BS: more weirdness--past lives

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 02:45 PM

Wolfgang,I am not a believer in reincarnation,but I certainly am open to the concept.I think the common experience of deja vu may have a scientific explanation,for example,or it could be a memory of the exact same situation having been experienced in a previous go-round.

As I have said before,those who are sceptical would see Heaven and question their vision acuity..those who believe, see God in everything.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: GUEST,Amazink the Alchemist
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 03:02 PM

Vell, you might vant to conshider dat a LOTTT more peeeple ovfer da schenturiez haff conshidered the "Wheel" (repeating aroundt unt aroundt in scheries der lifetimezh) azh prefferable for modelz of exishtance ovfer "Der Plank" (valk vunz oudt to der end and fall off!) model. Don't putt it to a vote!! Der schkeptcz vould ket OFER-whelmedt!

Amazink

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:14 PM

Amazink, thanks. One last word to the skeptics and then I hope to hear more past life posts: As Amazink intimated, not much on earth is linear. Science says that nothing is destroyed, that everything changes into something else, nothing is wasted.

Spring turns into summer, summer into fall, fall into winter, winter back into spring, ad infinitum...Seeds turn into plants, plants give seeds, seeds turn into plants...helpless infants turn into vigorous adults, adults ripen, ripe adults turn into helpless infants... Who is to say the cycle does not continue?

One sensation that I have occasionally had is of being buried. There is a heavy weight on my chest and I feel I have no recourse. I remember one time I drove past a mountain slope that had been stabilized with netting and boulders. I had an instant response as though I were buried in dirt, unable to breathe.

I used to think that perhaps I was afraid of being buried prematurely- who isn't- but if I were to explore into the dim past I might come up with a different explanation.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:28 PM

Hey, Lonesome EJ - you said:

"As I have said before,those who are sceptical would see Heaven and question their vision acuity..those who believe, see God in everything."

Lonesome, that is a magnificent statement! Bravo! I will happily shop at your Radio Shack any time.

(By the way, I got stuck with the "manager from hell" when I worked for Radio Shack, which jaundiced my view of the place. He was absolutely the worst manager I have ever seen on any job anywhere, although he was an incredible salesman...but an absolute @$$hole on a personal basis. Not only I, but every other employee he had quit over a period of about 3 months, until he was left in the store alone. Then the head office "kicked him upstairs", brought in a new manager and started over again from scratch. I have never seen a more spectacular example of the "Peter" Principle in action in my life. This guy was a walking, talking prick. He was amusing at times, though...in retrospect.)

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Peg
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:32 PM

thanks for the false memory info. I think this research comes in particularly useful in cases when people claim to have memories of, say, satanic ritual abuse and use these memories to accuse well-meaning pagans of sacrificing babies and such...

I do not think all past-life regression experiences are authentic, given the power of suggestion and the human mind's malleability and suggestibility...

but I also believe in past lives. I have known since I was five years old that I was present during the witch trials, if not here, then in England. And I don't think I was a witch. I think I was doing the blaming and the burning. Explains a lot.

blessed be,

Peg

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:38 PM

Leej, not sure if I've had a chance to say "thanks" for often putting into words what I've been thinking. Hmmmm, also helps me keep my "PPD" (posts per day) lower. (although not in this case.)

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 04:40 PM

Peg, it's a really scary thought to me of things I may have done in the past- I'm not sure I want to be aware of them all!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 05:15 PM

Well as a skeptic I am also interested in hearing what others have to say about their alleged past lives, so I hope to read more here. Being a skeptic doesn't interfere with that interest. I will also reserve the right of myself and others in a public forum to bring any and all questions about a topic into the discussion.

One thing that I found strange was that nobody challenged katlaughing's assertion that rape would be a common experience for women and that this statement should not be offensive to either men or women. Where does this impression come from? Rape has happened in the past and continues to happen in the present, but not all women are direct victims of it and neither are all men direct perpetrators of it.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 05:20 PM

I meant also to say that having watched The Matrix and the Thirteenth Storey this weekend I now feel qualified to suggest that we are all bits of a computer simulation. Lets hope no-one decides to pull the plug.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 07:11 PM

If you are going to attack me, again, sophocleese, at least get it right. I said,

"Just because of the way of the world and the history of women (no offense intended to you guys), I am sure rape is probably a fairly common experience from past lives, for those of us who believe in them."

