Thought for the Day - July 6,00

Subject: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 10:59 AM

Sorry, got the day right, and the month wrong elsewhere:

In one of his always interesting articles, Mircea Eliade, the cultural anthropologist, gives his take on the dangers and powers of destruction. He notes that modern artists and architects have embarked many times on "sacred destruction" -- the destroying of worn out formal or sentimentalised structures -- with the hope of creating a new world. He points out that in earlier peoples there was this same instinct in ritual form: the periodic returning of the world to chaos and pre-order, because it had become "worn out". It must be all swept clean: the dead waste is choking out the new life.

He points out, of course, that dictators and radicals of all political stripes have caused great grief and millions of deaths in the past century in the creation of what the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia called "Ground Zero" -- wiping the slate clean of the past, which, freed of euphemism, means killing people, destroying history. But the impulse to clean the slate, to throw out all one's past and start again, seems to be archaic or sacred or have some kind of mythic power over us. Every time we clean house, or put a new sheet of paper on the easel, it pops up. It fights with the other impulse: to cherish, to sustain, to keep the memory alive, to find the seed in the existing flower. The worst part of the one leads to sheer destruction to no purpose, or to an all too grim purpose; the worst of the other leads to stifling reactionary shackles. The creative experience must probably be made up in part of finding the right rhythm between these forms of life. Certainly one thing lacking today is what archaic cultures had: forms of ritual that remind one that destruction is only partial, and embedded itself in continuing forms of cultural expression.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:37 AM

The Whittlesea Bear is a case in point. Click on the link for a picture, and an account of what happens on Plough Mondays in this Fenland town.

But what it doesn't mention is that after the "Bear" has paraded riound the town during the weekend, people gather at a place outside the town and certemonially burn it. (They let the man who wore it out for the burning - this isn't Wicker Man territory.)

The anarchist Bakunin wrote "the urge to destroy is also a creative urge".

In most circumstances I tend to the view that you should always try to incorporate what you are replacing into what you replace. I loathe the assumption by developers that the first thing you do with a site is to level all the buildings, or if you are refitting a shop, you gut it completely of all its fixtures and fittings.

I think, leaving aside rituals like the Whittlesea Bear where what is being destroyed was made for that purpose (like a bonfire or a firework) the creative aspect of destruction only comes where what is being destroyed is being repudiated rather than replaced, so that its destruction is a liberating action. And even then I think you should make use of the bits in some way.

(Incidentally, is this thread for July 6th 2000, or 1900? I was strongly in favour of turning the calenders back to 1900 on January 1st, and seeing if maybe this time we could get the 20th century right.)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 02:56 PM

Peter,

I trip over this phenomenon every time I do consulting work on organizational development, which basically means, CHANGING EVERYTHING WE ARE USED TO. In any change work, a key step is allowing the grieving of what has already passed away as the new thing began, and the rest of the things people will "lose" in pursuit of something new.

I try now to notice, whenever I can, when I am doing something for the last time, and to use that time to really savor not only the present experience one last time but also give thanks for the past enjoyments of it. And to say goodbye to it as I welcome the new.

~S~

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:35 PM

One of the meataphysial principles I ahve used a lot is the Law of Release and Attract. When I know I need to be done with something, be it object, relationship, job, or whatever, or, when I want to attract something to me, I try to remember to create an empty space. Not that my space is finite, but because I want to keep growing in consciousness and to do this, IMO, I have to elarnt o let go, then move on to the, hopefully, next level. Easier said than done on those days I am feeling sentimental or reluctant to toss out years of collected treasures, etc. But, whenever I take that action, I do create a vacumm for the Universe to flood with what might be next in a lesson for me.

As for society or government destoying architectural structures...it has ever been the plight of the Rocky Mountain West, at least where I've grown up, to want to embrace the brash and young notion of "shinier and newer is better." In Denver, alone, countless landmarks, the Tabor Opera House for one, were leveled in the name of progress; as we write, they are doing the same to the prairie east of Denver, building huge roadways for subdivision after subdivision of the million and more people they expect with no clue of what they will do for water.

It would be nice, imo, if we could get the larger group/society to make the same considerations we can/do in our own lives when contemplating making such sweeping changes.

Kevin, that was very interesting. Reminded me a little of the Burning Man Project, held every year in the Nevada desert, but with not nearly the history of the Straw Bears. When I used to be on the Greenpeace BBS, the sysop told me he was one of the first to organise it. Even back in 1993 he was really upset at how mainstream and popular it was becoming. The last year I heard from him, I think in 1994/5, he wasn't even going to attend anymore.

Good thoughts, as ever Peter. Thank you,

kat

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:42 PM

Change is never neutral. And renewal is not the same thing as change. Sometimes it requires change, but not always and not in everything. There's changes that are needed, and changes that need to be fought against.

Too often in my experience organisational change is actually about entrenching the underlying existing power structure. While people are running around worried about their future, or irritated at losing things they valued, or scurrying for opportunity in the "new" system, challenges to those in power can fade away somewhat, troublemakers can be eased out, and hard won advances by people lower down in the structure can be clawed back.

