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BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
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Subject: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:48 AM I've been a professional astrologer for a bunch o' years (though not as long as I've been singing), and one of my major interests is research into various populations and how they map out astrologically. I'm interested in setting up a study-- purely for fun and my own 'satiable curiosity-- to see if the traditional associations of planetary influences show up in musician's charts. I'm looking for correlates to particular astrological influences related to: Style of music played Instrument played Singer Song (or tune) writer Professional Non-Professional Long-time musician New to music (Useful to know the age you were when you started doing what you do, but not necessary) Prefer to play in a group Prefer to play alone motivation for playing music (optional!) What I need from you in order to do a birthchart is date, time and place of birth. I do not want or need to know your name (though you might want to choose one to go with the chart) or any other identifying information. I suggest that you send me any info in a personal message, not via this thread. There are hundreds of possible astrological factors that can show up in a chart that could be related to musical talent and I will be looking at those for commonalities. As a professional (since 1980-- the previous 10 years I did it just for fun) I am committed to confidentiality. Also I'm prepared to mail you hard copy of the chart itself-- though I wouldn't have time to read them all for everyone. And I'll share the results (ie 80% of guitar players had Neptune in the 10th house of career) with the forum. If you need to know more about what I do I have a website. Thanks for your time. Bearheart |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Sorcha Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:06 AM Cool! I can do that, will PM you.........sounds neat. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: katlaughing Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:45 AM Sounds very interesting, BearHeart, may we please have a link or addy for your website? Or, if you prefer, by PM? Here's an interesting tidbit just for starters: all five siblings and my parents are all very musical - 4 Aries daughters; Leo- son; Taurus- father; and Mom was a Pisces! Quite a combo! I will PM you later today. Would like to see your website. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: kendall Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:18 AM How can I send you a pm with no info in the resources? |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: MMario Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:26 AM kendall - you can send a personal message since he is a member. Go to your personal pages, select "send a message" and type in bearheart. it's e-mail we can't do without additional info... |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: kendall Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:26 AM I figured that out..thought I deleted my post. thanks |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:52 PM had a friend ask me for those stats once. She had this BIG book...I told her & she looked me up as I was saying.."but you know, I don't really put much stock in those things" "Yes", she replied. "that's JUST what your profile says you'd say!" I give up..... |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 16 Aug 00 - 02:34 PM Thanks to the folks who have responded so far. My webpage is: http://www.frognet.net/~healing/ So Bill D I'd REALLY like to see your chart! Sceptics are my favorites (much rubbing of hands) because I was one once -- a long time ago-- and prided myself on it. But I prefer them to be open-minded sceptics. The only real scientists are those willing to accept new data. MMario-- I'm a female Bearheart. The best kind--we don't let any one mess with our cubs, or anyone else we like! Especially when we have four planets in Cancer! An easy mistake to make... Hugs, Bearheart |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: katlaughing Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM Nice website, Bearheart. we have a lot in common interest-wise! I'll be in touch, kat |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Jim Krause Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:41 PM OK, I'll bite, too. Although there is some little niggling voice inside me that keeps saying "Don't divulge too much, now Soddy." |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Mbo Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:49 PM It's a well-known fact that Sagittarians are naturally gifted as music. Like me 'n you-know-who. Dick Clark also agrees. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:00 PM ...but why Astrology and not Phrenology or Tarot or Palmistry or Tea Leaves or Haruspexy?..(entrails of a goat, I believe) and you are new, so you didnt see the post I made to another thread about Bisba, a book I have that purports to read WOMENS character by the shape & size of their breasts....do wonder that I am kept busy almost full time just being a proper sceptic? *big grin*...an energetic, eclectic, hectic sceptic, I am.... |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Irish Rover Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM Hi Bearheart, I was born 4/5/47 in Lurgan co. Armagh N.Ireland @9:30 AM do what you will with that. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Irish Rover Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM Sorry, I hit the send button too soon. Ive been playing music since I was 7 I sing, play 12-string guitar, 5-string banjo, plectrum banjo, bodrahn(in public) and all woodwind ints.in the orchestra. My forte is Irish/scots folk. I speak five languages, have two Masters in Psyc. spent twentyfour years in U.S. military. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Shanti Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:49 PM Hey Irish Rover, I'm an April '47 person myself. Sounds as if you're way more musically accomplished than I, but I LOVE Irish and Scots music, and sing it rather well. Why did you want two Masters degrees in Psych? And with all of your musical talent, why the military? I know, I'm being nosy...so I'll understand if you don't want to answer. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: katlaughing Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:46 PM Sheesh, a preponderance of Aries already! My sisters, who are twins, were also born April/'47! |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Escamillo Date: 17 Aug 00 - 01:08 AM Bill D, I support you in your scepticism. However I'm not an open-minded sceptic, but a locked-minded beast of the worst class in reference to astrology, UFOlogy, and misterious energies, so I'm not sure wether I can be of any help to you ! :)) Un abrazo - Andrés |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 17 Aug 00 - 01:56 AM This IS fun! Didn't realize I'd raise so much comment. I will tell you my first success story as an amateur astrologer. When I was 19 (5 years into my studies of astrology) I was having this sceptic discussion with a fellow student, whom I had known for some years, and who considered himself a scientist (he was also a musician and later left the sciences and went into threater, but that's another story...) So I said," get birth data for someone you know that I don't know. He decided to pick his current love interest. We set up a time and I read her chart. I described her physical characteristics-- weight, height, hair color, eye color and something of her general shape and bone structure, etc. Then I went on to tell him about her character. He never argued with me about astrology again. Of course I was young and foolish and into taking dares.I don't do that stuff any more. But if you ever meet a guy named Jeff Green, born in Athens Ohio on May 2 1954, ask him about it. And tell him to look me up. It's been too many years... By the way, if you haven't lost interest: Irish Rover, thank you for the stats, and you can always post this stuff to my personal page if you don't want it public. Irish/Scottish music is my great love too. But I'm very basic on the instruments(harp, guitar and in the past mandolin and bouzouki)-- I mostly sing... all the time...When I'm not talking. Kat I'm waiting to hear from you... Bill D I've actually made a study of a number of "divination" systems, and have read the Tarot for almost as long as I've done astrology. I even teach other people how. But astrology is much easier to do stat analysis with, and it is more than a predictive system, it can be used for self exploration. In fact the best astrologers out there are often psychologists and counselors who have found they can use it for insight with their clients. When I see someone in my practice who is going through a major Pluto transit, I know that he/she is going through big transitions/transformations. And I can often help with it-- to get over the rough places and figure out what the experience might mean. As far as Bisba goes: well, maybe there's something to it, but if it works for women then it also works for men (the shape and size of...?); but I think there might be ethical issues for practitioners of THAT system... and UFOs- well, I'm essentially a practical person. I like astrology and Tarot because these things have taught me a lot about myself and how to get on with others in the world, and I can help people with them, but also they have saved me time, headaches and pointless struggle. I'm a busy person and anything that helps me take care of the mundane stuff more effortlessly is all to the good. I don't discount the possibility of various phenomena but I really don't have time for it. What interests me are people. Astrology is mostly a people thing. Well, that's more than enough. Isn't there a button on these things that farts when you've talked too much?
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Sourdough Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:41 AM I remember seeing Randi, the magician, on PBS once. He gave every one in a college classroom a copy of their horoscope he had worked out. As you would expect, a number of people in the class thought of themselves as skeptics but when they read their horoscopes, they were really impressed with the specificity of their readings. They thought that Randi had nailed their personalities in his reading. Then Randi asked each person to pass their reading on to the classmate next to them. You guessed it. The readings were all identical. Every person in the class had read the exact same piece of paper. Randi's point was that it is possible to write in a way that is ambiguous enough for people to fill in with what they want to hear, whether it is good or bad that they expect. It was a very striking piece of television. Other students of human nature have noticed how hard wired we seem to be looking for patterns. I think that may be a part of it, too. I made a proposal to NOVA a while back to do a study of such things as the birth dates of members of Congress. There are enough similarities in what you have to do to be elected, be a leader, raise money, etc. I thought it would be interesting to see what we came up with. There is a guy who is now on ABC television as their science reporter, Michael Guillen, who has written a lot on how we fool ourselves by innaccurate observation. IHe had been a leader of a skeptic's group of highly trained scientists who were investigating paranormal claims. I think deep down they wanted to be convinced that there were special forces at work but they have never found anything that stands up to their knowledge of statistics, physics, bilogy, linguistics, etc. I wanted to work with him and his group and he was willing. I thought it would have been interesting bit of television but Paula Apsell, the Exec. Producer of Nova apparently didn't. Ah, well. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:23 PM Not to belabor the point, but when I see a client they are either in crisis or not in crisis. Can't tell you how many people (at least 2 dozen) that I've seen in the last two years with Pluto stressfully transiting their Suns-- every one was having a major crisis as described by that combination. Sun can equal the father (in the case of women also their male partner), other male authority figures, but also the Self, particularly as it relates to creativity, but also in terms of physical strength and well-being. Pluto equals issues of power/powerlessness, depression, loss (of someone or something in their lives but also of control over some aspect of their lives-- ie powerlessness), abandonment, grief and death but also rebirth, sexuality, healing. These clients were experiencing typical stuff for this combination: death of the father, power struggles with male bosses, suicidal feelings, health issues that they had no control over (usually in this case the 6th house which signifies physical health was involved), relationship issues (mostly women clients whose husbands were experiencing the Pluto stuff-- loss, death etc-- for them). Likewise a few (myself included) chose to do something empowering and freeing with their lives and experienced the good part of these challenging transits-- owning themselves in a new way, having a rebirth of the self. I decided to follow a lifelong dream and become a massage therapist (Pluto also is one of the signatures of healing). One is never at the mercy of these things-- you can always choose how you react to the death of a parent, a psycho boss, or a spouse who cheats on you, or your own internal struggles. The chart is just a signpost to help you be more self aware, and to get the best out of your life. And sure there are human sheep out there who will believe anything. If you want to benefit from this stuff you have to be willing to take a good hard look at who you really are. And if you are going to benefit from astrology, you need to do the same as you would with a doctor or psychologist. Invest some time and energy in finding someone who knows what he/she is doing and cares about you. Most reputable astrologers I know of are not doing it for the money. I do not encourage my clients to come to me on a repeat basis. Once every two or three years is more than adequate, and then only if there's really big stuff going on for them. I am not sorry if I don't ever see a client again, because that means he/she got what was needed. I don't want my clients to depend on me--- the whole point is for it to make you stronger, more in touch with your power to be who you are. Sorry if this sounds like preaching--- I am passionate about my desire to help others. And I'm not blind to the ways in which the metaphysical/mystical has been used unethically or stupidly. But if your doctor misdiagnoses you or prescribes back surgery when you don't need it, you don't say, "Gee allopathic medicine doesn't work." No, you sue him/her and find another doctor! Or better yet, you find a really good massage therapist who can actually fix the problem, not treat the symptom! End of lecture...
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:26 PM PS I'm seeing clients and at a workshop in Chicago this weekend (leaving soon) so if you try to contact me here or with a PM I won't get it till next Wed. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 00 - 02:46 PM ...so..every baby born in Mercy Hospital in Denver, Colorado on May 20, 1939 (especially if they were born near 5:34AM)is disposed to react to life the same way I am? *sigh*..perhaps best we discuss Scottish songs...I love them too. when I read... "if you are going to benefit from astrology, you need to do the same as you would with a doctor or psychologist. Invest some time and energy in finding someone who knows what he/she is doing and cares about you."...I want to pound the table and shout!...*IF* you expect to 'benefit' from this, then you are already predisposed to it...people hate wasting their time, and they FIND answers that satisfy, as noted in the "Amazing Randi" story above. I have no doubt you care and are sincere, but gaining insight from the relative positions of astronomical phenomena requires 'faith'...there *IS NO PROOF*... One of the most enlightening reads of my life was Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer"...an analysis of the 'will to believe' in many people...Kierkegaard emphasized that this is how we MUST do religion...you do not 'prove' God...you make the 'leap of faith'...and thereby gain something that pedantic 'truth seekers' can't get... Ah, well...as you can see, I am a hard case....off to do some music.... |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Mbo Date: 17 Aug 00 - 03:05 PM Can you tell me why in the hell my life is falling apart? |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: SINSULL Date: 17 Aug 00 - 03:09 PM BillD, I was with you on this until recently reading some explanation of "string theory" which purports that all matter is made of vibrating strings - every atom, every ion is vibrating and reacting to the vibrations of other matter. Anyone is free to jump in here to elaborate, correct, whatever. If this is true, then it follows that the vibrations of planets, stars, etc.,would have an impact on us from the time of conception. Of course, the distance and position of the planets in relation to each other would figure into the equation. Wonder if the position of the doctor and nurses in the delivery room plays into this - must. And the sexual position at the moment of conception??? New Theory - if you want to produce a "folkie" use the missionery postion.Bearheart - sorry for the vagaries. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Peg Date: 17 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM wow...cool thread. I am an amateur astrologer meself and would love to get in on this; will PM you the info later on... peg Libra/Scorpio solar cusp (October 23, 1963, 1:06 pm EST), Capricorn rising, Capricorn Moon, Neptune/Venus conjunction in Scorpio... |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Irish Rover Date: 17 Aug 00 - 04:47 PM Shanti, not to put to fine a point on it I WAS DRAFTED! when it came time to get out they said no! the constitution says 8 yrs mil service. they held me for the full 8 but let me study. part of my job in the mil. was as a profiler, so I studied abnormal psyc.( which is why I love this site) then I had enough credits to also get my masters in sex and family counciling so I took it. cause I only look stupid. got them from berkely should have seen me in class with my high tight hair, it started several fights, they wanted to fight me because of my hair but not to serve their country. also I come from N.Ireland, became a citizen of this great free country and was pleased and proud to serve as I was needed to EARN my freedom and rights. and if you don't think your free here I'll be happy to relate about 1000 stories of other countrys I been in, including N.I. so to make a loooooooooong story short dats why. I hope this dose not sound too pissy, I don't mean it that way. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Naemanson Date: 17 Aug 00 - 05:09 PM I hate to rain on your parade Mbo but life is always falling apart for everyone. At least it is for me too. I think there is an entropy that only affects our lives. Sinsull, I have a friend who would gladly explain string theory but can't without using higher mathematics. He has tried to explain it to me but it makes my head hurt and I take pride in being one who tries to follow the developments in the various scientific fields. As physics gets closer to the basic underpinning of the universe it seems to approach the pseudosciences in aspect. The difference, of course, is that the scientists are continuing to question their theories and design experiments to prove or disprove them. Pseudoscience doesn't. In pseudoscience the explanation is accepted as fact without question or proof. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Jeri Date: 17 Aug 00 - 05:59 PM Well, I'm about as big a skeptic as anyone, but I'm not going to get defensive about it, nor berate others for believing. There are a lot worse things to believe. Irish Rover, I also spent 24 years in the military as a Public Health Technician. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: GUEST,Astro fan Date: 17 Aug 00 - 06:19 PM |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Fortunato Date: 17 Aug 00 - 06:47 PM Hello Bearheart, I was born on 2/27/46 at 3am in Washington, DC. Styles of music played (chronologically): Country;Folk Revival;Blues;Old Time;Swing;Roots Rock;Early country. Instrument played: Guitar Song writer: Yes. Professional: Yes, but only for fun most years. Long-time musician: Yes Prefer to play in a group: slight preference Motivation for playing music: self-actualization I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm skeptical, but then this year the Republicans are the party of inclusion (Are you dancing Bo'Jangles?) so I guess anything is possible. Regards and best wishes, Fortunato |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Crowhugger Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:11 PM Mbo, Yes: because it isn't holding together as it is now. Have you tried changing one or more things, for the better of course? Fellow-skeptics, As an open-minded skeptic myself, I wonder if blood pressure existed before someone figured out how to measure it. I'm starting to think that we each enter the doors with which we're familiar when we need to find understand something. CH. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Mbo Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:14 PM Like dropping classes, maybe? ;-( |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:05 AM This is getting better and better! Thanks everybody for participating, wherever you are coming from. And thanks to the folks that continue to give me data to work with. Just to set the record straight, being born on the same day at the exact same time as another person doesn't mean you will be exactly the same-- didn't I say once already we all have free will???? But it is true that in the case of astrological twins (the technical term among astrologers) it is amazing how often they get married (to different people of course), have babies and do other significant similar things (in one case buying red cars) at the same time (no not to the minute). But astro twins are really pretty rare. Bill D would like to have a conversation with you sometime that was not limited to the forum... it's a bit limiting /frustrating to discuss such complex subjects this way. For those who are interested in the Science/"Pseudo"science debate there are some interesting articles available by more articulate astrologers than I. Some are physicists working in the field. Let me know if you want the resources... I'm off to Chicago for real now...
