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Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi'
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM *G*
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:36 AM Oh I dunno Praise........I like my Weimaraner and cockatiels are pretty satisfying. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:51 AM There is still no substitute for really getting to know another human being. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM It's yours, Thomas! |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:34 PM "None of us know that if we were pitched into a different time and place we wouldn't be capable of doing the most horrible things to innocent victims. The evidence from history is that very few of us would in fact resist.Our job is to do whatever we can to increase the likelihood that we would be ready to do so." May I use this phrase in a song? I'm serious. I think it is fabulous!....Please?MoH?...Please?MoH? It is quite the soundly wisdom! ttr |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:35 PM Otto Schindler, as well as being a lecher and a crook, was a paid up member of the Nazi party and on very good terms with other Nazis up to their eyeballs in innocent blood.
And he saved a lot of people from the gas chambers, and risked his life to do so.
You couldn't have told him apart from the other Nazis he rubbed along with. Making judgements about people isn't easy, and you can be surprised how people turn out.
That's an encouraging thought. Someone like Schindler can turn around, even while still being what most people would reasonably consider a pretty dodgy kind of character. (In fact if he hadn't been, he'd never have been able to carry it off.)>P> But it's also a chilling thought, because it goes the other way. Seemingly upright loving fathers who were the soul of honesty can turn into agents of mass murder, in Germany, in Russia, in Yugoslavia - and a lot nearer to where most of us live. The people who prospered from the slave trade are revered people in our history, on both sides of the Atlantic. Priests of my own religion who tortured and burnt living people.
None of us know that if we were pitched into a different time and place we wouldn't be capable of doing the most horrible things to innocent victims. The evidence from history is that very few of us would in fact resist. Our job is to do whatever we can to increase the likelihood that we would be ready to do so. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Lepus Rex Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:42 PM LH, don't apologise to that 'guest'. The way you used 'race,' as I understood it, was in the 'a group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographical distribution' sense. Just because some hyper-sensitive 'guest' (and probably the one who's been slandering you all week) doesn't understand what you said doesn't make what you said 'wrong.' I've understood that sense of race ever since I was a small boy. 'Guest Gordon' hasn't, probably because he's got the brain of a goat. Which is sad, because I've got the brain of a rabbit, and *I* got it... This 'guest' is the REAL racist; race, and I mean the division of people into Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, etc, is a false concept. In his belief in such lies, the 'guest' has admitted that HE is a racist. So, I guess what I'm saying is this: Rot in Hell, 'Guest Gordon'. And to you, LH, your entries on this subject have been wonderful. Don't let inbred dickweeds like 'Gordon' drag you down. >:) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: BDtheQB Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:58 AM wow.. just a note to myself.. don't stay away four days if you wish to keep up.. I haven't been around for a couple of days and I may have missed a post or two.(I tried to go back and follow them all) The GUEST (?) who is trying to use various names all of whom seem to be names similar to those of "minions of Hitler" I applaud your ability to be anonymous. I have a few things to say and I will do so as succintly as possible at the risk of getting the "you see everything in black and white" label tossed at me. In regards to "races": I looked at my photo essay book taken by the Apollo astronauts and couldn't see the boundaries on the globe or the different colors for the different countries.So where do you "draw the lines"? Perhaps it is only politics. I will also point out that this site MUDCAT is about music and that if we want to think about the "monsters" that the Germans were we should all take a clue from that favorite song of mine. Christmas in the Trenches. After singing with someone, how can you shoot at them.. this is what boggles my mind. Thirdly, and lastly for now, If anyone has ever read a book called The Oracle it was written by O'Connor in the late 1950's about a guy who was a radio commentator. (I think Rush may have read this and modeled himself after the hero). In any event the point I make is that nothing is new and hate was used against misunderstood or threatening peoples forever. Lions ate Christians in Rome the home of the Roman Catholic Church. Things change always and the winners write the history but change isn't a matter of centuries now but minutes and this machine that I am using now is one of the reasons that the changes will be even faster. If we all just try to not kill or hurt each other I think that is the noblest thing a human can do. (stepping off soap box) Thanks.. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM Gordon, you are correct. I should not have referred to the Jewish people as a "race". Quite right. I apologize for my lazy use of language in so doing, and thank you for drawing my attention to it. I won't make that mistake again. There are certainly Jews to be found in most, if not all, racial groups across this world. I should therefore have referred to the Jewish people as a religious and cultural community, not a race. Most of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust were indeed of the same so-called "Aryan" white European racial stock as were the Nazis. How ironical! I realize that neo-Nazis use many of the same explanations (in part)that I have when describing the rise of Naziism in prewar Germany. It is a sad thing that people will often use portions and fragments of the truth to aid and abet what is overall a lie...such as the ludicrous neo-Nazi assertion that the Holocaust never happened....or that the persecution of the Jews was somehow justified. If I were aware of the presence of any neo-Nazis around me (I don't think I've ever met one) I would avoid them. I just hate to see bigotry going in either direction. I truly believe that all the Earth's people are of one spirit, and are therefore one people. I feel concerned for any victims of oppression or aggression anywhere. For those whom I have inadvertently offended in my zeal to explain these concerns, I ask your patience and your understanding, and I regret if I have caused you any offence. It was not intended. Little Hawk |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:23 AM Gordon, you are correct. I should not have referred to the Jewish people as a "race". Quite right. I apologize for my lazy use of language in so doing, and thank you for drawing my attention to it. There are certainly Jews to be found in most, if not all, racial groups across this world. I should therefore have referred to the Jewish people as a religious and cultural community, not a race. Most of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust were indeed of the same so-called "Aryan" white European racial stock as were the Nazis. How ironical! I realize that neo-Nazis use many of the same explanations (in part)that I have when describing the rise of Naziism in prewar Germany. It is a sad thing that people will often use portions and fragments of the truth to aid and abet what is overall a lie...such as the ludicrous neo-Nazi assertion that the Holocaust never happened....or that the persecution of Jews was somehow justified. If I were aware of the presence of any neo-Nazis (I don't think I've ever met one) I would avoid them like the plague. I just hate to see bigotry going in either direction. I truly believe that all the Earth's people are of one spirit, and are therefore one people. I feel concerned for any victims of oppression or aggression anywhere. For those whom I have inadvertently offended in my zeal to explain these concerns, I ask your patience and your understanding, and I regret if I have caused you any offence. It was not intended. Little Hawk |
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Subject: To Little Hawk From: GUEST,Gordon Gottleib Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM To Little Hawk: You claim that you are not anti-Semitic. However, in your postings, you have consistently incorporated the traditional language and ideas of anti-Semites, Nazis and neo-Nazis. In your missive of 11:21 PM last night, you refer to the Jewish people as a "race." Referring to Jews as such is the language of racists. Most of the Jews of the world, including virtually all of those exterminated in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, are racially caucasian (white); they are of the same race as the Aryan Nazis. There are also racially black Jews; for example, the Falashas of Ethiopia. There are even small, continuing enclaves of Asian Jews in China. In today's world, only anti-Semites refer to Jews as a "race." This is what allows American neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan to differentiate Jews from "white" people. Your explanations of pre-war and war-period Naziism, that the Nazis "genuinely believed that the Jews had done terrible things to Germany," are taken directly from the revisionist histories now popular among anti-Semites who seek to justify the Holocaust. If you use the langauge of the anti-Semites, you create the conditions for people to assume that you are one. Sincerely, Gordon Gottleib |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:02 AM Carri Su - for sure, yes. There were quite a number of Germans who recognized the Nazi party for what they truly were (a racist bunch of fanatics, under an emotionally disturbed leadership). Some of them (like Marlene Dietrich) left Germany. Others stayed and resisted, and more than a few of them died for it. Some tried to assassinate Hitler, and they were tortured and executed. Those people were heroes, and I recognize them as such. So, yes, I agree with your point. We must not let ourselves be fooled and used by Nazis or extremists of whatever stripe. I would further say that all aggressive warfare is a form of genocide, which is why I am a pacifist to all extents possible. The people I draw inspiration from, in that sense, are Gandhi, Jesus, Martin Luther King, and Joan Baez...among others. I have no problem with defensive warfare...defending one's own land and people against invasion. That is entirely understandable. As for armed intervention on behalf of others, on foreign ground...that's a very tricky issue. You have to judge each situation on its own merits when it comes to that...
