Help: 19th century sailing routes

Subject: 19th century sailing routes
From: Hollowfox
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM

I know this is WAY off the folkie track, but there aer enough of you who love history, and enough of you who live on or near the eastern coast of the USA, that I thought somebody might have some hints where to look. I have a friend interested in the shipping routes from New Orleans to the Richmond Virginia area (Norfolk, Newport News, etc will do just fine). She's doing research for a historical novel that takes place in 1827. She wants to know if the preferred route was coastwise, around Florida, or was it more common to sail to a Carribean port in more of a triangular route? Any website suggestions, or book titles? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Mary

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Wavestar
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 08:00 PM

Ask your local library, or better yet, your local university's library. I spent last summer looking through Dartmouth's collection of old maps, and they had a lot of navi charts and things. Really amazing.

-Jessica

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 08:24 PM

Mary: By 1827 coastal routes would be well established and the use of the Gulf Stream current around Florida woul d have been common practise. Sailing vessels leaving New Orleans would directly This would take advantage of the Southeasterly flow from the Mississippi delta. The course set woul be towards Habana Cuba to a position off the Dry Tortugas 24* 00' North latitude and 83* 00' West Longitude. There is little seasonal variation in the currents; the strongest in the Florida strait are observed about 25* North to 80* West for about 300 miles North. Most wrecks are from Southbound vessels at night on the Florida reefs with the strong Northerly set. This usually involved overestimating the speed made good against a 3 to 4 knot current and the fact that the charts and surveys in those days were not very accurate. Coral reefs and reduced visibility were the hazards faced by early navigators. Northbound ships to Norfolk from New Orleans rarely ran aground unless they crossed the Gulf Stream to the western edge, and were set in to the Keys. For details you can visit the excellent museums in Norfolk. Yours,Aye Dave.
Ocean Passages For The World Royal Navy Hydrographic Dept.
British Marine Observers Handbook (ninth ed.)
Reference books easy to obtain at the library include- The Gulf Stream by William H. MacLeish
and anything about Lieutenant Matthew F. Maury
USA USNavy Oceanographic Office Pilot Charts.

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 08:28 PM

I appologise for the hasty writing I'm tired and did not proof read. I hope it makes sense. PM me if I can be of any further assistance. Aye. Dave (tired ancient mariner)

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM

I just saw this and I have to say what a fine fine post Dave has put in here.....totally expected of course!!!

I would add too, for your friend's interest, if not perhaps use, that it was more common to sail to the island destinations and then back to the mainland when going south rather than north. Again the factors affecting this were the gulfstream current and the prevailing winds, not to be ignored in days when square rigs were still in some use.

Great post again Dave.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: paddymac
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 11:31 PM

What becomes the Gulf Stream comes up throught the Campeche straits, turns ENE thru the Florida straits, then heads north along the east coast of Florida as the Gulf Stream. Generally during the spring-summer months, there is an off-shoot known as the "Loop Current" which continues northward across the Gulf of Mexico toward the Mississipi Delta area, then loops around to the east and heads south again to rejoin the main current flowing ENE though the FL straits. The loop current exhibits great variability in its northward penetration and intensity. It was regular enough, however, that sailing ships knew of it and tried to "ride" the southward flow when outbound from New Orleans, and the northward flow when enroute to NO. As noted in Dave's post above, turning the corner around the end of the FL keys too tightly was perilous indeed.

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Amos
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 12:23 AM

Oh, mariners of great wisdom and insight, do any of you know enough physical oceanography to describe the limits of width and depth of the Gulf Stream, and its average rate of flow? I was trying to do a rough estimate in my head oof how much raw energy it must possess moving those many tons of water, however slowly, but I have no real numbers to even start with. Consider that a single liter of water, massing slightly more than a kilogram due to saline content, takes just over 1 newton of force to accelerate at a rate of one meter/sec per second. Applying this force across one meter's distance is the definition of the joule, the international unit of energy. (I.e., one newton-meter). A watt-hour is equal to 3600 joules, and a kilowatt-hour equal to a thousand times that or 3,600,000 joules. At 62 degrees F, a gallon of water contains 3.782 liters, so moving one gallon through the distance of a meter would entail perhaps 3.78 joules.