I said nothing about "all women" being direct victims of it, nor "all men" being direct perpetrators of it.

You hope to read more about anyone's "alleged" past lives? Why on earth would anyone feel comfortable posting any more when there is sure to be an attack on their beliefs?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:31 PM

Rape, hell! How many times do you think decapitation has been exchanged amongst feisty little sojers with time on their hands? Running through the bowels with thick steel? Eyeballs burned out with pokers? Hands smashed with a marlinspike in the fist of some surly, rumsoaked mate? Deep lashes carved into your ribs and back by a psychotic overseer or boatswain, the cutting of steel and glass tips making you scream in your teeth? How about trials by fire, drowning, physical torture on racks, bamboo splinters, and screaming hand-tohand battles pike to pike until your very own skull goes rattling off among the horse's feet and the last sound you hear is a victor's battle cry from someone else? Make no mistake, we have a gory past and have played vewry fast and free with other people's lives and body parts over the centuries, overall; rape, while perhaps the most humiliating, is no where near the physical worst end of the spectrum.

Which makes it quite understandable why people sometimes prefer to remember nothing at all, or only royal experiences, or cutesy-pie overlays about a past life as a Leprechausn in Atlantis -- the hard facts would be nauseating if ever uncovered. Who wants to remember being a scullery slut, a dustman, or some knaves hapless bleeding victim left to rot on a high road in the back country on a cold autumn night for the sake of a pair of lousy half-crowns? No thanks -- I'll stick to the safe black wall of one lifetime only, thanks. At least I don't have to think about metaphysics that way!!!

Cheers,

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 09:17 PM

Now we are talking Amos
If I looked at my past lives, I think you just listed my entire biography.
I would much rather not look at it, thank you very much but then again if I did, it offers me the key to my freedom that I am looking for.

Little Neo

Subject: I remember remembering...
From: GUEST,"adam"
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 09:27 PM

I remember remembering a lot about my past lives. i remember knowing a lot, but i don't remember what I remembered. I do know I got the living hell beat out of me when I said I remembered. I was humiliated, ridiculed ,beaten and yelled at. By my parents when they found out I remembered from a past life. Of course I was yelled at when I couldn';t remember which was my left and right hand. Stupid imbecile, you don't have brain one, you don't use the brains God gave you, you weren't my child, I found you and I'm gonna give you back. You disgust me, you make me want to vomit. They picked on you at school? you probably deserved it you embarasing little worm.

sorry, I think anonymous is a good way to post this.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 01:43 AM

Guest Adam- You're the first person I have heard say what I have said for a long time. I too remember when I remembered more. I don't remember what it was but I remember almost consciously abandoning it because of ridicule from some older sisters. Ain't life grand??

Visualizing your early history makes one weep. I just can't imagine what makes some parents so non-cherishing. The only thing we can be sure of is that they had tremendous self-loathing. I can only wonder where that started.

Forgiveness, they say, is for one's own health, not for the one forgiven. May you live long and prosper!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:07 AM

To Ebbie and others:

'Does anyone have thoughts on past lives?' was the question at the start of this thread. Thoughts! What's wrong with doing a bit of thinking about stories for which one remotely possible interpretation is the recollection of previous lives, instead of staying in the belief mode of information processing.

Aren't you a bit intolerant towards other opinions?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 10:14 AM

I don't presume to know all the workings of the Universe -but I am open to just about any and all possibilities. I do not know about past lives but I certainly believe in the possibility.

A friend of mine has the Cutest Little Girl in The World, who is about three years old. We were at a living history thing at a local historic site, and I was on the porch playing my fiddle. This child said to me, "Have you seen my old brother? He plays the fiddle." I said, "Oh, your brother?" Meaning her older brother who was there with us.

"No," she said, "my OLD brother."