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: CamiSu Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM Hey Praise, we understand. It's just that you express your Christianity kindly and not aggressively, (actually like most of us try to). We realize you haven't ascended yet, but we'll wave when you do. Actually to be a bit more serious, you are right about the word sin. As well as the word evil. And breaking the commandments is a bit more than being an a**. Trouble is that the same hypocrites that have hijacked John's beloved fundamentalism and given a lot of good people a very bad name, have hijacked the idea of sin, attached it to those whose only crime is not agreeing with them, and caused any number of people to pitch out the bath water, baby and all. David Gelernter wrote an interesting article on the idea of evil after Ted Kaczynski was arrested. While his viewpoint could certainly be called biased (David lost a hand to a unabomber package) he makes a point that true evil must not be tolerated. click here While I don't agree with all he has to say, I do think we need to stand up to the evil and make sure the one expressing it understands that it is not acceptable, and that it must stop. And Little Hawk, while most people can be tempted by wrong, I would like think that many of us have learned enough to not go along with genocide, though as I think about it the Hutus and Tutsis were able to stir up exactly that altogether too easily. But even there, there were those who refused to go along, as there were in Nazi Germany. One strong leader against wrong can do wonders for the cause of right. John, please stick around. I was given a bumper sticker the other day that I really like. 'Love the Bigot, Hate the bigotry'. Not easy to do but necessary for the healing of the world (as I contemplate just how far I am from this ideal). Love to you all Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:21 PM Whoo boy... I've been too busy to look in on this one for some time...like 2 days. Lonesome EJ - you are correct in your objection to that one section in my original post about Nazis forgiving Jews...I didn't express it very clearly. There was nothing for them to forgive the Jews FOR. Obviously. What I was thinking of was the Nazis back in the 30's and 40's. They genuinely believed that the Jews had done terrible things to Germany (and they were MISTAKEN IN THAT BELIEF!). I was thinking of those Nazis then, and that they should have forgiven the Jews at that time...instead of abusing them and killing them. Of course, the said Jews were entirely innocent, in any case, and in no need of anyone's forgiveness, but the Nazis didn't THINK that they were innocent. I am absolutely NOT anti-semitic. I consider the Jewish race to be an utterly marvelous and gifted people who have made an immeasureable positive contribution to the world in more ways than can possibly be counted by you or me or anyone. My favourite musician of all time is a Jew. Numerous of my personal heroes are Jews. Jesus was a Jew, and it is his teachings that have provided me with a clear understanding of rightful human conduct. I am not anti-anybody. There is only one race on this planet anyway, AND IT'S CALLED THE HUMAN RACE. That includes you, me, and every German and every Jew that was ever born on this Earth. All else is illusion. We are all one family here. I consider the Nazis to have been one of the most vicious and insane regimes ever to have rampaged across the Earth. I detest Nazi philosophy. I detest Fascist philosophy, and I am not too fond of Communists either. I would never deny that the Holocaust occured, nor would I ever deny that it resulted in the death of 6 million Jews, and numerous other people. The Nazis were the worst thing that has ever happened to Germany, and they must never be permitted to rise again anywhere. Is it possible to forgive such things as the Holocaust? Yes...but it's not easy. I don't know if I would be able to forgive it, had I experienced it directly. I just don't know. I know that Jesus or Gandhi would have been able to, however. I don't expect everyone to understand that, or be capable of it, because I don't even know if I'm capable of it. If you can't imagine forgiving it, I understand just how you feel and I respect that. But...If you can find the strength to forgive even the worst, you will reap a reward far greater than maybe you can imagine. You will heal what you thought could never be healed. Just try it and see. Don't take my word for it. Just try it and see. And if you don't want to...okay. It's your life. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:30 PM Aw gee, I can't resist the request to write a treatise on love. T'were better left for another day, methinks. Oh well. I did have a few thoughts left over from another line of thinking, and I might as well lay them here like a bunch of flowers at a road wreck. First, to John and Greg. You guys came so close. I pray you persist in communicating across these great divides. I have been doing just that over a real wide chasm since.... early spring now, intentionally, with one person. And boy am I a different person. And the only thing that allowed a bridge that could thrread across that windy chasm? Love. Yup. Now that person warn't no Nazi (you know who you are, dear!), but.... same thing. IF it come to me that God had put a Nazi, a neo-Nazi, a neo-a**hole of any sort into my path and sort of drew a pink, glowing line around them and said, "Susan, go to it, for Me...." ... I would. And the only weapons at hand that I know for sure would do any good at all would be Truth and Love. And when someone is pretty messed up, and doing lots of bad things, they can't--funtionally-- hear truth. But they can see and feel love, especially love they have not earned at ALL. And thus a bridge can start. And Truth can walk out on it. I am not saying it always does. I said, IT CAN. Now, this week, today-- there is a certain someone who I cannot tell for sure, does he or does he not have that pink lighted glow around him? I can't see through my own filters at the moment. But I have received messages from time to time indicating I may actually have a role to play in that person's life, and good Lord, it's scary, but if it