Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: kendall Date: 05 Sep 02 - 08:08 AM Rick right. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Sep 02 - 10:36 AM Oops, don't know about that "fast tempo" criterion Richie. One of the pioneer Bluegrass groups (and most famous as well) Reno and Smiley, specialized in Medium and slow tempos. Even their fast tunes were slow next to Monroe or Flatt and Scruggs. By the way, I dug out a couple of my old Reno and Smiley albums for a quick listen....Damn, they were good! Couple of things really caught my ear, Red Smiley's great bass run in D and Don's "non capoed" banjo work. Good stuff. Cheers Rick |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 05 Sep 02 - 11:45 AM When we're in a jam and another banjo player joins us, Frank usually switches to clawhammer. The two styles work well together for alternating or sharing breaks (depending on the players) and it sure sounds like bluegrass! He also always does certain songs clawhammer style, such as Jimmy Martin's "Hold What You Got" and many bluegrass gospel songs such as "Holding Up the Ladder" and "Unclouded Day" and "Take Me In Your Lifeboat." The bluegrass crowd loves this clawhammer stuff, but it draws flies. One jam over the summer had SIX BANJO PLAYERS in it! (I thought I had died and gone to hell). The clawhammer tends to carry more, fills more spaces in the song, or somedamnthing, and every banjo player within a mile has to show up and join in, I guess . . . Anyway, my point is that I wouldn't call it not-bluegrass just because it's clawhammer. It's bluegrass in our family, although you don't see much clawhammer on stage (unless it's us). |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 05 Sep 02 - 09:42 PM Rick- Someone once told me bluegrass was 'hopped up' folk music. Personally, I think there's too much emphasis on playing fast. But you need fast too. So you think speed is not a characteristic of bluegrass. I asked one of my students what bluegrass music was. He said, "I don't what it is but I know it if I hear it." Barbara thinks clawhammer banjo is bluegrass. That would mean we could take the date for the origin of bluegrass back a ways maybe to Boggs, Tanner, Poole, Macon or Carson. Or are they too folk? When did bluegrass start- with Monroe/Scruggs or before? I'm beginning to think coming up with a workable definition and origin might be too difficult. But I still think if could be useful. Anyone want to have a go at it? Richie |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:20 AM Bluegrass Definition: The term bluegrass is a nickname from the "Bluegrass State," Kentucky, that was applied to the music of Bill Monroe and his Blue Grass Boys in the late 1940's. Bluegrass music is an acoustic ensemble music characterized by fast tempos, improvised instrumental solos and close (high) harmony parts. The primary instruments found in bluegrass music are the guitar, the mandolin, the upright bass (or bass), the three-finger style banjo, the dobro and the fiddle. Bluegrass music evolved from music indigenous to the Southern Appalachian Region in the early 1900's including fiddle tunes, folk songs and blues. Here's my post. I think Old-Time music uses a clawhammer or frailing style banjo. Feedback? Richie
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 06 Sep 02 - 01:41 AM Okay, I'll bite. Some of my differences are meaningful and some, such as Bluegrass vs. Blue Grass are purely pedantic.
The term bluegrass, referring to a particular style of American country music, is derived from the band name of its progenitor, Bill Monroe and his Blue Grass Boys. Proud of being a Kentuckian, Monroe named his band for “The Blue Grass State.” Bluegrass music is acoustic ensemble country music characterized by driving rhythms, separate and distinct parts for each instrument and voice, improvised solos and strident high harmony singing with the tenor often placed a fifth above the lead or melody voice. The primary instruments found in bluegrass music are fiddle, mandolin, 5-string banjo and Dobro (resophonic guitar played with a slide) with guitar and double bass added for a rhythm section. Occasionally, a second guitar is added as a lead instrument. A uniquely bluegrass style of playing has evolved for each of the instruments that is generally distinct from the way that instrument is used in other musical styles. Created in 1945, bluegrass music draws heavily on older forms including blues, jazz and the earlier string band music of the Southern Appalachian Mountains. Today, bluegrass music is played in countries all around the world with a faithfulness to the original form that is ofen astonishing.Or something close to that... NEXT.. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: kendall Date: 06 Sep 02 - 07:48 AM Well! Barbara, next time I visit I'll just bring my guitar. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 06 Sep 02 - 08:23 AM Mark, I wouldn't change a word. Well put. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:17 AM Kendall, you're the exception to many a rule! You can show up any time with whatever you like. As for the definition: after going to 10 bluegrass festivals over the summer, I can attest that most bands consisted of guitar, banjo, mandolin, bass, fiddle. Sometimes there was a resophonic guitar (Dobro). Sometimes it was a foursome with guitar, banjo, mandolin, bass. Typically however, by far, it was the g-b-m-b-f combination with three vocalists doing melody, tenor, baritone, with an occasional bass singer. Jams, however, are a different thing. Don't recall seeing any clawhammer on stage, but there was plenty of it at our jams. Didn't see any harmonica on stage, but there was occasional harmonica at our jams. We had a bluegrass saxophone once, cello, bones, autoharp, concertina, etc. The music was bluegrass. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Chip A. Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:23 PM That pretty well nails it for me Mark. Well put. Chip |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,petr Date: 06 Sep 02 - 12:47 PM One thing I would add, is that while a lot of influence is drawn from Southern Old time music, a key difference is that Old time is primarily a dance music whereas Bluegrass is mainly a performance tradition. Petr |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 06 Sep 02 - 03:23 PM Good point, Petr. And an important difference. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 06 Sep 02 - 09:08 PM Great definition, Mark. It's not easy to do. It's hard to have a discussion without knowing what we are discussing. I am wondering now about the differences between bluegrass and old-time music. Is three finger banjo playing one of the differences? Are there other differences besides old-time being oriented towards dance music? I guess this means the genealogy of bluegrass itself can't be traced back too far although some bluegrass music can be traced back. Comments? |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 06 Sep 02 - 10:16 PM From the IBMA Website.
Bluegrass Music: The Roots |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Sep 02 - 01:50 AM Barbara, Thanks for posting that information from the IBMA site. Good stuff. I'm not sure I entirely agree with the first couple of paragraphs though. They seem to completely discount the influence of African music on all modern American forms. I suspect the IBMA may be more interested in public relations than true scholarship in that article. Turning again to Cantwell—I really like Cantwell, can you tell?—we see what is perhaps a more scholarly analysis of the beginnings of bluegrass. In his book Bluegrass Breakdown, Cantwell devotes an entire chapter to African Rhythms and the Bluegrass Beat. I don't think this aspect can be overemphasized. He also devotes a chapter to Bluegrass and Jazz. I think anyone seriously interested in learning about the geneology of bluegrass would do well to include Cantwell's book in their library.
