Sex and the folksinger

Subject: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:14 AM

Someone in another thread said that banjos are sexier than guitars. My mind immediately leaped backwards to the early 50s when folksingers seemed to be much more sexually active than other folks -- at least around the University of Chicago. In fact, one of the percs of being a banjo picker was that you never stayed lonely very long. It wasn't until a few years later, when folk music had become tremendously popular, that I heard the term "sexual revolution" and realized that the free-wheeling morals of my youth had gone mainstream. I've often wondered how much folk music had to do with launching that particular revolution. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Max
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:25 AM

Well, there's no money in folk music, so there ought to be at least a little lovin. I'm more of a blues singer really, and let me tell you, the chicks dig it.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:34 AM

Well, Herself always said she married me for my record collection (then as now mostly jazz and blues), we can't divorce after nearly 30 years because we couldn't bear to split it up![although if Chris Barber's blues guitarist,John Slaughter, ever gave her the come-on it'd be a close run thing] It certainly wasn't for my singing, although she's remarkably tolerant of that (although she won't let me whistle).Come to think of it, one of our first "dates" was to a Shirley & Dolly Collins concert, so perhaps there is something in the power of folk...
RtS

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Mbo
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:36 AM

I wouldn't know about either of the two.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:41 AM

That was before my time. But when I've been out fiddling solo, I have been hit on by men old enough to be my granpda.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:47 AM

Uh, oh, Kim. Was one of those geezers a banjo picker with a white beard and an old open-back Fairbanks?

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: bbelle
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:50 AM

During the 60's and early 70's, folk music was about acceptance and love and feeling the world was coming to an end (Viet Nam). The only danger was getting a veneral disease or getting pregnant. If you were monogamous, it was okay. If you had several partners, it was okay, too. The word "prosmiscuity" had fallen by the wayside and "make love, not war" was the motto.

The straight-laced southern college coeds (of which, I was, seemingly, one) were "doing it," but in the backseat of cars, and denying it. They were the ones who got pregnant first. The hippie chicks were heading to the planned parenthood clinic and getting birth control pills and "doing it," but not denying it, and not getting pregnant (of course, there's always that percentage).

I was a coed by day and a working hippie folksinger by night. I made my trip to planned parenthood my first semester at FSU. I had lots of boyfriends, some hippie and some GQ. Commitment was spending the night. The word "love" was uttered without fear of reprisal. The GQ boys talked about "it," behind their hands and with snickers. The hippie boys talked about it openly, with sheer awe in their voices, as if it were a wonderful, newfound phenomenon.

For me, it was a wonderful, newfound phenomenon. I enjoyed every minute of every moment. Falling in love was easy and free and clear. No one had any baggage, upon which to judge another. The theme was peace and I believed in it.

I miss those times ...

moonchild

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:15 PM

Sigh! Moonchild, your message almost makes me wish I had been in my earl twenties in the 60s. Alas, I was in my thirties, with a wife I loved, and three children that made life worth living. Sounds like it was a glorious fun time though.

DougR

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: bigchuck
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:46 PM

I WAS in my early twenties during the 60's. While my memory is not what it used to be, I'm quite certain that I would remember all that free lovin if it happened around me. I'm sure it was happening somewhere, but alas, it wasn't anywhere I was.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:46 PM

Downeast Bob, Wheww! for a moment I thought you were referring to me, until I read the word Fairbanks. Off the hook.

When I was younger, I thought there was something to the popular image of the sexually liberated, long-haired, guitar-picking, poetical, folk singer type. I met my first wife that way, and courted her with one arm around her, and the other hand near my guitar. I still remember all the times when she had the blues, and would ask me to sing to her. How romantic.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:01 PM

I know I'm getting old. The first thought that jumped into my mind when I saw this thread was "Festival Love". I threw in that "Banjos are sexier" as a joke last week. There is an entire thread on the subject if you have an hour to spare.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:01 PM

Working hippie folksinger? Somehow that just don't seem to swing...I spent a lot of years as an unemployed hippie folksinger, which was much of the point.

