Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star

Subject: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:36 PM

Saturdays Toronto Star had an article about Bob Dylan and Brian Wilson as they are both playing here this week.

It opened with a statement something like: When rating the great American songwriters of the last 40 years, these two have to be considered number one and two.

I have no problem with Dylan as #1, but Brian Wilson #2???? I think he was a jingle writer whose lyrics were meaningless, his melodies were often just slightly altered variations of his other works.

This statment really bothered me. It is a slap in the face to Willie Nelson, John Prine, Rickie Lee Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Kris Kristoffersen, Willie Dixon, Tom Waits and many, many other fine writers.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 05:43 PM

Well, I don't know about Brian Wilson ( I can take or leave most of his stuff), but Dylan is certainly high on the list. Stephen Sondheim is widely acknowledged to be the greatest American songwriter of the last 40 years (and gets my vote).

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 06:10 PM

Depends on exactly what they meant by #2. :-o
(Probably someone just being a little overexcited. Brian Wilson - Yikes!!!)

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 07:06 PM

Brian Wilson is a great arranger and record producer, probably one of the most important ever, and Paul McCartney is very open about acknowledging his influence(and Paul is not one who gives out much praise) with Pet Sounds, on the concept and execution of Sgt Pepper. Pet Sounds pretty much determined what recorded music has sounded like ever since.

His compositions are amazingly sophisticated music that sound very simple. A lot of people never could get past the seeming simple mindedness of many of the Beach Boys songs to hear the music, which is kind of a shame.

Anyway, if Dylan was the major influence on all lyricists that followed him, Brian Wilson was just as much an influence on the way that the music actually sounded--

If you could combine the Dylan approach to lyrics with the Brian Wilson sound, you would really have something--and that is what everyone has tried to do since--

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 08:53 PM

Ah, like Gilbert and Sullivan! But only one of them got the knightship, right? And did the Star really specify songwriters?

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 10:39 PM

And one of them was gay--but that belongs on another thread--

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 10:55 PM

Ridiculous is an understatement. If you were talking about most INFLUENTAL songwriter, a case could be made for Dylan (and George M Cohan, John Phillips Sousa, etc.)

BEST Songwriters? I'd bet a million bucks that the reviewer has never even heard of 3/4 of the songwriters that get mentioned on Mudcat. Unless you're a Beach Boy fan, you'd be hard pressed to name more than five or six Wilson songs.

Just silly and shows total ignorance. Now the KEY question is how many Star readers, would be able to name ten quality songwriters period? Very few I'll bet.

Rick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 11:09 PM

If there was a #1, I would be inclined to award it to Tom Waits - especially as Time is the song I play when ever I am feeling sad.

Thinking of Tom Waits, I am surprised how few people in my part of the UK have even heard of him.

Jon

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 11:13 PM

I meant to say have never heard of him.

Jon

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 11:24 PM

Well thank gawd..........I thought perhaps the "Star" had printed the unfounded rumor that the Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed was relocating to Toronto. Let me state for the record that the CIA has renewed the lease on the current property in Montana for another 25 years.

Spaw (sorry Steve)

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: bob jr
Date: 17 Jul 00 - 11:54 PM

um i am not a big brian wilson fan by any stretch of the imagination and i can name twenty of his songs without a problem ,carilone no.god only knows/good vibrations/surfer girl/i just wasnt made for these times/girl dont tell me/shut down/surf city/little deuce coup/in my room/heroes and villians/do it again/wendy/let him run wild/help me rhonda/please let me wander/warmth of the sun/carlifornia girls/she knows me too well/darlin/409 um thats got to be twenty at least.. he made pretty good records and he had hits during the english invasion like "i get around" so i think he was pretty good and as far as popular music goes he has got to be up there in terms of american writers (you really cant call tom waits a pop writer how about a quaint anacronism that used to be intersting?)i think the article was trying to say (and i got this be reading the damn thing and i admit it was stupid as all get out) that hey bob and brian are both in town this week (bob tommorow night brian on thursday) it really wasnt a serious article just a page filler (lots of photos) my friends and i had a good laugh at it because it was almost like a seperated at birth article as in here is how to spot the differances between the two, it was in this manner that it was an atrocious piece but the stars music section screws up just about anything they write about so par for the course for them .

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:51 AM

Interesting thoughts on Tom Waits, bobjr - I guess we have to let time run on a bit further before we can be sure of your assessment.

