BS: Yet another theological question!

Subject: Yet another theological question!
From: GUEST,Luke
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:22 PM

Hey, someone can help me. How can I tell if I am a member of a "sect" or a 'cult"?

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 09:59 PM

What's this got to do with Folk Music, pray tell?

There are some fairly crediable books on the subject, some of which I used during a past life years ago to lead an adult Bible Study on the subject. there are several distinguishing criterion generally accepted by the vast majority of "mainstream" traditional Theologians. These include "Exclusive Community of the Elect": ergo: "WE're all goin' to Heaven but you damned infidels(heritics etc.) are all going to HELL!!! Nyah nyah nhya! Another is "Extracannonical Sources of Authority": If the Old Scriptures/Bible don't please us (or give us sufficient control over others), let's just write a more "enlightened" or "recently inspired" set of rules... like "Pearl of Great Price", "Book of M____","Doctrines and Covenants", the "Chatechisim" (oops; better DUCK here!) whereby ritual, practice, and in some cases lifestyle is dictated by the later works more so than the ancient standard "cannonical" Scriptures. The interpretation of biblical text is the strict pervue of the founders or leaders of the cult, and critical thinking, analysis, or open-mindedness of any sort within the "flock" are not condoned or tolerated, and in many instances severely sanctioned. Remember the "Spanish Inquisition"? (OOps! better DUCK again!) "Central Role in Eschatology": teaching that this particular group, to the exclusion of all others, will have a pivitol role in the "end times"; will recieve special treatment, rewards, and honors for keeping steadfastly true to the mores of the cult despite all opposition... and in many cases common sense. There are more, but I'm boring you terribly (Theology has a way of doing that), I forgot most of 'em, and if I were to keep on this course, someone out there would be craving my blood... if they arn't already! Seek patiently after the Truth, and in due season He will find you out. Don't be afraid to inquire of crediable, sincere (yes, there are some still out there) Ministers, Priests, Rabbis, or persons of charachter and concience in whom you discern the Light. You can pretty much trust your conscience and spiritual instincts: The Creator put them there for a reason. Look up into the star-filled night sky, or a flaming sunset, and commune freely with the transcendant Spirit; let it be a dialouge. Be still at times, listening with your heart. Go up on a mountain and sing "Kumbiah" or "Amazing Grace" or something like that. Listen to the wind. Seek out the Light, then touch it to your heart, and see what flame springs forth!

Shalom: "Uncle Jaque"

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: hesperis
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 10:26 PM

If they try to cut you off from your family because your family are 'unbelieves', or insist that you convert your family to their/your beliefs, that is usually a pretty good indication it's a cult. And a dangerous cult, at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:14 PM

Geeze, Uncle Jacque, in your opening sentence you came down pretty hard on Guest Luke, didn't you?

Not all threads posted relate to folk music! I know there are those who wish that they did, but take a look at existing threads and see if that's not true.

Guest Luke, if he is legit, is looking for help. I can't help because I know nothing about the subject, but few folks come hear asking for legitimate help and get turned away. Sorry if it sound like I'm preachy, but I was just trying to put myself in Guest Luke's shoes.

Cheers, DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:12 AM

Didn't mean to offend, dear hearts, but just a little curious as to what this forum is supposed to be about. I certainly don't mind responding to something a little off of the beaten path, and if you might have noticed, I think I at least gave it a fair shot in this instance. If indeed all subjects are "fair game" here, I won't mind at all rambling on about my dogs, favorite recipes, or how I get my 7 X 57 MM Mauser rifle to put 5 rounds inside of an inch at 100 yards either. I might even mention music from time to time. I'm frankly surprised that the Moderators have yet to "nuke" this thread, being as potentially controversial as it is. "Guest Luke": My appologies, Sir, if I have offended you; that was certainly not my intent. I'm a crusty old crumudgeon of a Yankee and I know I come off as a little abrasive at times, but I do try to maintain a modicum of civil decency along with the smouldering ashes of what once was Faith. It don't always come naturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:15 AM