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Brendy Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:13 AM It is amazing, and I'm sure way above the national average, how many 'double Aquarians' live in and around The Burren in County Clare, in Ireland. B. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM Oh I forgot, Peg I need your birth place. Yes please a PM is very good... Bill D thanks for the stats. Fortunato, that's EXACTLY what I need. Thank you so much!!!! All of you who gave me data (or are thinking about it) it's actually easier for me to print out and keep a record of it with the birthchart if you PM me... |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Alice Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:22 AM Sourdough, you took the words right out of my mouth. Unfortunately, as Randi found in his experiement with the students, even when he explained cold reading and pattern seeking, they didn't want to understand. This is unfortunately part of the lack of general understanding of statistics, probablility, and gullability, as well as ignorance of the true history of astrology. Check it out: Astrology Fact Sheet Andrés, I knew we could see eye to eye! |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Escamillo Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:36 AM "This is getting better and better! " - Well, I'm beginning to feel a little.. (how could I say?) .. uncomfortable. I respect all the different classes of beleifs, faith and mysticism as far as they are not commercialized or presented as an alternative to science. You may see or not what I'm seeing, but this time I´ll be out of the discussion, to which my poor knowledge can't contribute very much. Un abrazo - Andrés |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bagpuss Date: 18 Aug 00 - 05:58 AM I'm a sceptic. But being a sceptic means having an open mind. I believe most of astrology is to do with people wanting to believe in it. Some recent research suggested that because astrology is so well known, people actually become more like their star sign, or emphasise those parts of their character that are in keeping with there star sign. Also, I forget the reference, but some guy was trying to disprove astrology, and when he got the results back, they came out in favour of astrology! I think it was to do with time of year you were born, and occupation. Another thing I can't seem to bring myself to believe in, but seems to work really well is Kabalarian name analysis. I went to the website and checked my name, and it came out so much like me that it was scary. I thought it was just a spooky coincidence, so I decided to do a blind test to find out. I took the name of a colleague and 9 of her relatives and put the names through the website. I then deleted the names from them and gave them to her and asked her to match them up to herself and her relatives. She got 8 out of 10 correct. Also I did my bosses name, and it was hilariously correct! If anyone else wants to try this out the site is www.kabalarians.com Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Bearheart Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:40 AM Mbo, Please check your PM. Bearheart |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: katlaughing Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:42 AM Sorry, Bagpuss, I just tried it, with a very open mind, and it was pretty off base on two or three that I tried, including mine. To me, atrology, the tarot, ec. are tools. As Bearheart said, we all have free will. I beleve we can use them as tools for indications and helpful guidance....remember all things in moderation makes for good balance. My brother, who is a classical composer, teaches classes on sacred geometry and music, specifically about the *giant string* and the tones of the planets. When I get more time, later today, I will post some of what he has written. Some may choose to call it psuedo-science. Others call it new science and, in fact, have an annual International Forum for New Sceince in Ft. Collins, CO, at which my brother was a guest speaker one year. BTW, Bearheart, one of the things he does when he gives classes is to compose a tune for each person, based on their birthdate and the tones of the planets involved. Now, before any more sceptics weigh in, please be respectful of others beliefs, whether you believe there is any scientific merit or not. Thank you. kat |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Jeri Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:20 AM Aw, Kat, beliefs are all unproven anyway. No one's is more right than anyone else's, and they're all right for the believer. I wouldn't call a thing "science" unless there were proof, since that's what makes science science. Even then, some of the things that have been proven have turned out to be wrong. (Hey, this is almost the same as arguing about what is "folk" music! AAARRGH!!!) There are some things that may find roots in science, but I don't think astrology is one of them. For one thing, the constellations are in different relative positions now than when astrology first began. My memory from astronomy class on this is vague, though. I'm having one heck of a time figuring out that guy on SciFi channel - John somebody in a series called "Crossing Over." Has anyone seen this show? I tried the name site Bagpuss posted, and about half of the comments were dead on. Half were dead off. Said I'd do well in sales - tried and hated it - and I had an intense nature. Haha! Also said I could be irritable. (Who, me?) What human does that not apply to? Jeri, an open-minded (I hope) skeptic. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: GUEST,Tommi Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:43 AM It just doesn't make sense to me that astrological charts are figured from time of birth and not time of conception. The alignment of the planets, stars, black holes, etc., should have an effect from birth. Just because one is "inside" the mother, shouldn't matter one whit. After all, people are inside many things that should have more of a shielding effect than layers of skin and muscle. Don't Eastern astrologers figure the charts from time of conception? Makes much more sense. Skeptic (hardly sceptic, but maybe septic)?? You bet! People, who need to feel an outside force is in charge, tend to believe anything that keeps them from accepting responsibility for their own lives: the devil made me do it, it was in the stars, it is genetic, and so on and on.
