BS: more weirdness--past lives

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:09 PM

I think that reincarnation is simply one of those things that is beyond our current scope of understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Peg
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:13 PM

I have had this thought more than once, and it seems to be at least tangentially related to the theory expressed above about death ratios and how so many past life experiences are not mathematically possible, etc, so allow me to express it here...

I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread that I believe one of my past lives saw some involvement in the medieval or perhaps Colonial witch trials. Since my initial assumption after having these impressions was that, of course! I must have been a witch, a martyr, a misunderstood village healer murdered by my vigilante neighbors!, it did not occur to me until years later, having met a lot more modern witches who also profess to have been persecuted witches in past lives, that I may be, ahem, wrong...

My persistent and often vivid memories and impressions (if indeed they are of past lives and not merely my own quite facile imagination) may not have been those of the victims; they may have been induced by guilt and vicarious horror experienced by those who did the actual accusing, torturing, hanging, burning, raping, etc.

This would make greater karmic sense, too, at least in my case since I am an activist with a group that helps people of alternative religious beliefs fight discrimination...it is said that we are given the lessons we most need to learn in this life to move forward. For example, a ruthless warrior of many lifetimes will enter an incarnation where he/she will repeatedly encounter anger and aggression and must learn to channel it appropriately.

Since most cultures do not currently parctice the old-fashioned, ritualized manner of human sacrfice, it can be argued that we still do practice huamn sacrifice on our streets and in our homes, that it is simply devoid of ritual significance or purpose...that in our mindless violence we are not appeasing the gods, but something in ourselves, we know not what...

(There is an interesting theory that many contemporary victims of childhood sexual abuse are in fact on this "warrrior path" and their healing is directly tied to their ability to overcome directionless anger...)

Stay with me, now...

So, after reading this thread the last few days, I have had the following thought as well:

That the reason there are so many people claiming to have been Cleopatra or Shakespeare or Catherine the Great or Crispus Attucks or the Marquis de Sade or King Arthur (I met one such in the UK and he is a true nutter and a lot of fun), is that, in the past as today, cults of celebrity are built up around heroic or charismatic personages.

Just think of all the songs and poems dedicated to Bonny Prince Charlie, such that he is a mythic figure not just in Scotland but also in Ireland...

Just as your average person in America knows way more than they should about Madonna's sex life (okay, we can blame her for that) or Robert Downey Jr's drug problem, so, too, people in earlier eras must have identified with their heroes and heroines. Except that, minus TV and the Internet and CDs and tabloids, this form of worship did in fact take the form of a more personalized, cult-like devotion: songs, poems, ballads, legends, myths...such that, even as we sing before the mirror into our hairbrush and dance about in our underwear pretending, perhaps, to be Madonna for a few minutes...our ancestors had similar fantasies and vicarious thoughts about their celebrities...

So, when in fact we think we are a reincarnation of Tutenkamen or Isodora Duncan or Nijinsky or Confucius or Aristotle, what we may not realize is, we are a reincarnation of one of their groupies or sycophants...

thoughts???

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:19 PM

I'm also one of those folks who seem older than I actually am.....there is a dream I have every once in a while and it remains unchanged....in it I am wearing grey and end up dying...I firmly believe in reincarnation and that we live through out the ages learning through each life, until we can learn no more....

Amergin

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM

Peg are you kind of saying, lets say I was in charge of burning witches in a previous lifetime, I might come back as a nurse in a burn unit.
Or I once was a peasant whose job it was to force feed geese to make them fat for that disgusting goose pate they use to eat, I might come back as a vegetarian.
Or maybe I was a black slave owner who would not allow my slaves to sing and play their instruments so now I have come back as a banjo player.

Is that kind of what you mean?

The Real Queen of Sheba

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Peg
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM

Lil neo wrote:

Peg are you kind of saying, lets say I was in charge of burning witches in a previous lifetime, I might come back as a nurse in a burn unit. --or as a witch threatened with burning...

Or I once was a peasant whose job it was to force feed geese to make them fat for that disgusting goose pate they use to eat, I might come back as a vegetarian. --or as a chicken in a battery cage on a factory farm...

Or maybe I was a black slave owner who would not allow my slaves to sing and play their instruments so now I have come back as a banjo player. --um...no. I think my point was that we may reincarnate in a position where we learn the error of our previous lives by having to experience hardships and challenges designed to illuminate past mistakes...

Your interpretation of this is neat, though; that we would come back, as it were, as someone inclined to redress these wrongs...I'll bet that happens, too (as often as any of this does) but karma strikes me as a thing that prefers to deliver difficult lessons over easy ones...

peg

Is that kind of what you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Fortunato
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 03:55 PM

Methusalah discarnate. You do describe a fundamental issue at the crossroads of the sacred and the profane. Yet as a species we embrace the concept of a discorporate nature for our being at every opportunity. The spiritual foundation of our cultures, primitive or otherwise, rests squarely upon a belief that we are more than flesh and bone. Lines are drawn by differences in these beliefs. For example, Judeo-Christians are happy with the concept of being reborn in heaven, to spend eternity as a spirit in heaven, but find ridiculous being reborn here.