Kim, the sight of a lone fiddler, especially of the opposite sex, is well-nigh irresistable to yer basic guitar-player.

Trouble with the folksingers-get-more approach was that it was really "best player gets more"--and everybody was trying to be a folksinger those days. By the time I was any good I was out of the running.

W-O

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:07 PM

FESTIVAL LOVE (Mark Graham)

We were standing round picking some bluegrass I had me a half dozen beers A bottle of Jack in my pocket, my friends Well I hadn't felt that good in years She was standing there picking the banjo She was pickin' and lookin' just fine My heart it went wild when she looked up and smiled And passed me her bottle of wine

It was festival love in the moonlight Sure as the stars shone above And there in a flash I was feeling such passion That old demon festival love

She asked for a drink of my whiskey And I bummed her last cigarette The sparks theyWe were flyin' as we strolled towards the pines To play fiddle and banjo duets We played there for nearly an hour And I put my hand on her knee In about half a second we was necking and pecking All down on the ground 'neath those trees

It was festival love in the moonlight Sure as the stars shone above Three in the morning it came without warning That old demon festival love

We started for her tent together When the world seemed to twist and to veer I insulted my shoes with three kinds of booze And passed out at the feet of my dear When I woke from my drug-induced slumber The sunlight was hurting my eyes I was shocked to discover my festival lover Had her arm around some other guy

It was festival love in the daylight Sure as the sun shone above But I knew in my sorrow there was always tomorrow That old demon festival love

Copyright Mark Graham @music @love filename[ FESTLOVE Tune file : FESTLOVE

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:08 PM

Bob and Willie-O, I don't think this fella was a musician at all. Thankfully I am not usually solo! Although, being one who enjoys the center of attention, sometimes said attention is rather amusing. No, I probably would not have married Mister if he didn't play the guitar.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: bbelle
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:00 PM

W-O ... sorry to disappoint you but I was getting paid for folksinging. And I'm sorry but I just don't get your point. Surely, you're not implying that, in order to be taken seriously, you had to have been unemployed?

moonchild

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 02:18 PM

All I know is, most of the few women who even hint at the groupie (gropie?) thing with me are women who tend to look like me!! LOL!!

Maybe I should go back to Progressive Rock...

{~`

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:10 PM

No, no, no, Moonchild. Just talking about how I was, no implication about how anyone else should be. I just find, where I'm coming from, the phrase "working hippie folksinger" has an odd sound to it.

There is no point, honest. And I miss them days too.

Bill

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Pseudolus
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

I love the name of this thread, sounds like an episode of Love American style!!

I must admit I chuckled a little bit to think of the idea that folk music and folk musicians would have the label sexy. I was in my twenties in the early 80's and in my circle, well, let me just say that I was a closet folk fan! apparently I lived in the wrong era! I wasn't off by much but.....

I'm 42 now and I hate to brag but I have a groupie that comes to hear me play all the time. She loves to hear me sing and she always has a request or two. She's there when the place is packed and when the place is all but empty. She's talented, pretty, and intelligent and I was lucky enough to marry her two and a half years ago! Maybe I didn't live in the wrong era!!

Frank

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: sophocleese
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:03 PM

Personally I'm in favour of it.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:06 PM

Let you know when it happens......

LTS

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:22 PM

Dear Ann Landers,

I remember the sixties and seventies folk scene well, maybe too well sometimes--I strummed and sang and played the slightly melancholic folksinger/songerwriter role(quite a trick, because I actually did a lot of funny songs, and my "serious" songs turn out to be even funnier) and found that young women were always very interested--I married my sweetest, wide eyed admirer, and she was always so proud of my music, but subtly started to get in the way of my actually playing--

She turned out be about as sweet as a well, let's just say, not so sweet...I probably was not the romantic and tragically sensitive child that I pretended to be either. That relationship went before the judge..

