feminist perspective on folk songs

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 01:48 PM

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: GUEST,jane
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 01:52 PM

previous message blank because i failed to realise that you need to write your message before you submit it. Clever, huh? Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed the words of 'invisible women' up there. maith thu, a chara

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 05:40 PM

Hi Jane - yours isn't the first empty post in this forum, so don't be discouraged. Stay with us and help me find out from Belfast where I can get a recording of the song!

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 06:17 PM

As a mere male whos is capable of doing washing and ironing and other household chores in partnership with my chosen lady,I will continue to sing songs like Tucker Zimmerman's 'Handfull of Rain'with lines like 'one man's woman is another man's pain in the arse,but that's all right with me'.And holding doors open for ladies as well. Though it is difficult to say'I'm a male chavinist'when your tongue is jammed so hard into your cheek.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 06:38 PM

If holding the door open to a woman makes you a male chauvinist - does taking the offer and walking through make me a female chauvinist?

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 07:13 PM

With this thread being so very long when it was revived, wouldn't it be a good idea now to open a part two, (using the Creatre New Thread facility, and a link from and to this thread) if people want the discussion to continue?

(I normally try to keep the door open for anyone going through after me - and doesn't every polite person?)

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: Rev
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 10:58 PM

For further reading on feminist approaches to folk music I highly recommend a book by a former professor of mine, Dianne Dugaw, up at the University of Oregon. Her book, Warrior Women and Popular Balladry, is all about the family of folksongs about women who disguise themselves as men and go to sea or to war. One of her most interesting points (and she has many) is that the oldest known variants of these songs (from the 17th century) feature a very strong female protagonist, who proves to be the equal of any man, whereas by the time the Victorian era has rolled around the female heroine has become weak and helpless and is barely able to disguise herself as a man due to her fragility. Anyway, it's an interesting book. Thanks for the interesting topic Deborah (I hope you stick around). Rev

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: mg
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 11:04 PM

I'll have to read Dianne's book. I went to high school with her. mg

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: belfast
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:59 AM

McGrath of Harlow is (as usual) right and a new thread should be started. Naturally I have no idea how to do this.

Suzanne (skw), the song hasn't been recorded but I suppose it will be one of these days (and I really mean "years"). But if you like it stick a tune on it and sing it - it actually does make a few, very few, uncomfortable. Which can be good clean fun.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: Keevan6
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 05:07 AM

What i fail to grasp is why we are arguing about a song written a long time ago......or male/female gender roles as they applied back in the day.......a famous man once said "Don't live in the past, only learn from it." We're living in a new century......with ever changing rules of how we deal with life and each other, If we only use one song (or songs) as a bias to further the split between Females/Males, will we ever truly reach harmony? For heavens sake people........learn from the past and write new songs, and one day our children, and their children will look back on us and they will hopefully realize that we......as a new generation, in an undiscovered country, at least tried to make it work........

---

Threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Keevan 30/M

Subject: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:14 AM

There is a thread back there entitled 'feminist perspective on folksongs'. There was some interesting stuff there but it was begun in September '00 and is about 100 postings long. It was re-opened recently with the lyrics of a song 'invisible women'. I got the thread opened once but when I went back my little machine here would not co-operate. Somebody suggested that a new thread should be opened. And I'm doing just that. So, could someone go that thread and make a link to this one? And would the person who posted the lyrics to the song do it again? Am I making sense?There is a thread back there entitled 'feminist perspective on folksongs'. There was some interesting stuff there but it was begun in September '00 and is about 100 postings long. It was re-opened recently with the lyrics of a song 'invisible women'. I got the thread opened once but when I went back my little machine here would not co-operate. Somebody suggested that a new thread should be opened. And I'm doing just that. So, could someone go that thread and make a link to this one? And would the person who posted the lyrics to the song do it again? Am I making sense?

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:31 AM

Previous thread here

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:36 AM

Thread continued here

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:49 AM

Here's that song GUEST. (Even if you are a nameless GUEST - I'm assuming that's just a temporary omission):

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folk songs
From: belfast
Date: 21-Sep-02 - 12:08 PM

I'm refreshing this thread partly because it seems like an occasionally interesting and entertaining debate. And partly to post the lyrics of this little song which could be considered as a contribution to this debate.

