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Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman

Snuffy 02 Sep 00 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,The Invisibl Blazoona 02 Sep 00 - 10:27 AM
The Shambles 02 Sep 00 - 04:02 PM
Joan from Wigan 02 Sep 00 - 04:58 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 00 - 05:54 PM
Snuffy 02 Sep 00 - 05:55 PM
Snuffy 02 Sep 00 - 06:00 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 00 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Giac, not at home 02 Sep 00 - 06:23 PM
Amos 02 Sep 00 - 06:29 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 00 - 07:14 PM
Joan from Wigan 03 Sep 00 - 03:21 AM
Giac 03 Sep 00 - 03:54 AM
Snuffy 03 Sep 00 - 07:37 AM
Alan of Australia 09 Sep 00 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 07 Jun 06 - 10:13 AM
Peace 07 Jun 06 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 07 Jun 06 - 10:21 AM
Peace 07 Jun 06 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 07 Jun 06 - 10:42 AM
Peace 07 Jun 06 - 11:23 AM
Peace 07 Jun 06 - 11:28 AM
Flash Company 07 Jun 06 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 07 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM
Peace 07 Jun 06 - 12:27 PM
Peace 07 Jun 06 - 01:07 PM
Amos 07 Jun 06 - 01:19 PM
Joe Offer 07 Jun 06 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,Joe Offer at the library 08 Jun 06 - 07:22 PM
Peace 09 Jun 06 - 12:22 PM
Peace 09 Jun 06 - 12:34 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Bfrancois9 09 Mar 17 - 07:38 AM
GUEST,MVS 10 Mar 17 - 04:40 AM
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Subject: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 10:21 AM

I came across these two in our search for tunes for songs in the DT. I remember Dusty Springfield singing these in the early 60s on a Springfields album before she went solo. But I think she sang them as one song. So:
  1. Are these two songs or one?
  2. Are there any more verses to either?
  3. Shouldn't the end of Silver Dollar be "from man to man"?

SILVER DOLLAR
You can take a silver dollar and drop it on the ground
And it'll roll, because it's round
A woman never knows what a good man she's got
Until she turns him down

So listen, my honey, listen to me
I want you to understand
As a silver dollar goes from hand to hand
So does a woman go from hand to hand

MAN WITHOUT A WOMAN
Now a man without a woman is like a ship without a sail
Is like a boat without a rudder, or a shirt without a tail
Now a man without a woman is like a wreck upon the sand
But if there is one thing worse in this universe
Then it's a woman, I said a woman
I mean a woman without a man


Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: GUEST,The Invisibl Blazoona
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 10:27 AM

Yes, the last verse should be "from man to man", and, yes, they are two different songs.

I've never heard Dusty's version(s), but these songs were both mainstays in the repertoire of the late San Francisco Dixieland Banjoist/Vocalist, Clancy Hayes.


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 04:02 PM

The 'Man Without a Woman' song rings a bell.

There was a girl that used to sing this song and only this song every Friday night, down at our local. She used to do it with that big finish..."I said a woman". "I mean a woman"...

I have not heard it since then and I don't want to hear it again.

I stopped going to the pub because of that song.


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Subject: Lyr Add: DOWN AND OUT ^^
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 04:58 PM

These two songs, together with a third, "Down and Out", appear in New Song Fest (as featured in a couple of recent threads) as a suggested medley. It gives the final line of "Silver Dollar" as "So a woman goes from man to man". Just for the record:

DOWN AND OUT

If I had it, you could have it, but honey, I ain't got it;
I'm all in, I'm down and out,
I could send you to a friend who'd be mighty glad to lend it,
But he's all in, he's down and out.

When I had money, I was crazy to spend it,
If I ever get my hands on a dollar again,
I'm gonna hold to it - it's your only friend,
When you're rollin', down and out! I said it,
Rollin', down and out!

Joan ^^


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 05:54 PM

Snuffy, thanks for the correction - I harvested it for the database, along with Joan's lyrics for "Down and Out." Now, is there a volunteer to transcribe all three tunes from New Song Fest? Snuffy, were you in the process of doing that already? My desk is piled high with songs to transcribe.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 05:55 PM

Thanks Blazoona and Joan.

But both songs seem awfully short. Is there any more to either of them?