Here's a link to a relevant song, - though I'm surprised the DT has it as "the Gallant Duke of York", when I've never heard it in my life as other than "the Grand Old Duke". Either way, he knew that a bit of pointless manoeuvring is a good way of keeping the troops from getting restive.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 04:48 PM

McGrath and I just had the most delightful exchange in personal messages, and we decided to post/paste them here.

***

Kevin,

About the July 6 Thought thread.

Just to reassure you, the only kind of change work I do goes in the direction of empowerment from the bottom, up. I am a pernicious little virus of a change agent in that. It is surprising and delightful how really vulnerable most organizations are to change of that sort, when people are equipped and released properly. Oh there is always a balancing effort to inhibit the resulting movement forward.... but stupidity, even in a corporately embodied sense, is always very vulnerable to real people making real leadership moves when least expected and AS least expected.

Not saying there is not real evil and crap and powerplay that goes on. Just wanting you to know that it is vulnerable to real, applied power.

~S~

***

Susan,

My remarks weren't aimed at you at all, and I've been trying to change things all my life myself.

It's just that I've become increasingly aware of how "change" can be hijacked by the wrong people with the wrong changes, and people can be manipulated into thinking that almost anything labelled as change must be accepted, with spurious word bites like "Make friends with Change."

So more power to your "pernicious" elbow.

Kevin

***

Kevin,

Oh I didn't feel aimed at. Just felt like a word on this might be in order. I know you try to change things. I bet they change most when you aren't even trying, just because you are being yourself.

That song [of yours] about the spring, in the drought. Real change can be like that, eh? Sometimes.

We have a spring here where everyone goes (not really everyone, I exaggerate) when their wells go dry, and where many of us go for regular water-fetching just because the home water tastes bad. It is quite an active gushing even when the rest of the county is bone dry.

I noticed too that under the pounding fall of water from this spring is roadbed rock that has been ground finer than gravel all the way to rocksand, amid other pieces of rock in various stages of water-grinding. When I see this now, I think of one dear curmudgeonly friend who admits that being loved well and persistently appears to have cracked him open in all the right places. And you know, I think your songs are just as pernicious as me, as water, and as love, and I bet many hearts wrapped way too tight in bands of bondage have cracked long after the listener went away, long after you packed up the gear and headed off home after singing.

I wish you water in plenty, and change in full measure where there is need of change. And I thank you for songs that have begun their work in me, as well.

And I'm sorry now we did not have this exchange in the thread. You can put it there by pasting if you like. Maybe people need to hear it.

~S~

***

Susan,

Glad you like that song, it's one of my favourites. It came after I'd seen the films Jean de Florette and Manon des Sources, though the image of the water in hiding is the only thing I took from them.

And yes, by all means copy the messages across if you like-- I've got to log off now, and do things.

Kevin

###

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:04 PM

That was smart work Praise!

That song we were talking about was on a tape I sent Praise a copy of. I haven't stuck the words on my website yet, but I probably will before long.

I might even stick a RealAudio file of me singing it, now I've more or less worked outb the technology. Here is a first draft to my DIY guide to putting songs on the web using RealAudio - which is primarily there so I can remind myself how it's done, because I forgot the last time I did it, and had to work it out again.

That was thread drift, and I'm trying to think of some way of turning it back into the rightful current of the thread.

Well I suppose one thing is, when you make up a song you normally find (I normally find) that the words keep on altering time and time again before the final version comes; and that's only provisionally final, because songs alter again over time as you sing them.

And if you are lucky enough to make a song that passed into wider circulation, and other people sang it, it'll keep on changing - and if the folk process kicks in, it will turn into another song entirely, or maybe a family of songs. And the later versions can effectively extinguish the earlier versions.

And that's all about how the process of creation involves destruction. Deep down, maybe we're all amoebas.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: bob jr
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 09:55 PM

reminds me of that old saying by winston churchill "never in the course of human history has so much been said about so little by such a bunch of assholes"

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:40 AM

Do you think these up all by yourself, bob, or do you send away for them?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: bob jr
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:01 AM

that was winston churchill i just got the words mixed up i guess but no i dont send away for em i am just having some fun sorry if you dont like it i can stop if you want

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM

No, don't stop, bob, it's funny...

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - July 6,00
From: bob jr
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 12:59 AM

thanks amergin you and i got off on the wrong foot i think i somehow got the impression you didnt like me or my silly postings but i will say that i have had a couple of thread s here that have gotten me the answers i was looking for and i really think this is a great site only two little problems i encounter 1)overly pompous smug little minded people with lots to say who are too pc by half and dont realize that narrowmindeness is one step from fascism (at least emotional fascism anyhow) 2) alot of folks bashing bob dylan which i just dont understand he is kinda talented but people say nonsensical things like "he cant sing" or "he steals from tradition" it could be argued that his hero woody guthrie had the same two problems but i guess he is sainted oh well when bob dies then he willl be thought of more fondly (witness the martydom of john lennon)

Subject: looking back nat king cole
From:
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 08:50 AM

this may have been by other people may have been country starts looking back over my life or at least those are some words thank you in advance grace