Help: The Seamen's Hymn

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Nick the shantyman
Date: 12 Aug 23 - 12:18 PM

You can find this sung on youtube easily enough, and it will be easy to either listen, repeat and learn the tune from that, or transcribe it if you can,
However, with very little adjustment, the words fit well to the folk song, 'The Wild Rover', if you dare! So it would still be true to its Gaelic/Celtic roots......

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Bob Chorba
Date: 12 May 18 - 08:54 PM

Just stumbled across this on the net, researching Welsh roots to the song 'The Seamen's Hymn' found on THE REVELS' 'Blow ye Winds' CD.
Got to say, despite the 17-18th c. British 'West-Gallery' feel to it, the tune sounds distinctly rooted in the Gaelic countries instead. Those deep changes like 'The Ranger's Command' are found rather in Irish and Scottish melodies, Welsh melodies sounding more contained and from a different perspective. Irish and Scottish have a severe pentatonic world that sounds unresolved and hints at eternity. Such big melodic Gaelic changes can be heard most in Scottish ceòl mór music (Scottish Baroque bagpipe music), but I think this melody sounds more softer and Irish of origin.
Obviously it has been around in the mixing pot, thrown back and forward between the Irish, English, Americans, and maybe Welsh vicars too.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: SeaCanary
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:59 AM

FWIW this is the way I sing it; though a bit slower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLlEid3fIRg

Subject: [url=http://www.standardarea.com]asme download pdf[/url]
From: GUEST,asmepdf
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:19 AM

asme standards.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,David Coffin
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 07:49 PM

I just came upon this thread and thought I'd shamelessly offer up my recording of The Seaman's Hymn here: http://www.cdfreedom.com/artists/davidcoffin/catalog/davidcoffinthenantucketsleighride/

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,phil
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 03:52 AM

Thanks for fixing that for me Harou

Phil

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:54 PM

Yes...that's the usual one

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 05:22 PM

Link doesn't work, Phil. This is probably what you mean. Not having sound, all I get is a line moving across the screen when it plays, so I can't judge.

Haruo

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 27 Feb 08 - 03:39 PM

Is this version of Seamen's Hymn the tune we're all on about?

Phil

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM

Ranger's Command MIDI is in the DT ("click to play" link). I kept playing it and then Prospect (from the online Southern Harmony) and then the RealAudio Seamen's Hymn link above, and I swear the first two are both very similar to the latter, but none of the three is the same as any of the three. Not perfectly the same, but maybe close enough to be arrangements of a single melody. Did Lloyd produce sheet music?

Haruo

PS Hey Liz, canon, not cannon! ;-)

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM

I don't know the Ranger's Command (unless it's 'watch out for bears') but I do know that Pachabel's Cannon can be sung under 'Streets of London' for they are almost the same tune.

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:17 AM

Still interested in exploring the relationship between the tunes of The Seamen's Hymn (Lloyd) and The Ranger's Command.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 02:13 AM

"that hymn"?? if there's one thing this thread ought to teach us it's the meaninglessness of the phrase "that hymn". which hymn is the question, and I'll bet it's not the Seamen's Hymn you're talking about...

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,catlin
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:39 PM

That hymn is in the current Episcopal Church hymnal. It can be sung around Labor Day.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:22 AM

Seems to me that if you were harmonizing "The Ranger's Command", the first half of "The Seamen's Hymn" would make a decent lower-voice part.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:14 AM

Isn't at least half of this (the Seamen's Hymn tune) an awful lot like Woody Guthrie's "Ranger's Command"?

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:46 PM

Pete Seeger created OLD FATHER HUDSON based upon Seaman's Hymn, which he learned from Lou Killen.

Come all you bold sailors,
Whe-ereever you be;
And tell Old Father Hudson
That we'll set him free!

We have sailed on his waters,
So-o noble and deep;
And the way he's been treated,
[It] would make your heart weep.

May the POWER of the PEOPLE
be-e heard on each shore;
And bring Old Father Hudson
Cle-arwater once more!

The crew of the Danish viking ship Sebbe Als shifted this to Old Father Baltic, substituting Baltic for Hudson.
The capitalizations and hyphenations indicate points of emphasis during the singing.

EBarnacle

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:24 PM

for those in peril on the sea.
   I went to a quaker boarding school, so we used to have silent worship.
However on the day of the bay of pigs[u. s a. against the Soviet union]or visa versa.
many people thought we were all going to die,we were assembled in our school meeting room.We all sang For THOSE IN PERIL.a moving experience and probably the first and last time we sang at school.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 02:12 PM

And the name, "Melita", is Latin (and older English) for Malta; its use for "Those in Peril on the Sea" alludes to the story of when the Apostle Paul was shipwrecked there (Acts 27:14 - 28:1).