IS God's will for me to do it, He will keep me safe and no doubt there will be amazing blessings for me in the effort. I can already see the blessings from prior efforts. I would not give back a single one of them. And it takes a lot more now to scare me. I am braver now with EVERYONE, for having made those efforts for a few scary people. Just look how my posts have changed... So.... HOW and WHY do you love someone who is committed to evil....? How is, you find one thing about them that is theoretically lovable, and you start there. You don't give an inch. You don't look for rose colored glasses to help you get that pinkish light. (I am making that color part up, it's just a metaphor, there is no pink light, sheesh!). Then you put that love into action. You help. You help however it loOks like you can, in the area where they are observably human and obviously struggling. You pray to see this all clearly of COURSE. And you keep looking at that lovable part and it begins to grow. They start showing you stuff they usually keep hidden. And after awhile, you begin to speak truth. Small truth. You find yourself doing it naturally, in context, within the relationship that has grown into being. You show that you are solid and really there and really will handle what comes up. You take responsibility for your own upsets. When the person makes you nuts, you go find a good safe place to open up your heart and let out the hurt and ugliness, away from that evil person so they don't blame themsleves for your lack of perfect calm. And you keep going... and going.... and amazing things happen. Love given when not earned is so powerful. I know you all know how powerful love is, when it seems warranted. It is the unwarranted that unglues the evil and allows the intact human desire for goodness, still in that person, to breathe. And it wants to grow. And it does, often very fast. WHY do it? Because we can. Not perfectly!!!! And not always, every time. But it can be done. And why, again... Because it steals the power to harm, too. And why, again? For me, because Jesus said to me that He wants it, and I am past doing things on orders (which also are there), to doing them for love of Him, and because I trust that what He wants is so good that is it bound to be better thqn what I thought I wanted. But see, He loved me first, unwarranted, so I have a head start on passing it along. You look in your life, and see where you have been loved that way, and you will see how to pass it along, too. It doesn't have to be a Nazi. It can be anyone you think you can't forgive. I promise, if you start, you will never be the same. And neither will the world around you. And why again... well, because we want to live in the world we envision. We can, when we work to make it so. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: DougR Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:57 PM You mean I get the LAST word? Little Hawk, I read the post in question and have mixed feelings. It seems to be a mixture of fact and opinion. but to expect the Jews to ever forgive the Nazi? Never. DougR P.S. Guest EZ, sorry I dumped on you. You completely took me in. I thought you were really neoNazi! |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM The Nazis weren't aliens from another galaxy. They were ordinary human beings, very like the people who live in your street and in my street. They liked beer and foklksongs and Disney movies.
People who had done appalling things came home and went on with their lives, and melted imperceptibly into the ordinary world.
That's what's so frightening. The potential to be like them is there inside us. This animal is not to be trusted.
Pretending the Nazis were totally different from us is comforting, but it doesn't do anything to help in finmding ways of avoiding the truiggers that can turn seemingly decent people into "monsters and enemies of the human race", in Nazi Germany, in Ruanda, in My Lai. A few years ago people were sweeriously advocating dropping nuclear weapons on enemy cities. There are still people who say things like "Nuke 'em" when conficts spriong up, and they give every sign of meaning it. And the ordinary decent peopel around them howl out and recoil in horror, they shrug and mutter things like "Well, I don't know, mebbe..." Or they nod in agreement.
I think Praise was right, and it's time to cut this thread. Things are being said that should never be said, and Little Hawk in particular has had what he said grotesquely distorted. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: dick greenhaus Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:08 AM May I a) return to the original topic and b) voice a dissenting opinion? (the question is obviously rhetorical, as I'm not waiting for an answer) The use of hyperbole is a fine, useful tool in language. "Folk Nazi" doesn't trivialize Nazis any more than "a flood of letters" trivializes the Johnstown flood or " so-and-so bombed at a concert" trivializes bombs. The conscious exaggeration provides a quick emotional trigger, which is why it was used in the first place; it's not a matter of logical interpretation. And, while I personally detest Mr. Limbaugh, I think that FemiNazi was a brilliant, evocative neologism. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Jeri Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:45 AM There seems to be a prevalent belief in USian culture (can't speak for anyone else) that anger makes us strong. Anger is one step away from hate. Be the target Nazis, a guest on Jerry Springer, politicians, people we don't agree with or those who post nasty messages to Mudcat, some of us revel in indignant anger. Some of us wear it like an old coat. Some of us look for enemies, people to hold in contempt, as Ram does above, people to de-humanize. We are righteous, we are on a crusade. There are reasons to be angry, but IMO, one shouldn't make a lifestyle out of it. Anger is one step away from hate. Anger can justify any treatment of fellow humans. ("ROT IN HELL" ???) You let it cool down and solidify, and it actually becomes hate. The next time you see the monster, it will be in your mirror - even if looks to you like a person who thinks they have a RIGHT to treat other people like sub-humans.