My physics may have gotten a bit rusty, but the important question here is how much energy does the Folksinger's Moon provide us with day in and day out in the Gulf Stream alone, just by wobbling along her ancient trail? Any bets?

So if they can feed the power needs of half of new York State from that picayune lil Niagara Falls, how come us'n's is having us another one of them damn energy crises? That's what I want to know.

Regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 02:01 AM

Just a thought...was New Orleans a large cotton shipping port? Serving the Mississippi drainage,I would guess that it was.If so,knowing that Britain was a huge market for American cotton,might there have been a route that would have allowed shipping of cotton to a port like Kingston Jamaica? A ship might have done quite well to take cotton to a British port,and haul rum and wool to Virginia.The constraints of wind and tide may have made this difficult for sailing craft,though.Were steamships in operation at the time?

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 07:33 AM

Amos. when I left school at sixteen (1969) Logarithms was a birth control method for trees; and Calculus grew on yer teeth if you did'nt brush em.. There are many books that describe the length, breadth, and depth of the Gulf stream. Nasa tracks and advertises its major axis (by infra red satellite imagery) so that poor mariners like me can avoid it southbound and use it northbound, for practical navigation purposes; we saved a half day on the return voyage by following the major axis.. Good luck mate I could'nt even start helping ye calculate that lot. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From:
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 10:58 AM

Dave, I agree. That task would be left to oceanographers, physicists, or math professors who want to torture students with calculus.

Amos, is that more fluff or are you asking seriously? I should suggest your local physics professor.

I would also ask your local oceanographers if the moon is what causes the Gulf Stream to flow. I don't know much about it, but your assertion seems incorrect somehow. I suspect other factors are at play for the Gulf Stream to exist.

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: paddymac
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM

Amos - I copied your post and sent it to a friend still in the oceanography business. I'll post whatever he replies with. As an interesting aside, there are times when the Gulf Stream is overridden by surface waters and is forced to flow as a submerged stream, its "top" sometimes being as much as 100-150m below the surface.

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Hollowfox
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 09:49 AM

Many thanks to you all, especially Dave, paddymac, and lonesome EJ. Wavestar, your answer was spot on, but my midwest libraries (public and university) came up dry (so to speak), and let's just say that there will never be a Tall Ships gathering on my little bitty local river. as a desperate librarian, I knew there was only one place to go (now, Catspaw, none of that!), and sure enough, I found it at Mudcat ('Spaw, stop that!)

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 10:24 AM

The Lloyd's Lists, bi-weekly shipping newspapers published by Lloyd's of London, I think, are a good source of information for the 19th Century. They were published from the 18th century onwards if I remember rightly. I'm not sure to what degree they deal with American shipping routes, but they do cover British and Irish journies across the Atlantic, and list storms, pirates, wrecks, ports, wars etc.

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 12:14 PM

Glad to be of some assistance. If your friend has any specific questions please email me; and I shall be happy to research the answers in my book collection.
Yours, Aye. Dave [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Amos
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 08:36 PM

Thanks fr the comments guys; behind all the jargon, the only math in that post (above) was multiplication and division. It's just them words what kill ya. Look forward to any other answers. Yhanks, Paddymac ... I guess we'd have to put the Niagara enerators in the middle, upside down! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 07:22 PM

Amos. To harness the Gulf Stream one would need portable generators; the major axis can change by up to 15 to 20 nautical miles. Such a device would have to be portable. I am sure scientists are working on using natural forces to generate power, but for the most part it is either not economical or possible with todays technology. We live in hope though eh mate? Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: 19th century sailing routes
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 07:34 PM

Paddy makes a great point about the depth and effects of the gulfstream. I crewed SORC races for 9 years and the changes always had to be factored in especially in light wind conditions. The difference in VMG was significant!

Spaw