Drugs and the North II

Subject: Drugs and the North II
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:40 AM

Just to add to what I said last time,

Check out "www.bbc.co.uk/" to read what Peter Mandelson has to say about the paramilitaries, the drug trade, illegal drinking dens and child prostitution.

I'll just notch this one up on my very annoying "ego" board.

Lox.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:49 AM

I'm not being pedantic, but it's quoted as a comment from Ken Maginnis, and he doesn't actually mention CHILD prostitution, but yes, the drift is the same as the previous thread on Drugs and the North
article is here

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:58 AM

Elliot Ness, eh?

That's rich.

B.
(Thanks for the link, Fib. I was searching like mad for the piece.)

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:19 AM

Oops!

It is indeed Ken Maginnis. I was getting confused between the report you've given us a link to and the TV news report I saw on Monday night in which Peter Mandelson said the same thing.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:50 AM

And (I almost forgot), you're right. He didn't say "Children" at all. He said "Young Girls".

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:13 AM

Well, I'm glad we got all that sorted out, then

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:13 AM

Aye, it's just that "young girls" round these parts tends to mean anything up to the age of 30 or so! :o)

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Grab
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 10:51 AM

I happened to see "Newsnight" last night, where the interview took place. Ken Macginnis did actually talk about girls as young as 13 being drawn into prostitution.

The original idea of having the army in NI was to act as "untouchables", ie. that they would intervene dispassionately to prevent the violence, although this brought its own problems. You get loads of shit-scared squaddies with guns in a riot situation, sooner or later folks are going to get shot - soldiers are trained as soldiers, not as policemen. Best move I spose would be to get police over from the mainland (England/Scotland/Wales). Contrary to what the Loyalists would like to think, we (or everyone I know, anyway) mostly reckon the "paramilitary" gangs on both sides are a bunch of animals looking for a fight, so you should get a fairly even-handed response.

Incidentally, it's somewhat curious that the Catholic community are now asking for more police presence on the streets in their areas to protect them from the Protestant gangs. Make of that what you will.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Brendy
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:16 PM

Nothing curious at all, Grab. The Catholic community have always been asking for more police presence in their areas to protect them from the Protestant gangs.

The problem always has been that on very many occasions the Catholic community has never been able to tell the difference between the two.

And whose 'mainland' are you referring to?

In case you don't watch the movies, Elliot Ness was one of the original 'shoot-to-kill' exponents. What Ken Maginnis suggests is a return to this status quo. Not a surprising statement, especially from a man who represents a party that does not want to see the RUC (The Untouchables) even change their name, never mind their operative procedures.

It never ceases to amaze me the way discussions on the north of Ireland, always come down to the suggestion the the Nationalist community are the baddies here, just because we wont roll over and play dead.

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:49 PM

Grab, would you be just as happy to import peelers from the Republic, or does it have to be Brits specifically? I was just thinking it would save shipping costs.*BG*

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:12 PM

Hiya kids:
I will tell you a funny story about policeing and the north. I was at a meeting with some New York politicians and police officials who were asking our opinon about sending NY cops to the north to help the RUC learn about progressive non-discriminitory policing. I looked over at another lawyer who I knew there, and she had the same look of shock I likely had. She gestured to me to answer the proposal. I said that I was not completely happy with the NYPD record on policing though it was milder than the RUC - for the most part. I reminded the folks about the Africanised , South American "killer bees", where milder South American bees were bred with higher yeald more agresive bees from Africa. The result was an even more agressive bee. I would hate to see "Northernized" cops return from the trip to Ireland.
ALl the best, I will have to check out the above clikies when I have a moment.
Chearsm'dears
Larry

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 07:24 AM

A note about reading the peice that has been posted here. I notice that many readers take generalized statements as referring to all parties, therefore, in an artical about Loyalist crime, when the sentence about paramilitartaries involved in drugs and prostitution is quoted, some will read into that the missreading that both sides were involved in that. Nowing reporting on the North the way we do, don't you think if a bad action related to the IRA and the INLA as well as the loyalists, the reporter would spell that out, in fact, would highlight the fact the IRA and INLA were up to that? Well, for what it is worth.
Best wishes to all and I hope you are having a better summer than I,
Larry