(Cantwell: Bluegrass Breakdown, p.105)
(Cantwell: Bluegrass Breakdown, pp.106-107)
(Cantwell: Bluegrass Breakdown, pp.109-110)
(Cantwell: Bluegrass Breakdown, p.113)I know this post is way too long but I figured those who are following the thread would be interested. If not, I apologize. - Mark
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 07 Sep 02 - 08:15 AM Not too long, Mark, and most interesting. Thanks. Interesting that no one has mentioned Arnold Schultz, the black blues guitarist who was a neighbor and friend of Bill Monroe's who supposedly had a huge influence on Bill's music. Don't know much beyond that he existed. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Sep 02 - 11:08 AM Barbara, I get so excited when you say Arnold Schultz. <g> I think Schultz was at least as important an influence on Monroe as was his uncle, Pendleton Vandiver. A great deal of what is in bluegrass music is clearly African-American in origin and Monroe himself said he considered himself primarily a blues singer. Although never recorded, Arnold Schultz has had more influence on American music than most people whose recordings we still have. Not only was Shultz an important influence for Monroe but he was also a key influence in the musical development of Mose Rager, Ike Everly, Merle Travis and Chet Atkins. When you consider the number of composers and musicians influenced by those gentlemen, it's no exageration to say that Schultz's impact is at least as great as, say, Robert Johnston or Jimmie Rodgers. Maybe Schultz should be in one of the “halls of fame.” - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Sep 02 - 11:24 AM Robert Johnston was evidently a distant cousin of Robert Johnson, the great delta bluesman. Sorry for the typo. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST Date: 07 Sep 02 - 11:10 PM Mark- Thanks for your Cantwell post. Another interesting aspect of bluegrass is trading solos, a standard practice among jazz musicians. There is not only a strong influence from blues (as I mentioned "blues"as a source of bluegrass in my definition) and jazz but earlier from minstrel music. From the 1830's until the early 1900's the syncopated rhythms of minstrel music which were based on (or an imitation of) the music of African Americans paved the way for the development of blues and jazz forms. There are also many minstrel songs in the bluegrass/ old-time repertoire. Richie- |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 08 Sep 02 - 03:37 PM Richie, you're welcome. You talk about mentioning blues in your definition. I hope everyone realized that my definition essentially was your definition. I viewed the definition thing a collaborative exercise so I just took the strawman or “first liar's” definition you posted and tweaked it to add my own slant. I figured someone else would come along and tweak that one in turn. The fact that it still hasn't included every nuance of what makes music bluegrass or not just reinforces my original contention that we won't ever get to the point of having a complete, all-encompasing definition. As I think Barbara pointed out, whether music is accepted as bluegrass depends in part on the context in which it's offered. The criteria for the concert stage may be far more restrictive than criteria for a campground session or neighborhood saloon. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 08 Sep 02 - 11:39 PM This is my first post to this good thread I believe, and I just want to drop one more name into the mix. This guy is even more of a MISSING LINK to Earl Scruggs style of banjo picking than the more primitive styles of Obray Ramsey and Bascom Lunsford. After a quick perusal of all of the posts in this thread, nowhere could I find any mention whatsoever of this obvious (to me anyhow) influence on Mr. Earl. That individual is SNUFFY JENKINS !!!!! Any comments? If I indeed missed mention of him here, I stand chagrined. Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:20 AM No need to stand chagrined, Art. Jenkins was the man. I seem to remember hearing Jenkins with Pappy Sherrill at the UofC Folk Festival a very long time ago. What Jankins played wasn't exactly Scruggs style but it was right up in there. It seems to me I've read that Monroe first heard Jenkins play when he and Charlie were on tour. I can't put my hands on any academic source for that information right now so the story may be apocryphal. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 09 Sep 02 - 11:23 AM There is another important component to the definition of bluegrass that has not been mentioned yet, and in many ways it defines the genre today. Bluegrass is much more than just about music. Bluegrass is really a lifestyle. It's about hundreds of annual music festivals around the U.S. and other countries, about jam sessions in people's living rooms and back yards, internet discussion lists, folksy local newsletters and national magazines like "Bluegrass Unlimited," taking up an instrument as an adult, camping out on a mountainside farm with 10,000 other "pickers," participating in a music for all ages, and bonding with a circle of similar-minded family-oriented "bluegrassers." Some of the best music of all is the field-picking at the campsites. If you go to a festival, you will find jam sessions everywhere, at all hours around the clock. And you will hear instrumentalists, vocalists and harmony as good as or better than that on stage. Quite often, stage performers join in the field-picking after their show. Bluegrass performers are accessible off-stage, unlike performers of many other kinds of music. They sit at their booths selling recordings and talking to the fans after a performance. Many of them pick all night in the field, unless their bus whisks them off to the next concert stop. It's a music genres where young, old, and everyone in between are evident and welcome. The old-timers welcome new listeners and pickers, eager to draw youth into the culture of this music they love, to keep the music alive and growing. It's a genre where young people dazzle listeners with flash and energy, while also respecting and learning from the musicianship and traditions of the older musicians. Groups like Nickel Creek and Yonder Mountain String Band perform on the same stage as Ralph Stanley and Del McCoury. Families attend the festivals with babies and grandparents. Teens form their own "sessions" and play music all night, as do their pickin' parents! Many folks go to listen and eventually end up participating. It's very much a participative sport, and often people are surprised to find themselves taking up one of the traditional bluegrass instruments as an adult. It's the kind of acoustic music where beginners can easily join in, yet virtuosos abound. Folks who meet at a bluegrass festival become like family. They return each year to meet and greet people from all over the country, and friendships flourish along with the music. We have good friends in all the northeastern states and Canadian Maritime Provinces, people we met camping at bluegrass festivals. It's a joyful reunion each year when we see them again during the summer and share a few days of music. We're like a roving band of musical nomads, forming our little RV cities in a different state each weekend, setting up the grills, tuning up the instruments, renewing the ties that bind us to each other and the music, and finding new friends and new songs. There are bluegrassers (like us) who take their vacation time in long weekends, hoarding the precious days so they can go to a festival every weekend during the warm months. There are others who plan a vacation around a special, distant festival, such as Jekyll Island New Year's Bluegrass Festival in Georgia or Telluride in June in Colorado. It's more than just music; it's a lifestyle. Sorry for being so wordy. I take my bluegrass seriously.
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 09 Sep 02 - 12:23 PM Great thoughts, Barbara. No discussion of genealogy would be complete without looking at the present generation and anticipating future generations. I rarely make it to the big eastern festivals any more but when I attend the local festivals, it's always to pick with friends, not to see the booked bands. I've actually attended festivals without going to the stage area to hear any band. That's why I said that a definition of bluegrass might depend on the context in which it's being enjoyed. One problem with the campground pickers, though, is that some of the sessions can a little too loose (-Lautrec) for my taste. I try to avoid the groups with too many guitars and no common notion of what being in tune means. It's hard to understimate the “bluegrass festival lifestyle” when talking about the development of the music since c. 1970. Newcomers may have the impression that early bluegrass was widely populer and is now enjoying an unexpected resurgance; and judging from media attention that seems to be the case. The fact is, though, that bluegrass has steadily increased in popularity pretty much from its inception and that increasing popularity is due in large part to the bluegrass festivals. It's largely the festival goers who buy the recordings, the magazines, the instruments, the strings, capos, etc. that keep the music alive and growing today. Consider that, for the most part, you can't hear bluegrass on the radio, you can't see it on television, you don't find bluegrass CDs at the big mall music shops, the big concert venues don't feature bluegrass, most local music stores sell pianos and electric guitars, to a large extent, the festivals really are the bluegrass scene. In that context at least, Barbara, you're doing a great deal more to keep the music growing than I. Thanks. Friends of mine whose sole livelihood comes from bluegrass (yes there are some) have to work every possible angle all the time to maintain a middle class lifestyle. In addition to festivals, they have work every arts council angle, parking lot opening, public school opportunity and teaching venue. Come to think of it, it's a lot like being a professional folksinger. It has to be its own reward. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 09 Sep 02 - 12:51 PM Mark, It's always good to cyber-talk with old friends. I too saw Snuffy Jenkins with Pappy Sherrill back in those times. There was an LP I bought that has disapeared now... In those ol days at the U. of Chicago Folk Fest there was ALWAYS a folklorist or two to put the lineage in perspective for us who were soaking up those festivals and their music like the huge super-sucking pneumatic devices that can clear a barge on the Mississippi River of corn in a few minutes time. Archie Green comes to mind now after all these years. The New Lost City Ramblers, Mike, John Tom and Tracy, besides being great musicians and the original turner-oners of us city kids to Old Timey music, they were also among the ones at those early festivals who could link Roscoe Holcomb's high lonesome sound to Bill Monroe's for us uneducated enthusiasts. Anyhow, we were told in no uncertain terms by Archie Green or whoever that Earl Scruggs said openly that he had took hold of Snuffy Jenkins' style and ran with it----smoothed it out---made it flow like a jet-propelled waterfall of notes over some high cliff. Someone else once said that frets on a banjo were nothing but speed bumps. Well, they sure never stopped or even slowed down Mr. Earl Scruggs !! Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:14 PM Just some comments on recent posts: Barbara- That was very well written post on what "bluegrass" means today. I'd expect to read that in a magazine. Mark- liked your "too loose (-Lautrec)" pun, only banjo jokes should be allowed!!! Art- Snuffy Jenkins and others helped develop the "3-Finger Style" which Earl Scruggs perfected. I still think that it's the 3-Finger style that is one of the important distinctions between Old-Time and Bluegrass. If that is the essential element defining bluegrass then it could be argued that Snuffy Jenkins and Obray Ramsey (there's a great article about him I believe in: Banjo Unlimited) were early (pre Monroe) bluegrassers. Comments on the 3-Finger style anyone? -Richie