Free again, I had learned an important lesson, and hit the road to play every art fair, coffeehouse, Holiday Inn, vegatarian restaurant, Coral Gables Rathskeller, Earth Day Anti-Nuke Picnic, Unitarian-candlelight-Singles-Who-Want-to-Stop-the-War-and-have-an-open-relationship-with-someone-creative-and-sensitive-night that I could find--with predictable results--

I got over it after about twenty years(two bad marriages, two long-term live-together relationships, one long-term non-live together, and various dalliances and infidelities-

I think that playing certain kinds of music, in certain environments, has always created certain sorts of "romantic" possibities, and I think it is easy to believe a lot of things about what happens--that it is revolutionary, that it is liberating, that it is poetic, romantic, that it is tragic--but sooner or later, it turns out that the lovers are in love with these things, and not each other... Just call me,

"Don't Get Around Much Anymore"

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: GUEST,Mindy
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM

You sound interesting Bob! I want to meet you! Where do you hang out?

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:51 PM

duh...maybe some of us folksingers are just s_l_o_w.

years ago, I had just returned to Wichita Kans from my first foray to Wash DC, and I had acquired a bumper sticker reading.."Take an AUTOHARP player to dinner"...which I put on my 'harp case.

One day, I was sitting in the park, waiting my turn to play in the local pick-up volleyball game and playing tunes, the case in front of me...up rides a pleasant young coed on a bicycle...stops in front of me...looks at me, the 'harp, the case...and as I finish the tune I was playing, asks..."What do you eat?"

It took me a long few moments to connect the question to the bumper sticker, and to this day, I have NO idea what I answered!

(similar things have happened since...so far I'm batting 2 for 6 or so..*grin*....married #2 and had 19 years of durn nice......music)

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:52 PM

Gee Mindy, just the other day I was telling Annabelle, whom I married in 1963, that since I turned 65, I can't recall a single instance in which a woman of any age has said or done anything calculated to catch me attention. And you didn't even hear me play! Thanks!

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Morticia
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 06:58 PM

yes, please :)

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: JenEllen
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 07:05 PM

This thread definately leaves me stuck in the group of the "young'uns".

I see a lot of similar themes/stories in the folk circles around here. It was a bit shocking at first, to find that most of the participants had 'known' each other in one form or another for years. Shocking, hell, it scared the crap out of me. I grew up in the '80s with the scare of casual sex=disease, and even though I've participated in various efforts at serial monogamy, I still get a little creeped out..and the prospective guy gets the third degree before he gets to third, y'know? I'm about the furthest thing from frigid, I'd just like to be able to remember your name...

My question to add is this: Any regrets? I know that shit happens, it happens to everyone, but do you ever wish you hadn't? A folk musician here that I've grown close to over the years has been pretty open with me concerning his past flings, expresses regret for not getting to know the women better, but still operates under the same MO. A flirt with a pulse and he's a goner.

Does it make a difference if you rely on music for a living as opposed to playing for music's sake? Do you think relying on audience/groupies to pay the bills requires professional musicians to relax their guard a bit more? At the last festival we had, a drunken audience member grabbed my ass, and I told him if he did it again he'd go home with a few less teeth. My aforementioned friend made a point of telling me you have to be nice to the fans, whether they came for the music or your behind....I don't buy it. Where is a good place to draw that line?

I do appreciate the stories told here, you've all been incredibly open. It's also nice to hear a few of them turned out to be forever.

~Elle

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 07:23 PM

What sex? oh nevermind you said folksinger...not poet....

