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The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music
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Subject: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Doctor John Date: 04 Aug 00 - 04:30 PM I know my definition of "what is folk music?" is pretty narrow and others have a much wider one but at the Stroud festival "The Glen Miller Orchestra" heads the bill. Great they may be in their own field but I think it would take a very wide definition to include them in "folk". Can anyone beat this for silliness? Dr John |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: MandolinPaul Date: 04 Aug 00 - 04:38 PM A few years ago, the lead singer of Chilliwack played the Ottawa folk festival. Do I win? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:10 PM I'm afraid Dr. John still has the lead, PaulS. Glenn Miller? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: GUEST,Earl Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:18 PM Anyone at this year's Newport Folk Festival |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:25 PM That's the Newport $$$$$ Festival...what do you expect?...(and if singing horses would draw a crowd, they'd be on center stage) The Philidelphia 'Folk' Festival is not far behind |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:27 PM Why, who are these performers that are sooooo horrible? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:34 PM Newport Folk Festival. All fine performers unless you are interested in folk music. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Shanti Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:41 PM I second that question...who is at the Newport Festival this year? I haven't been since the sixties...must have changed an awful lot. How sad. And as far as Glenn Miller's Orchestra being considered "folk"...if you stretch the definition to include not only songs of the people, but songs that PEOPLE liked...guess you can include any of the big bands...they were EXTREMELY popular with the folks in the 30s and 40s. And some of that music kept our boys overseas as happy as they could be, during a war. It was their "folk" music and it held just as fond a spot in their hearts as songs like "Lorena" did during the Civil War. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bernard Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:44 PM I think I win this competition! The daftest inclusion in Folk Music is definitely me! Checkout the 'Manchester - is anybody there?' thread! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Burke Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:44 PM RE Newport: Natalie MacMaster is Folk |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 05:47 PM All the folks there sound ok to me, but then again I'm not an old fogey. I guess people are ticked 'cause Billy Bob and The Haystack Gang couldn't make the show. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: kendall Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:07 PM A few years ago, they had Bo Diddley at the Maine Festival!! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: bbelle Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:22 PM Truthfully ... there's a lot of good people performing. So, they're not "folk" in the strictest form of the word, but they're not schlubbs, either.
And, Matthew ... I take exception of your use of the word "old fogey." To me, that implies someone who resists change and, while there may be a few of those here, many of us, not only don't resist, but welcome it.
moonchild |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 04 Aug 00 - 06:25 PM I have often argued that the definition of folk should be less tight-assed but this is ridiculous. The point is if you have a festival and you call it a "folk" festival you should make sure traditional folk styles are represented then include some token singer/songwriters. Not vice versa. Natalie MacMaster may be folk, Natalie Merchant (a fine pop singer) is not folk by any definition I can imagine. Bela Fleck and the Flecktones would be a good funk band if they lost the banjo, but they are not folk. Peter Rowan knows some folk songs but I'll be he doesn't sing any at Newport. Why not save everyone the aggravation and just drop the F word entirely? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Frankham Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM Everybody knows that it isn't Glen Miller, it's Stan Kenton who is a folk band. Also, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra plays folk Beethoven and folk Bach. Burt Bachrach is also a folk musician as well as Stephen Sondheim. Also, Metallica and Garth Brooks are folk singers. So is Shania Twain. And I have heard horses sing it. Or was that horse's (you know what). Frank
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:39 PM O Frank, you haven't heard ME sing folk Metallica & folk Garth Brooks! Y'all don't know what your missing! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:48 PM Well, Shanti, I would say that's quite a stretch. You're right that Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey, etc. were very popular during WW2, but we thought of them as "Popular" groups, not folk. Burl Ives was folk, Frank Sinatra wasn't. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 04 Aug 00 - 07:56 PM Whoa, Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer is folk now? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 04 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM Is there also a Newport Jazz Festival? This is a different one, right? Or did it replace the jazz festival? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 12:06 AM The jazz fest sucks too |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 07:48 PM and a LOT of the problem in this materialistic age is that musicians, both folk AND jazz, know there is money to be made if they find a 'new' fad....so they experiment and change established 'sounds' in order to put their stamp on it... I realize there's no law aginst putting notes and chords and words in new places, but like cuckoos, they have no shame about laying their eggs in another bird's nest. There is a metaphor, I think, in a comparison to the environmental changes on earth as a whole.....with the gross movements of people, plant life, etc., there is cross-pollenization and introduction of new species into areas at a faster rate than 'normal'...and MANY problems..(killer bees...foreign plants choking the Florida Everglades, fruit flies in California..) Anytime change is gratuitous and rapid, something suffers...The Brazilian rain forest suffers as new farms are burned and hacked out of it every year...and musical styles suffer and are bastardized as new stuff is introduced faster than it can be assimilated easily. Sure..it ALWAYS changes...but the pop culture money machines demand change NOW... It is very much like watching your favorite (ethnic) restaurant change the recipes every few weeks or months, without changing the names of the dishes of the sign in the window....do you really WANT BBQ burritos?..(saw that YESTERDAY!)...and if they add cilantro & goat cheese, they'll STILL shamelessly put 'em in the Mexican food section. Friends..play and sing anything you please...and have a festival for it if you wish...just don't kid yourself or lie to ME about what it is! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DougR Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:00 PM Not sure if I follow all of what you are saying Bill D, are you arguing against improvisation? I am not really into Jazz very much, but I am under the impression that improvisation in Jazz is what it's all about. Not so? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:09 PM no...not about improvization...(not all jazz is improv, but even improv seems to follow certain established 'rules'...improv is a lot about variation on a theme, I believe)...I suspect that a real jazz afficinado would NOT appreciate riffs that were 'too' different. A lot of it is the mood and feel of it all. Young girl singer/songwriters putting their diaries to music DOES have a different feel to it than Scots ballads or Appalachian play-party songs. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:15 PM Well, if you listen to a lot of, say, Robin Laing or Battlefield Band (as I do) you end being a "singer songwriter" who writes songs about Scottish & Irish history. --M |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:19 PM There's no one comparable to the Battlefield Band at Newport. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:25 PM and I LOVED Battlefield Band the first time I heard them....then they started with the fast LOUD stuff so they'd get more college gigs...*sigh*...and soon most of the members were changed...
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:34 PM Oh well boo hoo for you Bill! God forbid a musical group should be able to reinvent themselves every few years. Does nothing please you people? Will you not be happy until everyone in the world is a folk clone singing boring-ass 1000 year old tunes! I got a good quote for you all from Oasis, who I happen to really like: "F*** 'em all, and play what you want."
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 08:35 PM Play what you want, F*** who you want. Just don't call it folk. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:02 PM btw, A thousand year old song would be really cool. Do you know any? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:10 PM Yes, Deirde's Lament for The Sons of Usnach. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:14 PM Care to post the tune for that? |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:15 PM hum a few bars |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:33 PM Ah...Bruce Olson posted the tune in this thread: Ancient Irish Songs; though the story is very old, the tune can be traced back only to the early 19th. century. Obviously it may be much older, but without evidence it's just silly to make assumptions about it. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:33 PM You'll find it here. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:45 PM Thanks for that link; it takes us back a little further. Still seven centuries or so to go, though... |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:47 PM And I heard Dar Williams will be singing at Newport. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:47 PM The poem in Irish Gaelic "Deirdre's Lament For The Songs of Usnach", for which the tune was written, is at least 900 years old (so maybe it's not 1000 years old.) The liner notes from The Cheiftains "Celtic Harp" album name the tune as one of the oldest Irish tunes, going back several hundred years. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:51 PM I don't care what the liner notes say, there are no documented 900 year old tunes. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:58 PM Quite so; the narrative is old; that's not disputed. How old is the melody? "Several hundred years" (just over two hundred according to the available evidence, so add another hundred for luck) doesn't take us very far... |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 05 Aug 00 - 09:59 PM Still a cool song. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 05 Aug 00 - 10:01 PM Absolutely. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Art Thieme Date: 05 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Bill D Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:08 PM "Does nothing please you people? Will you not be happy until everyone in the world is a folk clone singing boring-ass 1000 year old tunes! I got a good quote for you all from Oasis, who I happen to really like: "F*** 'em all, and play what you want." "
...ya know, Matt...you are a bright, talented guy with LOTS of knowlege about a great variety of music..more than me, for sure..but you have a real 'attitude' and you just don't LISTEN sometimes...