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 09 Sep 02 - 01:38 PM Don Reno was the first to play a banjo breaks with many fewer grace notes and rolls----mostly melody notes one after the other. This style was refined by Bill Keith-----called "Brad Keith" when he was in Monroe's band because B.M. wouldn't have TWO Bills in his band. He WAS Bill----and that was that. Keith's style allowed him to do fiddle tunes note-for-note on a banjo. It blew us away when Bill Keith's "Sailor's Hornpipe" showed up on an LP of Bill Monroe's band, This was a HUGE innovation----and folks were surprised at the seeming openness of Bill Monroe who was most times seen as a rigid keeper of the bluegrass flame. But a flame will go where the fuel is located. Art Thieme Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 09 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM Right, Art, I remember when the Keith style flame swept up all the bluegrass banjo players who could manage the technique, and Keith was doing it at a time when Monroe would put the whole band in a station wagon, tie the bass on top, and drive from Nashville to California for a one night stand. They went through some very hard times with nothing much but desire to live on. Ralph Rinzler with his promotion and scholarship along with Carlton Haney who produced the first bluegrass festival in 1965 really saved Monroe's career and bluegrass music along with it. It took Bill a little while to realize that's what they were doing but he eventually got the idea. And don't forget Bob Black. Bob is one of the world's foremost fiddle tune banjo players and joined Bill's band at a time in the seventies when Bill was having a hard time finding and keeping really good banjo players. Bob and Bill had a mutual admiration that ended only at Bill's passing. - Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,petr Date: 09 Sep 02 - 04:07 PM Barbara's post above included the comment... ...The invention of the phonograph and the onset of the radio in the early 1900s brought this old-time music out of the rural Southern mountains to people all over the United States. interesting and ironic that while these media helped spread the music to a greater audience, at the same time it had a negative effect. Music collectors that returned to the appalachians found that only 10 years after radio and the gramophone became more common, people were singing less, and forgetting traditional tunes. (I think it is not unlike the resurgence of Irish Traditional music in Ireland following Michael Colemans recordings in the USA..) While it became more popular, there was some loss of the regional styles as more people wanted to play In Michael COlemans Sligo Style) petr |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 09 Sep 02 - 11:11 PM Thanks for some of the info about the banjo. The Obray Ramsey article I read was in the Banjo Newsletter. Mark was speaking about the role of different instruments in a bluegrass group and I was wondering about the development of the guitar as a solo instrument. Do you think Doc Watson was an innovator of flatpick solos? Who are some of the early bluegrass style guitarist? Also I put my the version my group plays of "Shady Grove" (in two keys simultaneously- G and Em) on my website. We are an amateur group but we have fun playing. Click here I've also started putting some bluegrass and related lyrics on my site. Hope y'all can use them. I'd like some comments on whether (three-finger style) banjo playing defines old-time and bluegrass. Richie- |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 10 Sep 02 - 09:05 AM Richie, thanks for your comment about my post. Maybe I should polish it up and send it in to B.U. although I bet most readers of that magazine already know everything I wrote! Mark, I really enjoy your eloquently written stories. And I know what you mean about too many guitars. I remember one recent session where there were 5 guitars and a bass. I switched off to fiddle, but the other four just sat there clutching their guitars while their mandolins sat there gathering dust. Do some people LIKE the sound of 5 guitars and a bass? |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:00 PM Hi Richie, a student of Banjo, I jumped in here when the discussion seems to be at a slow point and I read your comments about early Bluegrass Banjo. I tried to find as much as I could about picking in the early styles - too old to be trying the fancy Scruggs method - and found that a great deal of popular modernish songs can be done this way. What I got was the rule that one should not employ 'crosspicking' like I do on Guitar; instead one is supposed keep the thumb on the 5th string most of the time. IOW the thumb can play off beats which it would never ever do in cross picking.
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 10 Sep 02 - 12:33 PM Sorefingers- Would that be three-finger style? Frailing style or Clawhammer style? Mountain style? I've taught banjo for years but I'm not sure what you are playing. Perhaps this would be a good time to discuss, types of picking and how they are identified. I'll throw out some ideas. These are used for bluegrass and related types of music:
Mountain style: with fingers and sometimes fingerpicks. Picked with thumb playing melody of melodic riffs.
Frailing or Clawhammer style: Melody is played with middle finger (sometimes index) with thumb providing rhythm and hitting the 5th string.
Three Finger style: Scruggs style
Melodic Three Finger style: Scruggs style using cross-string scales and scales (for fast melodies like fiddle tunes) instead of arpeggios.
No one has established on this thread whether the type of banjo playing indicates birth of bluegrass music. Here's to Rick's early post. Do we agree with this? Rick Fielding; "if you believe (as I do) that what "we" call Bluegrass started that day that Earl Scruggs joined Bill Monroe, Lester Flatt, Chubby Wise, and Cedric Rainwater on the stage of the "Opry", you have to deal with the origins of 3 finger banjo."
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 10 Sep 02 - 01:51 PM POINT 1) And Doc Watson and Ralph Stanley doing theirs with two fingers !!
POINT 2) Bill Keith may have refined what early New York frvival picker (horror of horrors) BILLY FAIER started with his LP called THE ART OF THE FIVE STRING BANJO on Riverside Records. "Devil's Dream" and maybe "Sailor's Hornpipe" were on that one. They and other ethnic tunes (not yet called "World Music") were included on that terribly influential yet usually overlooked album. Ah, what a tangled web we weave... Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 10 Sep 02 - 03:58 PM I mean a steel pick attached to each of the Index and Middle finger ends as well a plastic on the thumb, I mean picking the same way as Guitar picking but NOT crossing the thumb which one MUST do in order to play Bluegrass as I see it - errr tabbed that is, since I cannot do it at all. My tunes includes Cripple Creek but my thumb never leaves the (little) 5th string :0) |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Steve Latimer Date: 10 Sep 02 - 11:02 PM I think it was Ralph Stanley's guitar player (whose name escapes me) who is credited with developing the cross picking guitar style. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Barbara Shaw Date: 11 Sep 02 - 09:50 AM The cross-picking guitar innovator with the Stanley Brothers was George Shuffler, who also plays bass. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 11 Sep 02 - 11:20 AM Who came first----Sheffler on guitar or Jesse McReynolds (Jim & Jesse) doin' crosspicking on mandolin? Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 11 Sep 02 - 12:34 PM Thanks, Barbara. These threads always bring to mind a lot of things I haven't thought of for a while. I remember Rick saying, in another thread, that Shuffler and Bill Napier disagreed over which of them first crosspicked on a Stanley Brother recording. Art, I found some material on Billy Faier on Kingston Trio-related site. There are other sites as well but I didn't find anything discussing his technique for playing fiddle tunes. What was the effect of his technique on those tunes? - Mark
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Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 11 Sep 02 - 02:11 PM Mark, It was pretty much a cross between the classical banjo (with gut strings) from the earlier last century and what Pete Seeger did in Goofing Off Suite plus a rythmic feel that those tunes have naturally from the Celtic tradition from which they sprang. Note for note--like Keith but without a band and the heavy drive that a band might impart. Keith really made it very impressive I've always thought. But I hated to see the Scruggs-tuners go in favor of those strange Keith-tuners. ;-) Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Sep 02 - 11:39 AM Mark, I met Bob Black in Iowa City (or Stone City) back in the 70s I think. He was great then. I think it was the night Keith Dempster's farm burnt down so he couldn't put me up. In Illinois for some reason we've not kept up on Iowa Bob's doings. What records might you recommend to someone in these latter times? Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Mark Clark Date: 14 Sep 02 - 01:59 PM Ah yes, Kieth Dempster's farm. Kieth is the owner of a popular restaurant and folk club in Iowa City. Kieth still provides a venue for all kinds of well known musicians who are passing through the area. Bob and his wife Kristie play all over and have just released their own CD, Iowa Songscape. Bob also plays as a member of other groups and has toured as a member of many popular bands including Rhonda Vincent. For detailed information on Bob & Kristie Black click the link and check out their Web site. Bob has appeared on more than twenty different albums either as a featured performer or as a sideman. He recorded with Monroe in the seventies as a Blue Grass Boy and recorded his first solo album, Ladies on the Steamboat. Recordings can be ordered through his Web site or through commercial channels including Camsco and Sandy Paton. The Banjoy Web site also features tablature for the five-string banjo that Bob has personally prepared. Banjo players should find this a growing resource. Here are a few links to MP3 files Bob & Kristie have on their site. There are more tracks there but these are just a few I thought might be interesting to folks in this thread.