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Ram Shackle Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:04 AM I've read and reread the essay by Little Hawk. It is an offensive piece of anti-Semitic garbage. As far as I'm concerned the Nazis, and their modern day followers, are and were MONSTERS and enemies of the human race. I have nothing but contempt for the Little Hawks of this world who would seek to humanize these murderers, these monsters. To the Little Hawks of this world, I say ROT IN HELL with your Nazi friends. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:28 AM I must apologize. I have to admit that I couldn't really see why my questions were percieved as attempts to be a "flamer". I now see that it is because of the inherant dishonesty in the way I asked the questions--always attempting to ask in a way that I thought might cause you to see things from a different perspective, rather than to just elicit an answer. I should have been wise enough to recognize 1.(from having read the "Have you changed your mind" thread) that it was unlikely, 2.I'm the outsider and you owe me no explanations. If I had approached you honestly I would have stated from the very outset that the reason I feel this whole nazi/bigot/tolerance issue so strongly is that I fear becoming the next victim of the next wave (of genocide or at least its political equivalent). Whichever came first I don't know, but my beloved fundamental Christianity has been stolen by a small vocal leadership that I believe to be distorting its core (fundamental) truth. As a result I am aware that I'm watching a whole society, hell-bent on tolerance at any cost, choose Christianity (and to a lesser extent, any "revelatory" religion) as the only thing intolerable. I have changed my mind (to answer the before mentioned thread). I now think that there is no "you" here at the mudcat. I think "you" is as varied as the chords on my guitar (I'm pretty sure that that "catspaw" guy is an aug chord, but I don't think there's a dim one in the house). I really have appreciated so many of the thoughtful posts, CamiSu's last one particularly on point, and I'll probably continue to lurk around here (like a rubbernecker at an auto accident) until this thread peters out, but I think/hope I've learned my place. John |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: DougR Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:33 AM Guest who posted at 12:28am on the 16th of September: Your reply would have had a much greater impact had you had the cojones to sign your name to it. I recognize good sarcasm when I see it. DougR (Who cannont understand why anyone who feels strongly about a subject is reluctant to sign his/her name when posting to a thread) |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:27 AM I vote no. Thomas the Rhymer here, having to post under my sweet lover's name, because she accidently assumed my identity when she began hers!!!
There is so much pain in this world. Plenty of it came from pain. Blaming others is not a solution. Flaming decent people is abhorent. Reacting is abhorent. So is stuffing emotion. Humans may seek enlightenment, but that does not mean we all do. Why is this?
I despise the situations that 'inspire' people to become fascists. Nazi is insanity. People seem to think that we have no responsibility to others, except to our family, our country, our friends... But strangers? Of strangers we are suspicious, of strangers we allow ourselves to think fear into the equation. Why is this?
I just don't ascribe to the notion that the Nazi is lovable. I can relate to the notion that child within the Nazi is starving for love and that we can deliver... Perhaps we should act differently now than people did in WW2, but it is kind of hard to imagine loving someone who wants to kill you, and intends to see it through. ESPECIALLY if you are morally bound to ethical behavior. I admire the "resistance" that worked underground during that war, and there is no telling how many lives were saved because of it. I just don't appreciate handing your good life over to the cruel and despotic, as a fine option. Unless (maybe), it is in civil disobedience... |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:38 AM I propose we end this thread now. It has served a number of good purposes. But many of us know that it is now attracting posts best ignored. So how about it? How abou we move on now? Vote yes by not posting. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Bill D Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:37 AM can't help but wonder how 'Ernst' and 'Rush' and various anonymous guests would phrase these things face to face... The WWW sure has made it easy to spew vitriol and nastiness and to sow rancor with impunity, huh? Used to be you had to get your hands dirty with Mimeograph ink and stick leaflets under car windows....but now we have progress! (cant even tell if we have one 'guest' or 27 being snide and cynical) |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM Now that Little Hawk has spoken and treated us to his all-knowing, infinite wisdom, I see no further need for discussion about Hitler and Nazis. He has enlightened us so that we all may rejoice in the fact that Hitler and his cronies were just misunderstood little men and the Holocaust was just a prank. Wow, I just feel so darn good, now! I bet there are lots of people who feel all better about it. Shall we take a poll ... Groucho Marxist (be sure to show this thread to your parents) ... Guest,Jew (it's obviously time for a re-write of the history books) ... Moonchild & Moonchild's stepgrandmother (tell her Bergen Belsen was really Elizabeth Arden's Red Door) ... Guest,Buber (hey, relatives aren't really all they're made out to be)? Hmmm. I'm not getting a real good response from them, so maybe they are just skeptics. Editorials on The Holocaust, or any holocaust, are out of place. Period. It happened, it continues to happen. Period.