Guest Luke,

Are you for real, or are you just yanking our ding-dongs?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Gern
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:13 AM

Why are so many responders so suspicious? If the topic doesn't appeal to you, let it ride. There is no need to question Luke's motives or back off from assumed controversy. And since when were "music" topics secure from controversy? Such scary topics as politics and religion have concerned songwriters and performers for milennia, and those who made an impact never backed off from a good controversy."Paranoia strikes deep..." As to Luke's question, both terms "sect" and "cult" are judgemental terms laden with accumulated assumptions they don't deserve. "Sect" implies a diversion from the norm, while "cult" has become encumbered with suggestions of Manson, Jim Jones and other horrid examples. Some are good, some are bad, and the individual must judge for themselves. But all of the world's major religions began as something of a sect or cult, and few of them are as evil as these terms imply today.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:53 AM

Just asking. Thought it might be good to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Hollowfox
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:17 PM

Some time ago, I was reading (I think) "Sacraments and Their Celebration" by Nicholas Halligan (Alba House, 1986); a book on Roman Catholicism. It referred to the "cult of the Virgin Mary", and obviously the author did not think this was either bad or unusual. Looking in the "Modern Catholic Dictionary" by John A Hardon (Doubleday, 1980), I see cult defined as "a definite form of worship...sometimes rendered "cultus" esp. when referring to the worship of the saints. Also a particular religious group centered around some unusual belief, generalally transient in duration and featuring some exotic or imported ritual and other practices." A sect is "An organized body of dissenters from an established or older form of faith..." Since you didn't mention just what you are a member of, you have to decide what to call it. As long as they aren't trying to separate you from friends and family, or "encouraging" you to put all of your money into their keeping (the usual "dangerous cult" signals), it probably doesn't matter which it is, if either.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: MarkS
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:29 PM

Uncle Jaque
What is your secret? 5 rounds inside an inch at 100 yards with a 7 X 57 is kinda untypical. Maybe if you said 3 inches, but well.
Did you cryogenically treat your barrel and to you load your own? What kind of powder and do you use boat tails or flat bases?
Hey, as long as we are not talking music lets make it intetesting!
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: GUEST,Luke
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

Sorry for the intrusion. I appreciate Uncle Jaque's response, even the opening line. Yes, Carol, I am for real. In my opinion, every road of life has been and will continue to be expressed through our music. Someone may ask, "What are your musical influences?", to which I must respond, "Every inch of this life I have lived has had effect in shaping every note I pluck." I am, and have always been, a seeker. I have found "truths", I have embraced and believed lies. A "magical" thing called "Grace" has led me into, and through, the lies; and while in those, I have learned many truths. But I have found, the ever-present "minister" to my soul manifest Himself through the music that starts deep within me and makes a long, mystical journey til it comes out the ends of my fingers upon my fretboard. I find in the folkies and their ilk, more understanding of the travail of the soul, than I would find with the rockers, rappers, and sh-t-kickers. That is why I asked you in Mudcat-land the original question. I deeply thank all for your varied responses. Grace and Peace to you all! Luke

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: The Beanster
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:08 PM

Luke, if you're serious and if you're asking if you could be in danger, others here have given you the hallmarks to watch for. If you are given the message, implicit or explicit, that non-members (even family and friends) are "outsiders" and all contact with them should be stopped; if they ask or demand that you give up money, material possessions, etc., to them; if illegal activity is taking place (for example, sexual contact with children, drug abuse, etc.)--or if you just feel in your gut that something's wrong, trust your instincts and get out of there.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM

Uncle Jaque: You are a helluva shot, that's for sure! Nice to find someone on the Mudcat who owns up to owning a gun!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Micca
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 08:14 PM

Luke if you are serious you could try applying tha Advanced Bonwits Cult Detector to your situation, it can be found here.Click here
If you have difficulty applying it honestly tht too may tell you something." If God gave us free will, why does he expect us to use it HIS way, and punish us if we get it wrong"

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 08:15 PM

Yeah, Doug, I noticed that too. Guns are so politically incorrect nowadays that people are pretty antsy on the subject...except for country people in remote areas, that is...like Canada's far north. There guns are pretty much taken for granted. If you meet a polar bear and you're on foot you had better damned well have a gun!