There's no beer in heaven, my children. chance

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: flattop
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 04:11 PM

Can one be sceptical about sceptics having feelings and sensitivities? Is that ok on a weirdness thread?

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 04:22 PM

I think it is ok, flattop, for I don't think it has ever been proven that sceptics have feelings....

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: sophocleese
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM

Well I believe that they do, so please try not to tell me they don't. :)

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

I think if you will look at last year's volume of The Journal of Emotional Investigations (I think number 2 or 3; don't have them here with me as I'm at work), you'll see that there have been many studies done on the question of skeptics' emotions, some of which appear to show that they DO have emotions, and some of which appear to show the opposite. The writer of the review study, I think a Dr. Pfeffernuesse, said something along the lines of "I rather doubt that they do, they probably don't, and it really bums me out." The editors of the journal point out that Dr. P. (a world-famous skeptic and poo-poo-er of UFO's) takes antidepressants, and considers Bob Dylan to be "real folk music."

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Ferrara
Date: 06 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM

I love the Mudcat. The things you learn -- I never knew before that there's a good brand of white zinfandel! -- I thought Sutter Home was pretty good for the first year or two and then they started making it with ditch water....

Yeah, Wolfgang, it's Ian Stevenson. (My rotten memory strikes again.) As far as criticisms and rebuttals of his investigations, I decided years ago that the book was too expensive and reading it was too much like work, and sorting through critiques and rebuttals would be very, very much too much work; and none of it could prove the unproveable anyway. So I decided to let somebody else figure out whether reincarnation is a "fact." It doesn't make any operational difference in my life either way.

Good post, by the way.

The thing I do believe in, because it's trustworthy, is my "radar." This is a set of feeling-tones that occasionally lead me to take an action that common sense says is a mistake, because an inner feeling says it's a great thing to do and will turn out well; or, vice versa, not to do something that looks fine on the surface.

When I say I believe in this radar, I mean it usually guides me well. It's worth paying attention to.

Again, sometime in the 70's I decided I didn't care whether I was experiencing some kind of psychic whatsis, or just doing what I wanted to do but couldn't justify otherwise. If I follow those feelings (they have a certain tone, not all feelings seem to be "radar"), it usually turns out well. So I don't care if they're my unconscious mind's summing up of the situation, or a psychic insight, or a little green angel whispering in my ear. It just works better to listen than not. Usually.

.... To be honest, deep down I suspect strongly that they're some form of psychic insight.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: BigDaddy
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:53 AM

Wolfgang, probably the only thing we're going to agree upon is that we disagree. I understand what you are saying, but am put off by your need/desire to "attack" (your word) a belief that harms no one, provides comfort and reassurance to many, and is shared by a large number of people the world over. I share similar misgivings over a number of religions/spiritual beliefs, but don't feel it's my job to correct them (or "attack" them). What we're discussing here is not an organized religion but rather a spiritual belief. I don't expect my spirituality to confirm or negate true science; nor do I look to science for confirmation (or negation) of my spirituality. I have the same (emotional) response when I encounter someone using science to "attack" a spiritual matter as I do if I hear someone using a religious belief to question science. There is an "apples and oranges" thing going on here. I feel as if I ventured out of doors on a clear northern night with friends to watch the northern lights and view the milky way and constellations; when along comes a group of people who want to explain to us the scientific workings of each of these phenomenons. My friends and I just wanted to watch in wonder and "ooh and ahh." I should add that here in the actual world I have friends at both ends of the spectrum, and scattered along in between. With some friends I greatly enjoy discussions of spirituality as well as many other things. With others I discuss just about everything but spiritual matters because we know we don't have a common ground there. It doesn't prevent us from sharing love and respect.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Lena
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:37 AM