Haruo

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 06:59 AM

The Melita tune of "Eternal Father, strong to save" was written by J.B. Dykes (1823-76) and the words were by William Whiting (1825-78) according to the Cambridge Hymnal.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:10 AM

If you open this RealAudio link and scroll forward to about the 8:30 point, there's a sound clip (most but not all of the song).

Haruo

Subject: Tune Req: Still looking for a MIDI of the tune
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:49 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Haruo
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

So did anybody ever come up with a MIDI of "The Seamen's Hymn", regardless of which Welsh hymn it's based on? Not MELITA (The Navy Hymn aka "For Those in Peril", incipit "Eternal Father, strong to save"), and not ST. ANNE (O God, Our Help in Ages Past), neither of which is the right meter for The Seamen's Hymn, which is 6.5.6.5 (or 11s, differently parsing).

Haruo

PS When I Google for "midi" why does it second-guess me by including pages with "mid"; terribly overinflates the results...

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Burke
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 11:55 AM

Prospect is 30B in the current & probably all the older editions of Sacred Harp. From 1908- it has a alto, but the other 3 parts are the same as the online Southern Harmony version.

Where did the idea that it's Welsh come from?

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 10:59 AM

I'm pretty sure I have an original 1835 "Sacred Harp" in the Archives; it's a little beat up, but if you'd like me to take a look for "Prospect", I will do that for you and if you like e-mail you a *.JPG scanning of the page score, provided we can find it. I don't mind scanning some of these relics as the bindings are pretty well shot anyway. I got a duplicate of one old hymnal for a buck at a flea market, so I "unbound" the roughest one and filed the pages for easy duplication/scanning. "Prospect" sounds really familiar, and I would be surprised if it is not in at least one of my musty old volumes. Some of these have an "Index of first lines" of lyrics, so if you have the lyrics of the older version that might be helpful. You can drop me PM here or @: [e-mail] for further. The "Navy Hymn" ("Eternal Father, strong to save...")is a lovely, haunting piece. I have a couple of versions of that, too, but I'm sure that it's all over the 'net for you. I do it (when my courage is up) on the Oirish (that seems to be an archaic spelling of "Irish" according to one Native of the Isles) low-"G" wooden flute, and it works nicely if I can pull it off. It's got a couple of odd semitone intervals which call for some half-holing or cross-fingering (I use a lot of rolls with the open tone holes), but it is sweet. Sung in 4-part harmony it is most impressive; the U.S. Coart Guard Academy Choir has an album out, I think, with a very nice rendition of the old Hymn. The Hymn associated with "Titanic" alluded to is the last tune played by the ship's Orchestra, legend has it, as the ship went down - also a nice flute/whistle tune - "Nearer My God to Thee".

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Burke
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 10:15 AM

When I said it sounded like a tune from a 4 shape book, I did not really expect it to be there. Here's Prospect as published in the Southern Harmony. The 1991 editon of Sacred Harp gives the composer as Graham 1835. Since 1835 is the original publication date for Southern Harmony, it's a fair guess that it's the first publication of it that anyone has found and the attribution is simply taken from there.

The tune is on the 2nd staff. There are a couple of spots where Lloyd has taken the notes from the top staff. He's also added a few notes here & there to make the line long enough.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 09:40 AM

Here are pages with a few (ha!) MIDI's that Barry has sequenced:
Barry's Best MIDIs from Taylor's Traditional Tunebook.
Great Canadian Tunebook
His Taylor's Traditional Tunebook is at www.contemplator.com/, Lesley Nelson's incredible web page.

See Barry T's post above for links to the Navy Hymn and O God Our Help in Ages Past.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:57 AM

jofield - Who's Barry T, please? I agree that the chord progression, dynamics et al of the Navy Hymn (Eternal Father) is quite compelling. Just off-the-cuff I can't think of anything else quite like it.

Is there a midi version of "God, Our Help in Ages Past?"

And can you please point me to the midi version you refer to in your last post?

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: jofield
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 10:13 PM

Thank goodness for Barry T. I was sitting here muttering "it's called the Navy Hymn and it sounds almost nothing like 'God, Our Help in Ages Past'!" until I got to his post. The Navy Hymn is one of may favorite Christian tunes -- I love the somewhat spooky changes that match the somber subject. (The midi version I clicked to is about 2X too fast.)