Her mother told me that she talks about her old mother, her old grandmother, etc., etc.

When I was a wee lassie I told people I was an Indian. My brother had several books about Indians and before I could read I looked at the pictures, thinking how familiar those people seemed.

I have always felt very old. In the past I have said about people who I thought were very immature or silly for their age, they haven't lived as many lives as I. Usually in jest, but only halfway.

When Mister and I got into Civil War reenacting I realized that when I had studied classical music, all my favorite composers were from the 19th century or before. I had no interest in 20th century composers at all. That could be just a matter of preference, but I thought it a little eerie, considering that I also love Victor Hugo and Charles Dickens.

I took to the violin like a duck to water. I am no expert - I have only been playing two years - but the first time I had the instrument in my hands it seemed terribly familiar, and the process of learning to play it has been more like re-learning something I already knew.

ONce I had a dream that I shot a red-coated soldier with a flintlock rifle at nearly point-blank range. That snippet is all I remember. I also once dreamed that I was being stabbed in the back, right in my kidneys. I could feel it. I have always been very careful with sharp objects. Then there was the time I dreamed I was in a concentration camp with my father, only it wasn't Me, and it wasn't My Father.

I don't know what it all means. Sometimes I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 01:37 PM

Wolfgang, I didn't mean it mean-spiritedly. However, I would suggest that you start your own thread titled something like 'Debunking All Views Counter to Mine' or something like that. Too often your views- although they are articulate and informed- are predictable and non-insightful, and are perilously close to calling all other views not only ignorant but stupid. (Ignorant I can handle, stupid ain't funny!)

I would be interested in a thread where you stated your views and others joined in. But I'll betcha it won't be half the fun.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 03:09 PM

When I was young and in a very bad situation, I invented a world where I was going to be the Queen of a certain country, when I grew up and had learned the languages and customs of my people. I invented a whole sytem of religion based on magic, and when I found out about Wicca years later, it was amazingly similar. I had even invented a table of corespondences that was very similar to the ones I have learned since.

To the East lies the Sea, to the South, the Land of the Faerie Queen, to the West, home of the Elvish race, to the North, the Barbarians.

My land is in five parts, rocky boreal forests, thousands of islands in the coastal region, red-rock prairie/desert, deciduous forests, and arable farmland.

This imagined world became very real for me, and kept me going through the hatred I was subjected to at home and at school. At first, it was just a place where everything was beautiful, and I had enough to eat, and beautiful clothing and jewelry, and everyone loved me. But later, it took on a life of it's own. I learned the history of that world, and the histories of mankind in that world. Originally I was only interested in my own country, but later I became aware that there were other countries across the sea.

Maybe it is real somewhere, somewhen. Maybe not.

All I know is that if I had not had that refuge, I would have given up.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 05:24 PM

With respect Ebbie, I disagree with your view. You may find Wolfgang's post predictable and unwelcome but, judging from the response that he got, others found them refreshing and helpful. It was Little Hawk who suggested that there is something not right with people who don't believe in past lives. I find the automatic response of telling some people to stop posting simply because you disagree with what they say distasteful, rude and deeply offensive. I am reading this thread and welcome the thoughts and stories of all who are interested.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM

I don't think there's something "not right" with those people, Soph, it just kind of surprises me momentarily when I encounter it, that's all...because it seems so natural to me to have awareness of "past" lives in other times and places.

There have been numerous civilizations where everyone considered reincarnation a given, and I guess I am strongly tuned in to that view of things.

Democracy is a situation where we all have the right to be harmlessly crazy in our own particular way...and have fun doing it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM

Sophocleese, I don't mean to be rude, deeply or otherwise offensive or distasteful. My point is that when a person's views on a thread contrary to their beliefs have been clearly stated, as the skeptics' have been, then iterating them again and again comes almost under the heading of flaming, IMO. Does anyone here really think that we have not read science's current views, that we are unfamiliar with all of the textbook arguments, that we are unaware that there are many people who believe only in the material?

If anyone reading this actually believes that, then their ignorance is showing.