- Mark |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: GUEST,Richie Date: 15 Sep 02 - 12:46 PM I've been reading Kinney Rorrer's book- Rambling Blues: The Life and Songs of Charlie Poole. Here's a quote about three-finger banjo which Charlie played:
"Poole's three-finger roll had now evolved to a higher level pointing to the development of of bluegrass music, with its fast twin fiddle breaks and banjo breaks. The fact that Poole was playing the melody rather than his usual ragged back-up made these performances the most revolutionary yet." Rorrer is referring to Poole's May 1929 sessions for Columbia. It appears Poole had been influenced by the "classical style" banjo players of the late 1800's and early 1900's. Could this mean that Charlie Poole is in fact an originator of bluegrass music? This would assume that the three-finger style is a partial definition of bluegrass music as it would be named during the Monroe/Scruggs era. What do you think? Richie |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: TinDor Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM Interesting thread. The geneology of Bluegrass is basically... West African syncopation/Banjo & Banjo Frailing styles meets Anglo-Celtic derived fiddling = Old Time Music Old Time Music is the precursor to Bluegrass. Bluegrass instrumentally speaking is just Jazzed up Old Time music. You can Bebop-like phrasing (whereas Bob Wills used Swing Jazz in his "WEstern Swing" style) in Bluegrass and should also mention there is a Ragtime element in the Scruggs Banjo style. I remember reading that if you slow down the Scruggs style it sounds along the lines of a Joplin rag. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Janie Date: 10 Nov 09 - 10:41 AM What a great discussion. Thanks, TinDor for refreshing this thread. It's a gem. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: The Sandman Date: 10 Nov 09 - 11:46 AM yes,to my understanding Charlie was an originator of bluegass music. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Amos Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:03 PM An avid banjo friend of mine has the following collection which shows the timeline as far as recordings goes pretty well. Notice how few the recordings were before 1955, and how explosive in number between 1962-1976. > A Texas Jam Session > Al Jones , Frank Necessary and The Spruce Mountain Boys - (1976) - Self > Titled > Al Wood & The Smokey Ridge Boys - (1973) - Sing A Bluegrass Song > Al Wood & The Smokey Ridge Boys - (1982) - Kentucky Country Home > Alan Munde - (1976) - Poor Richard's Almanac > Alan Munde - (1980) - Banjo Kid Picks Again > Allen Shelton - (1977) - Original Banjo Man > Allen Shelton - (1985) - 5 String Dobro & Banjo > Bailey Brothers, The - (1980) - Just As The Sun Went Down > Banjo Dan & The Mid-Nite Plowboys - (1977) - High Tme > Barrier Brothers, The - (1962) - Golden Bluegrass Hits > Barrier Brothers, The - (1962) - More Golden Bluegrass Hits > Bass Mountain Boys, The - (1990) - A Beautiful Life > Bass Mountain Boys, The - (1991) - with Chubby Wise - Fiddlin' With Tradition > Bass Mountain Boys, The - (1992) - Carolina Calling Me > Bass Mountain Boys, The - (1994) - Love Of A Woman > Benny Martin - (1975) - Tennessee Jubilee > Benny Martin - (1977) - Turkey In The Grass > Big Timber Bluegrass - (1981) - Country Convoy > Big Timber Bluegrass - (1981) - Fiddle And The Five > Bill Blaylock - (1973) - Don't Cry - New Bluegrass For All The People > Bill Clifton - (1957-1958) - & The Dixie Mountain Boys - Blue Ridge Mountain > Blues > Bill Clifton - (1959) - Mountain Folk Songs (Starday SLP 111) > Bill Clifton - (1962) - & His Dixie Mountain Boys - The Bluegrass Sound Of > Bill Clifton > Bill Clifton - (1964) - Code Of The Mountain (Starday SLP 271) > Bill Clifton - (1975) - Come By The Hills > Bill Clifton - (1977) - Clifton And Company > Bill Duncan - (1961) - & The Harmony Mountain Boys - A Scene Near My Country > Home (King 825) > Bill Emerson - (1964) - Banjo Pickin' N' Hot Fiddlin' Vol 2 > Bill Emerson - (1968) - & Cliff Waldron - New Shades Of Grass > Bill Emerson - (1991) - Reunion (Webco WEB-CD 0140) > Bill Emerson And Cliff Waldron - (1970) - Bluegrass Country > Bill Harrell - (1963) - & The Virginians - The Wonderful World Of Bluegrass > Music > Bill Keith & Jim Collier - (1979) - Bill Keith & Jim Collier > Bill Keith & Jim Rooney - (1962-09-02) - Chilmark Concert, Martha's Vineyard, > MA > Bill Keith & Jim Rooney - (1962-xx-xx) - WHRB Tom Rush's Balladeers Show, > Cambridge, MA > Bill Keith & Jim Rooney - (1963) - Livin' On The Mountain > Bill Keith - (1984) - Banjoistics > Bill Keith - Something Auld, Something Newgrass, Something Borrowed, Something > Bluegrass > Bill Knopf - (1977) - Bill Knopf On Banjo > Bill Lowe - (1977) - Kentucky Farewell > Bill Monroe & Charlie Monroe - (1969) - Bill Monroe & Charlie Monroe > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1976) - The Weary Traveler (MCA MCA 2173) > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1957) - Knee Deep In Bluegrass > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1960) - Mr. Blue Grass > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1964) - Bill Monroe's Best > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1964) - I'll Meet You In Church Sunday > Morning > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1964) - Sings Country Songs > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1965) - The Original Bluegrass Sound > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1967) - Bill Monroe's Uncle Pen > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1970) - Kentucky Blue Grass > Bill Monroe & His Bluegrass Boys - (1972) - Bill Monroe's Uncle Pen > Bill Monroe & The Bluegrass Boys - (1988) - Southern Flavor > Bill Monroe - (1977) - Bluegrass Memories > Bill Monroe - (1950-1969) - The Country Music Hall Of Fame > Bill Monroe - (1958) - I Saw The Light > Bill Monroe - (1961) - & His Blue Grass Boys - Bluegrass Ramble > Bill Monroe - (1961) - The Great Bill Monroe > Bill Monroe - (1976-05-04) - Live Radio, Nuggets Studio, Nashville, TN > Bill Monroe - (1985) - Bill Monroe & Stars Of The Bluegrass Hall Of Fame > Billy Perry - (1976) - Bluegrass Jam > Bill_Monroe_1936 - 1994 > Black Diamond Bluegrass Band, The - (1983) - Secret Of The Waterfall > Blaine Sprouse - (1979) - Blaine Sprouse > Blaine Sprouse - (1981) - Summertime > Blom Brothers, The - (1978) - Blom Brothers, The With the Bluegrass Swedes > Blue Denim - (1976) - Volume 2 > Blue Highway - Through The Window Of A Train - 2007 > Blue Ridge Partners, The - (1978) - The Blue Ridge Partners > Blue Ridge Partners, The - (1981) - How Would You Like Being Lonesome > Bluegrass 45 - (1971) - Bluegrass 45 > Bluegrass 45 - (1971) - Caravan > Bluegrass 45 - (1973) - In The Morning > Bluegrass Album Band, The - (1981-10-25) - Great American Music Hall, San > Francisco, CA > Bluegrass Album Band, The - (1989-12-26) - The Birchmere, Alexandria, VA > Bluegrass Blend - (1979) - Ramblin' Fever > Bluegrass Cardinals, The - (1977) - Welcome To Virginia > Bluegrass Cardinals, The - (1978) - Livin' In The Good Old Days > Bluegrass Cardinals, The - (1979) - Cardinal