Amergin

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 07:43 PM

Aw my, those were the days my friend.I lived in Yorkville in the 60's before hepatitus scare,whit by the way was made up to get us out so the beautiques moved in.
Everything Moonchild says was true as far as i was concerned,Hugh Hefner was only a joke.It is hard to explain to people who were'nt there.Then when the big upsurge in Scots and Irish music hit i was in hog heaven.
Alas it's just a memory now!!!
I have a few reminiscences on the early days as a folksinger at
dundee.ukf.net if anyone is interested.Where are you Fielding?? LJC

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:08 PM

Another thing...I always found that hammered dulcimer, which I busked with for years, had a particularly romantic effect. (Anybody else experienced this?) First time I discovered this was the first night I tuned my brand-new instrument up after I brought it home. (Talking 1979, at some party.)

That's probably why I kept playing it longer than I really liked.

Now that I've been married for 16 years, I bring it out about once annually....really should restring it sometime!

W-O

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: MarkS
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:11 PM

I always enjoyed the blues - and never got much. But when it comes to the blues, isn't that the point?

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:24 PM

I don't think casual or promiscuous sex was the problem, it is getting into a relationship because you've confused sex with something else, and "fallen" for an imaginary ideal that you've projected onto someone else--

Most of the people I know who just slept around and recognized it for what it was don't have a lot of regrets--

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 08:31 PM

JenEllen wanted to know if any of us had any regrets. I didn't have any until I got married. After that, I slowly realized that I'd been so intent on sex, I'd actually lost some of my ability to love a woman. I believe that when sex becomes casual and frequent, with many partners, the participants begin investing less and less of themselves in the relationship because they don't want a lot of emotional turmoil when it's over. Not good preparation for marriage -- or at least it wasn't in my case. Annabelle and I went through some rough times because of this but after 37 years together (!) we are convinced that today ours is a happier marriage than we could have ever foreseen.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Abby Sale
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 09:56 PM

Bob,

The fellow at the university party that played & sang protest songs of people he'd never met learned to develop a plaintive air that drew chicks like magnets. Groupies, in their way. And, of course, the professionals had (& have) groupies as a matter of course.

But banjo in my experience was different back then. Most pickers tended to have Scruggs pegs and hang out in the kitchen at parties. Had about as much charisma as all those hundreds of banjo jokes would imply. None.

Still, I do recall that you just weren't that good looking a guy then so maybe it was the banjo after all! Anyway, you played a different sort of music.

No, away from the novelty situations as "protest" singers and professionals, there was a genuine Movement. A large element of that happened to be folk music and another was a personal freedom in general. A new look at sex was just part of the Movement as was a new look at politics, the arts (esp poetry & painting) & the concept of family.

After all, I shared my share in the Movement and didn't play any instrument. And admittedly wasn't particularly good-looking either.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:07 PM

Abby -- You're right. The plaintive protest songs at university parties charmed the pants off 'em. So did "Shootin' With Rasputin."

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:25 PM

I watched a guy play various songs at a sing one night (about 1964), obviously wooing a young lady...finally he did "The Rivers of Texas" (Brazos River), and she left with him...

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:32 PM

Bill, that sounds so familiar that I suspect you and I were at the same party. Dat so?

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: GUEST,Sally who used to be free and easy
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:45 PM

What I remember about you studs from forty years ago was that most of you had bad B.O. and that your little Downeast Bobs and little Bill Ds were really little.

I think it was one of you that gave me the clap.

It is cute now to read you geezers remember what great cocksmen you were. It's just like listening to my 15 year old high school students.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Susan A-R
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:46 PM

. . . So the concert pianist and I have been married for fourteen years. He heard me singing at a local coffee house, and I heard him play a certain Brahms Intermezzo, and it was all history. I'm not sure it's must folk, folks. Music touches on something pretty central, and always will.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 11:01 PM

Ah, Sally, I know now that I wasn't really a great cocksman. Just a lustful little guy, not too much older (in those days) than your students, whose banjo did wonders for his social life. Sorry about the clap.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 02:51 AM

My baby came to me this mornin'
And she said, I'm kinda confused
If me and B.B. King were both drownin'
Which one would you choose?
And I said, Whoa, baby
Whoa, baby
I said Whoa, whoa, baby
Babe, I ain't never heard you play no blues!