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:24 AM First, help! Get me offa this damn pedestal! Yeah, hand me down like an old lady out of a carriage... creaky knee... various shortcomings.... the day's failures.... the ethnic jokes I used to tell... mistakes as a parent, bad ones..... a lie here or there.... naw, I ain't confessing, I have already done so and been forgiven, but PLEASE see ALL of me, even when I am working hard to share only my best, friends! Or I don't wanna be here! Second, could I suggest that we avoid the temptation to keep adding every possible public example of stupidity to the list? The thread will get far too long to load, in no time. We will have endless Parts III, IV, and so on... the planet is quite full of people who have used some of their 15 minutes of fame to wave their stupdidity aloft. I have a theory. Christians and non-Christians, tell me what you think. It's my new way of describing what sin is. Have you noticed how that word [sin] has the effect of entirely turning most minds off? What if instead we were to say, "Oh, sin just means you were [or I was] acting like an a**hole again." Don't we all do that? Can we all agree that it is part of the human way as we know it today? OK, so if we can agree on that to some extent, then the problem of judging others, convicting them in our hearts, should be something we can give up. We can just decide to see it as, "Oh, they were just taking their turn at acting like an a**hole. Now I can take mine." Assume that at any given moment between two people, at least one of them is acting (or is about to act!) like an.... Because my theory is that acting like an a**hole is the first thing people tend to do as soon as we get close enough to another human being to feel like it might be safe. You see it most clearly with children. Just as soon as they are sure you are completely delighted with them, they start showing off how they can squish mashed potatoes through their teeth. Well I have decided to see flamers like that. That they have found a place where there is enough evidence of decent humanity to squish out some mashed potatoes to see what kind of reaction they will get. Me, I think I will react by playing peekaboo, I see you. Kids love that game. Yeah. Now I know how to ALWAYS have fun at the Mudcat. When I see someone acting like an a**hole, I will not only pray for them, I'll play peekaboo or offer to tickle them. Aw. Hey, remind me somebody, if I forget? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: CamiSu Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:11 AM Little Hawk, While I can hear your point, the people who were Nazis did think they were Christians, and as far as I know, all Christians adhere to the commandments, of which one is 'Thou shalt not kill'. While it is a basic tenet of my (Christian) faith that all of mankind are God's children and are infinitely lovable as such, those that do not express God in the form of (in the case of the Nazis) loving their neighbors (Which as Jesus pointed out could well be someone of a totally different faith and culture)and not killing, stealing, etc. are very difficult to love concretely. I'm sorry, I do think many of those who gave the orders for the 'final solution' were not even in their own eyes saving the world, but ridding the world of a people they hated. And many of them knew it was wrong. But they did it anyway. You are absolutely right that all cultures have practiced genocide. It does not make it right, and we all need to work to rid the world of these wrongs, no matter who the perpetrator and who the victim. ( I think some of the things the Isrealis are doing to the Palestineans are pretty awful as well and need to stop.) And we need to start with the hate we feel. OK I'll try. I have a young man with some definite neo-nazi sympathies living in my house right now as an AFS student. Truly I think the best I can give him is a healthy dose of a more liberal viewpoint, so he will maybe understand why most people find the neo-nazi way of looking at the world to be wrong. I cannot beat him over the head or pitch him out, but maybe I can love SOME of the hell out of him. P.S. I too have listened to Rush--for as long as I could stand it--and found him to be unwilling to answer those he didn't agree with in a civil manner, instead resorting to name calling and disconnection when he couldn't cow a caller he disagreed with. And no I have much better things to do with my time now than listen to him... Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:16 PM As a one-time statement- subsequently apologized for, as Gore did- from someone I disagreed with, yes, it would be 'unfortunate'. As an oft-repeated exemplar of a career of intolerence, such as Mr. Limbaugh's, it would not. Cheers. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:06 PM Ok Yank, but again, was it merely "unfortunate" would it merely be "unfortunate" out of the mouth of somebody with whom you don't agree? I still think the nature of the original question is intact. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM Gore (1994) was commenting on that paragon of truth and virtue Oliver North and his lunatic fringe right-wing Iran-Contra supporters with the admittedly unfortunate chromosome bit. Had nothing whatsoever to do with religion. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,Rush Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:11 PM Religious fundamentalists of whatever persuasion being possibly the greatest bigots in the universe this should not be a problem! Now, how do we turn YOU off? |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:49 PM McGrath, Sorry, I was trying to short-cut on future thoughts by implying the impact of the answer. Al Gore is the future president referred to and extra chromosome refers to the medical condition that causes Down's syndrome. The reason for the short-cut was that I thought with the number of forum members who intend to vote fpr Mr Gore they might catch the implication. If a radio talk-show host shows his bigotry by the inflammatory language he uses he can be turned off/ignored. By one's answer one might conclude that it is tolerable to that person for me to have a president who is bigotted against me for my religious beliefs. John |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:28 PM Which future president was that? And was he thinking having an extra chromosone was a good thing or a bad thing? Some of these future presidents (and past and present presidents for that matter - and prime ministers as well) seem to have considerable lacunae in their knowledge about things like that... |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: mousethief Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:25 PM Moonthief? I knew there was a man in the moon, but MICE?