Soul > Bluegrass Cardinals, The - (1980) - Live & On Stage, With Special Guests > Bluegrass Cardinals, The - (1983) - Cardinal Class > Bluegrass Cardinals, The - (1984) - Home Is Where The Heart Is > Bluegrass Cats, The - (1973) - On Camera > Bluegrass Gentlemen, The - (1962) - The Bluegrass Gentlemen > Bluegrass Hillbillies, The - (1963) - Pickin' n' Grinnin' > Bluegrass Kun-Tree, The - (1981) - Stretching Out > Bluegrass Meditations, The - (1982) - Precious Memories > Bluegrass Playboys, The - (1963) - World Of Bluegrass > Bluegrass Tarheels, The - (1972) - Tarheel Country > Bob Ensign & The Stump Jumpers - (1967) - Pickin' Grinnin' 'N' Sigin' > Bob Johnson & The Lonesome Travelers - (1962) - 12 Shades Of Bluegrass > Bobby Atkins & The Countrymen - (1977) - A Tribute To Charlie Monroe > Bobby Atkins & The Countrymen - (1987) - Songs For Mama > Bobby Atkins, Frank Poindexter And Tony Rice - (1968) - 68 Session > Bobby Smith & Josh Graves - (1976) - Meetin' At The Crossroads > Boot Hill - (1977) - Steel Rails > Boys From Indiana, The - (1974) - Atlanta Is Burning > Boys From Indiana, The - (1975) - Bluegrass Music Is Out Of Sight > Boys From Indiana, The - (1976) - One More Bluegrass Show > Boys From Indiana, The - (1977) - Memories And Dreams > Boys From Indiana, The - (1981) - Show Me My Home > Boys From Indiana, The - (1981) - The Best Of > Brother Oswald & Charlie Collins - (1976) - Oz And Charlie > Brother Oswald - (1972) - Brother Oswald > Brothers N' Bluegrass, The - (1980) - Red Hot Bluegrass > Buck Owens - (1971) - Ruby & Other Bluegrass Specials > Buck Ryan & Smitty Irvin - (1965) - Ballads And Bluegrass > Buck Ryan - (1976) - Draggin' The Bow > Buck's Stove And Range Company - (1979) - North On The Highway > Butch Robins - (1978) - Fragments Of My Imagicnation > Butch Robins - (1980) - The Fifth Child > Buzz Busby & Leon Morris - (1974) - Honkytonk Bluegrass > Buzz Busby - (1981) - A Pioneer Of Traditional Bluegrass > Buzz Busby - The Bluegrass Sounds of Buzz Busby, Yesterday and Today > Byron Berline, Sam Bush, & Mark O'Connor - (1976) - In Concert > Carl Jackson - (1971) - Bluegrass Festival > Carl Jackson - (1973) - Banjo Player > Carl Jackson - (1980) - Banjo Man, A Tribute To Earl Scruggs > Carl Jackson - (1982) - Song Of The South > Carl Story & the Brewster Brothers - (1967) - Sing The Gospel Songs You Ask > For > Carl Story - (1963) - Mighty Close To Heaven > Carl Story - (1965) - & His Rambling Mountaineers - Sacred Songs Of Life & The > Hereafter > Carl Story - (1969) - Light At The River > Carroll Best String Band, The - (1982) - Pure Mountain Melodys > Carroll County Ramblers, The - (1973) - Down To The Nitty Gritty > Charlie Cline - (1976) - More Dobro > Charlie Monroe & His Kentucky Partners - (1946-1951) - Charlie Monroe & His > Kentucky Partners > Charlie Moore & His Dixie Partners - (1972) - Gospel Time > Charlie Moore - (1963) - & Bill Napier - Folk 'n Hill > Charlie Moore - (1966) - & Bill Napier - Lonesome Truck Drivers > Charlie Moore - (1972) - & The Dixie Partners - Sings Good Bluegrass > Charlie Moore - (1972) - The Original Rebel Soldier > Charlie Moore - (1973) - & The Dixie Partners - A Tribute To Clyde Moody > Charlie Moore - (1975) - & Bill Napier - Collectors Edition > Chick Corea and Bela Fleck - (2007) - The Enchantment > Chubby Anthony & Big Timber - (1979) - Love And Life > Chubby Anthony & Big Timber - (1980) - The Best Of Bluegrass - Big Timber > Bluegrass > Clearwater - (1975) - Willow Of Time > Cliff Carlisle - Cliff Carlisle Volume 1 > Cliff Carlisle - Cliff Carlisle Volume 2 > Cliff Waldron & The New Shades Of Grass - One More Step - LP Rebel > Cliff Waldron & The New Shades Of Grass - Rebel SLP 1539 (1974) > Cliff Waldron - (1970) - & The New Shades Of Grass - Right On > Cliff Waldron - (1971) - & The New Shades Of Grass - Traveling Light > Cliff Waldron - (1972) - & The New Shades Of Grass - One More Mile > Cliff Waldron - (1973) - Bluegrass Time > Cliff Waldron - (1976) - Gospel > Cliff Waldron - (1978) - God Walks The Dark Hills > Clinton King & The Virginia Mountaineers - (1976) - Blue Ridge Bluegrass > Clyde Bowling & The Southern Bluegrass - (1986) - Butcher Hollow Boy > Connie & Babe And The Backwoods Boys - (1952-1960) - Early Days Of Bluegrass > Vol. 10 > Connie & Babe And The Backwoods Boys - (1973) - Basic Bluegrass > Connie & Babe And The Backwoods Boys - (1975) - Backwoods Bluegrass > Country Cooking With The Fiction Brothers - (1975) - Country Cooking With The > Fiction Brothers > Country Cut-Ups, The - (1967) - Go To College > Country Gazette Don't Give Up Your Day Job > Country Gazette - Traitor In Our Midst > Country Gentlemen, The - (1962) - Bluegrass At Carnegie Hall > Country Gentlemen, The - (1963) - Bluegrass Country (aka Bluegrass Hootenanny) > Country Gentlemen, The - (1963) - Folk Session Inside > Country Gentlemen, The - (1963-11-26) - The Shamrock, Washington, D.C > Country Gentlemen, The - (1965) - Songs of the Pioneers > Country Gentlemen, The - (1966) - Bringing Mary Home > Country Gentlemen, The - (1966) - The Traveler & Other Favorites > Country Gentlemen, The - (1966-09-xx) - Live from The Stage Of The Roanoke > Bluegrass Festival > Country Gentlemen, The - (1969) - New Look New Sound > Country Gentlemen, The - (1969) - Play It Like It Is > Country Gentlemen- On The Road (and More)_256kbps > Country Gentlemen_Sugar Hill Collection_320kbps > Country Grass, The - (1974) - Livin' Free > Country Ham - (1977) - Country Ham (Vetco LP 512) > Country Ham - (1979) - Where The Mountain Laurel Blooms (Vetco LP 515) > Country Ham - (1980) - My Old Paint Mare (Vetco LP 517) > Country Ham - (1980) - The Old Country Church (Vetco LP 519) > Coup De Grass - (1977) - Rhythm and Bluegrass > Crowe Brothers, The & Raymond Fairchild - (1981) - Sing 'Always True' > Crowe Brothers, The - I Knew It Wasn't You (The Telephone Song) > Curly Ray Cline - (1969) - The Old Kentucky Fox Hunter & His Lonesome Pine > Fiddle > Curly Ray Cline - (1972) - My Little Home In West Virginia > Curly Seckler - (1971) - Sings Again > Curly Seckler - (1979) - No Doubt About It > Curly Seckler - (1980) - & The Nashville Grass - Take A Little Time > Dan Crary > Dan Crary - (1979) - Sweet Southern Girl > Dan Huckabee - (1976) - Why Is This Man Smiling > Dan Huckabee - (1980) - Acoustic Steel > Darby & Tarlton - Jimmy Tarlton & Tom Darby > Dave Evans & River Bend - (1979) - Dave Evans & River Bend > Dave Evans & River Bend - (1980) - Call Me Long Gone > Dave Evans - (1983) - Poor Rambler > Dave Grisman - (2000) - The Pizza Tapes > Dave Vernon & The Dixie Rebels - (1984) - Dixieland For Me > Dave Woolum & The Laurel County Partners - (196-) - The Greatest Reunion Of > All > Dave Woolum & The Laurel County Partners - (1968) - The Greatest Reunion Of > All > Dave Woolum & The Laurel County Partners - (1978) - Done Gone & Done It > Dee Gunter - Dee Gunter > Del McCoury - (1968) - Sings Bluegrass > Del McCoury - (1971) - Collector's Special > Del McCoury - Moneyland (2008)_175k > Denis LePage & Station Road - (1979) - Denis LePage & Station Road > Dillards, The - Back Porch Bluegrass > Dillards, The - Import - Back Porch Bluegrass > Dillards, The - (1963-11-11) - The