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The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music
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Subject: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Doctor John Date: 04 Aug 00 - 04:30 PM I know my definition of "what is folk music?" is pretty narrow and others have a much wider one but at the Stroud festival "The Glen Miller Orchestra" heads the bill. Great they may be in their own field but I think it would take a very wide definition to include them in "folk". Can anyone beat this for silliness? Dr John |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: MandolinPaul Date: 04 Aug 00 - 04:38 PM A few years ago, the lead singer of Chilliwack played the Ottawa folk festival. Do I win? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM I'm afraid Dr. John still has the lead, PaulS. Glenn Miller? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: GUEST,Earl Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:18 PM Anyone at this year's Newport Folk Festival |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:25 PM That's the Newport $$$$$ Festival...what do you expect?...(and if singing horses would draw a crowd, they'd be on center stage) The Philidelphia 'Folk' Festival is not far behind |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:27 PM Why, who are these performers that are sooooo horrible? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:34 PM Newport Folk Festival. All fine performers unless you are interested in folk music. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Shanti Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:41 PM I second that question...who is at the Newport Festival this year? I haven't been since the sixties...must have changed an awful lot. How sad. And as far as Glenn Miller's Orchestra being considered "folk"...if you stretch the definition to include not only songs of the people, but songs that PEOPLE liked...guess you can include any of the big bands...they were EXTREMELY popular with the folks in the 30s and 40s. And some of that music kept our boys overseas as happy as they could be, during a war. It was their "folk" music and it held just as fond a spot in their hearts as songs like "Lorena" did during the Civil War. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bernard Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:44 PM I think I win this competition! The daftest inclusion in Folk Music is definitely me! Checkout the 'Manchester - is anybody there?' thread! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Burke Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:44 PM RE Newport: Natalie MacMaster is Folk |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:47 PM All the folks there sound ok to me, but then again I'm not an old fogey. I guess people are ticked 'cause Billy Bob and The Haystack Gang couldn't make the show. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: kendall Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:07 PM A few years ago, they had Bo Diddley at the Maine Festival!! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: bbelle Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:22 PM Truthfully ... there's a lot of good people performing. So, they're not "folk" in the strictest form of the word, but they're not schlubbs, either.
And, Matthew ... I take exception of your use of the word "old fogey." To me, that implies someone who resists change and, while there may be a few of those here, many of us, not only don't resist, but welcome it.
moonchild |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:25 PM I have often argued that the definition of folk should be less tight-assed but this is ridiculous. The point is if you have a festival and you call it a "folk" festival you should make sure traditional folk styles are represented then include some token singer/songwriters. Not vice versa. Natalie MacMaster may be folk, Natalie Merchant (a fine pop singer) is not folk by any definition I can imagine. Bela Fleck and the Flecktones would be a good funk band if they lost the banjo, but they are not folk. Peter Rowan knows some folk songs but I'll be he doesn't sing any at Newport. Why not save everyone the aggravation and just drop the F word entirely? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Frankham Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM Everybody knows that it isn't Glen Miller, it's Stan Kenton who is a folk band. Also, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra plays folk Beethoven and folk Bach. Burt Bachrach is also a folk musician as well as Stephen Sondheim. Also, Metallica and Garth Brooks are folk singers. So is Shania Twain. And I have heard horses sing it. Or was that horse's (you know what). Frank
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:39 PM O Frank, you haven't heard ME sing folk Metallica & folk Garth Brooks! Y'all don't know what your missing! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:48 PM Well, Shanti, I would say that's quite a stretch. You're right that Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey, etc. were very popular during WW2, but we thought of them as "Popular" groups, not folk. Burl Ives was folk, Frank Sinatra wasn't. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:56 PM Whoa, Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer is folk now? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM Is there also a Newport Jazz Festival? This is a different one, right? Or did it replace the jazz festival? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 12:06 AM The jazz fest sucks too |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 07:48 PM and a LOT of the problem in this materialistic age is that musicians, both folk AND jazz, know there is money to be made if they find a 'new' fad....so they experiment and change established 'sounds' in order to put their stamp on it... I realize there's no law aginst putting notes and chords and words in new places, but like cuckoos, they have no shame about laying their eggs in another bird's nest. There is a metaphor, I think, in a comparison to the environmental changes on earth as a whole.....with the gross movements of people, plant life, etc., there is cross-pollenization and introduction of new species into areas at a faster rate than 'normal'...and MANY problems..(killer bees...foreign plants choking the Florida Everglades, fruit flies in California..) Anytime change is gratuitous and rapid, something suffers...The Brazilian rain forest suffers as new farms are burned and hacked out of it every year...and musical styles suffer and are bastardized as new stuff is introduced faster than it can be assimilated easily. Sure..it ALWAYS changes...but the pop culture money machines demand change NOW... It is very much like watching your favorite (ethnic) restaurant change the recipes every few weeks or months, without changing the names of the dishes of the sign in the window....do you really WANT BBQ burritos?..(saw that YESTERDAY!)...and if they add cilantro & goat cheese, they'll STILL shamelessly put 'em in the Mexican food section. Friends..play and sing anything you please...and have a festival for it if you wish...just don't kid yourself or lie to ME about what it is! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:00 PM Not sure if I follow all of what you are saying Bill D, are you arguing against improvisation? I am not really into Jazz very much, but I am under the impression that improvisation in Jazz is what it's all about. Not so? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:09 PM no...not about improvization...(not all jazz is improv, but even improv seems to follow certain established 'rules'...improv is a lot about variation on a theme, I believe)...I suspect that a real jazz afficinado would NOT appreciate riffs that were 'too' different. A lot of it is the mood and feel of it all. Young girl singer/songwriters putting their diaries to music DOES have a different feel to it than Scots ballads or Appalachian play-party songs. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:15 PM Well, if you listen to a lot of, say, Robin Laing or Battlefield Band (as I do) you end being a "singer songwriter" who writes songs about Scottish & Irish history. --M |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:19 PM There's no one comparable to the Battlefield Band at Newport. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:25 PM and I LOVED Battlefield Band the first time I heard them....then they started with the fast LOUD stuff so they'd get more college gigs...*sigh*...and soon most of the members were changed...
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:34 PM Oh well boo hoo for you Bill! God forbid a musical group should be able to reinvent themselves every few years. Does nothing please you people? Will you not be happy until everyone in the world is a folk clone singing boring-ass 1000 year old tunes! I got a good quote for you all from Oasis, who I happen to really like: "F*** 'em all, and play what you want."
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:35 PM Play what you want, F*** who you want. Just don't call it folk. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:02 PM btw, A thousand year old song would be really cool. Do you know any? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:10 PM Yes, Deirde's Lament for The Sons of Usnach. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:14 PM Care to post the tune for that? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:15 PM hum a few bars |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:33 PM Ah...Bruce Olson posted the tune in this thread: Ancient Irish Songs; though the story is very old, the tune can be traced back only to the early 19th. century. Obviously it may be much older, but without evidence it's just silly to make assumptions about it. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:33 PM You'll find it here. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:45 PM Thanks for that link; it takes us back a little further. Still seven centuries or so to go, though... |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:47 PM And I heard Dar Williams will be singing at Newport. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:47 PM The poem in Irish Gaelic "Deirdre's Lament For The Songs of Usnach", for which the tune was written, is at least 900 years old (so maybe it's not 1000 years old.) The liner notes from The Cheiftains "Celtic Harp" album name the tune as one of the oldest Irish tunes, going back several hundred years. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM I don't care what the liner notes say, there are no documented 900 year old tunes. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:58 PM Quite so; the narrative is old; that's not disputed. How old is the melody? "Several hundred years" (just over two hundred according to the available evidence, so add another hundred for luck) doesn't take us very far... |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:59 PM Still a cool song. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 10:01 PM Absolutely. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Art Thieme Date: 05 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:08 PM "Does nothing please you people? Will you not be happy until everyone in the world is a folk clone singing boring-ass 1000 year old tunes! I got a good quote for you all from Oasis, who I happen to really like: "F*** 'em all, and play what you want." "
...ya know, Matt...you are a bright, talented guy with LOTS of knowlege about a great variety of music..more than me, for sure..but you have a real 'attitude' and you just don't LISTEN sometimes...