I am merely suggesting that instead of wasting their clubbing on this dead horse (EWWWW, gross...), they should start a thread where others of like bent can lay it out for themselves. In this current thread, there is no way they are going to convince any of us, we, the experiencers-of-something-beyond that our experiences are the simple result of hallucination, suggestibility and old wive's tales. We should not have to repeatedly fight the same fight.

Just where is the harm in letting those who want to relate their beliefs and experiences without hindrance? And 'tain't polite, neither.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

hesperis,I am curious about your imaginary world.Perhaps you should write a novel,or at least some short stories that take place there.Can you tell us any more about it? Who else lives there?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:22 PM

But Ebbie your argument can be entirely and completely turned around from the other side. For example: why keeping beating on the dead horse of a belief in reincarnation when it has clearly been disproved by several people?

This thread began on Sept 30 and Wolfgang did not make his first, brief post until October 2. Maybe it was time for the thread to turn in another direction and people can discuss the possiblity that what they think of as past lives may be imprinted memories or some other phenomenon. You experience his comments as flaming and I see them as discussion. As I said in my previous post, his writing was not unwelcome to some people who are reading this thread. You can certainly say that you don't like what he writes but I still consider it rude to tell him and others who are sceptical not to write to a thread where everyone (not just those who believe) has been asked to post their thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:37 PM

Who has pronounced it dead?

But I do appreciate your tone.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Mbo
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:56 PM

I met you
Before the fall of Rome
And I begged you
To let me take you home

You were wrong
I was right
You said goodbye
I said goodnight

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

I knew you
Before the west was won
And I heard you say
The past was much more fun

You go your way
I'll go mine
But I'll see you next time

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

If I put my fingers here
And if I say "I love you, dear"
And if I play the same three chords
Will you just yawn and say

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

Alone and bored
On a thirtieth-century night.
Will I see you
On The Price Is Right?
Will I cry?
Will I smile?
As you run
Down the aisle.

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before

Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done
Woo hoo hoo
It's all been done before...

--BNL

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:16 PM

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that there may be a scientific explanation for their experiences of something beyond?
I would think that they would welcome a clear and concise explanation of what must, at times, be a troubling and frightful experience. If past lives COULD be proven scientifically, the benefits could be tremendous. We could learn to reliably tap into the knowledge those lives contained and the answers to many age-old questions would be revealed.
But I fear this will never be since most reincarnation believers seem to prefer NOT to know why as witness some of the reactions to Wolfgangs post. *sigh*

troll

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM

The belief in reincarnation has been conclusively disproven? WOW!!! Dang!!! How?

I will place a hundred dollars in the mail to the author of so conclusive a proof, if it is so well written that there are no flawed assumptions or logical fallacies or violation of data integrity in it.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ely
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 11:03 PM

Where was it clearly disproved? By the repressed memories people? By the people who acknowledge that the brain stores a lot of stuff on the sly that comes back to us later? There are lots of explanations but I don't think they completely exclude the possibility of past lives.

I don't even know if I believe in past lives myself. I started this thread because I cannot explain those things about myself and wanted to see what others thought, both pro and con. I am the daughter of two scientists and have a pretty decent scientific background myself. The paranormal is my last explanation for odd occurrances (nothing against the paranormal, I just don't work that way). But science admittedly doesn't know everything, either. If there are scientists who can reconcile it with God and nobody seems to be questioning the validity of their scientific work, why can't there be scientific people who aren't completely skeptical about reincarnation (or ghosts, or whatever)?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: BigDaddy
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM

Skeptics, would you crash a party of born-again Chtistians and buttonhole each guest to argue your case against God, the Bible, etc.? Or attend a Hindu vegetarian feast to tout the joys of meat-eating? Seems kind of like responding to a bodhran, banjo or accordion thread simply to post reasons why you don't like those instruments. I'm with Ebbie. Perhaps we should take a poll (via a thread of its own) on how we all feel about this. Unlike certain religious groups, those who are aware of their own past life connections do not, as a rule, attempt to proselytize or convert anyone to their beliefs. They just find it enjoyable and refreshing to be able to share their experiences with like-minded people. Within the past one hundred years, the wonderful world of science has "proven" that gorillas do not exist, that "hysterical" women are better off without their ovaries, and that "caucasian" brains are superior to "negroid" brains. 'Nuff said?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 06:37 AM

The Harplist has recently had a spate of stories about people appoaching harpists and telling them about their past lives, etc. Most of the stories do tend to relate to Renaissance faires.