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:18 PM Sorry, I remembered after punching "submit" it's EXTRA chromosome. Question's still the same. John |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:42 PM Unless I am much mistaken the post by GUEST Ernst Zundel was intended as heavy irony. Heavy-handed maybe as well, but from an anti-nazi position. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened here. Irony is a risky weapon to wield.
And of course I could be wrong, from the other side of an ocean divide that's not just water. If I was just going by the Limbaugh quotes I'd think he was a leftie taking the piss out of the people who believe that stuff.
And moonthief, of course I'm not saying we shouldn't use our judgement about who we should trust, and what is likely to be the result of our decisions. We should and we must, and too much of the time we don't. What I'm saying is that we mustn't get into the way of thinking we are ok, we are morally better than other people who do things we haven't yet done. It's people thinking and talking in those terms who have done the worst things in history. "I thank you Lord that I am not like that publican..."
All the monsters aren't out there in the dark - if we think they are we are letting them in the back door. That's not just true in horror movies.
As for the Nazis, it wasn't so much that they were more evil than people in all the other nations who have being involved in ethnic cleansing - but they carried it through with an obsessive mechanical efficiency which made the effect far far worse. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: DougR Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM I partially agree with you, MBO. If enough people were to ignore Rush, not listen to him at all, he would go away. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Mbo Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:12 PM It's funny how my one little phrase turned into this. That's right folks, Rush is EVIL! Why don't we just Zyklon-B him as well? Come on. He's a flamer just like any other. Ignore him and he will go away. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:09 PM I have a question. I don't mean to be obstinate or overly inflammatory. I would just like an honest, introspective answer. Were any of you this disturbed/angry/outraged when our next president (USA) referred to Christian conservatives as "the missing chromosome..."? |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Kim C Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM Well, maybe not all despots are contrary people. Perhaps some of them are just plain wicked. :) |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: SDShad Date: 15 Sep 00 - 03:29 PM I don't know, Kim. Ecclesiastes is on of my favorite books in the Bible, and in a general, yin-and-yang, fundamental-interconnectednes-of-all-things sort of way, I see the point you're making. But somehow, I just don't think that the people of Guernica would've found much worthwhile in the notion that Francisco Franco was just being a heyoka. But yeah. Limbaugh definitely fits into the "cautionary example to others" category. At least. Chris |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Kim C Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM Who's seen the movie Little Big Man? Remember the Contrary Person, who did everything backwards? Several years ago I read a book about Plains Indian customs, and sure enough, the Contrary Person really did exist. This person did everything backwards so that other people, especially children, would know how NOT to behave. Taking into account the yin and yang of the Universe, and the 3rd chapter of Ecclesiastes, the Rush Limbaughs and Howard Sterns and Francisco Francos and various and sundry other despots will always be around in some form. There is a time to love, a time to hate, a time for war, and a time for peace. That's not likely to change anytime soon. :) |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: mousethief Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:16 PM I think the whole thing about "the only person you can judge is yourself" is a little too strongly stated. I'm a father, and if I'm trying to hire a babysitter for my kids, you damned well BET I'm going to JUDGE that person, and if I think they are at all likely to harm my kids in any way, I won't hire them. Unlimited "open-mindedness" is for people without kids. Those of us with children can't afford it.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: SDShad Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:38 PM Is Rush Limbaugh bigoted? Consider the following text quoted from the FAIR site that mousethief linked to:
I dunno. You tell me. Chris |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Ebbie Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM Consider this a sidebar, please! Little Hawk, I haven't seen the book, Other Losses, but I found the e-dress where the author is selling it: www.jamesbacque.com. I must say the blurb promoting the book bothers me- it sounds straight out of National Enquirer, the Globe, et al. Bacque may be a legitimate researcher/writer but the blurb does not invite confidence. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM Last night, after signing off, I felt seriously in need of a "music bath". I don't often find myself in the position of correcting the record on Limbaugh--a distasteful task in and of itself. I started by playing through "Secret O' Life, "Hope (Robin's Song)"-Morrison ...You've got to stare it in the face, you can't flinch and look away You can't deny what's going down But if you draw your loved ones around you and you hang on tight you can hold a little ground. When all is said and done Here at the ending of the day I look out on this world-- It still takes my breath away. I played some comforting hymns ending with Amazing Grace (which I played as a sad blues last night). I always remember an obscure news story from a few years ago. The story was about the vacationing First Family inviting James Taylor to come over to their vacation house and serenade them. A slow grin spread from ear to ear as I suddenly realized that it was JT who had the real power at that summit. The government can make me miserable, poor, even