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Lyr Add: The Next to Die in Texas

zonahobo 23 Jun 00 - 03:17 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM
Sorcha 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM
Kelida 23 Jun 00 - 01:44 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 23 Jun 00 - 01:30 AM
Brendy 23 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 12:58 AM
Sorcha 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM
Kelida 23 Jun 00 - 12:43 AM
Kelida 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM
Mbo 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM
Amergin 23 Jun 00 - 12:34 AM
katlaughing 23 Jun 00 - 12:21 AM
catspaw49 23 Jun 00 - 12:07 AM
Brendy 22 Jun 00 - 11:44 PM
Mbo 22 Jun 00 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 22 Jun 00 - 11:38 PM
Mbo 22 Jun 00 - 11:32 PM
Áine 22 Jun 00 - 11:25 PM
Brendy 22 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM
catspaw49 22 Jun 00 - 10:45 PM
katlaughing 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,Barry Finn 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jun 00 - 10:20 PM
Amergin 22 Jun 00 - 10:14 PM
catspaw49 22 Jun 00 - 10:06 PM
Áine 22 Jun 00 - 09:56 PM
kendall 22 Jun 00 - 09:04 PM
Áine 22 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM
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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: zonahobo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 03:17 AM

I'm with the beyond all doubt ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime group. I think as a society it's justified as self defense. I will not defend the right of a murderer to murder again. If someone was breaking down your front door intent on rape and murder of your whole household and you have "deadly force" at your disposal, do you defend your family? The system is flawed in many ways but I think many more criminals avoid punishment than truly innocent people get punished by the system. Most of the innocents (us) are much more likely to be victimized by criminals. Where do we want to spend what limited time we have? Should we be striving to protect and help the many more innocent, victimized by crime, members of our society or try to tear down what little protection we have.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM

But not everyone has those rights and the rich has more rights than those of us who break our backs for our next supper. No we shouldn't have to fight for them, but we do, because they are not freely given. Many are the unmarked graves that dot this free country of ours (USA) of those that fought for things that we take for granted today, things like the forty hour work week, overtime, medical care, and other benefits. Those murders were oftentimes sanctioned by the State. Think the Masters would have let us have them for no reason but just because? No their idea of giving their workers off time was the vacation they got at the end, when they died. Some things are worth fighting for.

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:50 AM

Maybe Mbo is right, Antarctica...........


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Kelida
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:44 AM

People shouldn't have to fight for anything, especially rights. EVERYONE should have the same rights. As far as I am concerned there is never any reason to fight for anything.

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:30 AM

Kelida, the only reason you have the freedom to say what you say, is because decent people stand ready todefend your rights by fighting others who would take them away. The world is not a nice place mates, sometimes you must fight evil. Yours,Aye. Dave ( who agrees with Spaw on this one )


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 01:08 AM

At least it's better than "Burn you bastard"

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:58 AM

I got one word.....Antartica.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM

Thank you Kelida. I do support the death penalty, but ONLY in extreme cases, and as spaw says, beyond all doubt. It is NOT a deterrent, but if it will keep one serial rapist/murderer from doing it again, that is the only reason for it's existence. Yes, it is barbaric, but so are some of the crimes that are "beyond all doubt". Not most, just some. And IF a Life Sentence meant that, I would support it, but it rarely does, now, because the jails are so overcrowded. The answer is not building more jails, or de-criminalizing things. I don't know what the answer is, either. Please don't jump on me, I am very, very ambivilent about this, and am not able to decide where the parameters are. I do know, I could not pull the switch.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM

Keli...I don't thnk, in the moment, that they think at all...good points in your posts, though.

There is a great oline community which started out urging Congress to "Censure & Move On", in reference to Clinton. www.moveon.org has gone on to work on other issues, as a grassroots movement of people from all sides of the fences. I wonder if they would pull together something on this. I think I will email the woman who heads it and see what she says. Here's soe info on what it is all about:

"What is MoveOn all about?

MoveOn is working to bring ordinary people back into politics. With a system that today revolves around big money and big media, most citizens are left out. When it becomes clear that our "representatives" don't represent the public, the foundations of democracy are in peril. MoveOn and the Internet will be a catalyst for a new kind of grassroots involvement, supporting busy but concerned citizens in finding their political voice.

What does MoveOn do?

When there is a disconnect between broad public opinion and legislative action, MoveOn builds electronic advocacy groups. Examples of such issues are impeachment, gun safety, nuclear disarmament, and campaign finance. Once a group is assembled, MoveOn provides information and tools to help each individual have the greatest possible impact. During impeachment, MoveOn's grassroots advocates generated more than 250,000 phone calls and a million emails to Congress. We helped Congress come to understand the depth of public opposition to impeachment."