Jon

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 01:59 AM

Little surfer, little one, made my heart come all undone ... -- sheer genius.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 02:07 AM

Yeah.....well.......Anyone who could wax poetic about the Chevy 409/348 boat anchors doesn't know jacksquat about engines.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: bob jr
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 03:53 AM

well one more note on tom waits it took him six years to release one of his most boring albums in a long time ..and the one before that was that the black rider one? i put that on at work (i work in a music store) when i want folks to get out works like a charm or i resort to yoko ono plastic band!!

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 04:01 AM

bob jr, I am not a Tom Waits expert but 2 of my brothers are big fans. I have mixed feelings about his stuff - some I love some I hate. My favourite albums that I have heard are the Early Years and Rain Dogs. The one that bores me to tears is Blue Valentine. Even though I do not like all of the stuff of his that I have heard, I reckon the guy is a musical genius.

Jon

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 07:57 AM

Tom Waits is a genius on the edge of lunacy. But for my (insignificant) money, Guy Clark is the favorite American songwriter. Unlike Dylan (or Waits for that matter) you always know exactly what the hell he's talking about, cause he makes a picture you can see, and fills it with people you know.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:02 AM

Well, as much as I hate these sorts of lists and comparative ratings, I think the paper had a point. Brian Wilson is (or at least was) a musical genius; his music was incredibly sophisticated, adventurous, and deep, but it always fell easily on the ears, so people didn't always recognize the incredible quality and craftsmanship. I would not indulge in this sort of exercise generally, but if pushed, I couldn't come up with better choices than these (given the parameters -- American songwriters of the past 40 years).

I also like Tom Waits and Guy Clark, but their handful of truly "great" songs is comparatively small. I would not place either in the same league as Brian Wilson. My choice for #3 would likely be Steve Earle (which may generate more debate, I fear).

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:35 AM

The interesting this is that if you go back only 10 more years (from the 40 year mark in the article), the list changes completely: Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Lerner and Lowe, Leonard Bernstein, Rodgers& Hammerstein, Frank Loesser, and about 5 others (Johnny Mercer, Billy Strayhorn, Duke Ellington, etc. all who were still going strong) who push these guys out of the list without breaking a sweat.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: SDShad
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 09:59 AM

Good of you to mention Steve Earle, Whistle. I'm surprised that I'm the first to mention one of Steve's greatest heroes, friends, mentors and influences: Townes Van Zandt.

But my money's on Guy Clark: Homegrown Tomatoes, L.A. Freeway, Rita Ballou, The Cape, Texas 1947, Desperadoes Waiting for a Train, Nickle for the Fiddler...great songs all.

Chris

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 11:43 AM

Steve Earle pays due deference to Guy Clark and Townes Van Zandt (there's some quote about "Townes is the greatest songwriter in the world, and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and tell him so!"). I think he's better than both of them. But these sorts of "who's the best?" discussions are pretty silly, so I should probably stop before I get in any deeper.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 12:04 PM

Perhaps the reference to Brian Wilson as Number 2 refers to the smell that his bubble-gum-pop songs bring to mind.

Paul.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Jul 00 - 11:11 PM

Ummmm....Bruce Springsteen?

Look I'm trying NOT to be a snob and name people like Bob Coltman, Jerry Rasmussen, Joe Hall and Craig Johnson. Brian Wilson couldn't carry their pens though.

Not likely that any of them will be appearing at a stadium in the near future though.

Rick (ducking)

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:20 AM

Rick, You're a nice guy, a good musician, and have demonstrated fair taste in other areas, so you slide on this one--Though I am curious as to who you might think writes better vocal harmonies than Brian---

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:33 AM

M. Ted, calling Rick "a good musician" is like calling the Titanic a boat. I doubt that there is a better instrumentalist anywhere. Probably some as good, but not many better.

The only problem I have with the article as described is that they talk about Wilson as one of the greatest SONGWRITER's. As a crafter of lyrics he was mediocre at best. As a producer and arranger, he was at the top of his game during his era. And the influence of his arrangements are still felt in pop/rock and even some crossover country today. He certainly was great at what he did, but "#2 greatest songwriter ever"? Not even close. He isn't even in the Top 10 of his own time. IMO.

Mick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:44 AM

Could we like try the Queen Mary as a simile rather than the Titanic -- though likening Rick to the Queen Mary brings its own boatload of problems.

Interesting no one has mentioned Paul Simon, who would certainly be higher on my list than Brian Wilson, and most anyone else. And then of course there is Chuck Berry..... For sheer lyric verve! yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:59 AM

Right there with ya, Peter. Let's call him King Mary. Has a nice lyric ring in keeping with this thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 10:21 AM

Now am I in trouble because I "flamed" Rick by calling him a "good musician"?