jeopardize my life, but music can touch my soul, encourage me to be a better man than I currently am in spite of my circumstances. Music can bring together a diverse group as this to civily discuss issues about which we REALLY disagree. WE have the power. Old Devil fear, you with your icy hands Old Devil fear, you'd like to freeze me cold When I'm afraid, my lovers gather 'round And help me fight you one more time Old Devil hate, I knew you long ago Before I learned the poison in your breath Now when I hear your lies, my lovers gather 'round And help me rise to fight you one more time No storm nor fire can ever beat us down No wind that blows, but carries farther on And you who fear, oh lovers gather 'round And we will rise to sing it one more time -Seeger (sorry I don't know how to do the clickety thing) Now, this guest has overstayed his wecome. Best wishes, John |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Grab Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:48 AM Posted as a reply to folks from the last thread:- Mike and offended guest, I'm sincerely sorry if it sounded bigoted - that wasn't my intention at all. I can only say that I find any and all discrimination totally disgusting, and the "tribal" attitude of gangs of various natures beating up on others, particularly those weaker than themselves, is sickening. My question about whether the greater Jewish population in the US affects how the whole country sees the war was an honest query. Whilst the US lost least (in terms of ppl, property and money) in the war, there's ppl criticising comedy programmes about the war as demeaning those involved, which seems to be excessively touchy to me, but then I'm from the UK and I don't know the US culture. I do know that there is a large Jewish population in the US, so I was simply asking whether this affects things - whether it's considered that it was so close to home for them that comedy about the war is generally considered to be in bad taste. I know there's plenty to be ashamed of about that war, not least that the British and Americans were conspicuous by their silence during the late 30's, when some Jewish refugees were forcibly repatriated to Germany (and to their deaths) by both countries in various incidents, and also with the indiscriminate bombing of civilians by both the Allied and Axis planes. I find this shameful for the countries involved, but since neither I nor even my father were alive then, it's not something I can feel personally involved in, any more than I can feel personally upset about the conditions my Scottish ancestors faced under English rule. 3 generations on, it's history - admittedly it's recent history, and an example of what should never be allowed to happen again (although the UN seems to be powerless to stop it), but it's something that happened in the past nonetheless. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but the fact that my grandfather may have shot and been shot at doesn't change my attitude to the war. What _isn't_ history is the fact that thugs exist everywhere and need to find excuses to justify their mindless violence. There's the KKK and black street-gangs in the US, there's Catholics and Protestants in NI, there's Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda, there's football (soccer) fans in Britain - the list is endless. Regardless of education or geographic location, tribalism seems to be a feature of the human condition. But there's a great Terry Pratchett line which sums it up - "Only animals can't help the way they are". If we're human beings with individual consciousness, and with a _conscience_ too, then we shouldn't give in to that kind of impulse. It's called "civilisation" and "society". And by far the easiest way of getting rid of support for a bigoted viewpoint is making its supporters look ridiculous. Alf Garnett with his bigoted views was a classic comedy character, but at the same time he summed up the bigoted attitudes of older ppl of the time and made them look utterly stupid. GeorgeH, the far right are seriously in favour of gun ownership. Hence the phrase "gun Nazis" could actually have some real-life meaning, ie. neo-Nazis who own guns. Or was the person earlier (somewhere on the other thread...) who came up with that phrase using it about ppl who were _against_ gun ownership? Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: DougR Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:06 AM Greg F: I realize you are probably gone, but I must have given you the wrong impression. I wasn't apologizing. I was merely pointing out that you had selected a posting out of context. Not uncommon practice in some circles when one wants to discredit someone. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Cont'd THOUGHTS, terms such as 'nazi' From: Lonesome EJ Date: 15 Sep 00 - 01:55 AM Little Hawk, although I find myself in agrrement with many of the points in your lengthy post,I have to take issue with the statement "Until Nazis recognize that Jews are equal humans (not monsters), and until Jews recognize that Nazis are equal human beings (not monsters)...neither one of them will be free of the horror of the past...or the desire for vengeance. We should not forget, but we should always forgive." To me,this statement puts on a par Jews,who are a religious sub-culture of the world, with Nazis,who were a behavioral aberration of the German people,their beliefs induced by a madman. While the Jews may show forgiveness for the German people,it is ridiculous that any forgiveness be extended to the Nazis of the Third Reich,or to anyone who would in today's world call themselves by that sobriquet.If the Nazis did not transform themselves from human beings into monsters,they sure as hell had a better go at it than nearly any other group I could name. I think it was this statement that invited the retaliation by Ernst Zundel. In his outrage,he cast himself as a neo-Nazi to throw a figurative arm over your shoulder and damn you as a comrade. When you state that the average German soldier did not believe his cause evil,I agree. But the average German was not a Nazi.Many average Germans did,however,sell their souls to the Nazis for the price of a little Pride and Prosperity. |
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