I tried to do a past life regression several years ago, and when while I was in trance, the hypnotist asked if it was ok to go past my birth, I said no. I often wonder if my past lives aren't particulary useful to me in this life on a concious level.

Mimosa

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 06:57 AM

Good point there BigDaddyO
I have not shared much about what I sense from my previous lives. I think about those lives but I would only discuss something like that where I feel completely comfortable. This thread is not one of those places.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM

The original posting said, and I quote,"Does anyone have thoughts on past lives." To me, this means a discussion of experience and belief, NOT a one-sided love-fest of the "I was a Celtic Princess" variety. If your belief in reincarnation can't stand a little questioning and skepticism, go start a thread of your own.This thread called for discussion.'Nuff said.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM

How about this, a thread titled 'Wanted, Past Life Experiences', would that have made a difference?
Maybe I should start a thread 'Wanted, Near Death Experiences', thats a pretty good topic too.
But at the same time I would start another thread 'What Are Your Thoughts on Near Death Experiences?'
Would that then make everybody happy?
I don't think you can ever make everybody happy.
I learned that lesson in my past life when I was Queen Sheba.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 08:09 AM

You were the Queen of Sheba? I've got a cousin who claims to have been a teapot but he's a little strange.*BG*

troll

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 09:58 AM

Thank you, Big Daddy. It's what I've been thinking but been unable to articulate. It feels as uncomfortable as LilNeo indicated.

Anyone seen my tiara?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:12 AM

Well, if we're taking science, let's talk science (for a momen or two). A fair discussion of the pros and cons would require that everyone concerned read Dr.Ian Stephenson's masterly treatise, [I'll try to get the title right], "An Investigation of Some Claimed Memories of Former Incarnations." That's for starters.

But the book is almost two inches thick and very very expensive, so we're not going to do that, are we? And, it doesn't prove anything! -- It just proves that of about 21 Indian (in India) children who claimed to remember a past life, about 12 or 15, (I don't remember the number and it isn't really important), remembered being a specific, verifiable individual who was separated from them by distance, language, customs, etc, and they could relate very specific details of that person's life history. And when Dr. Stephenson checked it out, he found that there had been such a person and many of the details checked.

This doesn't prove anything! -- But it is an example of investigating rather than spouting off.... False memories during hypnosis don't prove that all "other-life" memories are false, either. But it's worth knowing about, and as long as you remember that it's a valid consideration, it doesn't have to feel like an attack on one's beliefs.... It can only be threatening if you let it.

To my knowledge, Dr. Stephenson did not make a case for reincarnation as an interpretation of his findings. He just investigated the cases, very, very thoroughly.

Now, I don't think Dr. Stephenson "proved" anything. I'm just saying that there are layers and layers of evidence, interesting personal experiences, arguments, religious beliefs, scientific investigations, "I want to believe"'s and "I don't want to believe"'s out there and that an argument over "does it happen" or "Doesn't it happen" is pretty well doomed not to take them all into account.

So, those of us who find it interesting and worth thinking about, may have run across some of the more convincing stuff, including personal subjective experience; or may just have a temperament that finds it interesting.

I too have had experiences that I don't want to share here. They didn't prove anything, even to me. But they opened a glimpse of a cosmos that may be more subtle, complex and rewarding than it seems on the face of it in today's world.

I would like that, if it turns out to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM

Sorry. I lost it there for a few minutes. You see, I found this old soapbox in the basement and I couldn't resist just climbing up on it and...

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:10 AM

I wish I did remember something, because I think it would be fascinating to have that personal memory of another time and place. But maybe I don't need to remember or want to remember, etc...