Sorry if I offended you Rick, but I was just thinking of the old Duke Ellington story, someone was pressing him to a hire "the most incredible jazz pianist I have every heard!!" and Duke said, "Yes, but is he any good?"

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 10:31 AM

Hey M. Ted, don't let these stupid threads lately make ya edgy. I meant that tongue in cheek. Sorry if it came off different. Those of us who love this guy get a little protective. I am enjoying your comments on this, and think this could be a super thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:14 AM

I'm not fond of these "best" lists also. But give credit where credit is due - Brian Wilson is one heck of a talented guy. One of the things I find amazing about him is that all of the early records that had such an incredible sound - up to and including "Good Vibrations" - were all recorded in MONO due to Brian being deaf in one ear. The story/rumor I hear was that he was slapped upside the head by his father after someone left a pile of dog crap on his dinner plate.

I love the guys music. One of the best of the surviving acid casualties

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:17 AM

I know you meant well, Big Mick--I just get in these moods where I take everything the wrong way--I grew up in Lansing, and when the sun isn't out, everything looks bad to me--

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:38 AM

Calm down folks! We know it's a bit edgy these days...but like gall stones they'll pass. mTed, you can joke around with me any day of the week. I'm just very glad you're back! Mick's being kind (as his his nature ALL the time) but the truth of the matter is, while most were raising kids, yours truly was being a lazy sonufabitch and messing around with guitars and banjos.....a lot! I wouldn't have found the time to find those notes if I'd been puttin' kids through school.

Ahh, vocal arrangements! Wilson is suberb. Please don't get me wrong, I think Brian was (and maybe is) a tremendously effective songwriter, I'd put him in my top 25 anyday. I think Peter has nailed it though. I'd forgotten about Paul Simon. Who has combined interesting lyrics, good melodies, AND huge commercial success better than he? He shoots up my list to about number 5.

Hard to top Gershwin though.

Rick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:16 PM

Harlan Howard, Felice and Boudreaux B., Leiber & Stoller, just for the hell of it.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:17 PM

No doubt Simon wrote some nice things--I have gotten a creepy feeling about him in recent years, though, what with hearing Art Garfunkel talk about how strange it was to sing "So Long, Frank Lloyd Wright", that being his nickname, and knowing that it meant that sooner or later, Paul was going to drop the axe on him, and was shoving his face in it, before hand-

And it is all in fun, Rick, it's gotta be fun, we aren't making any money at this, are we?

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 12:24 PM

On somebody's bio thing on Paul Simon he talked about "writing to rhythms" which amazed me, as I have always thought of him as a wordsmith first. He talked at length about being fascinated with a pattern, a rhythm, and the rest followed from that.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 01:18 PM

interesting how 'most' respondants to a thread like this center on their evaluations of 'the most FAMOUS and widest SELLING' songwriters of the past 'XXX' years...as if hype and mass media were critical factors in determining quality....*sigh*

At least Rick mentioned Craig Johnson...(just as he noted in another thread he mentioned guitarists who were not 'famous', but were beyond belief in their abilities..)

yes, it IS hard to move beyond what the popular press and publicity machines tell you is #1, etc,. but WOW there is good stuff out there that never makes the charts.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: GUEST,Goodman
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:28 PM

Steve Goodman equal to Dylan; that #2 fella doesn't come close!!!

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 02:34 PM

I think that for the most part people who come here are not particularly preoccupied with who or what seems to be popular at any given time--I certainly would be hardpressed to name the three or four songwriters who are writing "hits" today, and I certainly couldn't tell you who the hot new guitarists are on the record charts (if there are any).

Mostly, we respond with some sort of general indignation when a list of "The Ten Greatest McGuffins" comes out, and either overlooks nine good ones, or includes all the ones that make us sick.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 03:05 PM

I think the McGuffin in Vertigo was the best ever. None of the rest ever came close.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:13 PM

I kinda like a good Egg McGuffin in the morning.

PS - The DeNiro movie "Roden" had a good McGuffin also

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:17 PM

Hey Bill, I forgot. You're another fan of Craig's. Man, what a way with music that guy has. Coltman too. Guess what? Sandy Paton turned me on to both of them! No surprise there.

Rick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 05:24 PM

Liked them all, though, Peter!!

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 09:07 PM

Well, Brian Wilson is a hell of a lot more talented than I'll ever be, so I respect very much what he has done. But with all the name dropping, it seems to me that John Prine has to be in there somewhere.