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 06:00 PM

Joe,

I posted Silver Dollar and Man Without a Woman to the missing tunes thread 23672. Sorry I can't help with Down & Out

Wassail! V


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Subject: Tune Add: SILVER DOLLAR + MAN WITHOUT A WOMAN
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 06:11 PM

Wow, Snuffy, that's great! Excuse me for asking, but what are the numbers before the song titles? Just so people can find them easily, I'll also post them here. Since you did the other two, I'll do "Down and Out" and post it here. Thanks a lot, Snuffy. You're "too cool," as they used to say.
-Joe Offer-
3144 SILVER DOLLAR
X: 124
T:Silver Dollar
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:132
S:Dusty Springfield
N:filename [SILVDOLR
K:G
DEF|
GGGG|GG3|GGGG|GBBB|
(A2E2|A)BBB|(A2E2|A3)G|
FFFF|F2FF|FF2F|F3F|
G2G2|GG3|A4-|A2A2|
BB2B|BB3|BBBB-|B3B|
A2AA|BA3|E4-|E3G|
BABA|BABA|BA3|G3A|
BAGE|GA3|G4-|G2||

2248 MAN WITHOUT A WOMAN
X: 125
T:Man Without A Woman
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:132
S:Dusty Springfield
N:filename [MANNOWOM
K:G
GA|
B4 zBBA|BA4 AAA|A4 zBAG|G6GG|
E4 zGGE|DG4 zGA|B4 zGBB|A6 BB|
B4 zBBA|BA4 AAA|A4 zBAG|G4 zDEG|
B2B2 B2BB|BA2G2 DEG|BA4 BBA|BA4 DEG|
BA2 GB2A2|G6||


Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: GUEST,Giac, not at home
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 06:23 PM

I learned the first two in summer camp in 1949, sung together. We sang "fish without a tail," instead of "shirt without a tail."

Seems like there was another song we sang right after, though maybe not as part of a medley -- something about a bicycle, but that's all I can recall. Anybody got a clue about that?

Giac


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 06:29 PM

A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

I've sung "Silver Dollar" for thirty-five years with a different first line:

"Well you can roll a silver dollar down a railroad track,
It's gonna roll,
because it's round,
But a good woman don't know just what she's got
Baby, til she turns him down."

I don't even remember where I learned it. Probably from a friend.



A


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Subject: Tune Add: DOWN AND OUT ^^
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 07:14 PM

MIDI file: DOWNOUT.MID

Timebase: 192

Name: DOWN AND OUT
Text: By (unknown)
Key: D
TimeSig: 4/4 24 8
Start
0576 1 57 110 0142 0 57 000 0002 1 57 110 0046 0 57 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 65 110 0046 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 65 110 0046 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 65 110 0046 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0144 0 66 000 0000 1 65 110 0046 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0046 0 66 000 0002 1 65 110 0142 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0046 0 66 000 0002 1 67 110 0142 0 67 000 0002 1 67 110 0046 0 67 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 64 110 0192 0 64 000 0000 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 64 110 0256 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0046 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0142 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0046 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0046 0 66 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 57 110 0160 0 57 000 0032 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 62 110 0256 0 62 000 0128 1 57 110 0094 0 57 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 65 110 0046 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 65 110 0046 0 65 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 67 110 0142 0 67 000 0002 1 67 110 0046 0 67 000 0002 1 66 110 0142 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0046 0 66 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 63 110 0046 0 63 000 0002 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 59 110 0160 0 59 000 0032 1 59 110 0094 0 59 000 0002 1 59 110 0142 0 59 000 0002 1 59 110 0046 0 59 000 0002 1 62 110 0336 0 62 000 0048 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0046 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0142 0 64 000 0002 1 64 110 0046 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 67 110 0256 0 67 000 0032 1 62 110 0142 0 62 000 0002 1 64 110 0046 0 64 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0194 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 61 110 0094 0 61 000 0002 1 59 110 0094 0 59 000 0194 1 62 110 0094 0 62 000 0002 1 59 110 0094 0 59 000 0194 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 66 110 0160 0 66 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Down and Out
M:4/4
Q:1/4=120
K:D
A,15/2A,/2|F3/2=F/2F3/2=F/2F3/2=F/2F3/2=F/2|
F3/2F/2=F3/2F/2G3/2G/2F2|E2B,2E2E2|EB,2E3E3/2^D/2|
E3/2^D/2E3/2^D/2E2E3/2^D/2|E3/2E/2^D3/2E/2F3/2F/2E2|
D2B,2A,2B,2|DB,2D4A,|F2F2F3/2=F/2F3/2=F/2|
FF2FG3/2G/2F3/2F/2|E3/2^D/2E3/2^D/2E2E3/2^D/2|
E3/2^D/2EB,2B,B,3/2B,/2|D4E3/2E/2E3/2E/2|
FF2G3D3/2E/2|FD3F2F2|D2F2CB,3|DB,3F2F2|D7/4||