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:48 AM

No, Kelida, getting caught tends to be the furthest thing from their minds. The other side of the coin of course is if this man had had money behind him he would never have seen the inside of a cage to begin with, whether he was guilty or not.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Kelida
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:43 AM

kat--of course they don't think that. They think: "Hey, I'll probably just get life, but I'll also probably get out in less than 20 years.

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Kelida
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM

As an ardent pacifist, I will never cease to wonder why anyone ever wants to kill anyone else for any reason. Violence against anyone is wrong, and the old saying "fight fire with fire" has never made any sense to me. I have another saying: "fighting for peace is like f***ing for virginity." However, I'm a little ambivalent about the death penalty because I'm also a libertarian (more or less). I don't consider anyone who can murder in cold blood to be HUMAN in any sense of the word--except genetics. Also, I think life imprisonment is a lot crueler than death. At the same time, most people convicted of murder ARE guilty. There are also way too many violent criminals that have been released and later imprisoned for a similar or worse crime. These people obviously are NOT rehabilitated, and are dangerous animals, and should be treated as such. Dogs, who are supposedly "lower life forms," are killed just for BITING people without causing irreperable harm. I don't see the justice in that, either.

I feel that in some cases the death penalty is warranted, but if there is another way to keep people off the streets PERMANENTLY than I am all for it. The biggest problem with life sentences is that they aren't usually served completely. The saddest thing is that hackers and theives can spend more time in jail than murderers and rapists.

I feel that the American justice system needs to be seriously reconsidered.

Peace--Keli


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:40 AM

"How long before the Judgement Day? How long before we cut the fat ones down to size? Before the barricades arise?!!!" Come my friends...if they mean to start something, let it begin here...we now draw a line...this far and NO FURTHER! We will win ourselves a home!!


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:34 AM

When the People start fighting back.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:21 AM

You are so right, Spaw. What criminal really stops to say, "Oh, wait, I'd better not kill that person 'cause then I might get the BIG NEEDLE and go bye-bye, too!"

Thsi country is so fucked up and schizo...on one hand we say most crimes are comitted at the height of some passion, then expect everyone to take time out during such passions to reason out the consequences. People don't care during the commission of a crime if their buddy got the needle or not...and too many people are innocent who are on death row.

For many years I corresponded with a Native American woman who was on death row in Maryland for a murder her ex-husband had committed; he lied and "turned state's evidence" and implicated her, even though she was not involved. He got off with a few years for robbery and she got the death penalty. Through a lot of letter-writing etc., we managed to get the then-governor to commute her sentence to life.

I lost touch with her almost seven years ago so I don't know what has happened to her, but it was NOT right that she was there and he was out. Hers was a bright and loving spirit with incredible patience and a will to keep herself from falling into deep despair, always helping those of lesser education who were her fellow inmates, tirelessly working to prove her innocence. The system was very prejudice against her not only for being a minority, but also because she was outspoken.

When will we see a change?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 12:07 AM

I have been in favor of the "8x8 & Crap in a Can" method for a long time. Okay, its inhumane, but a long way above the death penalty. I mean bare bones, basic, stuff and small accomodations. Frankly, the idea of spending the remainder of my life that way scares the hell out of me far more than the death penalty.

But I also don't believe that the death penalty is any real deterrent in most of the crimes where we ask for it. These aren't well thought out crimes in the main. Mostly we ask for the death penalty for vengeance as Brendy said. Ain't no way to call it civilized...period.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:44 PM

I hate to quote the Christian Bible, but didn't someone say once "Revenge is mine".
Or have you acquired delusions of grandeur, Mbo?

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:41 PM

Ok.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:38 PM

Hi Mbo, they probably do deserve it but let them rot for life so that the rest of us don't live in the shadow of the gallows. Barry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:32 PM

Then I suppose the bastards who dragged the African-American man behind their pickup truck don't deserve to die either?


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Áine
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:25 PM

Thank you all for reading my hastily scribbled words. I've got a tune now, also hastily written, knowing it's not the best I could do -- but, I had to do something . . . living in this state (and this country) and seeing the bodies pile up week by week just became too much even for me. It really pisses me off to feel so overwhelmed and powerless about this kind of thing.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 11:10 PM

I remember one Law Lord in the Upper House in Westminster say one time, that if he had tried The Birmingham Six, and the death penalty had have been fashionable (I don't think the death penalty has actually been revoked in England; could be wrong here, though), he would have "strung 'em up".

