional -- one seeks discord and the other reaches for insight into our common affinities. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 04 Jun 00 - 11:12 AM Thank you, PA - with that I think that 'sehnsuechtig' (the adjective/adverb related to the noun 'Sehnsucht') is a quite good german translation for 'wistful'. But again - 'gemuetlich' (adjective/adverb while 'Gemuetlichkeit' is the noun) is something different. Maybe I should add that it does not include 'pensive'. On the other hand it sometimes includes 'not too fast' and also 'relaxed'. I once was told that this is a concept unknown to english speaking people. Is it, really? Joerg |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo Date: 04 Jun 00 - 12:05 PM Joerg, wasn't "Sehnsucht" the album by Rammstein? --Mbo (descended from a long line of German coalminers)
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Jun 00 - 12:33 PM Trust Mbo to get it right back to music! Reminds me of "connections" (that fascinating Burke series). Also reminds me of a joke that has to be told with a brogue, and which I don't remember any of except for the old Irishman saying Oh, dinna worry about it, I come from a long line of dead men. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jun 00 - 12:46 PM 'Gemuetlichkeit' - a sort of "mellow" feeling? |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo Date: 04 Jun 00 - 12:55 PM I always understood it to be a feeling of easy comfort. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Pene Azul Date: 04 Jun 00 - 01:02 PM Babel Fish translates "gemuetlichkeit" to "cosiness." Is this accurate, Joerg? Here's the Dictionary.com entry for "cosiness" (also spelled "coziness"). From your description, it seems that "mellow" might be more accurate. Maybe mellow cosiness? PA |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Jun 00 - 01:05 PM To anyone wanting to read more on psycholinguistic theories of how/if words shape thought or are shaped thereby, a good place to start is Mrr's First Blicky!. (Let's see if it works!) Or read anything in either anthropology, linguistics, or psychology about various incarnations of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and counterarguments. Whorf was an insurance claims guy who noticed that things labelled inflammable were accidentally set on fire a lot more often than things labelled flammable, and that if you called something that used to contain gasoline empty instead of used people got hurt with the expoding leftover fumes a lot more often. Sapir is the anthropologist who got interested in studying these phenomena. It's pretty cool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Jun 00 - 01:12 PM Well, it looked pretty, but it didn't work. The Url was http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/short/whorf.html/ but when I tried to go there, about 5 mn after finding it in the first place (or however long it took me to look up the blicky syntax in that oh-so-helpful html thread), I got 404'd so pooh. Am abandoning efforts before frustration sets in, I have a long single-parenting nonschool day ahead and can't afford it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Penny S. (still elsewhere!) Date: 04 Jun 00 - 03:15 PM Thanks - I can't believe I'd missed prejudice, but something is still niggling that there is a stronger word. And it certainly is stronger than a neurosis. Have a look at what we have to complete at this site. http://www.dfee.gov.uk/teachingreforms/threshold/assessment/intro.htm sorry, I really don't have time to do a blicky, as I should really be completing number five. Version for Blunkett I inspire trust and confidence by offering people the opportunity to progress to a higher salary scale, and ensuring that it is seen as a real achievement to get it. I build team commitment by uniting teachers in their fear and loathing of the DfEE, and me. I engage and motivate teachers by ordering them to be engaged and motivated, and continuing to criticise. I apply analytical thinking by identifying the mood of teachers and attempting to increase it. I take positive steps to improve the quality of teachers' lives by giving them an extra burdensome task to complete concurrently with reports and national tests. Sorry for spilling all this, but most of those I know who could apply are busy deciding not to. And I am at a loss for words. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jun 00 - 08:13 PM You aren't at a loss for words, Penny. There's a thread on the Mudcat now called "Improper Language" which is full of the right words for that shower.
Anyone who felt happy to be dealing with forms like that would be unfit to be a teacher.