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:21 AM

Snuffy, those are all the words per the book. It's probably because they're so short they can only practically be sung as a medley.

Joan


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Giac
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:54 AM

LOL, Amos.


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 07:37 AM

Joe

The numbers before the tunes are from Mmario's list of 3800+ songs in DT with no tunes - but we must have cleared up nearly a thousand of em by now.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Lyr req: Silver Dollar/Man without a Wom
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 04:29 AM

G'day,
Thanks to Joe the tune for "Down and Out" can be found here at the Mudcat MIDI site.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:13 AM

ORIGINS QUESTION:

~~~Reviving this thread after nearly six years to ask...

Does anyone know anything about the origin of these two linked songs: "Roll a Silver Dollar" and "A Man Without a Woman"?

They must have come from somewhere.

They are almost universally known across North America by campers, hikers, schoolchildren, collegians...you name it. If anything has become traditional, these have.

But they sound like popular songs from way back. Maybe late 19th century, or early 20th???

Can anyone help trace them? It would be a real score to track them down to a songwriter and date.

Thanks,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:18 AM

Some stuff about it here:

www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/vista/3255/silverdollar.htm


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Subject: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:21 AM

I posted this query in the Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman thread, but it occurs to me that might get missed. So I'm starting this to ask:
~~~~~~~~

Can anyone help trace the origins of "Roll a Silver Dollar" and the linked song, "Man Without a Woman"?

They have entered tradition, at least among a large cross-section of American campers, hikers, school kids, collegians and so on. But they aren't at all folk-sounding.

They sound like 19th-early 20th century popular songs.

They must once have been longer. I'm guessing they are two separate songs, and that what has survived in each case is the refrain from the original song.

It would be great to be able to identify the originals, when published, with their full lyrics, composers, etc.

Any clues? Any research ideas?

Bob
    Threads combined and renamed to avoid the confusion of having two active threads on the same song.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:24 AM

PS: The above is copyrighted so I didn't cut and paste the article.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:42 AM

Thanks, Peace, great find.

Owing to the webpage suggested by Peace,

http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/vista/3255/silverdollar.htm

here's what we know so far:

"Silver Dollar"
written 1907 or earlier by Alfred Williams.   
First recorded 1907 on Victor.
Covered by the vaudeville/pop singer Billy Murray on Victor, 1908.
Jack Palmer and Clarke Van Ness revived and copyrighted the song in 1939, presumably this second recording is the source for the now widely popular version.

Going by the lyrics quoted at the website above, "Silver Dollar" and "Man Without a Woman" are the same song.

Interestingly, though the website quotes the Murray and Palmer/Van Ness lyrics as well as a rugby version, none of the three offer any significant lyrics beyond the version that's now universally known.

I had suspected --- I still suspect --- that there may have been more to the original lyrics, but no luck so far in finding any but those.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:23 AM

lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/s/silverdollar.shtml

Seems to repeat what you posted, Bob. However . . . .


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:28 AM

"A man without a woman is like a neck without a pain. --W C Fields"

Fields lived from 1880-1946. He had a way of saying things, and certainly of re-stating a phrase.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: Flash Company
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:50 AM

From memory circa 1947, I recall my Mum hated it!

You can throw a silver dollar down upon the ground,
And it will ro-o-oll,
Because it's row=ow-ound,
A woman never knows what a good man she's got,
Until she turns him down-down-down-down,
So listen my honey, listen to me, I want you to understand,
That as a silver dollar goes from hand to hand,
A woman goes from man to man.

A man without a woman, is like a ship without a sail,
A boat without a rudder or a fish without a tail,
A man without a woman is like a wreck upon the sand,
There's only one thing wose in the universe
And that's a woman without a man.