Guest Luke - I thoroughly appreciate your well-expressed thoughts about the role of Spirit in musical (and other forms) of creativity. Beautifully said.

I think that every organized religious group could be described as a sect, and that most of them can also be seen as a cult from the point of view of certain other people, who may disapprove in some way. The word "cult" usually has a negative connotation. It implies some form of mind control, brainwashing, or something along that line. The word "sect" does not carry any negative connotation.

I would make a case that bankers are a cult. They worship money. Politicians in a given party are a cult. They worship power. Fans of a hockey team are a cult. They worship victory. And so on. Lawyers are a cult. They worship money and litigation. Atheists are a cult. They worship their own rational intellect and their scientific rules of reality. Really dutiful Roman Catholics are a cult. They allow the Pope to do their thinking for them...an extraordinarily strange thing to do! And so on....

Of course, I'm stretching the usual definition of "cult" into areas where it is not usually applied...but that may provide useful food for thought....as well as exposing me to some flak...as usual.

You said: "Every inch of this life I have lived has had effect in shaping every note I pluck. I am, and have always been, a seeker."

Right on! Well said. Folk music (and all music) touches on and draws from every possible area of life, and expresses it anew in a musical and lyrical fashion. I see that you are not one to waste his life trudging across the desert of an unexamined life. Good for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From:
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:08 PM

Well GEE Doug you came down on Uncle Jaque pretty hard too! Uncle Jaque I liked what you said 'bout communing, with mountains, star filled skies, and Blazeing Sunsets, all three worthwhile ways to communicate with the Creator. Luke if ya listen to the secret voice of your heart,you'll know the answer. Chances are if your questioning your association with these people...There's probably a good reason for it.Peace-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:35 PM

Doug: If one owns a gun, one should know how to use it, I opine. Thanks for "coming out of the closet" (where many of us 2nd Ammendment types seem to be hiding out lately from the scorn, suspicion, and ridicule of a more politically correct and "enlightened" society). I don't mind taking a stand, even if it's a precarious and solitary one, if my heart holds it to be true and rightious. Have been trhrown out of many jobs and "careers" on account of that attitude, and it's probably a wonder that i've lived to be all of 52. But it's really nice to have a fellow pilgrim come out and keep me company on occasion!

The 7X57 Mauser is one of the oldest, yet one of the most inherently accurate high-power rifle cartriges still in production and common use. It is my personal favorite, followed closely by the 6.5X55MM "Swedish" M-94/96 military round. The Old 7 will do anything a .308 will do with proper handloads or military rounds(commercial factory loadings are notoriously underpowered due to the number of old Spanish M-91 Mausers and Remington rolling-block relics floating about), and do it without bruising your shoulder near as badly.