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Date: 04 Jun 00 - 08:59 PM Penny, I've got a boss just like you described. I've stopped trying to tie myself in knots to please him and I'm a whole lot happier now. It's his problem/attitude and not mine and that makes me feel happier & healthier than he is. Helen |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Margaret V Date: 04 Jun 00 - 09:03 PM Penny, perhaps the concept of "having a chip on one's shoulder" is useful regarding the Ministers. When a person has a chip on his or her shoulder, he or she will treat others with defensive hostility, making assumptions about their intentions because of previous experience or having been taught those assumptions. (Wow, that was poorly stated; Henry Miller would not have been impressed! Maybe someone else can have a crack at defining the phrase. . . ) I was also thinking about a colloquial term that is current here in the northeastern part of the U.S. (I don't have a TV so I guess I can't comment on the rest of the U.S.): "issues." "The girl's got ISSUES." When saying a sentence like that, you have to put a big emphasis on the word ISSUES. Issues in this usage doesn't mean "topics," it means stuff you should work out with a therapist! By implication the stuff is at the surface enough so that it's affecting one's behavior in an obvious way (obvious enough that people talking about you are going to say "she's got ISSUES."). Words, words, words. . . Margaret |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 04 Jun 00 - 11:05 PM Mbo (1st) - sorry for having to disappoint you: I'm not that interested in german music and I really don't know who Rammstein is (german musician?). One of many, many reasons for this lack of interest is that words like 'Sehnsucht' were used over and over in too many german music productions of poor quality in the past. When I think of 'Sehnsucht' I am first reminded to melodies stolen from russian folk songs. Things like these are BORING and therefore I have a real prejudice e.g. to albums with titles containing 'Sehnsucht' - I would never buy one. Things like these were also the reason for me to escape first to country and then to folk music (regardless of the language). To be fair I should also say that german music has in some way recovered from trash like this but it is still suffering from the language which is not that suitable for song lyrics. PA - in german there is a word to answer your question: 'Jein' (in the middle between 'Ja' and 'Nein' - yes and no). 'Mellow', 'cosy' and 'snug' cover parts of what is meant by 'gemuetlich' but don't cover others and 'gemuetlich' does not cover all the meanings of these words. I think that I should simply comment what I found following your links: A state of warm comfort - yes. Comfortably sheltered - yes. Closely secured and well built; compact: a snug little sailboat - in some way, it may shelter you comfortably as well as go in an easy, unhurried way (see below). Close-fitting: a snug jacket - no. Nautical. Seaworthy. - Not at all. Offering freedom from financial worry: a snug living - also in some way. Safe; secure: a snug hideout - maybe, but safe does not yet mean comfortable or warm. Soft, sweet, juicy, and full-flavored because of ripeness: a mellow fruit - no. Suggesting softness or sweetness: The mellow air brought in the feel of imminent autumn (Thomas Hardy); Rich and soft in quality: a mellow sound; a mellow wine - yes, but air, sounds and wine can't be 'gemuetlich' - only situations, places, states of mind, ways to do things, people. Having the gentleness, wisdom, or tolerance often characteristic of maturity - yes, also people, but being gentle, wise, tolerant and old does not yet mean that someone is also 'gemuetlich', especially... Relaxed and unhurried; easygoing: a mellow friend; a mellow conversation - that's quite good. Slightly and pleasantly intoxicated. Pleasantly high from a drug, especially from smoking marijuana - no, but this might help to understand what is meant. Moist, rich, soft, and loamy. Used of soil. - No. To mellow out: To become genial and pleasant; relax: 'The cowboy mellowed out when they read him a sweet letter from his wife' (Bobbie Ann Mason). - No. The situation could have become 'gemuetlich' either with his wife or with 'them' but not when 'they' read him a letter from her. Mbo (2nd) - Maybe you see, that 'easy comfort' is not so bad. Friends, thank you for your interest in things I am interested in. To me it seems that everybody who knows more than one language should also know that there is more than one way to map things, experiences, feelings etc into words. But knowing more than one person who do know more than one language and who have the same native tongue as I and being misunderstood by them in a way that would take me too long to describe... I am really enchanted by the way people are sometimes trying to understand each other here. Also very interesting that they actually talk to each other because of their common interest in music.
Joerg |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 04 Jun 00 - 11:11 PM Uhm - I'll forgive you if you read the above two messages only once - sorry. Joerg |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Mbo Date: 04 Jun 00 - 11:26 PM Rammstein is a German heavy metal band, big song in America was "Du Hast"....sorry for bringing it up.... --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 05 Jun 00 - 06:02 AM No need to apologize, Mbo, I'm always interested in what german music is known in America - especially when I don't know it myself. Joerg |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jun 00 - 06:30 AM "the language which is not that suitable for song lyrics" - Oh I don't know. There was a bloke called Schubert who managed a few quite handy songs wasn't there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Grab Date: 05 Jun 00 - 12:58 PM If a word in one language doesn't exist in another, it soon gets borrowed. English has loads of French words and phrases ("camoflage", "joie de vivre", "esprit de corps") which have come in wholesale. Equally, French has acquired "le weekend", "le football" and so on. Or German - anyone say "Gesundheit" when you sneeze? Or experience "Schadenfreude"? Grab. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jun 00 - 01:18 PM We say "Bless you" when people sneeze over here. Sneeze loudly in a shop and some total stranger will probably mutter it. Sometimes "God bless". Do Americans say that too? Or is it always "Gesundheit"?
