The Truth IS Out There - Now

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 07:14 PM

I don't have a lot of time to frame a full answer and I may say more tomorrow.

Right now I think the most I can say accurately is that none of the flames themselves did me a bit of harm either as they occurred or as I thought about them later. The reason for this is that they were based so completely on stereotypes having little to do with me, that they just were amusing. (I mean, exclusively, the ones directed at me, and I do not know about nor understand the depths other people were driven to.)

So I was aiming for actual communication with TTCM, and until one particular day came when he went right over the edge, we had almost begun to have that capacity. But then the flames got really toxic toward other people, and I found it necessary to rebuke essentially blasphemous posts... it just is not OK in my framework to stand by and not address that. So there is another regret. I would have preferred the real communication.

But there were two really bad days. And they hurt me in a place I never displayed here, not attacks on my Christianness at all, as had been most of the flames.

The first was when someone whose past Mudcat experiences (pre-February, when I joined) are still a complete mystery to me, lashed out at me entirely unsolicited in a personal message over something that was of absolutely no concern to that individual. And I will never know if that was actually from the signed sender or if someone had hijacked a cookie, and the damage has not yet been undone so it makes any sense.

The other, much more hurtful, was when someone ELSE, a new friend, who had been taking the brunt of the flames for a long time, jumped with both feet inbto a misunderstanding with me in the personal pages that was so unexpected, given the lovely start we'd made, that I just cried for hours. And that is still not cleared up either.

So the problem I am having is that here is someone who wants to apologize, in part to me personally, but who does not yet seem to understand the real nature of the damage done. IMNSHO, the real damage was how the bad atmosphere came between people who meant to be friends, or at least not enemies.

And you know what-- TTCM would learn more about that, and have a better chance of growing from it as a person, if he stayed right here, as himself, openly, and grew himself some positive relationships, and addressed the damages within those. I invite you to that, with myself.

So I have decided that the best thing I can do is continue communicating with Michael K, outside the Forum, if he is interested in that. I remember finding him a pretty interesting fellow when I first joined, and I will go see what sort of personal messages we exchanged cuz I think there were a few.

And you know, apologies and catharsis and all these refelctions from all of us are nice, but we do not actually know who TTCM was for sure. We could spend another couple of months going around and around--- "No, it was ME!" "NO!! ME!!!" "It was HIM!" "Sometimes it was...... YOU!!!" Good Lord. Re-read The Crucible. I just don't need to go there, does anyone else? I mean, we can play detective, but what difference would it really make? The only direction that ever really makes any sense is forward, even if the wounds are still oozing. Yes, sometimes we have to retrace our steps to get to a solid fresh starting point, but then do we not need to head on forward?

I will say it again-- There is just no substitute for really getting to know another human being. And I will add, this time, that I cannot recall that effort ever having been wasted effort, no matter the result.

~S~

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 08:29 PM

It's just occurred to me - earlier in the thread I reacted about being called "a bully" by harpgirl, and there were a couple more exchanges with oter people apparently involving her.

But for all I know it wasn't her at all. And even if someone comes on posting as GUESTharpgirl and says it was, there's no way of knowing it's not some joker libelling her when she's not around the 'Cat for some personal reason.

And that's the damage this kind of stuff does to us. That, and trapping people into carrying a grudge. Life's heavy enough at times already without carrying grudges as well. Last grudge broke the camel's back.

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: GUEST,Praise, I logged out and no cookie just now
Date: 19 Jul 00 - 08:46 PM

But Kevin,

All you need to do is stick with being yourself and doing what is right according to what you know is true. The rest rolls off, in time, if you just do that. Or there'd be no surviving what people do to each other (in the name of whatever they think they are doing)!

And this is supported by the gift of discernment, which you can always lean on too.

Funny, I am here as Guest, etc, but I bet you know it's me. Because we have taken the trouble to get to know each other just a bit, and thus we sometimes can speak to (and sometimes can hear) each other's hearts.

~S~

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: flattop
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 12:55 AM

The truth is always out there somewhere but we only get glimpses of it as we stumble around in the dark. Yes Michael, I was wrong in much of my speculation. You fooled me too.

I was never a target but I still feel a little crazy from trying to play Where's Waldo? Maybe just foolish, not crazy. I can only try to imagine how ill at ease the people who were stalked felt. They have my full sympathy.

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 03:27 AM

I'm posting part of what I wrote Michael K in a pm, mostly because it is important to me to recognize in myself the main reason I reacted so violently to ttcm's posts. Had I been 'disinterested', he couldn't have upset me.