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 08:19 AM

As was said before, it's all the same shade of dodgy. I'm backing well out of this one now as I don't like talking politics. I was just contributing a blue clicky thing cos I'd read the article earlier that day!
All the besty,
Fib.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 08:45 AM

Two articles from the Irish Times you might find interesting:

IRA may allow drugs if it given a cut of profits, Irish Times (March 11, 1998)

Paramilitaries paid by drug dealers - RUC, Irish Times, March 12, 1998 (view from the RUC)

I found the second one especially interesting, reading that a top man from the RUC (the police) (a) differentiates quite clearly between actions of a paramilitary group as such and crimes of individual members and (b) says explicitly that the IRA isn't involved in the same way in drug dealing as the loyalists and the INLA are.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 08:54 AM

Just a citation I found on that topic on the CAIN website:
The number of drugs related offences in Northern Ireland has been increasing steadily and rapidly over the past number of years, with the number of arrests for drugs charges having more than tripled in the five years between 1990 and 1995. Having said this however, these figures are still dramatically lower than the figures for any other part of the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Lox
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:24 PM

Cheers for all this info.

It supports a view that I have argued for a few years now. It always struck me as odd, that in a place where the vast majority of people are sick to death of violence and romantic views of history and religious nonsense, paramilitaries are somehow believed when they argue that they are fighting for some cause.

It was John Hume who first pointed out that the problem was not religious, but, being a contemporary problem, was in fact political.

Even this has been shown to be stretching the truth however, as the paramilitaries don't represent the people. The people want to live peaceful lives.

The problem is, that they also want to know that the "other sides" paramilitaries are going to behave themselves.

I remain of the belief that the paramilitaries are happy with the status quo, and that they benefit from the peoples paranoia, which they are keeping alive as long as they can.

Northern Irelands biggest enemies are fear, paranoia and stubbornness. These things can all be overcome. When Clinton came to The North, people didn't greet him with the tricolor or orange sashes, they greeted him (view it cynically if you want to, but it happened) with doves and other such symbols of peace.

It strikes me that the people of the north want nothing more than to cast off the clothes that history has given them to wear.

A good first step is taking a look at the people who are keeping the old wounds open.

The paramilitaries don't need our sympathy. They don't need anyone to stand up for them. They are bullies, and I hope that this sudden awakening that Ken Maginnis and Peter Mandelson seem to be having, has the effect of shutting them down.

I'm sorry if this seems flippant or patronizing, but I am convinced that what we are seeing at the moment is the death of the old order in the North. Nationalism and Loyalism are, I think, irrelevant to most people nowadays. I think that this is particularly true among the youth.

It's their future!

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: death by whisky
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:38 PM

C' on lads.Nationalists and Republicans in government with Unionists?.In the same room/building.?Better than we've ever had before.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Brendy
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:45 PM

Lox:

I could write a lengthy response to this one, and take apart your argument, layer by 'patronising' little layer.

But your entire argument, and by association your thought processes on this one, can be summed up with that irrefutable equation: 2 + 2 = 3

Either that, or you have some sort of chip on your shoulder.

B.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: Lox
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 09:50 PM

Death by Whiskey,

Was it you that was telling us about the peaceful nature of the agreement between the Apprentice Boys and the Residents Association in Derry/LondonDerry?

Whatever about a parliament with Nationalists and Unionists in it, this is an example of grass roots cooperation.

Whats more, it will be easier next time now that the precedent has been set.

Subject: RE: Drugs and the North II
From: GUEST,Soapstone
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 07:47 PM

I think your all being 'had' by Fibula or Fibber, -----whatever, he seems to want to get us off and running again. Please, don't take his bait.