That old crone I went through a period, as a small child, of ardently believing in predestination. My mother said I fell in the creek and came out a hard-shell Baptist. Well, to quote a song done by Win Strake on an album of humorous religious songs: A hard shell is better than no shell a'tall. No longer believe in predestination, preordination or any of the other pre-done-its, but I kept the hard shell. Prove it, please. Cold, hard facts.
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Turtle Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:49 AM Here's my take, for what it's worth: astrology is a tool. It doesn't require either belief, or proof. I don't know whether or not I "believe in" astrology. The question for me is, is it helpful? Does it help me understand myself better or get through difficult times or work better with other people? Is the tool useful to me in a given situation? Not all tools are helpful for all people in all situations. You can use an axe or a crosscut or a chainsaw to cut down a tree. If you choose a chainsaw, you don't say you don't believe in the axe. You say it doesn't work for you. Another way to think about astrology (and tarot) is as a series of metaphors. You don't have to take it as literal truth for it to be useful. Maybe a tarot reading isn't predictive at all; maybe you read into it what you already really know at some level. Nonetheless it can clarify your understanding through image, metaphor and story, just as fairy tales (or folk songs!) do, for example. Metaphor isn't helpful to everyone, either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Turtle |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: katlaughing Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:53 AM Excellent way of putting it, Turtle! Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Sourdough Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:24 PM All right, let's say that there IS a relationship between date of birth and occupation. Let's, for the sake of argument, say that there seems to be a statistically significantly difference in the scattering of occupations, with clusters in certain signs. Now, what does that mean? Would that be proof of the power of the stars to influence human destiny? I'll bet there are people following this thread who might be able to come up with alternative explanations. Synchronicity in itself does not prove causation, right? I had the terrific opportunity to have this demonstrated to me by perhaps the most qualified person in the world to do so, a psychologist named BF Skinner. He had developed cages inevitably called "Skinner boxes" in which he placed pigeons. The thing that made the boxes special was that they had little machines in them, feeders controlled by pressure bars. It didn't take long before the pigeons figured out, "Press the bar, get food in the chute". Very quickly, the birds learned to hit the bar with their beaks and then, without waiting, to go over to the dish and get the food that had just dropped. They would go back and forth, Press, Eat, Press, Eat. THey would do this as long as they were hungry. Then Dr. Skinner changed the rule. It took three times to hit the bar before the food came out. For a while, the birds pressed the lever and looked for food. When nothing happened they tried again, and then again. Having gotten the reward, they were willing to try again but were still puzzled for a while. However, they figured the pattern out and once again they got it down to a system. This time it was, Press, Press, Press, Eat. They would do this without stopping, fully confident that after three presses, the food would be in the dish. Now here is where it gets interesting. He set the payback on Random. No longer was there a pattern. So what did the birds do? They tried to impose a pattern based on their individual observations. For instance, a bird that hit the lever a couple of times with nothing happening might pause and having nothing better to do at the moment, scratch the side of its head with its left foot. By chance, the next time it pressed the bar, food came down. The bird was encouraged to think that the combination of pressing the bar and scratching its head was "the key". Of course, it didn't work the next time, but something else might give the illusion of providing the answer, perhaps turning around in place. What you ended up with was a cage full of pigeons going through all sorts of rituals they had made up in the hope that they had gained control of an important and essential (but random) activity in their lives. Skinner feels, or felt, rather, that he could see similar things going on in our own species. For instance, he thought that gamblers reacted this way. That is why there are all of the rituals related to gambling. I think some of you may think of other applications where you see this same dynamic at work. Anyway, I have always remembered that afternoon with Dr. Skinner and the lesson I learned. It seemed appropriate to share it here. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: dwditty Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:10 PM 10 of Clubs....only kidding. >br> dw |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: GUEST,davewilkes Date: 19 Aug 00 - 01:23 AM Astrology is bunk. My main question to a so-called "Professional Astrologer" is, "Are you self-deluded or a fraud?" Every time astrology is subjected to scientific investigation it is unable to predict or corelate anything. See the Skeptical Inquirer for one source of clear thinking about the fraud called astrology. |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: hesperis Date: 19 Aug 00 - 01:27 AM I would love to participate here, but I haven't the particulars of my time of birth. I'm a Sagittarius, Capricorn AS (somewhere between 26 and 29 deg, I think), Venus in Scorpio in either 9th or 10th house, Saturn in Virgo in 7th or 8th house, Jupiter in Leo in the 7th, Moon in Aries in 3rd or 4th house, Stellium of Mercury, Sun, Neptune, in the 11th house and possibly Mars in that too, unless it's in the 12th... That's all I know. Will that be enough? ~*hesperis*~ |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: Alice Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:31 AM Turtle, your point that you believe without proof is exactly what skeptics and writers on this subject have been saying, such as the recent book by Michael Schermer, "Why People Believe".