"You never hurt me but I was terribly upset at the barrage of nasty messages you addressed to other members- until I stopped reading posts by any flamers. Which means, of course, that what I was upset by was my response not the impetus itself. We all want to think well of ourselves and when we flare in outrage we can't.

In my opinion, the worst effects of what you have done (other than your own loss of personal friendships) are the resultant loss of trust on the 'Cat and the role modeling and encouragement you have given other mean spirits.

I've now read all the posts submitted by ttcm, et al, and most of the posts by Michael K; I hope you stay. As Michael K, you have valid opinions, and in time this episode will be forgotten or absorbed into the fabric of the Mudcat. In the meantime, your voice will be a reminder to us that we all need forgiveness from time to time.

Best wishes. Ebbie"

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Escamillo
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:09 AM

LABEL END_RANT ;
I'm relatively a newcomer, and am grateful to Mudcatters for their help on music and their invaluable friendship. But some things upset me (rarely), so please let me write this as a program:
IF NOT WILLING_TO_READ_THIS THEN GOTO END_RANT ;

from Michael K:
1)(For the record, I have not been involved in any flaming activity whatsoever in the past several weeks, so anything that HAS been going on here in the interim should not be attributable to me.) You can of course think whatever you like.
- Yes, I'd like to think that ONCE you take the role of an anonymous saboteur, you are NOT entitled to say what SHOULD be attributable to you and what should not. It was your choice.

2)Frankly it never ever occurred to me, that one person could have such a profound influence on the tone and atmosphere of this Forum, (and I do not want to carry the notoriety and responsibility of it any further.)
- No, you are not so notorius, and this matter is far from the concept of responsibility.

3)perhaps it was a very misguided superiority complex ridiculing lesser talented but capable people...
- I'd never seen here very talented people qualifying the talent of the others, except you, who must be exceptionally talented, I guess.

4)who helped and continue to contribute to the overall anarchy and morose nature of this Forum. I am probably responsible and repentant for much of this as well.
- Who told you that this forum has any anarchic and morose nature ? You just read the personal attacks ?

5)There is enough garbage on here already. (no pun intended.)
- Could it be yours ?

To the other guests: I know that many newsgroups are full of shit. That's why I'm here and nowhere else. Who casts the first stone ? Could be lots of people including myself, who NEVER had a behaviour like that you assume as granted. But we will not cast any stone, just will keep singing and playing and talking about music, humor and many subjects, including this.
Michael K, in your place, I would change my name, enter as a new identity (never more as guest) and behave as an adult. In a short time you´ll be enjoying this place as much as most Mudcatters do. But that's ME in your place. I'm not who can give you any advice.
Sorry for any grammatical errors.
END_RANT :
Un abrazo - Andrés (who once was losing trust in this place but put his little brain and heart to work)

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 07:49 AM

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread. Train wreck fascination I guess.

Lacking any new thoughts I'm going to repeat something I said many months ago when some jackass was falsely posting as katlaughing.

What gives the Mudcat value to many of us is that it is not a "virtual community". It is a REAL community made up of real flesh and blood people with opinions, friendships, dislikes, and feelings. There is no other kind of community, in my opinion.

People who post anonymous bizarre graffiti, cowardly personal attacks, or who hijack the identities of others, if confronted usually mutter about cliques, and how people should consider postings on their own merits, not because of who said them. Usually these mutterings are integrated with more personal attacks, which makes it hard to take them seriously as advocacy of "the disembodied idea".

For me, at least half the value of any posting is in knowing who it comes from; their location, background, musical tastes and other personal information they have chosen to reveal. Because there are no disembodied ideas; if I want something like that I'll look in an encyclopedia. I feel I've made friends here and want that opportunity to continue for all.

There is an extraordinary freedom of expression here, due to Max's hands-off philosophy. I think that's great and it passes the responsibility on to the users of the forum to do so in a civil manner. Own up to your own opinions and you can have just about any you like.

Michael I'm not about to waste my time looking up what TTCM said six months ago...but it took some guts to come clean here. (Wish a couple others would do so, or just get lost.) Max has officially proclaimed you "Rat Bastard of the Week" (the Week, not the month or year) and remarked that he'll forgive but not forget.

I think you need to do some time in the wilderness. Go now and sin no more. Maybe come back later. (I did like your contributions to "gigs from hell", and as an Ontario musician I have a sneaking suspicion I have met you sometime).