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 06:07 AM

I have some very nice friends. :) I didn't expect my pal to do anything more than make a suggestion about how to procede...maybe rummage around in her memory a bit...let alone leave her desk. Imagine my surprise when the following appeared in my e-mail.

Hi, D.,

We finally made some headway with your question on the Seaman's Hymn today, thanks to Joe Hickerson's dropping in. Your suspicions are correct -- Bert Lloyd wrote the words, which he set to a hymn tune that appears in the Sacred Harp (Original Sacred Harp, Denson Revision, 1971 edition) as "Prospect." The words to the hymn are attributed to Isaac Watts, 1707, and the melody to Graham. The notes below the setting (the melody line being in the tenor) say this:

"The original title to this hymn was "Christ's Presence Makes Death Easy." Full sketch of Dr. Watts is given in other parts of this book. He was born in 1674 and died in 1748. He was one of the greatest ministers in the world. "Prospect" is one of the older melodies. It appears in "Southern Harmony," by Walker, page 92, in 1835; also "Christian Harmony," and many other books."

Then, in smaller print, "Copyright, 1909, by J.S. James," which applies only to this arrangement of the tune.

I checked _Southern Harmony_ for any additional information on Prospect, and there was none. Nor was any more provided in Christian Harmony_. But you probably have enough to go on now.

Additionally, I performed a copyright search on the online catalog for items from 1978 on, and found nothing. You might want to ask Lea, who visited the Reading Room today to work on this, to go consult the copyright card catalogs in the Madison Bldg. for the decades of the 1960s and 1970s to see if anything turns up.

You (or Lea) could also find out who recorded it by doing a search on the Silver Platter database in the Recorded Sound Reference Center, using the discographical citations to put in call slips for the record jackets, which might contain liner notes with helpful information. I believe Lou Killen recorded it, as well as John Roberts and Tony Barrand. Both are pretty good about documentation.

Hope this helps,

J. ============================== ==============================

Yup, it surely does help. T'anks J. and remember...

...If it's not Scottish...

...it's *Crrrap*.

Back to the hymnals. More as it develops.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 04:34 PM

"those in peril on the sea" made an appearance in the recent redo of "Moby Dick. It may be in the book too. Now I have to check.
Mary

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Burke - on a different computer
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 05:37 PM

I found I have the tune recorded twice on a Clearwater CD. Starts with Pete using the tune for Old Father Hudson; it ends with the 'crew' singing Seamen's Hymn. Nothing in the liner notes other than a credit to Lloyd for the later.

Once I knew the tune, I checked the currently used Welsh American Hymnal. The tune is not there. I'm not really surprised because there's not much older than 1890's in it and the tune sounds older to me. From the sound I'd expect it to turn up more in my 4 shape tune books than in the hymnal.

I hope the Lloyd connection works out for you. The prospect of finding & scouring 19th cent. Welsh hymn books is pretty daunting. Even just turn up a tune name will help look in the books.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Anglo
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 12:53 PM

I think Jennifer was _the_ last student of ALL, amd might know more details if she was interested in pursuing that. But I wouldn't expect much from the LOC.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 12:18 PM

Thank you, Jeri! I'm looking forward to hearing your efforts. BTW, I have a couple of friends at the Library Of Congress who are rummaging around for me to see what they can find. One of them was a student -- likely one of the last students -- of Alexander Lancaster Lloyd. Unfortunately for us, she's in Italy on vacation right at the moment so patience is required.

(Patience is a virtue,
Possess it if you can,
Seldom in a woman,
Never in a man.)

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 12:16 PM

I've just done a couple of MIDIs of this tune, which I'll be sending to Alan for the Mudcat Midi Page. One is reasonable, the other is, shall we say "tarted up." (We're talking "over-the-top," "what-kind-of-drugs-are-you-on," "has-no-shame" tarted up.")

They're 1KB (hear the tune) and 5KBs (witness what havoc a deranged person who can barely read music, but has a MIDI-writing program can wreak), respectively. If anyone wants me to send either or both, click here to e-mail me.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: richardw
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:32 PM

Hoot;

You're right. The hymn in Perfect Storm is Eternal Father, with the line..."those in peril on the sea."

Richard Wright

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Anglo
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:54 PM

Lloyd wrote the words for a Trafalgar Day radio program (1955? that would have been the 150th anniversary). I believe he claimed he set it to a Welsh hymn tune but I don't know of anyone who's turned up the original. Lloyd being the way he was, even if you did find the original it would be quite different from what he came up with. Louis sang it to the Clearwater crew and it went on from there. That's all I know.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:26 PM

Allan S.: If you have the album that John Roberts & Tony Barand recorded it on or for that matter Lou Killen, do you know if anyone says *which* Welsh hymn A.L. Lloyd chose for the melody? The name of that hymn -- which does not appear to be "Eternal Father" -- is really the goal of my search.