My Mauser was built by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium probably sometime in the 1950s for Venezualia, and is a piece of fine precicion machinery mounted with a 1.5X4 variable-power Bushnell telescopic sight. On 33/11/89 using a handload of 37.2 grains of AA 2460 under a 150 gr. NOSLER "Ballistic Tip" solid base boat-tail bullet in Remington-Peters brass capped with CCI #200 primers, I put 5 rounds off the bench into a 15/16" group at 100 yards. 3 of those holes were within 7/16 of each other. Not bad for a military "issue" rifle, eh? Groups under 2" are common. Although most of my private "arsenal" consists of muzzle-loaders, single-shot relics, clunkers and the like, as soon as the Clinton/Brady bunch started making serious noise about accelerating their victim disarmament agenda about 6 years ago and beating the drum about the evils of "assault rifles", I knew right away that i HAD TO HAVE ONE! So now I do, and wouldn't you know it, it's a 7MM! Yes they did make a dreaded "assault" rifle in 7MM; it's the venerable SAFN-49, a 10-shot semi-automatic. Roughtly equivalent to the US M-1 Garand of WWII ("Saving Pvt. RYAN" for those of you in/from the Government public school system), it's long, heavy, and awkward. It's 10 rds have to be stuffed in from the top, rather limiting it's tactical firepower significance.. but it has a politically condemned bayonet stud,and I even have a wicked-looking 17" bayonet that snaps right on! (I can hear the "Soccer-Moms" squeal now: "These drive-by bayonettings have just GOT to STOP!!!") The "49-er" is fun to tinker on and bang away with down at the range - although not nearly as accurate as the Mauser - and it remains my tangible symbol of defiance to the "cult" of political oppression. For how long remains to be seen. Oh, by the way; when they come for your guns, you might as well hand over your Bible, too. The Truth scares the hell out of these people, and they will not suffer any who espouse or cling to it to exist for long once they have their way. After the Scottish uprising was crushed in the 1740's, there were two things which Scots were prohibited, on pain of death, to possess or have access to: weapons, or the great Highland Pipes, whose cry was long associated with freedom, the sound of which tyrants can never abide. So we might just keep our guitars, banjos, fiddles and whistles next to the guns and Bible (if any) so as to make it convenient for the Gestapo to find them, and perhaps not have to tear up the house too badly looking for them. Unless, by chance, we agree to refrain from ever being controversial again and sing only "approved" songs. Frankly, I don't know many Musicians, "Folkie" or otherwise, who would go for that. If we don't want to be tactically active tomorrow, we'd better be politically active (and responsible) today! Not that I entertain any strong opinions on the matter, of course... The auld Yankee Reprobate: "Uncle Jaque"

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:43 PM

LittleHawk:

"Lawyers are a cult. They worship money and litigation."

I'm a lawyer. I worship neither money nor litigation. I think money is a necessary evil; and litigation is an extremely clumsy way to settle differences between individuals, which continues to be used because people in general are too damn lazy to think up a better one, and because, like gambling, it gets people excited about the prospect of getting something for nothing, or for very litte.

You are correct, to the extent that many lawyers worship money and litigation. But many blacks are stupid and shiftless. Many more are brilliant and energetic. Many Jews are greedy and conniving. Many others are generous and open. Why is it acceptable to generalize about one group on the basis of the worst examples but not among others?

My first draft for this post ended, "Why don't you go bugger yourself with something sharp?" But that's unkind and in bad taste, so I won't put that in after all.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM

Fellas. Please remember two things.

1. Think before you post.

2. Chances are someone has forgotten Number 1, above, as we all do from time to time.

Shake hands, now, OK?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: MarkS
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:52 PM

Uncle Jaque:
Didn't think you were using factory ammo. But don't the CCI primers cause you a bit of grief? They don't work well at all in my Dillon Square Deal, so I went to Federal and they work great. Hardly a miss now, but used to crunch the CCI all the time loading .45 ACP for Bullseye matches.
As for Mudcatters and firearms, only a few of us defend the pro side, but maybe a few more exchanges like this in our posts and we can make some converts.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Owlkat
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:10 AM

Hi, The definition of the word "Sect", as defined by the Gage Canadian Dictionary, copyright 1983, published by Gage.
Noun. 1:a group of people having the same principles, beliefs, or opinions. 2: A group of people forming part of a larger religious body, but rejecting some of the larger body's beliefs or customs.
"Cult". Noun. 1: a system of religious worship, eg; Buddhism includes many cults. 2: Great admiration for a person, thing, idea, eg; in the Soviet Union the cult of Stalin was discouraged after his death. 3: A group showing such admiration; worshippers.
Your welcome.
Owl.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: CamiSu
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:21 AM

Luke,

I think what you've been told is good, and if that guiding grace is coming from WITHIN you're probably going in the right direction. But to my mind the most important question is "Am I free to disagree, and to leave?" (I belong to a minority religion that is constantly having to guard its rights. And I have had a child in the hospital, with the staff respecting our viewpoint and had them coming to us expressing their amazement that our praying seemed to be having an effect beyond our son's bed to the whole ICU ward...)