LEJ - Thanks for your interest in my world. I have several times tried to write about it, but writing to me is something equivalent to sweating blood, and I just can't keep the momentum up at this time in my life. I have, however, written(/translated) a few songs from the history of that world. I need to edit and write them down and arange them and record them.

I have three good ballads in various states of completion. And more on the way.

There were a few interesting instruments, too. One was similar to the viol family, made out of a sort of eelskin, wood, horn and eelgut, and it actually incorporated water into the resonator chamber in some way. It was invented by the Mòrlain race, who are amphibious. The giant eels were their prey and their enemies. I should learn something about making instruments, and see if I can create some of them.

~*sirepseh*~

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wavestar
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM

I'm just curious, but riddle me this. Modern science and its proponents admit frequently, and take great delight in saying, "There is so much we haven't seen yet! So much we have yet to explore!" And yet, these same proponents see NOTHING contradictory in saying, "This has been conclusively disproven, because as far as we can see, there's no evidence for it, and it can't be explained, so that's evidence against it!" I've heard it, over and over. How hard is it to think, JUST MAYBE, that these things you can't explain, these things you don't understand, may fall into the category of things science hasn't figured out just yet?

So much of what was once considered clearly myth by the most scientific and rational of minds has now been re-examined, understood, and accepted. Why must we all persist in this pig-headed approach that says, "It's NOT true!" when for all you know, it could be, and if the all-god 'science' explains it tomorrow, you'll turn around and say it is? Please, everyone can learn to accept that no one knows everything. And just remember, there's always more out there for us to find...

-Jessica

PS. That said, I won't say I believe in past lives - but I won't say I don't, and I won't say it hasn't occured to me.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM

Umm, I must hasten to say that in my post where I said "why keeping beating on the dead horse of a belief in reincarnation when it has clearly been disproved by several people?" I said "for example" in front of it. My point, however clumsily expressed, was that Ebbie's arguments in favour of silencing sceptics in this thread were heavily biased, and it would be equally offensive of the sceptics to say the same things about the non-sceptics. However I also screwed up with the phrase "keeping beating", sorry, I'll try to proofread next time.

One of the pitfalls in a discussion like this is that of falling into sides, believer vs non-believer, if you're not for me you're against me. There may be some people who think in terms like that but I think many of us in this thread are a little less absolute and are curious. The more information I read, results of experiments and personal experiences, the more I start to question what I had thought before.

For those who feel that the prescence of a sceptic or two on an open thread asking for thoughts on past lives is hurtful to them, think for a minute about the hurt you inflict when you tell intelligent, questioning people to shut up because you don't agree with them. Contrary to popular belief sceptics and scientists are people too and have feelings and sensitivities that can be wounded as easily as those of devout believers.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wavestar
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:52 PM

Sophocleese, I just wanted to assure you that I didn't honestly think you were saying that, your phrasing made it clear that this was a "whatif". My question was rhetorical, and I realise that my language might have been insulting. I'm sorry if it was. I do mean what I said, but as you say, the invitation was for discussion. Unfortunately, I think Ebbie's side feels that often 'discussion' from sceptics involves believers being referred to as stupid, gullible, etc, which is often true and always regrettable.

-J

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:03 PM

I once went out for lunch with a good friend of mine. At the time we were both working as clinical dietitians in the same hospital. I told my friend Veronica about this tingling I get at the tip of my nose when someone is thinking about me. She say "Bonnie, go get a blood test! I think you may have a B12 deficiency".
I said, "Thanks Veronica, never thought of that"
I knew I did not have a B12 deficiency. I didn't feel hurt by her not believing in what was going on with me either. I just knew Veronica and I have a very different way of looking at things.
Thats okay

LN

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Bearheart
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:45 PM

Hi Guys, Been busy tese last two weeks teaching a healing intensive, but missing mudcat friends I managed to get a few moments and this thread was first up. Seemed significant...