I truly get weary of that "you old fogies have had your day...get outta the way, 'cause us young Turks are doin' COOL What you like is not necessarily better or worse than what I like....but if I/we choose NOT to adopt it, then WHY can't we have some little island/oasis/refuge from it? I don't go to a C&W bar and demand they listen to me sing "The Twa Corbies"..(interesting vision, huh? *grin*)...but for 20+ years I have watched pop/rock and folk/rock/ and SSW wannabes try to swarm EVERY tiny venue where people tried to keep 'some' semblance of traditional music going...it is hijacking, pure & simple. Sometimes they just don't understand, but ususally it is just a case of .."I don't WANT to acknowlege those distinctions, as it would cramp my style and make me think before I sing"... ...and truth to tell, I don't expect my petulant grumping to make much difference, but somehow, it feels better than just quietly slinking back into the shadows when you make remarks like that quoted at the beginning of this post...."folk clones?"...not likely..."boring-ass?" ..perhaps to you, but that was a step over the line....I have NEVER called YOUR music names, only suggested that it didn't all suit me, and that it sometimes clashed with the situation.. ah, well..it is a free forum, Max tells us...bad taste and /or judgement is as welcome as anything...
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:23 PM It's called teen angst. So far in my life it's never surfaced. Be glad mine is only about music! --Matt (defender of ALL musical styles) |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Jeri Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:38 PM Bill D, thanks. You put it much better than I did before I erased it. I don't like most of the schtick-of-the-month, trendy, buy-it-because-we-say-it's-cool stuff. I listen to and like some rock. Mean-spirited comments about people's musical preferences is a lot less tolerant than simply not liking a certain kind of music. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DonMeixner Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:32 AM I like to play and sing. I am an entertainer. The music I chose to entertain with is often in a folkish style. No body aat a festival seems to complain when I play a song like "Rye Whiskey Joe" on the same card as "Roddy McCorley" or "Lilly The Pink" with "Twa Corbies". Now and then I'll play something widly out of place like "Begin the Beguine". It ain't folk but is fun and people are entertained which is my job. But reference to the title: When was the last time that Bluegrass was at The Telluride Bluegrass Festival? Don |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:48 AM Well I've been saying I'm a loser for months, yet no one ever believes me. BELIEVE IT! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 06 Aug 00 - 02:40 AM I love music and I love a lot of musical styles though those around me might say that I only talk about what I hate. With American country music there has always been an establishment and always been people who succeeded rebelling against the establishment. Whether its Hank Williams or Lucinda Williams the establishment has to open up and embrace the rebels. But American country, like it or not, has always been bullshit. The first stars of the Grand Ol Opry were vaudeville performers playing the roll of country bumpkins. Country is just a Billboard category like R&B, MOR, AOR, etc. What makes folk different (or should) is that, by definition, it refers to a great body of singing and playing that goes back … well at least three hundred years. Is there room for innovation? Of course, otherwise we would all be singing the same damned song. All music is influenced by folk music (you know about the horses, right?) When people rebel in folk it means they leave folk behind and start something new. Dylan hasn't called himself a folksinger in years. In a recent interview Joni Mitchell said she always considered herself a cabaret singer. If she had said that thirty years ago maybe we would be talking about the Newport Cabaret Festival. Play what you want, I'll listen, just don't call if folk unless it is. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: CarolC Date: 06 Aug 00 - 03:37 AM Ok, Malcom Douglas, I've got one for you. It's not quite 1000 years old, but it's close. "O adiutor", by Bishop Ato from the 12th century. It's probably liturgical, so maybe it's not really folk, but hey, what's a thousand years between friends? CarolC |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: CarolC Date: 06 Aug 00 - 03:54 AM Excuse me, Malcolm Douglas. I just got so excited I couldn't spell straight. Carol |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 06 Aug 00 - 05:50 AM The best part of "teen-angst" is when they grow out of it... Sorry, Mbo... I was firmly on yer side along this thread until that one small point... Then I just had to pick that nit... Things change, yer right... They have to change or they die... The kids of today that are into 'celtic' music think it's all like Kilt and The Mahones... 2 bands that I couldn't possible care any less for... But that's what they like and more power to 'em... So, when I'm at a fest and that stuff starts up, I go elsewhere... And well, only time will tell but I suspect that a lot of the "Singer-songwriter crap" (as quoted from antoher thread of late) of today is the folk music of the future... So if ya don't like that, either stay away from it, or get busy gettin' out of the way, 'casue I'm lettin' Mbo blaze the trail on this on! Let's hear it for innovation! Besides, isn't this why you get the line-up for a fest before you order your tickets?? Then if it's not to your liking, you're casting you vote against by not supporting it... I think this thread needs a bran muffin! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Callie Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:12 AM There are Izhorian Runic folk songs which are at least 1,000 years old. I've got music if anyone is interested. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:31 AM Carol...interesting, but it's really Earl you should be speaking to. I>/B> was just being difficult about one particular example! I'd make a distinction, though, between a documented song of proven antiquity (and they do seem usually to be liturgical, and therefore "art" rather than "folk" music) and one found in living tradition. The question might be whether "O adiutor" is still being sung as part of a continuing tradition, or whether it is only performed as an antiquarian piece in Early Music recitals? Callie...that sounds interesting, too; are they part of a living tradition, or are they archaeological finds? Please tell us more! Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:31 AM Please excuse my sloppy formatting. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:51 AM I honestly don't know if there are 1000 year old folks songs still around, it just doesn't seem likely. As far as the festival is concerned I will stay away but it is my right as an American to bitch and ridicule. I'm going to a Beethoven festival headlined by Limp Bizket |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: katlaughing Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:54 AM I would suspect the Tuvan throat music, which can be found in living tradition today, goes back a long way. I will check out my booklet on it and see. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Jeri Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:57 AM Mbo, we've been telling you you're a winner for months - when are you going to BELIEVE IT!?!? People have different opinions, and none of us are losers because of that. You quoted someone from Oasis: "F*** 'em all, and play what you want." That's what we do. I play and sing things that are old, or sound like they're old. All of us who do that have fought most of our musical lives against people who want us to think like them. I DO like traditional music; I DO like some rock and newly composed songs, but I refuse to let anyone tell me I'm wrong about what I like or don't like. I like the different types of music because they are different. If traditional music started sounding too much like rock, if one rock band started sounding exactly like another, if it all starts sounding the same, what is left to love? Folk music has almost always been the "alternative music." I hope we always have the alternative. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Callie Date: 06 Aug 00 - 10:32 AM Warning: somewhat of a thread creep ... Between posting the above and finding the actual music, I have to report an inaccuracy. The Izhorian Runic songs date from around 2000 BC. The language is now extinct - a close relative of modern Estonian . The songs were collected this century and written down for the first time. The songs I have include "A Spell Against the Adder" which is mainly spoken, "My Lips are Singing But My Heart Is Heavy", and a Runic Epic which describes the beginning of the world as the breaking of a swallow's egg. The Epic is similar in sound to the most famous part of Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana". The texts are all in Ukranian script, so I can't read the descriptions of all the songs. I have to rely on memory of what I learnt when a Ukranian conductor taught them to me. As for folk, jazz and pop - well, there's good and bad in all kinds of music. It's a good thing there are still "purist" outlets for those who want to stick with the one genre. As someone who has thought a lot about what "jazz" is and isn't, I can say that I'm dismayed that often at jazz festivals they slip in lots of popular but non-jazz acts: groovy stuff, lounge etc, that isn't what the festival is for. I can understand folkies' disappointment when trad festivals are infultrated by new forms. Vote with your feet! Callie |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Aug 00 - 10:51 AM Being Devil's Advocate again...if the songs were first collected in the 20th. century, how can anybody tell how old they are? Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Callie Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:00 AM Wish I could remember our conductor's reasoning. And wish even more that I could read Ukranian! Dunno - references to the songs in other forms? References to landscape or cultural practices? I really can't answer your question. I might do some net-surfing and see what I can find out. How are folk-tales dated? By the way: I assume that if they were collected this century they would have evolved a fair way since 3000 years ago (in keeping with oral/folk traditions). However, I have them in a language which is now extinct, so some parts of a version of the original might be intact. Callie (1am, but now intrigued) |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:35 AM Folksongs and folktales can only be reliably dated to the first known recorded version, though obviously they are often considerably older than that, and a tentative earlier date may sometimes be arrived at from things the source says, such as "I learned this in (date)" or "from (identifiable person)"; the point is that, beyond the available historical evidence, all else is just guesswork, sometimes educated, all too often sheer fantasy. That doesn't mean that there aren't songs or stories still (or recently) current that are very old indeed; just that it's usually impossible to prove. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Ferrara Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:53 AM I try to avoid discussions of "what is folk music" partly because, being married to Bill D, I hear a lot of 'em. But I suspect the real subject of this thread is the modern tendency for so many venues to become choked with hybrid folk-rock and singer-songwrite stuff **to the virtual exclusion of genuine traditional music.** The definition wouldn't matter wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for the fact that gatherings started by people with a taste for old, traditional music, often change their emphasis to new, more popular music and another good festival is lost to the twin gods of ego and money. I'm real glad there are people out there who are bringing a feel for folk music to the younger generation by making it more like the music they hear on the radio. But must they drive out everything else? The National Folk Festival and the fourth of July Festival on the Mall feature a variety of music, but there are a lot of genuine traditional singers who sing the stuff the old folks sang. They aren't headliners. They may not even be performers. They are folks. Where are the folks at the Newport and Philly festivals?
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:28 PM Some wold say the studious have got the folk muse right Some would say the sexy can, sing but true delight Some will change the context, when playing songs by sight But folk musicians, fountainheads, play into the night Innovation turns on some who have to change the tune These ones do dilutions well with water and a spoon In this world thats changing fast, we need to find the source Whats more we want it as "it was", collected from the horse And then the teens come rolling in to reinvent the wheel with capital at every step, running at their heels Business crafts a deafened ear for many trendy things And love the ones who say they will, while hanging from their strings... |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Jeri Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:46 PM I am an old folkie, if the truth it be told I like my men young and my songs very old For cheese that is ripest is covered with mold And you'd better join me on the chorus |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhranplayerwhodoesn'tknowbetter Date: 06 Aug 00 - 04:58 PM I just heard that Chicago's Old Town School of Folk Music is running ensemble in The Grateful Dead, the Beatles and The Clash. I think the last of those has GOT to win th "Daftest Inclusion In Folk Music" Rich |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: GUEST,CarolC who will re-set her cookie later Date: 06 Aug 00 - 09:05 PM For Malcolm Douglas or whoever is interested; I think it can be pretty clearly demonstrated that folk music that is found in living tradition can pass down for many centuries fairly unchanged. When I was younger, I played nothing but renaissance and early baroque music. We considered this type of music to be a sub-category of classical music. On more than one occassion since I started playing traditional and folk music, while attending folk and traditional music jam sessions, I have heard some of the music I used to play from the renaissance period being played and labled as traditional music. Also, I have been told that in Ireland, O'Carolan's music is considered too new-fangled to be called traditional. I believe he composed during the sixteen hundreds? (Not picking on anyone - just having fun) Carol |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:04 PM Not so much new-fangled, perhaps, as "classically" influenced. Carolan was certainly influenced by the fashionable Italian composers of the day. I suspect that whoever told you that he was too modern to be "traditional" was having you on, or possibly didn't really know what they were talking about; he worked within a traditional idiom but incorporated outside influences where it seemed appropriate to his market. He had a living to make, after all. If Carolan is too recent to be considered to belong to the tradition, then so is almost all of the instrumental music being played in Ireland at present! Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: dick greenhaus Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:55 PM "FOLK" is NOT a value judgement, GODAMMIT! It can be good, and not be folk, or bad and be folk or anycombination thereof. MBO- Please stop worrying about age and self-expression; neither have anything to do with the subject. he difficulty, for many of us, was stated by Bill D, if you read his posting carefully: If I go into a Thai restaurant, I don't want the menu to be beased on tortillas, or spanikopita or bagels. As far as boycotting festivals featuring music you don't want to hear, I can only raise two points: a) that approach means that you never will hear any performer who's unfamiliar to you, and b) that's just what's happening to folk festival! Ask a festival promoter about dwindling attendance. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: CarolC Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:06 AM I must say, Malcolm Douglas, it sure is fun to have you around here on the Mudcat. On the thread called "BS Does CELTIC music really exist?", I related the story of how I heard what I did about O'Carolan, and the context in which it happened. I've refreshed it for you, so you shouldn't have to look too hard to find it. I'm thinking maybe you know some of the people in my story. It sounds like you get around. Carol |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Kim C Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:35 PM Y'all be sweet, now. I say, that's an interesting lineup for a "folk" festival. There are lots of artists there I like, but I wouldn't necessarily call them "folk." I love the Battlefield Band in the new incarnation because I love that guy that used to sing with Ceolbeg because I used to love them too. I like loud fast stuff. Drive my husband nuts playing it in the car as loud as I can stand it. (So I usually do that alone.) But I also like sweet slow soft stuff, too. In a previous life (like 15 years ago) I was a classically trained pianist. I am still a huge sucker for a good Chopin nocturne. Me, I like everything. Except jazz. But I kinda like that Diana Krall. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:46 PM The guy from Ceolbeg (another one of my favorite bands) is Davey Steele. Davey is terminally ill now, being diagnosed recently with an inoperable brain tumor. It's very sad. I'm going to miss him a lot. "And this will be his last trip home..." --Matt |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Aug 00 - 08:31 PM Carol: Thankyou for that; I knew that you'd mentioned this recently, but couldn't for the life of me remember where. Carolan's music underwent quite a revival in the late '60s and early '70s; it was a novelty in Scotland and England, and spread like wildfire. I can't speak for Ireland, but I suspect that the same sort of thing happened there, though a little earlier. It's probably fair to say that the current popularity of his music is, in the main, a deliberate revival rather than a continuous tradition, so my earlier comments were likely a wee bit over-cynical. Having said that, it ill behooves Scottish musicians to be too sniffy about "new-fangleness", given the very serious influence of "classical" techniques on Scottish fiddle music in the last hundred years and more...I still suspect just a touch of snobbery in their attitude! On the other hand, I'd go with their definition of a "session". I've never heard sessions described as blood-sports before, but I do see what you mean... Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 08 Aug 00 - 05:40 AM I've been looking around for more information about this Estonian Runic Song business. I wasn't aware that these are made in "Kalevala metre" (used by Longfellow in his Song of Hiawatha); if I have understood correctly, it's the form that can be dated back two to three thousand years, rather than individual songs themselves. That makes a lot more sense to me. The FAQ at SOC.CULTURE.ESTONIA has this to say: "The most original part of Estonian folklore, the runic folksong, originated in the 1st millennium BC, as a result of interaction between primitive Balto-Finnic singing (warbling, keening) and the songs of the Baltic tribes. Runic songs are based on the alternation of long and short syllables. The basic runic verse line is the trochaic tetrameter, with each line generally forming a conceptual whole. A song is constructed by the repetition of the concept of a line of verse in subsequent lines. The words are tied within the verse by alliteration and assonance. There are approximately 3,600 runic song types and 133,000 variations. The tunes have limited scope, but are rich in variations. The oldest are songs with myth themes, keenings, spells and family ballads; when agriculture became established, work and ritual songs with a magic function developed. Most of the surviving songs are from the serfdom period, when the singers were mainly women, and the content female-oriented. Due to the conditions of serfdom, the songs were mainly elegy-style and satirical, rarely is joy or love expressed. In the l9th century, folksongs with rhyming lines became prevalent. These were more male-centered, and there is frequently even some comedy. The tune was more complicated, often accompanied by a musical instrument (zither, violin, concertina)." There is a scholarly article about the verse-form here: LANGUAGE AND POETIC METRE IN REGILAUL There are allegedly some sound samples here, but only in the Estonian language part of the site, so I couldn't find them... Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 08 Aug 00 - 06:13 AM Aha! There appear to be some here: Isuri rahvamuusikast |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: CarolC Date: 08 Aug 00 - 06:22 AM Malcolm D. I can't find anything to disagree with you about re: Carolan and the Scottish musicians, but I surely do appreciate the information. I'm going to save it for some people I know who play the fiddle, Scottish style. Is there some kind of Malcolm-shaped spotlight that I can shine into the sky if I need more of your wonderful music information? Carol |
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