(Steve Goodman)

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 04:00 AM

Mark, Herself says she identifies with that song which is often on our CD player!
RtS

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 08:39 AM

JenEllen, I'm staying away from personal reminiscences about sexual encounters; I wouldn't want to make anyone feel inadequate. As for your other question -- how much one should grin and bear it for the sake of hanging onto the audience -- I think you called it exactly right when you offered to remove a couple of teeth from your "admirer".

I am a part-timer performer (four gigs a month on average), and I run into the same issue in a variety of different forms -- basically, I often find that I'm the only sober person in a room full of drunks, and their behavior frequently leaves a lot to be desired. They may grab a handful of something soft without your permission (I'm a man; women do this too), or feel entitled to "borrow" a microphone, or twist a couple of knobs on the board when the sound man isn't looking, or decide that since you're occupied with playing and singing, it's okay to harrass your significant other. My philosophy is that I'm there to play music and be reasonably congenial, but that's as far as it goes -- nobody has rights to anything beyond that, and if they step out of line I'm going to call them on it. I may lose a few audience members, but that's a worthwhile tradeoff in my opinion. If reasonable rules cause me to lose more than a few, I probably don't want to play that room any more.

I know this is the luxury of a part-timer (I won't starve without the gigs), and full-timers may have slightly different rules of engagement. But I'm with you on this.

Whistle Stop (regrets, I've had a few...)

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Willie-O
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 09:18 AM

Nobody drunk or sober messes with your knobs onstage without express permission! In the situations WhistleStop describes, you have to assert your territorial rights or you won't have any.

I don't take any pride in the attitudes I had towards sexual encounters when I was younger. It's a bit ridiculous to either be proud of, or regret having been immature in one's youth, however long that may have lasted. If one never grew out of those patterns, well, that's a problem.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Midchuck
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 10:37 AM

Willie-O said:

"Nobody drunk or sober messes with your knobs onstage without express permission!"

I'm sure all the females among us who perform would agree. But under what circumstances would such permission be granted? That's a gig I'd like to see!

Peter.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Lena
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 10:41 AM

How about the image of the wild troubadour(which sounds quite similar to the italian world for scrxxxxer)appealling romantic or easy-going crowds?!Today down in this pub,tomorrow never knows...?! I still find folk musicians a sexy category suggesting sexual freedom.They inspire a particular sensuality...whatever. Personally I find clarinet players more sexy thal banjo players.Experience taught me that that nasty instrument requires a very WELL trained tongue. But it's a matter of what you're after... (I should add that folk musicians also get me the opposite effect:they get me romantic.Sort of:we'll love each other forever in music amen...)

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 10:57 AM

Lena, watch out for bagpipes! Strong lungs, fast tongues, and really good at squeezing! Or hugging, as the case me be.

--Mbo (beginning piper)

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 11:35 AM

Actually, Mbo, I've been told that nice and slow is the way to go...One needn't attack the poor girl...Shouldn't Spaw or Big Mick be giving you lessons?

Amergin

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:21 PM

Nice and slow IS the way to go, Amergin. And my girl knows what she's got...a first-class squeezer!

--Matt

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Lena
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:29 PM

That's fine.But the bagpipes are a bit too macho-like. I think that Mbo was just teasing,not attacking...let's trust.I'll keep the advise in mind.

It's interesting how you can find many 'immoral'folk ballads...a great number of them doesn't give a toss about sexual repression.It suggests that probably we got a big moment of'constriction 'after the Industrial Revolution.Really,people in folk music had a lot going on along riversides,behind bushes and during nightime... I can think about a few classics to quotate... Tam Lin is the first.The Cuckoo's Song(Our Goodman).Others don't come to my mind at three in the morning.

Subject: RE: Sex and the folksinger
From: Diva
Date: 27 Jul 00 - 01:29 PM

I have found that flute players make.. good kissers.