I have done several past life regressions over the years, and had some interesting experiences with them, but the most notable was this one:

My husband (an anthropologist and scientist by training) and I met in the spring of 1980. He had been exploring shamanism and other alternative ways of looking at the world, and a mutual friend introduced us. It happened that she did past life regression work, sound healing and some other stuff. We felt an immediate attraction and connection, and about 2 months after we met she offered to lend us a tape she had put together for couples to do hypnotic regression to a common past life. It worked just like the regular kind-- a hypnotic suggestion to guide the process-- but we linked hands while doing it. In this style of regression you do it all while in deep hypnotic trance so the individual(s) are not dialoging at all with the guide. In fact she wasn't even present. We were both in the hypnotic state simultaneously, for about 30 minutes, having our private experiences. The suggestion was to remember a lifetime we had had together.

When we came up out of the hypnotic state we began to share our experiences. We found that our experiences under hypnosis were identical. We were literally finishing each other's sentences. I won't go into all the details, as it is rather private, but we both "remembered' a life time in classical Greece. The life circumstances we recalled individually, including our genders, occupations, social status etc, all agreed.

While my husband is quite open-minded, he was also really sceptical about reincarnation. He mostly went through this to please me (we were courting at the time, remember!) but was rather shaken by the experience. I just figure it's another of those mysteries of nature we don't yet have answers/explanations for yet.

Knowledge is an evolutionary process, and we are after all only human. There are limits to what we can measure and quantify. Of course it interesting that tribal people have had access to knowledge though their spiritual practices, some of which is now being verified by science. Our culture often discounts ancient knowledge as superstition; it only respects the new, the scientific. It's rather the same thing as disrespecting old people, or aboriginal cultures, as if they have nothing to offer us. As if somehow they are the way they are out of ignorance or unwillingness to learn. Perhaps they know something we don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: GUEST,Methuselah Discarnate
Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:20 PM

The issue of reincarnation is really just the symptomatic surface of a deeper issue.

A great deal of agreement and momentum has accrued in Western thought built on a fundamental belief that the existence of a human being is defined by the scale and scope of the human body. With this point of departure, psychology becames a branch of neurology, and the Skinners and Cricks of the world can rest easy knowing only the physically measurable need apply for reflection and analysis.

If a single case of a remembering self is found which stands up against analysis as demonstrating a transition from onle lifetie to the next, as in the cases cited in Stephensen above, then a serious creaking and shifting starts up in consequence. IF a remembering self transitions across the lifetime boundary intact, then it is clear the seat of that recollection is not the body; and possibly, not even a physical time-frame element at all (I suppose you could argue for a soliton of high-frequency RF but it is not consisten with the consciousness involved). This possibility means that a person who is identified with a near-term genetic structure (I am the son of Bill and Emma Codwallop) or the current body itself (I AM a brunette with long feet) is going to have some shaking down to do in coming to terms with what they might really be if these safe assumptions are not true.

If the nature of our kind is NOT defined by the body....then what is it?

This question is so much work, and so unsettling to some people that it is understandable they would "rather err with Galen than be right with Harvey" as one scholar in London put it about a similar paradigm problem in the 17th century.

M.D.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:22 AM

Wow -- another bloody pedant!!! Dang!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:34 AM

Ely, thanks for stating clearly that you wanted to see what others thought, both pro and con in this thread. That's how at least I had read you. Why is it always the credulists who say that they don't want to hear any more arguments from the other side? I haven't yet read such an argumentation from sceptics in these threads.

BigDaddy, I assume for a moment that your first two questions were meant serious and you are waiting for a response. My response to both questions is, no, I wouldn't. For the very same reasons for which I do not write anything in the healing threads nor do comment upon statements of (mostly Christian) faith by Mudcatters. I have a high respect for these and other faiths and I'd never even discuss them unless explicitly invited. If anybody says "I believe in God" ,or "I believe, for Jesus has saved my life", or "I believe in God, for he has created the world and holds us all in his arms", I'd listen with respect and silence. If, however, I'd hear "I believe in God, for I have witnessed the wonders in Lourdes" or "I believe in God, since studies have shown that those who are prayed for even if they don't know about the prayers are healed faster", I'd feel free to comment upon weaknesses of these studies or upon alternative explanation for medical wonders. What's the difference? I do not attack the faith here, I attack one argument or one reason given for a faith. And since all faiths (similar to political convictions) are based upon a whole bundle of arguments and feelings, even the total destroying of a single argument would (and should, I add) never weaken a basic faith. Even if I happen to have the same conviction as another person I still can attack a particular argument she offers for that conviction. I consider it sloppy thinking not to see this difference. Imagine for a moment I could convince you that all past life memories are inventions (and Ferrara has pointed out correctly that the proof that there are false memories generated under hypnosis is not a proof that all memories generated this way are imaginations), would that mean you have to stop believing in reincarnation? Not at all. We all could as well be reincarnations of previous lives but without memories of them. My aim is just that alternative interpretations for experiences get a hearing as well, that's how I understand open-mindedness.

