Guitar Characteristics

Subject: Guitar Characteristics
From: Parson
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:59 PM

Hi All, I would like to hear some opinions on the characteristics a guitar should have for playing Bluegrass music. In my way of thinking a "Folk Music" guitar should have a mellow, deep, resonant sound. But a Bluegrass guitar should have a brighter sound. I am interested in improving my skills as a flatpicker. That is the kind of music I enjoy hearing & would enjoy playing. If I should go shopping for a new instrument for this type of playing, what things should I look for in an instrument that would be suited to that kind of music?

Thanks,

Randall

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 08:20 PM

Well Randall, you'll notice that the overwhelming majority of bluegrass flatpickers are playing Martin dreadnaughts, so you should be looking for an axe with those characteristics. Get the best guitar you can afford, string it with at least medium guage strings--heavier if the instrument can take it, and practise practise practise. Yes, you want a bright sound, and you also want a loud guitar, if you're not going to use amplification.

Keep on pickin

DrWord

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 08:36 PM

Parson ...

Yes, a lot of bluegrass flatpickers have Martin dreadnoughts.

A lot of bluegrass flatpickers also have Santa Cruz, Gallagher, Collings, Bourgious (sp), Walkers, and there are a few more.

Wood is important, too. Rosewood has wonderful overtones and is a favorite wood for flatpickers. Mahogany has a more balanced tone and may be better if you are a singer, as well.

My advice would be to take a sufficient amount of time to play as many guitars, from as many makers, as you can, before you make a decision. In the end, you may find that a Martin is what you want, but you may also find that another make is what you want.

I will pass along the advice recently given to me by a friend:

"At least if you hate the sound, you won't ever have to wonder."

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: Mark Clark
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:31 PM

Randall, you've received some very good advice already. I agree with both GUEST,DrWord and moonchild. Be aware that there are two distinct tonalities prized in bluegrass guitars depending on their primary function. The traditional function of a bluegrass guitar is rhythm. Here you want a loud resonant guitar. A guitar with this quality never "gives up" as you play louder. The rich tone is always there and you can feel it as well has hear it. The pre WWII Dreadnoughts had that sound by the time they were recorded in the fifties and sixties. To get an affordable guitar with that kind of sound today try looking for an older D-41, although you'll have to play a lot of them to find one that has what I'm talking about. Still, you should be able to find one for less than $2500.

The other, more recent, function of a bluegrass guitar is as a lead instrument. Usually, a band that includes lead guitar will also carry a rhythm guitarist. The lead guitar will often be a stiffer, more treble sounding instrument. From the Martin line, a D-18 is often used for the purpose. Since it doesn't have to support the band, it is chosen for it's ability to cleanly and clearly produce lightning quick series of notes so too much sustain tends to get in the way.

As others have pointed out, there are makers other than Martin with acceptable models, I cite the Martin models only as a standard reference for the sound I'm trying to describe. Unfortunately, that "true bluegrass sound" can only be achieved using instruments that are top of the line and usually pretty pricey.

Good luck in your search.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: MK
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:45 PM

Either a straight-braced rosewood dreadnought or a scalloped braced mahogany instrument for "cutting power".

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:54 PM

Moon already gave you some great advice. She's really become well educated on this guitar sound business!(:<))

Everybody will tell you just about the same and the above posts are all to the point. In most cases a rosewood dreadnought gets you there. If you have a good strong personality and intend on playing amongst the serious Bluegrass folks, buy what you like. If you're not a real strong personality type.....buy a Martin.

But as Moon said, play 'em all so you never feel bad about your choice.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: bbelle
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:45 AM

Parson ... it was catspaw who gave me that piece of sage advice and after learning everything I could about guitars, wood, sound, how they're built, and anything else I could glean, I bought a Larrivee dreadnought. I had decided to get a Martin and made one last trip to play a guitar I hadn't played before, a Larrivee D-05. It now has a place of honor in my home, along side my Gibson B-25.

Now, if someone can just tell me why Larrivee doesn't put a strap button on the lower bout of their guitars! I called them on Friday, regarding that question. They were so nice and are sending me the button and instructions for putting it on. I, did, however, forget to ask them "why?"

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:31 AM

Those bastards! If it's because they're trying to save two bucks, I'll never forgive them! Surely they don't think every Larrivee player sits down!

Rick

Oh Randall, from what I've read here...pretty damned good advice.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:41 AM

RE: Larrivee end pins. Read the FAQ at their website at Larrivee Guitars which can also be found in the LINKS PAGE here at Mudcat under "Instrument Related" ...... Good place to get some other info too Randall...lots of manufacturers and stores listed there.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:25 AM

Get a Gallagher.

dw

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: bbelle
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:34 AM

NO, NO, NO, NO, dw!!!