Lyle

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: bob jr
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 10:42 PM

well i am gonna throw myself in the deep end and say for defining an entire genre of music (albeit surf music) for just about everyone (yeah yeah i know dick dale was more authentic but thats not my point) brian wilson deserves some credit ,i reread the article and it uses the word "arguabley" and hence we have the arguement ,number two of the last 40 years (so thats 1960 and gershwin was by then well and truly dead) and i think its a valid (but very debatable and highly subjective) number two , chuck berry ? maybe in the fifties but my ding a ling doesnt make a top ten list for me anywhere,ditto for most of lieber and stollers 60's output (best stuff really was the 50's for them even though i love their drifters stuff) and paul simon? i liked him better when he was a songwriter and not a conduit

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Bluebeard
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 11:44 PM

Brian Wilson wrote some of the most beautiful melodies I have ever heard. Mike Love and other collaborators wrote most of the lyrics. Your music may sound like shite to me! It is impossible to say just who were the "best" songwriters in the last 30/40 years, or whenever.

Suffice to say, Bob Dylan and Brian Wilson have contributed greatly to modern music.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM

Well said, Bluebeard. We should really get beyond all this "who's the best?" thinking, and just appreciate everyone's contributions.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 11:34 AM

Bob Jr. makes a very good point. As a melody writer, Brian was superb. Didn't know about the other lyric collaborators though.

I'm not a huge fan of his but does anyone think Springsteen rates up there though?

Rick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:00 PM

From the Toronto Star this seems like an insult to their homeboy Gordon Lightfoot

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:13 PM

HEY, GUEST, GREATEST AMERICAN SONGWRITER.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 08:17 AM

I think Springsteen is a good, sometimes great, songwriter. And a hell of a performer. I look at Springsteen as having a strong combination of talents, songwriting being one of them. Taking songwriting alone, I might rate him in the top 10 (same parameters -- American, past 40 years). If I rated people at all, that is...

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 09:14 AM

Nobody's mentioned JJ Cale yet. His songs have been covered by absolutely everybody, and are among the best known songs in North America. You should really listen to his original versions though; WAY better than the covers.

Paul.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 09:54 AM

Great Point Paul S.

Eric Clapton should phone J.J. every morning and thank him for making him millions by covering Cocaine and After Midnight.

Rick, I guess you woul have to include Springsteen although I for one could never see what all the fuss was about. And Born in the U.S.A is one of the most repetitive, boring dirges I've ever heard.

Saw Bob on Tuesday. He was great, the band was rock solid. Too bad I was surrounded by idiots who felt that a Dylan (or any) concert was the place to talk all night. It was really annoying.

Here's the set list.

Duncan And Brady (acoustic) Song To Woody (acoustic) (Larry on mandolin) Desolation Row (acoustic) Love Minus Zero/No Limit (acoustic) Tangled Up In Blue (acoustic) (Bob on harp) This World Can't Stand Long (acoustic) (Larry on mandolin) Country Pie Lay, Lady Lay Gotta Serve Somebody She Belongs To Me Drifter's Escape (Bob on harp) Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat (encore)

Things Have Changed Like A Rolling Stone Don't Think Twice, It's All Right (acoustic) (Bob on harp) Highway 61 Revisited Blowin' In The Wind (acoustic)

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:09 AM

Well, go figure -- I think Born In The USA is a tremendous song. There is the problem that people think they know what it's all about before they really listen to it, more or less assuming that Springsteen is a rock'n'roll Sylvester Stallone. But that's their loss.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: bob jr
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 10:46 PM

hey rick

yeah i like springsteen as well ,my problem with these lists is that i like different music at different times for different reasons so i never think so and so is the best ever but if i was forced to come up with a top ten songwriters i would include bruce springsteen and probably include lou reed as well if it included canadians i would add j.r. robertson and gordon lightfoot but as for others i would take way to long to think about it to write it in one day i mean i like townes van zandt and missippi john hurt and some other folks mentioned above so who do you leave out? and why leave anyone out? to hell with top ten lists as paul simon wrote one mans cieling is another mans floor ....

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:09 PM

Yah Bob jr. I change my mind on this every day. Now if they'd asked (DON'T) for a list of the top 200, I could get 'em all in. Guy Clark along with Townes.

Rick

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: bob jr
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 11:22 PM

and if you remove the time frame thing then you have to consider hank williams cole porter the gershwins it just gets insane.....

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: GUEST,Owlkat
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 03:30 AM

Hi, Keep in mind that this statement was published in a Toronto newspaper, and all will be made clear. Now snatch the damn pebble from my hand,Grasshopper. I gotta go pee. Owl.

Subject: RE: Ridiculous statement in Toronto Star
From: bob jr
Date: 22 Jul 00 - 09:28 PM

well i dont go much for toronto bashing as that is where i live but it could just as easily come from usa today or some such mainstream newspapers coverage of the music scene generally blows...