If I had tried to attack reincarnation more directly and not just arguments for it I would have made it this way: (warning; believers in reincarnation might find the next paragraph offending and may want to skip it) The death age distribution in remembered past lives is all wrong. We know fairly well at which ages the people died in past centuries. E.g., up to one third of them before the second birthday. The death age distributions in remembered past lives do not match the real distributions. The distributions of professions is all wrong (not enough peasants and farmers; but too many maids; too many persons close to known persons); it doesn't match the actual distribution of professions in the respective times, but it is a fairly close match to the distribution of professions in today's fictional literature about past ages. Too many people today were in former lives the queen of Sheba or some other known person (but perhaps souls can split in later lives). There are fairly good guesses as to the total number of humans that have lived altogether on earth and that live today. In combination with the average amount of previous reincarnations reported or postulated per person living today, the mathematical fit of the relevant numbers is close to impossible (unless, of course, you allow for soul splitting again; or, that only those believing in reincarnation are reincarnations). end of offending paragraph

Ebbie, what you write about my motives for my posts when you say I would suggest that you start your own thread titled something like 'Debunking All Views Counter to Mine' is offending and mean.

Ferrara, I guess you mean Ian Stevenson (not: Stephensen; sorry for correcting the spelling, but he'll be easier to find this way). He definitely should not passed over when it comes to xenoglossy or reincarnation. I can't locate the title you have given, but in his book 'Children who remember previous lives' the same few cases are reported. Who wants to read a much shorter version could look into the Proceedings of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1974, 31, for his review of xenoglossy. But who wants to have a more complete picture might also want to read why critics have been far from convinced by Stevenson's data: S.G. Thomason, in: American Speech, 1984, 59, 340-359 Wilson, Mind out of time, Doubleday, 1981

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:51 AM

This is really 2 distinct threads in one:

1. Stories about memories (or memory-like mental movements, to allow for the skeptical possibility) attributed to past lives

2. Arguing about whether skepticism should be expressed, and how, and whether various posts in this thread are or are not appropriate, etc.

I like the first thread far better. It's interesting an da little eerie. I had more than enough aimless arguing with my first wife.

But what do I know? I drink White Zinfandel.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:57 PM

Wolfgang thank you very much for that posting. It was informative and it also does help me better understand where you are coming from.

Alex I never realized Zinfandel came in white. It is amazing the things I am learning in this lifetime.

I know guys, how about those of us who want to debate this topic go to the Hearme Song Circle room and those who want to tell their past life experiences go to the Hearme Concert room.
We could schedule a date and time and then have all this conversing going on at once. Transending from room to room if we choose.

The Real Queen of Sheba

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM

Actually it's a blush/rosé. Some labels make a very bland version (Sutter Home, Beringer). Others do a better job. (Turning Leaf is my fave.) Real wine snobs say disparaging things like it's not really wine at all.

But I don't drink wine to be liked, I drink wine I like.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM

To Wolfgang, Sophocleese and everyone else I offended: I apologize. I truly did not wish to offend and obviously I did. I got a tad carried away. I appreciate that your tone(s) have stayed courteous throughout.

I was trying to make a point. It may be that my desire for a relaxed interchange of views and experiences was at fault- perhaps that kind of thing is not possible in a public forum. But ah, it was fun while it lasted. And I wish it were possible.

Ebbie