Repeat ad nauseam

FC


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM

I've checked the following in search of the original 1907(?) sheet music:

Lester S Levy collection - lists only the 1939 item, no link to it. Doubtful value, as it is the original that will be decisive.

American Memory (Lib Cong./Duke U) - has no copy.

I'm open to further research suggestions. Can anyone find the original 1907(?) sheet music?

That would show us whether there are more lyrics than appear on the 1908 Murray recording. Likely there are; writers of that era loved writing lots of verses.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 12:27 PM

Bob, I have to go for a bit. However, search for stuff about Alfred Williams. I put his name in quotation marks and then Googled and it's possible that that well won't be dry.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Roll a Silver Dollar/Man Withou
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:07 PM

Also, look in the DT under Old Adam.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:19 PM

..and a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.


A


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Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 01:28 PM

For the record, here is the entry from the Levy Sheet Music Collection. They can't display the music because the arrangement was published after 1923, and thus is still under copyright.

    Title: Silver Dollar.
    Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: by Jack Palmer and Clarke Van Ness.
    Clarke Van Ness Publication: New York: Hampshire House, Inc., 1619 Broadway, 1939, 1950.
    Form of Composition: da capo
    Instrumentation: piano and voice
    First Line: You can throw a silver dollar down upon the ground and it will roll
    First Line of Chorus: A man without a woman is like a ship without a sail
    Advertisement: ads on back cover for Hampshire House, Inc. stock
    Subject: Coins
    Subject: Couples
    Subject: Dancing
    Subject: Courtship
    Subject: Love
    Subject: Interpersonal relations
    Call No.: Box: 177 Item: 089

Apparently, our primary source for tune and lyrics of Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman is New Song Fest. There's a song called "A Man Without a Woman" in a book called Alabama Folk Lyrics - anybody got that one?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: GUEST,Joe Offer at the library
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:22 PM

I'm not satisfied yet. We should be able to find sheet music older than the 1939 version, which I suspect is a medley.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:22 PM

A Man Without A Woman

Song from a publication entitled Songs America Sings: 121 Easy Arrangements for Piano/Vocal/Guitar
Composer: Alfred Williams
Lyricist: Alfred Williams
Edition: Vocal Collection
96 pages
Publisher: G. Schirmer, Inc.
ISBN: 0793571804
UPC: 73999330205


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Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 12:34 PM

One question: What do people know about Alfred Williams? Bio? Autobio? Birth-death. Where born, etc. The sheet music predating 1939 is not readily available. Might be worth tracking this through the author.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

Refresh.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: GUEST,Bfrancois9
Date: 09 Mar 17 - 07:38 AM

Piano player Terry Waldo used to sing, "Just like a silver dollar goes from hand to hand a woman goes from man to man . . . behind the
outhouse . . . a woman goes from man to man."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Silver Dollar / Man without a Woman
From: GUEST,MVS
Date: 10 Mar 17 - 04:40 AM

cf "I Don't Bother Work," recorded in 1931 by the Carolina Buddies (Odell Smith, Norman Woodlieff, Walter Smith) on Columbia 15663-D.

I don't bother work, work don't bother me,
I'm just as happy as a bumble bee
Eat when I can get it, sleep 'most all the time,
I don't give a doggone if the sun don't never shine.
I go everywhere, I don't pay no fare,
I can ride a freight train just anywhere
Seems mighty strange, strange to me,
Work, work, work don't bother me.

Old Bill Cooper, worked down in the holler,
Want to know the diff'rence 'tween a woman and a dollar.
Ain't no diff'rence in one and all,
Woman is long and a dollar is small.
Look here, you, try to explain,
And make me understand
That a dollar will go from hand to hand
And a woman goes to workin' man.

(repeat verse 1)

Flip side of the disk is "He Went In Like a Lion," which guitarist Norman Woodlieff claimed as an original in some 1970s interviews. Sure, if you count writing down the lyrics from a 1919 or 1920 Billy Murray recording. I don't recall if he or Walter Smith claimed this one, however.

As with "Silver Dollar," this one is more like a medley. The first verse feels as if it fell out of "Ragged But Right," and back when I still had a bit of voice I used to medley this song with "Ragged" -- for so long that I have a hard time separating them out.


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