The thing is, you can only acquire things when you know they are there. I'm aware of all the words we've imported into the language. But I'm longing for the words that we need that are out there waiting to be imported or coined, and we don't know we need them. Most especially the ones for abstract qualities.
And it's not only the meaning. Why, there's probably a word out there that rhymes with "orange"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Petr Date: 05 Jun 00 - 01:54 PM Abilene; the pleasing coolness on the reverse side of a pillow. one interesting word is the Japanese Ma which is often neutral comment on something someone has just spoken without agreeing or disagreeing kind of like the english Indeed. We dont seem to have an equivalent for that. Petr. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Ringer Date: 05 Jun 00 - 02:27 PM Fascinating thread, McGrath. I can't, myself, conceive of a value-free word meaning brash/vulgar/coarse, but that may be, as you suggest, because there's no such English word. However... Whether or not there can be thoughts without the words is interesting, too. When I consider my thoughts (which is difficult, because I can't think and think about my thinking at the same time, but just occasionally I catch the end of a thought train and realise I have been thinking in words) I find I use words. In my work, I spend a lot of time thinking about applying computers to engineering systems. Sometimes if I'm puzzling about a problem at work, away from work - eg listening to music while driving - an answer pops into my head without words. If the problem is large I need to go to words (and pencil & paper, usually) to check its correcness and completeness, but the answer is in my head, and I know it arrived without words. So I'm led to the conclusion that I have two different kinds of thinking. Conscious (words) and unconscious (no words)? Don't know. Also interested to see the post from Helen, above, re Owen Barfield. When I have time, I'll check the link, but wasn't he a big chum of CS Lewis, whom I greatly admire? (Not sure I can mention with approbation an Ulster of Protestant extraction in a thread started by MofH without getting into trouble **BG**) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jun 00 - 04:27 PM "value-free word meaning brash/vulgar/coarse" -well all those words can be used in a positive sense - you might say that something is "brash/vulgar/coarse but..." and go on to indicate that you see it as being a welcome contrast to something else which is too far the other way. Or you might talk about someone as having a "refreshing vugarity" - say the late Oliver Reed.
So there is something there which can be seen as negative or positive - a common factor shared by things that are felt as being fundemntally useless and as fundamentally valuable. But the words we use seem to prejudge this, sop that we need to add "buts" and so forth to clarify the position.
To use a musical anaology, if as if the same notes were being played by two totally different instruments, say a harp and a hurdy-gurdy, but we didn't have the words to refer to the notes as such, but could only talk about the tone of the instrument.
And C.S Lewis was certainly no kind of bigot, or he'd never have been such friends with Tolkien. (In any case Ulster Protestants are a fine set of people. If many of them currently believe that they have more in common with the English than with their fellow Irish, that is really a very minor idiosyncracy.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST,Russ Date: 05 Jun 00 - 04:53 PM Depends on what you mean by "word", "something", and "think about". No kidding. A simple question which has generated a variety of VERY complex answers. A complete (as opposed to flip) answer requires AT LEAST a theory of language ("word"), a metaphysics ("thing"), and a psychology ("think about"). Interestingly different answers provided by everybody from Aristotle to Wittgenstein. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST Date: 05 Jun 00 - 05:38 PM Oh my, what a fine idea. A word for childish, immature, attention seeker. What would that be? Dweebo, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: GUEST Date: 05 Jun 00 - 06:39 PM Why can one be non-chalant but not be chalant? Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... From: Helen Date: 05 Jun 00 - 08:47 PM Why do we call people "uncouth" but rarely call someone "couth"? Bald Eagle, The link about Owen Barfield is just an obituary page but it does explain a little of the friendship/word-sparring partnership between C.S. Lewis & Barfield. It also mentions a link to Tolkien, and I can see the influence, or at least the similar trains of thought between Barfield & Tolkien because of the names for people & places which Tolkien used in Lord of the Rings - there is a definite attempt to attribute an ambience to names which matched the culture or society of the owners of the languages, in my humble opinion. In fact I once requested to do a paper on this in my English degree, but the lecturer blocked the idea, although he saw what I was getting at later when I discussed it in a seminar session. Helen |