BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??

Subject: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Pseudolus
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 04:59 PM

I don't consider myself a songwriter per se but I have written a couple in my day and even perform some of them in public. My wife had a significant birthday last saturday and I can't tell you how old cause it might embarrass her but it's somewhere between 29 and 31. Anyway, I had been trying to write her a song for the last couple months and I hated everything I came up with, until Saturday afternoon. I got my act together and wrote it down and finished it incredibly quickly. I was pretty happy with the result but one section of the chorus bothered me and I couldn't figure out why. In any case I sang it for her, she loved it, and that night we had a surprise party for her at a local Irish Pub. It was there that I figured out why that part of the chorus bother me. Half way through the singer's version of the Fields of Athenry, I realized that there were three lines I had copied note for note!! I guess that's what happens when you're in a hurry. I've since changed it and I'm still happy with it but I was a little embarrassed when I realized what I had done. Anything like this happen to anyone else out there?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 05:37 PM

Not exactly the same, but try listening to Farewell to Reason and Carolan's Captain O'Kane. I may have heard Captain O'Kane and gotten it stuck someplace in my head before I wrote FtoR - I honestly don't remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 06:02 PM

All the time. It's not stealing. Tunes float around and adapt and develop according to the way the wind is blowing. We're just vehicles for them. If you think you've made up a tune that's totally original, either you're deluding yourself, or it's probably a lousy tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Callie
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:23 PM

I accidentally stole Charles Mingus' "Nodding Ya Head Blues". Once I realised (well after our performance was over) I was crushed! I thought it was funny though that no-one else picked up on it (neither musicians nor audience).

Callie

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: hesperis
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:35 AM

The one time I've noticed that I did steal something, was when I was playing around with improvising on the piano, and I recorded my session, just to see what would come up. Well, right in the middle, there were about two bars that sounded exactly like something from The Nutcracker!
The really strange thing was that it sounded so similar, you could almost hear the orchestral instruments playing it, and it was just me on my pee-ah-noe. Neither of my parents heard it until I pointed it out, and there was a
definite difference between it and the stuff before and after.

Every time I write something, I am scared I've just stolen it from something else...
That is just something we tunesmiths have to put up with, I guess.
There was a thread on copyright in rec.music.makers.songwriting once, and somebody said that if you only take a small part of something else, and not deliberately, and there's different words, and the rest of the song is different, and the part you "took" isn't obviously from something else, that it was ok, and wasn't an infringement of copyright.
I don't know if that is true, but there are only 12 semitones in the musical language, and there's only so much you can do with that, really.

I guess that raises the question of how to decide what is allowable: how much of a piece is obviously from something else, and how much is just 'musical influence'.

Thank goodness chords aren't copyrighted. We'd all be sunk for sure.

(Please forgive my grammar. I just got home from work, and I really should be sleeping...)

hesperis

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:45 AM

Once upon a time, about two decades ago, we did a coffee house in San Diego. After the concert, a friend took us quietly aside and said, "You plagarized the tune to one of the songs you did." We asked which one and from where and she correctly pointed out we had stolen it from another song we had written!

Well, if your going to plagarize, you might as well steal from the very best!

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Lox
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:50 AM

Same seven notes
and some old poets quotes
stick them together
with glue

You can mix a fine cocktail
from memories
and pretend what you're drinking
is new

(chorus)

But there's nothing that's new under heaven
there's nothing that hasn't been done
so pour me another double cliche
cos you can't write a song
that's never been sung
No you can't write a song
that's never been sung

Everyones stealing from someone
burglars get burgled as well
there's nothing that's new under heaven
there's nothing unique over hell

(chorus)

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:51 AM

I don't think so. I have stolen some deliberately, though. Then I work out some harmony lines to them and make that the melody, tinker with it a bit, and PRESTO! brand new song. I recommend this method.

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: GUEST,B. Dylan
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 04:38 AM

Nope. Not me.
Well...not accidentally.
-Bobby D-

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 05:10 AM

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. Its either different enought to stand on its own - or else its a variation or a reference. But then again I'm not proffessional & so I don't have to conform to any standards or ettiquette. I would thinks its OK & part of the famed folk process?

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:58 AM

I'm exactly in agreement with Little Hawk as to how to write a song. Thing is, I'm not an original thinker--doubt I would be writing trad-style songs if I were one. And what usually inspires me to write a song is ...another song (or live performance). The challenge is to accept this as a starting point, then make it your own song. Sometimes there are multiple influences.

For example my song "The Anna Grace"--that of course is a blue clicky to the mp3 page of same--although it was inspired by the works of Stan Rogers and this is easy to spot, the melody is really a variant of "Loch Lomond", which nobody ever seems to notice without me telling them.