We're encouraging Parson to try 'em all! Now, if he likes the Gallagher better than the rest, well ... At least, I mentioned Gallagher ... a recent poll showed that 9 1/2 out of 10 people have no clue what a "Gallagher" is. Most thought it was a goofy comedian who cuts up veggies for laughs.

(your Gallagher has a wonderful sound)

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:23 AM

One of the things you might want in a blue grass guitar is a wider neck. It seems to me that runnin' all aorund the fretboard, flat pickin' all those notes is made a bit easier when you have more room on the neck.

The sound I most often associate with bluegrass is that of the Martin Dreadnought. Santa Cruz makes a "Tony Rice" model that has that classic sound, with a bit more highs (somehow - a crisper sound). I love the sound, and it plays well - costs quite a bit, though. I've never seen bluegrass played with a jumbo, but think it would sound great. The Larrivee jumbo has a near perfect balance, a heavy bottom and it's highs are crisp, and loud? My friends call mine a cannon! It is loud.

Of course you probably can't go wrong with a good Martin, and there're a lot 'em to choose from. Best of luck!

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: bbelle
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:46 AM

Rick ... the actual cost is 59 cents US ... they're going to spend more than that to mail it to me.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: Parson
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM

Thanks to all who answered. However, I'm afraid that a Martin, particularly an older one, is way out of my budget. I don't think I will ever be playing on a stage or with a group other than just some guys getting together to play. So whatever I get will probably have to be a compromise between what the pros would play & what I can afford to pay. So, with that said, & having seen many references to the "Seagull" brand of guitars, but having never even seen one, except in pictures on the "net" could someone who knows about Seagull guitars give me a suggestion as to which of their models would most closely conform to the characteristics outlined in this thread?

Thanks,

Randall

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: bbelle
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:40 AM

There was quite a bit of discussion, a while back, on Seagull guitars. Go to the Quick Links > Forum Search > Seagull. This should bring up the information you are seeking.

Good luck. Yes, the ones mentioned above are not cheap, however, there are other lower priced guitars that are still very good. I don't know what your budget is, but check out elderly.com. They have very, very good prices and even some of the Martins are less than $500. Plus, they have a whole selection of guitar makes and prices.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:48 AM

There are several threads, including a recent one on Seagull. Also check their website (LINKS section of Mudcat) and as Moon has suggested try to check in at Elderly Instruments (also in LINKS).

Seagulls get excellent reviews in general around here, but you may be able to find many others within your budget, although that relates to what your budget is. Moon just got a wonderful Larrivee in the thousand dollar range. What kind of budget are you working on? At the moment, my budget for guitars wouldn't buy a broken pick.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:21 AM

Unless you are a good enough lead picker that you consistently work above the 8th or 9th fret, the quintessential ultimate perfect not-to-be-improved-upon guitar for bluegrass and related musics is the Martin "Vintage" line 12-fret slothead mahogany dreadnought, formerly titled D-18VMS, now D-18VS.

It is loud as the devil all the way across its range, while still having the "thump" in the bass that you need for BG rhythm.

It has the wide (1 3/4' at the nut) fingerboard that anyone except a child or a woman with tiny fingers will find most comfortable once they get used to it.

It looks "way cool," as I would say if I were trying to delude people into thinking that I'm much younger than I am.

There are three drawbacks:

It has limited access to the high frets.

It tends to drown out singers unless they have very loud voices.

It costs money (just over 3000 $US list, which means about 2K new if you shop carefully, or around 1.5K for a used one in really good shape).

I have spoken. This thread may, therefore, be closed at this time.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: Jed at Work
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:31 AM

Please forgive a bit of thread creep, but Peter is that the guitar Steven Stills used in the Woodstock era? I always loved the sound of the acoustic he used in those early CSN records.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:09 PM

Parson,

I once owned a '62 Martin that sounded really good, and was loud, but I was never really comfortable owning it because of its value and the fact people were always commenting on how good it looked and sounded and were less interested in what I was playing. And they always wanted to play it and borrow it.

I bought a "Blueridge" guitar about 10 years ago for my brother that I now play. It's nice and loud, has rosewood sides and back, and a finely-grained spruce top. It cost around $375 or so. Don't know if they still make them.

MichaelAnthony

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: bbelle
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:14 PM

I've seen Blue Ridge Guitars in pawn shops and guitar shops and online. Don't know if they still make them, but they're still available.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: GUEST,John Baman
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:17 PM

Randall,

DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM! Without a Martin, any bluegrass jam that does not physically remove you from their presence will snicker at you 'til it hurts. IT'S THE LAW!

John (a dejected and outcast Larrivee player)

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: GUEST,John Bauman
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:19 PM

wink, wink.

Subject: RE: Guitar Characteristics
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:21 PM

I really can't argue with any of the advice you have received, but at the risk of catching all sorts of flack, I would remind you that Yamaha did an excellent job of copying the Martins, and since you mentioned budget, they are a LOT cheaper, and good used ones are often available at reasonable prices.

Lyle