People find comfort in believing they have understanding and control of something that is actually a mystery, beyond human understanding. Even if the belief is proven to be false, they continue to want to believe, as Sourdough pointed out, because it gives many a sense of comfort.
On the other hand, there are those, like the true mystics and skeptics, who realize that reality is beyond words, beyond human concepts, and at some point we have to say "we do not know, it is a mystery".
I used to believe in astrology so much that I thought I could do people's past life readings, channeling spirit guides, and because I am good at dissociation and have a great imagination, I could write great stories that people could relate to. They paid me $30 a pop to give them channeled past life readings from their natal astrology chart.... SO, I've been on both sides of the fence on this issue, and believe me, I had a wake up call that made me research this and other new age topics very seriously, and I can now say, "The symbols of astrology, tarot, or any other method of fortune telling or casting a personality chart have nothing to do with who we are."
Our human minds are wired to project symbols and patterns on everything we see, just like pictures in the clouds or driftwood looking like recognizable shapes.
I am happy to now find mystery where I used to project metaphorical answers, and my view of reality is much more profound and awesome than when I thought I could define my own and other's lives by astrology.
When I believed things just because they gave me comfort, like astrology, I limited my understanding of the world, myself, and others, to a system that categorizes and labels us all in boxes and groups, not really the way individual humans are. We are all much more unique, our lives, personalities, are much more random and unpredictable than astrology defines.
I am very glad I no longer view myself or others through the lense of astrology symbols. It is a great disservice to ourselves and others to limit our view of who we are based on such a label. But, thinking we have a pat definition gives some people comfort. To me, it is stifling of our own uniqueness. My mother taught me not to conform without questioning. I'm glad I woke up and questioned why I believed.
Here is an interesting article called THE BELIEF ENGINE.
quote in part...
By the way, the wake-up call for me was to be engaged to a man who was in a new age church that used astrology in its beliefs. When his three year old daughter was raped by her stepfather, it was covered up by the group (which I now know is a cult) and the victim was blamed for it being in her karma and astrology to have to be raped, owing the rapist a karmic debt. How crazy can it get... I then and there began re-examining everything I had started to believe that could be used to project explanations or rationalizations, including astrology. I did not belong to this group that he did, and I was one of the only people trying to get the county attorney to take the molestor to trial. The cult had alot of power, paying big taxes to the county on their real estate. The man got off with being told to get some counseling.
Now maybe you understand why I question WHY people believe what they do, because it does not always bode well for them or their children, when the beliefs are not based on fact. Alice |
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Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters From: katlaughing Date: 19 Aug 00 - 02:07 PM Alice, I understand how that must have been a terrible experience and how it would make you very wary of these types of things. I am sorry you had to experience that and do not, in anyway, agree with what happened. Clearly that was a misuse of astrology, the teachings of reincarnation and karma, as well. However NOT all new age/new thought/metaphysical orgs. are cults, nor do they guide their lives slavishly by astrology or what-have-you. Many, such as Unity School of Christianity, which has bene around for over 100 years, interpret the Bible metaphysically/symbolically and live their lives as any other loving Christian might do. Alice, you said, "like the true mystics and skeptics, who realize that reality is beyond words, beyond human concepts, and at some point we have to say "we do not know, it is a mystery". I agree with you on that. True mystics however will not shun tools which have been shown to give some insight into those mysteries. The Native American belief is that each person travels around their zodiacal charts, becoming first their birth sign, then progressing around the circle of signs. Whether anyone believes in it or not, I do not think it is right for people to make blanket statements nor to make assumptions about how any of us who have stated our belief in astrology choose to apply it OR NOT, in our lives. Hard scientists will never believe anything we try to prove, as they are predisposed to not be open-minded. (*running for cover*) That is no worse a derisive accusation aimed at someone believing in the cards or anything else just because they want to. If one were really interested, they could get into some of the more esoteric teachings which include scientific experiments to prove such cosmic laws to the student and then see what they think of astrology as a tool. Working for balance, kat |