To come up with the instrumental bridge in that song, though, I said to myself "What would Gordon Bok do here?" Probably something more sophisticated than I did, but I'm happy with it.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 10:00 AM

I don't steal 'em I just borrow them...the greatest thing about Folk Music is that for the most part it's public domain. Besides, I like to think I'm just paying respect to the folkies before me by usin' some of their stuff...

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 10:55 AM

Yes I steal tunes now and again without noticing. Then I spend days wandering around trying to remember where I've heard the tune before. Once I know where I lifted it from I'm happier because I can see the differences or what changes I can make in it. I bug all my acquaintances by asking them "Have you heard this tune before? Where have you heard this?" They usually answer as well as they can. There is only one guy who bugs me by always saying "Yes you plagiarized that one." But he can never tell where from. I've stopped asking him.

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Pseudolus
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:05 AM

I neglected to tell you the best part of the story. The performer was Tom O'Carroll (one of the Worlds greatest "nice guys"), and he offered to have me sing a couple. Well, I was three hours into a surprise party that went well and I knew I didn't have to drive home so the beers were flowing freely might I say.... Anyway, I start to sing this song that I had written 7 hours before and between the unfamiliarity and the Lagers, I had totally forgotten the melody and proceeded to make it up as I went along!! No one really knew, they just probably thought that it wasn't one of my best efforts!! thankfully, my wife has a great sense of humor and just laughed through the whole thing.... C'est la Vie....

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Bert
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:27 AM

Whew! I'm glad I'm not the only one. I'm always scared to sing a new song in case the tune is recognizable.

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:30 AM

Good method LittleHawk. Done that a few times myself.

It's nothing to get upset about though. If you find you've ripped something off...just change a few notes and no one will ever know. Bet george Harrison wishes he'd discovered that about "My Sweet Lord" a little sooner. Cost him millions. On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge Dylan never payed a sent to Paul Clayton for "Don't Think Twice", so I guess it all depends on the size of yer Law Firm.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: hesperis
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:17 PM

You know, sometimes I've written a melody that is original as far as I know, and then put a harmony to it, and then when I go to write the lyrics notice that they fit the harmony part better... The 'harmony' ends up as the melody. Ach, weel.
::shrug::
Whatever works.

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:40 PM

I think that is part of what is called the "Folk Process".

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: GUEST,Sean
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 03:33 PM

Once in a while I would get a melody in my head but never do anything with it. I always thought, "Wouldn't it be great to just pick and choose musical phrases from a bunch of different songs, cut and paste, and VOILA! A new song." About two years ago I thought I had a really good chord progression and melody going until I realized I was re-writing "Simple Twist of Fate." Now I come to find out cutting and pasting may not be so bad. Well, gotta run. I have a great idea for a song. It's going to be called "The Dimpled Wrist of Tate."

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 03:43 PM

Yeah, that chord progression in "Simple Twist of Fate" is a gorgeous one, hard to resist. Sean Lennon did a song which is largely based on the same progression, but deviates from it in the last part a bit, and goes off in another direction.

There are no doubt other songs using that progression too.

I learned a progression from a Kathryn Wheatley song and did something like that with it...changed it enough to create a reasonable different song. Thanks Kathryn! Did I spell "Kathryn" right?

Subject: RE: BS: Ever steal a tune, accidentally??
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:57 AM

So far as I know, my musical borrowings have all been conscious, or if unconscious I detected myself them during the writing process.

Jerome Kern and George Harrison were found guilty of unconscious copyright infringement. In Kern's case, at least, I think the court goofed.

According to The Times (London), Richard Stilgoe (lyric writer for musical plays) advised people who wanted to avoid unconscious copying to "get their music vetted before release. 'I might write something I think is wonderful, then I play it to my family and they say "yes that is wonderful, but it's Land of Hope and Glory."'" Caroline Lees, "Does this tune seem familiar ?", The Sunday Times (London), August 2, 1992.

This is one of the reasons why musicians need a rich public domain to draw on. Creative copying, whether conscious or unconscious, is a part of the process of making music, and sometimes some of this creative copying would be actionable under copyright law. If we weaken copyright too much, writers have trouble making a living. But if we strengthen it too much, creativity bogs down in monopolistic stagnation.

The present situation in the U.S. is one of overprotection. The term of copyright should be cut in half, the music licensing system needs reform, the boundaries of fair use may need some adjustment, and the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA need to be repealed.

For a discussion of possible musical borrowing by Lewis Beethoven, click here

For the Indiana University bibliography of musical borrowing, click here.

T.