Peter,

My dad was a lawyer and hated it. (He became one because he thought he should to please his father. He'd have much rather been an engineer.) My brother is one as well and loves it. I know several lawyers who do it for all the right reasons, and some who are really nasty people. I think most are not, but I do wish that sometime someone would stand up and say "enough, already! If you're guilty, plead guilty! I won't swallow camels and strain out gnats for someone who has done something wrong and been well and fairly caught out!" Trouble is, and I know 'cause I've had lawyers tell me they did just that, there seems to be plenty of the bad eggs around who see it all as a game and will take those cases... I'm glad to know you're around, if I do need someone with honor.

Now, how do you want that chicken?

Cami Su

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: khandu
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:37 AM

I have just signed on as a member of Mudcat. I appreciate the privelge. I think each soul craves affirmation. That is one reason we are delighted when we recieve a response on any thread we post. That is why we love to be greeted with a smile. That is why we desire conversation. We affirm one another. That is one reason I have decided to become a member of Mudcat. I have read the response to Guest Luke and am impressed with him as well as those who have responded. You do not know him, yet you have reached out with care. Perhaps a better word is "love" You have affirmed him in his need. From his writings, I see that Guest Luke is a "Heart" person. No superficiality here. Heart people often walk a difficult path, but it is a path that will eventually prove to be very rewarding. Luke, you will find "truth" as you have before. He who led you into and through the previous lies has not forsaken you. He is leading you even now. Look in your big heart, play your music, listen not so much to man, but to your own Spirit. You will discover the answer to the question. One more thing: Jesus said, "Strait is the gate and narrow the way that leads to Life." Note the word is "strait" not "straight". "Strait" means- filled with obstacles You are a seeker--then, likewise you will be a finder! Keep pressing on. It is worth every inch! khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:38 AM

Midchuck - Sorry! I apologize for tarring your whole profession with the same brush. I meant some lawyers, not all of them. Point taken. I was being kind of satirical...but point taken, anyway.

Ditto for the other examples in that post. Some of them, but not all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 08:58 AM

Okay. That being the case, I will apologize in turn for my rude suggestion.

It was unnecessary anyway. When you reach a certain age, the doctors will do it for you, either in the course of checking out your prostate or your intestine. And they'll charge you a lot of money for doing it! Talk about lawyers worshipping money...but now I'm overgeneralizing too!

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: bob schwarer
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:42 AM

Favorite caliber is the old 45-70 Springfield. Have several Trapdoors. Maybe they will be antiques and not stolen by the Gore Gestapo.

Had to have a special bullet mold made since the barrels were .462 or so; not the "Standard" .458. They all go into 2-3 inches at 100 meters with the right load.

Got a Ruger #1 and had it rebarreled with a BIG tube.That rifle was originally about 6.5 pounds and would kick the poop out of you. (Now don't someone say I needed it kicked). A lot more pleasant to shoot now.

Bob S.

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:31 AM

Oyy!!! Watch out fer them doctors carrying pointed implements!

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: CamiSu
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:04 PM

We have my husband's Great-grandmother's .22, among others. Once when she had a mountain lion in the chicken house, she went in with two bullets. She returned with a dead mountain lion and one bullet. We also have the shotgun his great-grandad (then sherriff of Boulder county, Colorado) took from Dolly Hackett after she shot her husband with it...

Subject: RE: BS: Yet another theological question!
From: The Beanster
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:00 AM

So where is Guest Luke through all of this? hmmm.