Mecca, Buena Park, CA > Dillards, The - (1979) - Mountain Rock > Dillards, The - (1980) - Homecoming And Family Reunion > Dillards, The - Live, Almost > Dixie Gentlemen, The & Tut Tailor - (1966) - Blues And Bluegrass > Dixie Gentlemen, The - (1963) - Country Style Of The Dixie Gentlemen > Don Reno, Bill Harrell & The Tennessee Cut-Ups - (1967) - Bluegrass Favorites > (Jalyn JLP 108) > Don Reno & Bill Harrell - (1976) & The Tennessee Cut-Ups - The Don Reno Story > Don Reno & Bill Harrell & The Tennessee Cut-Ups - (1967) - Yellow Pages (Derby > Town SR 101) > Don Reno & Red Smiley - (1952-1956) - Emotions > Don Reno & Red Smiley - (1954-1956) - Good Old Country Ballads > Don Reno & Red Smiley - (1957) - Bluegrass Hits > Don Reno & Red Smiley - (1962) - The True Meaning Of Christmas > Don Reno & Red Smiley - (1971) - Letter Edged In Black > Don Reno - (1970) - Don Reno (Sardis 5012) > Don Reno - (1965) - Mr 'Five String' Don Reno & His Tennessee Cutups Play > Bluegrass > Don Reno - (1988) - Family & Friends > Don Reno and Benny Martin - (1967) - Bluegrass Gospel Favorites > Doug Dillard & Byron Berline - (1970-1971) - Practice Sessions > Doug Green - (1972) - Liza Jane & Sally Anne > Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver - (1979-05-19) - The Birchmere, Alexandria, VA > Doyle Lawson - (1977) - Tennessee Dreams > Doyle Lawson - 2009 - Lonely Street > Dr. Corns Bluegrass Remedy - (1974) - It'll Tickle Your Innards > Dry Branch Fire Squad, The - (1977) - Born To Be Lonesome > Dry Branch Fire Squad, The - (1977) - Spiritual Songs From Dry Branch > Dudley Hill - (1976) - From A Northern Family > Earl Heywood > Earl Scruggs & The Earl Scruggs Revue - (1972) - I Saw The Light With Some > Help From My Friends > Earl Scruggs Revue > Earl Scruggs Revue - 2005 - Anniversary Special Vol 2 > Earl Scruggs Revue, The - (1972) - Live At Kansas State > Earl Scruggs Revue, The - (1974) - Rockin' Cross The Country > Earl Scruggs Top Of The World > Earl Taylor & Jim McCall with The Stoney Mountain Boys - (1967) - 20 Bluegrass > Favorites > Earl Taylor & The Stoney Mountain Boys - (1969) - The Bluegrass Touch > Earl Taylor And His Blue Grass Mountaineers - (1965) - Blue Grass Taylor-Made > Earl Taylor And His Stoney Mountain Boys - (1959) - Folk Songs From The Blue > Grass > East Virginia - (1977) - Sing Of Witches And Whippoorwills > East Virginia - (1978) - The Winds Of East Virginia > East Virginia - (1979) - New Sounds, New Seasons > East Virginia - (1980) - Pathways Of Tradition > Ed Hamilton & Bluegrass - (1978) - Letter To Mama > Eddie Adcock & Don Reno - (1968) - Sensational Twin Banjos (Rebel SLP 1482) > Eddie Shelton - (1976) - Expedition > Eric Weissberg & Marshall Brickman - (1963) - New Dimensions In Banjo & > Bluegrass > Ernest V. Stoneman - (1927-1928) - Ernest V. Stoneman & His Dixie Mountaineers > Estil C. Ball - Sounds Of The South (Compilation) > Fiction Brothers, The - (1979) - Things Are Coming My Way > Folk Banjo Styles - 1962 vinyl > Foot Hill Boys - (1972) - Bluegrass In The Carolina Mountains mp3 > Frank Necessary & The Wheeling Grass - (1980) - Wheeling > Frank Wakefield - (1972) - Frank Wakefield > Garland Shuping And Wild Country - (1976) - Garlend Shuping And Wild Country > Gene Parker - (1980) - Struttin' To Ferrum > Geoff Stelling's Hard Times Bluegrass Band - (1978) - Hard Driving > Gilbert Caranhac & Bluegrass Connection - Dobro Instrumentals > Goins Brothers, The - (1975) - The Goins Brothers > Goins Brothers, The - (1980) - Wandering Soul > Green Valley Ramblers, The - (1974) - Bluegrass Dawn > Greenbriar Boys, The - (1962-07-30) - Nathan's Restaurant, Oceanside, NY > Greg Cahill - (1980) - Lone Star > Hal Wylie, Roger Sprung & The Progressive Bluegrassers - (197) - Bluegrass > Gold Vol 2 > Hal Wylie, Roger Sprung & The Progressive Bluegrassers - (197x) - Pickin On > The Sunny Side > Hayseed Dixie (2009) - A Golden Shower Of Hits > HAYSEED DIXIE - A Hillbilly Tribute To Mountain Love-2002 > HAYSEED DIXIE - A Hot Piece Of Grass-2005 > Hayseed Dixie - hiddinx > Hayseed Dixie - Let There Be Rockgrass > HAYSEED DIXIE- Weapons Of Grass Destruction-2007 > Heights of Grass - (1978) - Louisiana Saturday Night > Heights of Grass - (1982) - Live At The Flatrock > Herb Smoke - (1973) - Mountain Fiddler > Hocking Valley Boys, The - (1978) - At It Again > Homer & The Barnstormers - (1963) - Bluegrass Banjos On Fire > Hotmud Family, The - (1974) - Stone Mountain Wobble > Hotmud Family, The - (1978) - Years In The Making (Vetco LP 513) > Hotmud Family, The - (1979) - LIVE, As We Know It (Flying Fish FF 087) > Howard Yearwood - (1979) - Saddleback > Hubert Davis & The Season Travelers - (1976) - It's Bluegrass Time Again > IIIrd Tyme Out > IIIrd Tyme Out - 2004 - The Best Durn Ride > IIIrd_Tyme-Out - Erase The Miles > IIIrd_Tyme_Out (2008) - Footprints > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Across The Miles > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Back to the MAC > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Grandpa's Mandolin > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Letter to Home > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Living on the Other Side > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Puttin' New Roots Down > IIIrd_Tyme_Out - Round III at the Mac > IIIrd_Tyme_Out_Russle_Moore > J. D. Crowe & The New South - (1979-04-18) - Kosei Nenkin Sho Hall, Tokyo, > Japan > J. D. Crowe - (1971) - & The Kentucky Mountain Boys - Ramblin' Boy > J. D. Crowe - (1973) - & The Kentucky Mountain Boys - Bluegrass Holiday > J. D. Crowe - (1973) - & The New South - Bluegrass Evolution > J. D. Crowe - (1975) - & The New South - Holiday In Japan > J.E. Mainer & His Mountaineers - More Old Time Mountain Music > Jake Landers & Tom McKinney - (1971) - Present Original Songs And New Banjo > Sounds Of The 70's > Jim & Jesse - (1962) - & The Virginia Boys - WBAM Radio Shows > Jim & Jesse - (1963) - Bluegrass Classics > Jim & Jesse - (1963) - Bluegrass Special > Jim & Jesse - (1964) - The Old Country Church > Jim & Jesse - (1965) - & The Virginia Boys - Berry Pickin' in the Country > Jim & Jesse - (1972) - Mandolin Workshop > Jim & Jesse - (1975) - and the Virginia Boys - Live in Japan > Jim & Jesse - (1975) - Jesus Is The Key To The Kingdom > Jim & Jesse - (1976) - Songs About Our Country > Jim & Jesse - (1980) - Presents Jesse's Guitar Pickin' Showcase > Jim & Jesse And The Virginia Boys - (1968) - All-time Great Country > Instrumentals > Jimmy Arnold - (1974) - Strictly Arnold > Jimmy Arnold - (1977) - Guitar > Jimmy Arnold - (1982) - Rainbow Ride > Jimmy Gaudreau - (1974) - Country Store > Jimmy Gaudreau - (1978) - The Gaudreau Mandolin Album > Jimmy Martin - (1960) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - Good 'N Country > Jimmy Martin - (1962) - & His Sunny Mountain Boys - Country Music Time > Jimmy Martin - (1964) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - Sing Widow Maker > Jimmy Martin - (1965) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - Sunny Side Of The Mountain > Jimmy Martin - (1967) - & His Sunny Mountain Boys - Big And Country > Instrumentals > Jimmy Martin - (1968) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - Tennessee > Jimmy Martin - (1969) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - Free Born Man > Jimmy Martin - (1972) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - I'd Like To Be Sixteen > Again > Jimmy Martin - (1974) - & The Sunny Mountain Boys - Fly Me To Frisco > Jimmy Martin - (1978) - Greatest Bluegrass Hits > Joe Stuart - (1975) - Sittin' On Top Of The World > Joe Val & The New England Bluegrass Boys - (1975) - Joe Val & The New England > Bluegrass Boys > Joe Val & The New England Bluegrass Boys - (1978) - Bound To Ride > Joe Val & The New England Bluegrass Boys - (1981) - Sparkling Brown Eyes > Joe Val & The New England Bluegrass Boys - (1983) - Cold Wind > John cowan - Always Take Me Back > John Cowan - John Cowan > John Cowan - New Tattoo > John Farley - (1978) - Flat Top Guitar > John Fogerty (1973) - The Blue Ridge Rangers > John Hartford - Aereo-Plain (1971) > John Hartford - Morning Bugle (1972) > John Hartford - Nobody Knows What You Do (1976) > John Hartford - Radio John (1971) > Jones Brothers, The - (1981) - & The Log Cabin Boys - Lester > Kenny Baker and Joe Greene - (1967) - High Country (County 714) > Kenny Baker - (1968) - Portrait Of A Bluegrass Fiddler > Kenny Baker - (1970) - Baker's Dozen > Kenny Baker - (1972) - & Josh Graves - Something Different > Kenny Baker - (1972) - Kenny Baker Country > Kenny Baker - (1973) - & Josh Graves - Bucktime! > Kenny Baker - (1973) - Dry & Dusty > Kenny Baker - (1974) - Grassy Fiddle Blues (County 750) > Kenny Baker - (1979) - Farmyard Swing (County 775) > Kenny Baker - (1984) - Highlights > Kentucky Gentlemen, The - (1977) - Kentucky Heritage > Kentucky Mountain Boys - Best Of Blue Grass Favorites > Knoxville Grass - (1977) - Knoxville Grass > Knoxville Grass - (1978) - Darby's Castle > Knoxville Grass - (1979) - Evolution > Knoxville Grass - (1981) - Painted Lady > Larry McNeely - Rhapsody for Banjo > Larry Rice - (1975) - Mr Poverty > Larry Richardson And Happy Smith - (1957-08-04) - Warren Green Hotel, > Warrenton, Va > Larry Richardson, Red Barker & the Blue Ridge Boys - (1965) - Blue Ridge > Bluegrass > Leon Morris & Associates - (1979) - Places And Friends I Once Knew > Leroy Mack - (1978) - Houndog Ramble > Leslie Keith - (1974) - Black Mountain Blues > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs & The Foggy Mountain Boys - (1961-12-03) - Mount > Vernon, VA > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1961-04-07) - Iron City, TN > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1957) - Foggy Mountain Jamboree > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1961) - Foggy Mountain Banjo > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1962) - Folk Songs Of Our Land > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1963) - Hard Travelin' > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1967) - Hear The Whistles Blow > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1967) - Sacred Songs > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - (1968) - Story of Bonnie and Clyde > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - A Boy Named Sue - LP Columbia C 33244 > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - Earl Scruggs- His Family and Friends-Nashville > Airplane > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - Greatest Hits - LP Columbia CS 9370 > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - The Complete Mercury Sessions > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs - The Versatile - CL 2354 > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs 1 > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs 2 > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs 3 > Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs 4 > Lester Flatt & Mac Wiseman - (1971) - Lester 'N' Mac > Lester Flatt - (1971) - Lester Flatt On Victor > Lester Flatt - (1972) - & Mac Wiseman - On the South Bound > Lester Flatt - (1972) - Kentucky Ridgerunner > Lester Flatt - (1973) - & Mac Wiseman - Over The Hill To The Poorhouse > Lester Flatt - (1974) - Before You Go > Lilly Brothers, The - (1964) - Bluegrass Breakdown > Lilly Brothers, The - (1964) - Country Songs (Vinyl) > list.txt > Little Roy Lewis - (1972) - Gospel Banjo > Little Roy Lewis - (1977) - Entertainer > Little Roy Lewis - (1981) - Super Pickin' > Little Roy Lewis - (1984) - The Heart Of Dixie > Lonesome Pine Fiddlers, The - (1961) - 14 Mountain Songs Featuring 5-String > Banjo > Lonesome Pine Fiddlers, The - (1974) - The Lonesome Pine Fiddlers > Lookout Mountain Boys, The - (1959) - Ride to the Moon > Lookout Mountain Boys, The - (1972) - Lookout Mountain Grass > Lost & Found, The - (197-) - The First Time Around > Lost & Found, The - (1976) - The Second Time Around > Lost & Found, The - (1978) - Third Time Around > Lost and Found, The - (1982) - Endless Highway > Lou Reid & Carolina > Lou Reid & Carolina - (2005) Time > Lou Reid & Carolina - Blue Heartache > Lou Reid & Carolina - Carolina, I'm Coming Home > Lou Reid - Terry Baucom & Carolina - Carolina Blue > Lou Reid - Terry Baucom & Carolina -Carolina Moon > Lou Reid - When It Rains > Lowell Varney - (1972) - Banjo Pickin' Boy From West Virginia > Lowell Varney - (1973) - & The West Virginia Boys - Goin' Back To West > Virginia > Lowell Varney - (1974) - Instrumental Sounds Of The Banjo Pickin' Boy From > West Virginia > Mac Wiseman - (1962) - Bluegrass Favorites > Mac Wiseman - (1966) - Bluegrass > Mail Pouch Express - (1979) - Timepiece > Mark O'Connor - (1975) - National Junior Fiddle Champion > Mark O'Connor - (1975) - Pickin' In The Wind (Vinyl) > McPeak Brothers, The - (1977) - The McPeak Brothers > McPeak Brothers, The - (1978) - Bend In The River > McPeak Brothers, The - (1983) - Makin' Tracks > Mountain Grass - (1978) - West Virginia My Home > Muleskinner Live -- Original Television Soundtrack > Nashville Grass w Lester Flatt - (1979) - Fantastic Pickin' > Neophonic String Band - (1977) - Neophonic String Band > New Deal String Band - (1966) - Down In The Willow > New Tradition, The - (1973) - New Tradition Live > New_Grass_Revival > New_Lost_City_Ramblers_The - Disc 1 > New_Lost_City_Ramblers_The - Disc 2 > Osborne Brothers 1956-1968 Bear Family Vol 1 > Osborne Brothers 1956-1968 Bear Family Vol 2 > Osborne Brothers 1956-1968 Bear Family Vol 3 > Osborne Brothers 1956-1968 Bear Family Vol 4 > Osborne Brothers, The - (1956-1958) - and Red Allen > Osborne Brothers, The - (1963) - Cuttin' Grass Osborne Brothers Style (MGM SE > 4149) > Osborne Brothers, The - (1965) - Voices In Bluegrass > Osborne Brothers, The - (1968) - Yesterday, Today & The Osborne Brothers (DL > 74993) > Osborne Brothers, The - (1970) - Ru-Beeeee > Oscar Brand - The Drinking Man's Songbook > Pat Burton - (1974) - We've Been Waiting For This > Patent Pending - (1985) - Troubles & Trials > Peter Wernick & Country Cooking - (1973) - Bluegrass Banjo > Pickin' On Creedence Clearwater Revival (1999) > Pine Hill Ramblers, The - (1972) - Further Up The River > Pinnacle Boys, The - (1975) - The Pinnacle Boys > Pony Express - (1972) - Pony Express > Red Allen & The Kentuckians - (1954-1969) - Classic Recordings > Red Allen - (1973) - & The