Invisible Women

The singer sing a rebel song
Everybody sings along
Just one thing I will never understand
Each and every rebel seems to be a man

For they sing of "The Bold Fenian Men"
And "The Boys of the Old Brigade"
What about the women who stood there too
"when history was made"

Ireland, Mother Ireland, with your freedom-loving sons
Did your daughters run and hide at the sound of guns?
Or did they have some part in the fight?
And why does everyone keep them out of sight?

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: GUEST,jane
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 07:49 AM

Thank you. It seems to me that the general rules can be fairly straightforward. A song from the past that relflects the inequalities of society are acceptable but that songs which themselves portray women (or anyone else) as inherently inferior are not. The hard part is telling the difference. And we shouldn't be afraid to point out what's going on. There's a song in part 1 of this which has a bit of fun at the expense of republlican ballads. Why are they always about the "men" and the "boys"? When I write it like that it sounds whining. The song makes her complaint funny.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:18 AM

Jayne,

I'm sorry, but womom are inherenty inferior to men in such things as running quickly or lifting heavy weights.

They are however, in other tasks (both physical and mental) far superior.

Why not accept and celebrate the differences?

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: MAG
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:42 AM

It all goes back to the ball and socket joints, GUEST, and that one thing which requires loose ball & sockets men are frightened of; some admit it, some not.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 11:48 AM

This one of those awful threads where evrybody just saws sawdust...give it up..we all get it.

Subject: Lyr Add: A SONG OF THE CUMANN NA MBAN
From: maire-aine
Date: 23 Sep 02 - 09:22 PM

For the Guest who posted "Invisible Women" (and for anyone else interested), I offer the following. I found it in an old newspaper supplement: Ireland's Fighting Songs, Compliments of and Supplement to Chicago Herald and Examiner, March 6, 1921.

A SONG OF THE CUMANN NA MBAN
(Air: 'Men of the West', which is also 'Rosin the Bow')

When you honor in song and in story
the fighters who shouldered a gun,
and recked not tho' Death's sting should reach them
if so Ireland's freedom be won.
Forget not the women of Erin,
who stood without tremor or dread,
beside those who battled for freedom
'mid shell-fire and deluge of lead.

Chorus:
Then here's to the women of Ireland,
who bravely faced death in the van;
Old Ireland is proud of her daughters,
Hurrah for the Cumann na mBan!

Our tricolour flag flew to Heaven,
proclaiming o'er old Dublin town,
that men of the nation, then wakened,
would die e'er the flag would come down.
And into our ranks came our colleens,
like the women of Limerick of old,
and their smiles* made our weakest a hero—
write their names, boys, in letters of gold.

Though our fight in the old G. P. O., boys,
came to grief as its flames touched the sky,
we lit there a light that shall blaze, boys,
till the power of Saxon shall die.
And cherish for ever the glory,
while the page of our records you scan,
of those valiant daughters of Erin,
Hurrah for the Cumann na mBan!

(Knutsford, June, 1916)

Note: When I sing it, I change "smiles" to "strength"; I figure these women weren't smiling.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: Hecate
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:37 AM

An interesting point re femenist folk - there's a lot of stories about women who dress up as blokes and go to sea/join the army (lilly white breasts soon to be exposed). There was a radio program, and apparently a book (title unknown) covering this - apparently there's a fair bit of truth in it and a lot of young women did go to sea dressed up as boys - there are references to them in Nelson's letters for a start. the reason they vanished from history is that when Queen Victoria awarded medals to all those who had survived a certian sea battle (again, memory fails me on precise details) she refused to give medals to the women who had been there for all the usual Vitoria type reasons.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: GUEST,jane
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:36 AM

If it's okay with you I'll ignore the "let's celebrate our differences" line. It usually means let's ignore inequalities and injustice. And women, as noted by Hecate, have often forged a life for themselves by pretending (wish I could do italics here) to be men. My point is about how folksong often reinforces (unconsciously no doubt) the stereotypes which help prolong the situation. But perhaps, as someone else implies, this is the wrong place to be trying to talk about it. Or perhaps the meaning is that we shouldn't bother talking about it at all. As for the song the "The Soldiers of Cuman na Man", it's a great song but I wonder how many times it has been sung or recorded as compared to "The Men of the West"? And I'm sorry about starting off up there without signing a name but it balances up with the previous thread where I signed my name but didn't send a message.