I've no reason why I shouldn't believe in past lives.It's difficult,too difficult to grow up in old Florence and not to.I had for a while a funny 'relationship'with the medieval lady I owe my name to(Annalena di Malatesta).My mother,in turning catholic,had to deny any possible belief in past lives,or ghosts.The Vatican firmly commands so.So,when she suddenly stopped going to pray in her favourite convent,I was amazed and asked her why.I found out that that convent was an 'old'infested house and it was arranged as a convent because someone thought that nuns were the right people to get rid of the matter.Problem was,every time at a certain hour my mother,kneeled down in payer,would see always the same 'ghost'doing always the same thing for a couple of seconds,and then go.For the way we are in the family,we would have found it perfectly normal.But it clashed with her being a catholic,and not seeing the thing anymore was her only right way for her to overcome the 'sin' of seeing them.It's also normal for many cultures that the soul of a dying relative goes to visit all his family one by one before parting.It happened to friends,it happened to me.When my granfather(very young and healthy)died,I felt it.I was ten.Two days after it,mum approached me to finally tell me.I anticipated her,saying quietly"I know,Grandfather is dead".And for the first days I didn't cry or stuff,because that quiet awareness stayed with me. I have a dear,dear friend I grew up with.Two years ago she had pneumonia,and started dreaming her daughter.She told me peacefully the thing,and I couldn't get it.She doesn't have a daughter,of course.She replied that she'll have her one day.She described her features,her name and the fact that she would come in the early morning,sit at the end of the bed and stare at her for a while,and then go.Knowing the person,you'd believe her...

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM

Wolfgang is not attacking the belief, he's attacking the way we are expressing that belief here, if it's sloppy logic. He sounds quite reasonable to me.

I do believe in past lives..... just so you know.

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:33 PM

It's time to relaunch this thread. Go to Past Lives/Weirdness, Part II

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM

To the believers

An alternate explaination of why there can be 10 people who are reincarnations of the Queen of Sheba (or other famous figures) running around at the same time presents itself: Multiple Personality Disorder (The original historical figures, I mean)

As to whether skeptics have emotions, don't be silly. With all the great advances in psychopharmacology we've dispensed with usless things like emotions. Ego is next. And just wait till you see what we have planned once the human genome mapping project is done.

To Wolfgang and other interested parties,

If you haven't already been to it, the Committe for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (www.csicop.org)is a great resource. The January 1999 issue of their publication had a grat review of Paul Edwards book "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" that is an excellent overview of the subject, ranging from the spiritual basis to review of scientific (and pseudoscientific) inquiries on the subject.

The following is me on my Soapbox: I believe in things that cannot be proved and probably are not provable in any scientific or even rational sense. Scientifically, ESP has yet to be proven (although the Ganz field experipenst in the mid 90's showed some promise). Believing in ESP, however, is a lot more fun than not believing. But come the day I need paramedics, I'll rely on ATT and 911, thank you) I was really pissed off when I learned that it looks like Rhine faked his results.

Belief in reincarnation is undoubtly comforting. It helps people cope with and explain their world. It can also (as several studies of Hindu society have argued(sorry,no citation it was in college a long, long time ago)) serves to maintain the status quo and makes people happy with their lot in life and keeps social unrest at a minimum. Its the "You will eat, by and by, in that glorious land in the sky..." effect.

Using anecdotal evidence to validate a belief like reincarnation can be fairly innocuous. It can be comforting. But the same argument can be made for a lot of beliefs and "isms" that aren't all that harmless. If we argue that belief systems and the scientific method result in equal validation of ideas, I get concerned for where that type of system of thinking can lead. Has lead, come to that.

BTW In my past I was a believer. I have done past life regressions and free association and all the other recovery techniques. Lots of fun.

(I apologize in advance for the following)I once believed I was, among other things, a hunter/trapper in pre-roman England. That was during my mis-spentyouth in the 60's. Although come to think of it, I remeber the hunter/trapper part a lot more clearly than most of the '60s

John

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:41 PM

Re The last post from "guest:.Twas I. Out surfing on a new computer and didn't remember to log in.

John

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

There is a fairly simple mechanism in the way the human mind deals with certain extremes of experience in which one's own persona seems untenable, because it has failed, or is being badly overwhelmed by someone else, and that is to take on a more successful peronality. This is emotionally kind of unhealthy in the long run but it provides a way out in the short term. And very often what happens is one takes up a winning personality of which one has some impressions from recent experience -- such as a violent father, or, just as easily, a dominant leader.

This leads to all kinds of personal problems, so it is not a recommended solution to stress, but it is a pretty basic impulse when things get unbearable. And I propose that it is not uncommon for someone delving in to the subject of past identities to not want to get too close to those that were highly painful (the peons, foot-soldiers, starving children and battered women, whipped slaves and disemboweled bystanders). It would seem natural to come up with a more tolerable overlay.

But this tendency no more invalidates the premise of past lives than the complexities of of molecular motion invalidates the theories of thermal energy transfer. You just gotta take the variables into account.

There are some people -- usually the young and creative of any age -- to whom the alternative proposition -- that they are solely composed of molecules and electronic surges, with no true qualitative difference to account for their awareness, intuition, ability to understand and sense of viewpoint, none of which seems explainable by molecular theory -- is the most ridiculous and superstitious proposition that could possibly be entertained by anyone with half a heart. It is unfortunate how strong our culture bends in the direction of that class of explanation, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives
From: hesperis
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM

You can find a continuation of this thread HERE.