I truly get weary of that "you old fogies have had your day...get outta the way, 'cause us young Turks are doin' COOL What you like is not necessarily better or worse than what I like....but if I/we choose NOT to adopt it, then WHY can't we have some little island/oasis/refuge from it? I don't go to a C&W bar and demand they listen to me sing "The Twa Corbies"..(interesting vision, huh? *grin*)...but for 20+ years I have watched pop/rock and folk/rock/ and SSW wannabes try to swarm EVERY tiny venue where people tried to keep 'some' semblance of traditional music going...it is hijacking, pure & simple. Sometimes they just don't understand, but ususally it is just a case of .."I don't WANT to acknowlege those distinctions, as it would cramp my style and make me think before I sing"... ...and truth to tell, I don't expect my petulant grumping to make much difference, but somehow, it feels better than just quietly slinking back into the shadows when you make remarks like that quoted at the beginning of this post...."folk clones?"...not likely..."boring-ass?" ..perhaps to you, but that was a step over the line....I have NEVER called YOUR music names, only suggested that it didn't all suit me, and that it sometimes clashed with the situation.. ah, well..it is a free forum, Max tells us...bad taste and /or judgement is as welcome as anything...
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:23 PM It's called teen angst. So far in my life it's never surfaced. Be glad mine is only about music! --Matt (defender of ALL musical styles) |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Jeri Date: 05 Aug 00 - 11:38 PM Bill D, thanks. You put it much better than I did before I erased it. I don't like most of the schtick-of-the-month, trendy, buy-it-because-we-say-it's-cool stuff. I listen to and like some rock. Mean-spirited comments about people's musical preferences is a lot less tolerant than simply not liking a certain kind of music. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: DonMeixner Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:32 AM I like to play and sing. I am an entertainer. The music I chose to entertain with is often in a folkish style. No body aat a festival seems to complain when I play a song like "Rye Whiskey Joe" on the same card as "Roddy McCorley" or "Lilly The Pink" with "Twa Corbies". Now and then I'll play something widly out of place like "Begin the Beguine". It ain't folk but is fun and people are entertained which is my job. But reference to the title: When was the last time that Bluegrass was at The Telluride Bluegrass Festival? Don |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: Mbo Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:48 AM Well I've been saying I'm a loser for months, yet no one ever believes me. BELIEVE IT! |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: RWilhelm Date: 06 Aug 00 - 02:40 AM I love music and I love a lot of musical styles though those around me might say that I only talk about what I hate. With American country music there has always been an establishment and always been people who succeeded rebelling against the establishment. Whether its Hank Williams or Lucinda Williams the establishment has to open up and embrace the rebels. But American country, like it or not, has always been bullshit. The first stars of the Grand Ol Opry were vaudeville performers playing the roll of country bumpkins. Country is just a Billboard category like R&B, MOR, AOR, etc. What makes folk different (or should) is that, by definition, it refers to a great body of singing and playing that goes back … well at least three hundred years. Is there room for innovation? Of course, otherwise we would all be singing the same damned song. All music is influenced by folk music (you know about the horses, right?) When people rebel in folk it means they leave folk behind and start something new. Dylan hasn't called himself a folksinger in years. In a recent interview Joni Mitchell said she always considered herself a cabaret singer. If she had said that thirty years ago maybe we would be talking about the Newport Cabaret Festival. Play what you want, I'll listen, just don't call if folk unless it is. |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: CarolC Date: 06 Aug 00 - 03:37 AM Ok, Malcom Douglas, I've got one for you. It's not quite 1000 years old, but it's close. "O adiutor", by Bishop Ato from the 12th century. It's probably liturgical, so maybe it's not really folk, but hey, what's a thousand years between friends? CarolC |
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Subject: RE: The Daftest Inclusion in 'Folk' Music From: CarolC Date: 06 Aug 00 - 03:54 AM Excuse me, Malcolm Douglas. I just got so excited I couldn't spell straight. Carol |
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