How many innocent people, roughly, get executed in the States every year?
The law of averages would have the figure fairly high, I'd say.

B.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:45 PM

Lest ANYONE get the mistaken idea that I in any way endorse the death penalty from my previous post, I don't. I can think of no more barbaric practice relating in any way to justice. There can be no justice when we allow these things to happen. Will we ever get the concensus to change? Cynical bastard that I am, I feel we are probably screwed. I've heard all the nonsense arguments about the reasons for state sanctioned killing and they are all utter and complete crap. But for those who DO believe, I'd love to hear their answer to "Guilt Beyond ALL Doubt" as I stated above.

For me, there is only sadness that this country cannot and will not see the truth. Let the shame be unrestrained.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM

Maybe it will backfire on the bastards, esp. on Bush who had the audacity to say, "May God bless Mr. Graham."

For crissakes, he was only 17, this happened 19 yers ago, among other factors....I nominate ole Dubya for ratbastard of the year....unbelievable, more and more we live in a nation of death...

Thanks, Aine, along with Shambles's song, today...pretty damn sad around here, but sure did need to be said.

Fawking bastards....


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:24 PM

I have to inject here about a man in Lowell, Mass (1/2 hr. north of Boston) who was on death row for 5 yrs. Our Own Mudcatter John Nolan a reporter for a New Hampshire newspaper (he's here from time to time) was to cover the story & being an ex copper from Glasgow smelt something amiss & being the dog that he is, he wouldn't let go of it till he made such a stink about what he was digging up about the whole mess that the case was heard again. The man was found to have been railroaded & the case was overturned & the fella turned loose & John trully stopped the man from going to the gallows. I may be off the mark with this a bit & maybe John will stop in here & give the full facts (though he may be a bit to modest), but I remember seeing the man's release & the stir about it, the only thing that's a bit fuzzy is John's relating his report to me. The trully awfull thing is that this is becoming more common & if getting rid of the death penalty saves one innocent then it's well worth it. Kind of like ants, if there's one in the house there's hundereds of others that you don't know about. Barry


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:20 PM

Thanks Áine. Killing in cold blood is a terrible thing. When it's tied in with politics it gets even sicker.

I'm not suprised most people say they back the death penalty in the States. That's probably still true in England. But I don't think it's ever been a vote winner in the same sort of way. At any rate there were a majority of politicians who were abolitionists, and they still got elected by peope who weren't.

But I read that the majority for the death openalty is smaller in the States than it used to be.

And I know there are honourable people who believe it should exist. But some of the cases it seems to be applied to seem really strange, and it seems pretty clear that a fair number of innocent people have been killed by the system.

I can remember as a boy at school the day when Derek Bentley was hung - there was a odd sort of excitement about it, because he wasn't all that much older than we were. He was pardoned later of course, many many years after he was killed.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:14 PM

Lovely and sad song, Aine. Had a bunch of things to say...but am now suddenly speechless....

Amergin


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:06 PM

I am with you and your lyric tonight Aine. I stated elsewhere that if we must continue with this barbaric method of "justice" then we need to change the system and make the standard "Guilt Beyond ALL Doubt." In capital, death penalty cases, beyond a reasonable doubt is not enough.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: Áine
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 09:56 PM

It is finished.


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Subject: RE: The Next To Die In Texas...
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 09:04 PM

The disheartening thing is that a recent poll shows that the majority of Americans now favor the death penalty. The politicians know where most of the votes are. Also, has anyone noticed how big business is on a crusade to influence the election by driving gas prices out of sight? Hey, they needed an issue, so, they created one. You listening Doug?


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE NEXT TO DIE IN TEXAS
From: Áine
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:55 PM

Just something that I had to get off my mind . . .

The next to die in Texas
Is a boy that had gone wrong
From doing drugs to dealing them
His list of sins was long

But is it right to kill a man
Without evidence of crime?
One pair of eyes looked through the dark
It was enough to kill in time

And the others who were there
Why weren't their voices heard?
I ask you, where is justice
When their evidence is buried?

The governor, he washed his hands
And spoke as Pontius Pilate
"I have no business with this deed,
"Just cross him off and file it.

"Don't bother me, I'm in a race,
"To lead this land to greatness,"
No thought of mercy for woman or man
Doomed to eternal darkness.

The next to die in Texas
Will be added to the list
Of humans who, it seems to me
Have been ground down into grist

And on us all, their destined fate
Could fall with circumstance
Can't we forgive, can we forget
And take a second glance?


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