Allen Brothers - Allengrass > Red Allen - (1973) - & The Allen Brothers - My Old Kentucky Home > Red Allen - (1975) - & The Allen Brothers - Red Allen's Favorites > Red and Murphy & Co - (1978) - Fast Picks and Hot Licks > Red Rector & Fred Smith - (1969) - Songs From The Heart Of The Country > Red Rector - (1973) - Ballads And Instrumentals > Red Rector - (1978) - Red Rector & Friends > Red Taylor - (1978) - Bluegrass Fiddle Taylor Made > Red, White & Blue (Grass) - (1974) - Pickin' Up! > Reno and Smilely 4CD set > RFD Boys, The - (1972) - RFD Boys No. 1 > Richard Greene - Ramblin [224 vbr] > Rick Allred & Kenneth Berrier - (1980) - Flat Burnin' > Roanoke - (1977) - Roanoke > Ron Mesing - (1978) - No Minors Allowed > Roustabouts, The - (1980) - Gone Ape > Roustabouts, The - (1980) - 2001 A Bluegrass Odyssey > Roustabouts, The - (1982) - Bluegrass Alive > Roustabouts, The - (1983) - Bruce & Bagels > Roy Acuff & His Smoky Mountain Boys - (1949) - Old Time Barn Dance (Square > Dances Without Calls) > Roy Clark & Buck Trent > Roy Clark & Buck Trent - (1975) - A Pair Of Fives (Banjos, That Is) > Roy Cobb & The Coachmen - (1984) - The Blue Side Of Bluegrass > Roy McGinnis & The Sunnysiders - (1973) - Beautiful Hills Of Kentucky > Roy McMillan and the High Mountain Boys - (1973) - Up in the High Country > Rual Yarbrough - (1968) - 5-String Banjo > Rual Yarbrough - (1972) - & The Dixiemen - Featuring James Bryan On Fiddle > Rual Yarbrough - (1976) - Just Me > Rual Yarbrough - (1978) - & The Dixiemen - Bluegrass From Dixieland > Sam Bush & Alan Munde - (1977) - Together Again For The First Time > Scottsville Squirrel Barkers, The - (1964) - Bluegrass Favorites (Crown CLP > 5346) > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1971) - Bluegrass Autumn > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1972-07-10) - Culpeper BGF, Culpeper, VA (SPPS) > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1973) - The Shenandoah Cut Ups > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1973-07-05,08) - 7th Annual BGF, Watermelon Park, > Berryville, VA > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1974) - Traditional Bluegrass > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1975) - Tribute To The Louvin Brothers > Shenandoah Cut-Ups, The - (1980) - Keep It Bluegrass > Skillet Lickers, The - (1927-1931) - Old Time Tunes > Sonny Osborne - (1952-1953) - The Early Recordings Of Sonny Osborne - Vol 1 > Sonny Osborne - (1952-1953) - The Early Recordings Of Sonny Osborne - Vol 2 > Sonny Osborne - (1952-1953) - The Early Recordings Of Sonny Osborne - Vol 3 > Sonny Terry - Chain Gang Blues (Everest FS 206) > Spectrum - (1981) - Live In Japan > Spectrum - (1981) - Opening Roll > Spectrum - (1982) - It's Too Hot For Words > Stanley Brothers, The - (1963) - On The Air > Stanley Brothers, The - (1963-12-xx) - John's Used Cars XMas Party, WBMD, > Baltimore, MD > Stanley Brothers, The - (1964) - Long Journey Home > Stanley Brothers, The - (1964-11-xx) - That Little Old Country Church House > Stanley Brothers, The - (1964-11-xx) - The Stanley Brothers Of Virginia Vol. 4 > Stanley Brothers, The - (1966) - John's Gospel Quartet > Stanley Brothers, The - Stanley Series, Vol. 2 #3 - (1956-08-07) - Shipps > Park, Morrisville, VA > Stanley Brothers, The - Stanley Series, Vol. 2 #4 - (1962-08-30) - Ash Grove, > Los Angeles, CA > Stanley Brothers, The - Stanley Series, Vol. 3 #3 - (1958-05-04) - Sunset > Park, West Grove, PA > Stanly Brothers > Steve Martin - (2009) - The Crow > Summer Wages - (1983) - Summer Wages > Summer Wages - (1987) - Can't Stop Now > Sunshine Bluegrass Boys, The - (1975) - Ripped Off > Sykes Boys, The - (1980) - Dixie Bound > Ted Lundy & Bob Paisley & The Southern Mountain Boys - (1976) - Slipping Away > Ted Lundy & Bob Paisley & The Southern Mountain Boys - (1978) - Lovesick & > Sorrow > Ted Lundy & The Southern Mountain Boys - (1972) - Ted Lundy & the Southern > Mountain Boys > Ted Lundy - (1973) - & Bob Paisley & the Southern Mountain Boys - The Old > Swinging Bridge > Tennessee River Boys, The - (1963) - Good Old Mountain Music > The Barrier Brothers - (1957-1958) - Pickin' And Singin' > The Pinnacle Boys - (1975) - Award Winning Pinnacle Boys > Tom McKinney - (1979) - There Is A Time > Tom Paley - (1976) - Hard Luck Papa > Tony Rice > Tut Taylor - (1975) - The Old Post Office > Tut Taylor - (1976) - Dobrolic Plectral Society > U.S. Senator Robert Byrd - (1978) - Mountain Fiddler > Upland Express - (1976) - Country Boy's Dream > V. A. - (1960) - Blue Ridge Mountain Music, Southern Folk Heritage Series > V. A. - Mountain Folks Song Concert Bluegrass Style > Valley Ramblers, The - (1967) - Strictly Bluegrass > Vern & Ray - (1970-04-26) - Demos > Vern & Ray - (1974) - Sounds From The Ozarks > Vern Williams & Ray Parks - (1966-01-28) - The Cabale, Berkeley,CA > Vernon Derrick - (1972) - Grass Country > Vic Jordan - (1973) - Pickaway > Vic Jordan - (1978) - Banjo Nashville > Virgil Shouse - (1977) - Bluegrass Fiddle Jam > Walter Hensley - (1964) - The 5 String Banjo Today > Walter Hensley - (1969) - Pickin' On New Grass > Walter Hensley - (1974) - 3 Days From Home > Wayne Stewart & Friends - (1979) - Aspen Skyline > Wendy Miller & Mike Lilly - (1973) - Solid Grass > Wendy Miller & Mike Lilly - (1975) - Country Grass > Whetstone Run - (1978) - Bluegrass > Whetstone Run - (1981) - Time Sure Flies > Whetstone Run - (1984) - No Use Frettin' > White Lightnin' - (1970) - Fresh Air > York County Boys, The - (1959) - Bluegrass Jamboree > ============== |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Janie Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:46 PM I may have stumbled across another good resource. http://books.google.com/books?id=g2jSdOR8aUkC&pg=RA1-PA139&lpg=RA1-PA139&dq=Richard+Cox+and+the+Harvesters&source=bl&ots=aZt-SL0jdb&sig=7H7En#v=onepage&q=Richard%20Cox%20and%20the%20Harvesters&f=false. Reading this thread sent me searching for information on Flatt & Scruggs and the Stanley Brothers television shows on WSAZ in Huntington WV in the early '50's - some of my earliest memories of music on television. The search led me to this book, which has a wealth of information on the radio and television broadcast history of Country, Old Time and Bluegrass music and musicians. From a reviewer at the Barnes & Noble site: I then went in search of "Saturday Night Jamboree", which was also a mainstay at our house when I was a little girl. There is only one extant tape (on youtube) of the show that had at least a ten year run, and that was 1960, so fairly late. Even so, when listened to the mix of music their relation to one another was apparent. I"m so pleased that this thread popped up again. Except for today's posts, it was all from before my time on Mudcat. |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Janie Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:48 PM Oops. Let's try to make that link again. Mountainer Jamboree: Country Music in West Virginia |
Subject: RE: Genealogy of Bluegrass From: Janie Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:49 PM And while I'm at the keyboard, how about an inane "100" |
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