Willie-O

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:02 AM

A person's words ought to improve upon silence. (But go ahead, give it a shot) Tabla Raza. Fortunato

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: GUEST,Rat Bastard
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 01:07 PM

You may be expecting too much of mankind, unFortunato.

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 08:16 PM

Michael,

If you're still reading this:

- you fucked up (haven't we all)

- you had the guts to admit it (lots of us don't)

- I'd be more than happy to meet you again in this virtual place, or in person (you've done nothing really bad)

I hope you'll come back

To those who think Michael has somehow ruined this site forever, I'll quote McGrath: "Lighten up"

Ed

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: GUEST,Missing In Action
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 08:47 PM

Moonchild and Katlaughing both responded with real emotion it is true. What should tell you that the problem with Michael K. might amount to something more than a little flaming fun is the obvious absence of postings here by Rick Fielding, Catspaw, Peter T., Bonnie, and some others named by Michael K.

Take notice before you decide to "lighten up."

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:06 PM

Michael K, you deserve a lot of respect for that brave posting at the top. And as you may have anticipated, it could be that it will be the devout souls who preach forgiveness who turn out to be least forgiving.

And that first posting from Homeless was another brave one. The afterthought explanation it brought from Bert, about why we are all harmed ny Michael K's antics, was just frankly ridiculous. When I see an anonymous posting, I just assume it's from someone outside the Cat. And if the rest of you want to think it's from me, I couldn't care less. If you're going to label your postings "personal opinion" (I mean what the hell else is it going to be?) don't take on to speak for me as well as yourself.

Like Jed Marum, I never see the flamers, just the endless, navel-contemplating discussions about them. I have certainly been tempted to post a flame or two myself however, and am differentiated from MK in this respect only to the extent that in the end I usually couldn't be bothered. And curiously enough, I have to say that it is probably Kat who has tempted me most, not least in this thread, where having proudly paraded her loathing, she then sanctimoniously counsels us to "let it go." Kat, if you gain from Mudcat on the music side, settle for that and ignore the rest. If you want us all to think you're wonderful because you wallow in some kid learning to ride a bike, you're here for the wrong reason and you may get hurt some more. (No offence to the kid, but is this really the place?)

Lastly a question. What does Praise mean by "essentially blasmphemous" postings, and why feel compelled to "rebuke" them? Would it not be more constructive to challenge the various religious beliefs in the name of which so much suffering has been caused, and some of which linger on, to this day?

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Jul 00 - 09:09 PM

Fionn,

I would be happy to address your question in personal messages if you are interested in a mutually open discussion.

~S~

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 04:58 AM

If the basis of the way this place works, is not immediately apparent and needs to be explained or tested, then the poster is not in the right place.

I think that it is sad, that far more attention, time and accommodation is spent in indulging (some) of those that behave badly, and thus encouraging them (and others), to continue, than appreciation is paid to those who do not. More importantly those who probably COULD not.

Maybe that is the reason, and the resulting loss of trust the forum does not return to where it was, prior to these spats?

Attention seeking bad behaviour in children, if rewarded, is not often to their long-term benefit and usually done at the expense of other less demanding souls.

I found this particular, attention-seeking child, one I did not warm to when the postings were under their name and I largely ignored them. When the post were from 'guests' I totally ignored them. Now that the postings will be under that name again, I shall continue to do that.

I think it is important that the damage to individuals and to their sense of trust, should first be recognised and not be undermined, to any extent, by those who do not feel that damage.

Whatever sympathy I may have with the perpetrator, I will first consider the effect of the victims of that crime.

However, the most damage of this juvenile silliness is done, to all on The Mudcat.

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 05:39 AM

Can't agree more, Shambles.

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: GUEST,Andy mööer
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 07:12 AM

my gOD!!what on earth is going on in this place?? I've never heard that 'flaming 'expression before(other than in australian slang),but I can pretty well guess what it means.-a pathetic plea follows- 'can you ALL stay and can we not squabble SO much?'...Andy.

Subject: RE: The Truth IS Out There - Now
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 21 Jul 00 - 08:04 AM

Praise, that was a temperate response to my intemporate blast in your direction, and in the spirit of the last posting, I'd be happy to take you up on it if you can be bothered.

It was Moonchild's post near the top that had really inflamed me, but I had decided to ignore that one on the bsis that it was a parting shot. (As it happens, she hung around to send me a gratuitous personal message anyway, so what the hell?)