Obviously this assumes that the words were written by A.L. Lloyd as opposed to it being traditional as is written in the book _Songs & Sketches of the First Clearwater Crew_. (Lou Killen is listed in the front as being one of those who contributed to the songs.)

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:36 PM

JOhn and Tony sing the english seamans hymn also Lou Killen that is the one you are looking for possibly on one of their recordings

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Burke
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:00 PM

Within the last couple of weeks someone put up a few files with samples of their own singing. I was at a web site where was free to load music files, but I can't find the thread right off. Maybe someone else remembers & can find it.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:39 AM

Have a look at the current "Tunes Wanted" threads for more on posting midis; they should usually be sent to Alan of Australia for the Mudcat Midi Site (link under "Quick Links" on the main Forum page) -abc format and miditext can go straight into threads; RA isn't possible at present.  Look at  Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide  for (much) more info.  For more folk music resources, look at the Mudcat Links page (top of the main page) and then just go exploring!

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:25 AM

Eh, bien this seems to be quite a tough nut to crack. If anyone can suggest;

1) Who to contact so I can put a midi/Real Audio/whatever up on Mudcat for Seaman's Hymn

2) Other sources of Folk Music on the web

I'd be much obliged. I'm a little new at the web resources as you might infer.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Cobble
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:49 AM

Thanks Hoot and Fidget, you are right, my mistake on the title. (Eternal Father)

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Tiger
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:43 AM

"Eternal Father, Strong to Save" was also sung in "Titanic."

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Barry T
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:02 AM

Those are two different hymns! here is Eternal Father Strong to Save, aka the Navy Hymn. And here is Oh God Our Help in Ages Past. Both are traditionally sung / played during Remembrance Day ceremonies and Remembrance Day Church services each year.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 12:23 AM

I think "Eternal Father Strong to Save" is "Oh God,Our Help in Ages Past", does that help? And sorry for my side track earlier. Where is Praise when we need her?

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: GUEST,Hoot & Fidget
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:34 PM

John, RichardW, Cobble;

The melody at http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/lsd/perillt.mid is the hymn I know as "Eternal Father" of which one line at the end of three of the verses is "For those in peril on the sea." For that reason I can see how the hymn might come to be known as "For those in peril".

The melody is attributed to John Bacchus Dykes, 1861 and the words to William Whiting, 1860. To the best of my knowledge the original hymn had 4 verses, but it seems to have acquired a "boatload" of additions for everything from Naval Aviators to the Submarine Service. It's a good tune; I'm not in the least surprised.

Unfortunately it's not the melody I've ever heard "Seaman's Hymn" sung to. I originally got the music from "The Boarding Party" (Tom McHenry) and he claimed they got it from a book titled _Songs & Sketches of the First Clearwater Crew_. I picked up a copy (edited by Don McLean -- yup, THAT Don Mclean; North River Press; Croton-On-Hudson, NY; 1970) and there it was on p.18 attributed to Traditional. The question of ownership is obviously a tad foggy.

I saw The Perfect Storm. I was a little stunned to think I hadn't remembered the melody to "Seaman's Hymn" at the end as it's something I would notice. Thinking back I do believe I heard "Eternal Father" but, I wouldn't bet more than a beer on that -- a very GOOD beer, but no more.

In any event I think I have a better idea of where you're coming from. The words I have for "Seaman's Hymn" fit very well to "Eternal Father", it's just not the melody I was looking for. I certainly appreciate your efforts not to mention the speed with which you responded...you guys are amazing!! If anyone's interested in helping me dig a little further, I'd be obliged. Right now I'm trying to see if there's anything on the web about A.L. Lloyd and have come up with almost "bupkis".

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:28 PM

We have two different songs being discussed here. 1)For Those in Peril, and 2) the song written by A.L. Lloyd called "Seaman's Hymn. The two have different tunes.

This page says Lloyd wrote the melody.

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:20 PM

You'll fing For Those In Peril at http://www.harmonics.com/lucy/lsd/perillt.mid

Subject: RE: Help: The Seamen's Hymn
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:15 PM

Dear Hoot, I believe that Those in Peril is the same tune as Lest We Forget, but I would really like someone else to confirm this. I can generate a four part harmony for you based on a scratchy score I have for Lest We Forget. It would take me a day or two, so please let me know. Regards, John