Subject: RE: feminist perspective on folksongs Pt2
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:21 PM

Hecate, there's one book by Jo Stanley, Bold In Her Breeches: Woman pirates across the ages. I even have the memoirs of a woman who ran away from a good Russian home to enlist and ended up as an officer in the Imperial Army towards the end of the 19th century. She was found out and made to return to her family, but I don't think she ever married, and people held her in great respect.

Jane, I agree with you that there is a good deal to be learned from folksongs - but only if the way of thinking (the zeitgeist, so to speak) is there. I remember articles about all these "woman-disguised-as-man" songs where it is contended that what these women were in it for was following or re-finding their lovers. Now, to me, this is a typically male idea of a woman's motives. It seems to be inconceivable to them that men may not be the ultimate goal. I also think that probably many or most of the William Taylors of this world were written by men.

There are other groups of folk songs that can tell us a lot about the conditions women lived in. Take The Shearin's No For You: There are two very different versions, one holds the woman herself responsible for her 'downfall' of having a child out of wedlock and paints a dismal future for her in punishment. In other words, it looks at this woman exactly the way society has always done. The other version makes clear that the woman's pregnancy is the result of a rape; the man repents and offers to marry her (some wishful thinking there?). The woman's reaction isn't on record but it is fairly clear we're not expected to think she told him to go to hell, but she gratefully accepted and they lived happily ever after ... ahem! Yet this song was described (by a man!) as 'one of the tenderest love songs from Scotland' not too long ago.
Frankie Armstrong, Sandra Kerr and another woman (whose name has slipped my mind) put together a book of such songs in the Seventies and interpreted them from a feminist viewpoint. When there was no feminism, or when the idea that women are equal (though maybe different) hadn't taken root these songs were interpreted differently, of course. It certainly is an interesting and limitless topic!

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN I WAS A FAIR MAID
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Sep 02 - 08:18 PM

Here's a song that celebrates a woman joining the Navy, not to follow a man but just for her own adventure. My band Greenhouse recorded it on this album:

WHEN I WAS A FAIR MAID (trad.)

When I was but a fair maid, about seventeen
I listed in the Navy for to serve the queen
I listed in the Navy, a sailor lad to stand
For to hear the cannons rattling and the music so grand
And the music so grand, the music so grand
For to hear the cannons rattling and the music so grand

The officer that listed me was a tall and handsome man
He said, You'll make a sailor, so come along my man
My waist being tall and slender, my fingers long and thin
O very soon I learned me and I soon exceeded them
I soon exceeded them, I soon exceeded them
O very soon I learned me and I soon exceeded them

They sent me off to bed and they sent me off to bunk
To lie with a sailor I never was afraid
But taking off my blue coat it often made me smile
To think I was a sailor and a maiden all the while
A maiden all the while, a maiden all the while
For to think I was a sailor and a maiden all the while

They sent me off to London for to guard the Tower
And I'm sure I'd still be there `til my very dying hour
But a lady fell in love with me, I told her I was a maid
She went unto the captain and my secret she betrayed
My secret she betrayed, my secret she betrayed
She went unto the captain and my secret she betrayed

The captain he came up to me and he asked if this was so
I would not, I could not, I dared not say no
It's a pity we should lose you, such a sailor lad you made
It's a pity we should lose you, such a handsome young maid
You're a handsome young maid, a handsome young maid
It's a pity we should lose you, such a handsome young maid

So fare thee well, captain, you've been so kind to me
And likewise my shipmates, I'm sorry to part with thee
But if ever the Navy needs a lad, a sailor I remain
I'll put on my hat and feathers and I'll run the rigging again
I'll run the rigging again, I'll run the rigging again
I'll put on my hat and feathers and I'll run the rigging again

Cheers,
Michael