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BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay?
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: GUEST,Anonymous Member Date: 13 Aug 03 - 07:52 PM Gareth, are you sure it was the Prozac, or was it possible that the Prozac simply didn't work for them? You didn't provide any details. There are many drugs available because what works for one, may not work for the other. I have heard that Celexa is a pretty good choice. I will have to see if my insurance will cover it. I have done everything on my end that I believe I can reasonably do. Counseling helped. Exercise is great and I'm in the best shape of my life. I eat well. Strangers have stopped me in public and asked what I do to stay in shape. I'm religious. I pray. I feel a lot better than I did this time last year. But I don't feel as good as I could. Personally I am willing to put up with a little nausea for awhile if it will get rid of the "I don't care if I live or die" feeling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Gareth Date: 13 Aug 03 - 07:42 PM Nasty - I've seen what Prozack did to two members of my fammilly. Not funny. I've also seen what the alternative - in my case Alcohol, did to me, again not funny ( in reflexion when I'am sober) - As some Mudcatters will have seen, One pint aint enuf, and one pint is too many. In all three cases (myself included) alternative engagements have helped. But perhaps that might explain why in my case its either drink (binge) or NO DRINK Ah Hell - Confessions !! But if you ain't been there dont laugh - It might be your illness next. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: GUEST,another anon member Date: 13 Aug 03 - 06:25 PM Check into Celexa. Does wonders for me. A low does has made me feel like my normal self again. No side effects, and I've been on it since last spring. I wish I had started it sooner. Celexa is one of the newer antidepressants, I think, a better generation than Prozac. I've also lost weight because I don't do mood eating any more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: GUEST,Anonymous Guest Date: 13 Aug 03 - 05:53 PM I'm already doing that too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Amos Date: 13 Aug 03 - 05:31 PM As an afterthought, anything you can do to induce the body to produce its own antidepressants, through diet, meditatyion, other practices, or exercise, is preferable. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Janie Date: 13 Aug 03 - 04:37 PM I have been on Prozac for several years now. (I'm also a cognitive-behavioral therapist) Any of the SSRI's can cause side effects. For most people, the effects are minimal and last only for a few days or weeks. Nausea is the most common side effect, and usually only lasts a few days. Taking the Prozac with food, and at night, can help with the initial nausea. Most doctors will start you at a lower dose and gradually increase it to a therapeutic level to minimize those early side effects. As with any medication, there are some people who just aren't going to be able to tolerate the Prozac. There are many other effective antidepressants to try if it turns out you can't tolerate the Prozac. Before I was on Prozac I took Paxil. I experienced some really nasty side effects when I decided to taper off of it, and have encountered a number of people who had a similar experience--so you may want to steer clear of it. Good luck. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: GUEST,Anonymous Member Date: 13 Aug 03 - 04:11 PM I have already taken care of the cognitive part. There is still something missing. I am hoping if I take care of the physical part of it, the cognitive part will improve even more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Amos Date: 13 Aug 03 - 04:03 PM Tried it once and it made me sick for 24 hours. Yuck!! Comfrey root is the only "antidepressant" I can use. But it is very different person to person. I have known some who really did well on something like Welbutrin, for example, and others whose only effective drug was a microscopic dose of amphtamine. \ I also believe, myself, that the roots of depression are cognitive, and much earlier in personal experience than is usually even considered. So in general, I don't recommend or encourage the psychodrugs. Mebbe it's just me but I think they are harmful in a spiritual way. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: GUEST,Anonymous Member Date: 13 Aug 03 - 03:47 PM I wanted to revive this thread, rather than starting a whole new one, to ask those of you who have taken Prozac if you had any miserable side effects. I know they have to warn people of all the possible side effects of a drug, even if the incidence of such is only a fraction of a percent. I am choosing to remain anonymous for now only because I haven't yet discussed this with my husband. I went through therapy last year, and it was helpful. I can now recognize some of the things that get me depressed, and I can handle them better. But I still have the problem of Not Caring. As in, I don't care if I get up today or not. I don't care if I walk out into the street and get hit by a truck. I don't care if my nose falls off. I don't care if I never speak to (insert any person's name here) again. Things like that. I notice it is much worse during that Crazy Monthly Woman Hormone Swing. Which means I have about 2 good weeks out of 4 every month. I am going to the doctor next week, and I am going to ask about trying Prozac. I think I owe it to myself, and the people around me, to at least give it a try. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:17 PM ...uh,huh...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:09 PM Hesperis pointed out some important things. The first responsibility of a civilized society is to protect its people the way a mother and father protect their children. That means....provide any and all medical treatment free of charge. Provide full education right through University free of charge. Ensure that everyone has a decent place to live, and work to do if they are capable of working. Make that part of the Bill of Rights. Ensure a minimum annual income for everyone, working or no working, and that income should be sufficient to live decently. Beyond that basic level, everyone would be free to strive for a higher income, a more lavish lifestyle, based on their own efforts, abilities and accomplishments. Thus people would be protected at a basic level, but would still have plenty of motivation to apply and improve themselves. Is that socialism? You bet it is. It's also social justice. They have it in Sweden, and Cuba, and some other places. It does not destroy people's initiative, nor does it create the despised "welfare state" that conservatives rail against. It creates a healthy, well-educated, prosperous population. It eliminates almost all causes of crime, poverty and social despair. In North America we have a society that is based on survival of the fittest (meaning the richest). A society where some are rich beyond reason, where most are in a drugged stupor of commercial materialism, and where those on the bottom are tossed a few crumbs of totally inadequate social assistance...just enough to leave them in poverty and despair, which has a way of perpetuating itself, generation after generation. There's no excuse for it. If we built half as many atomic bombs and stealth bombers we would have more than enough money to redress the situation...and still plenty enough armaments to destroy the world. The system is corrupt, and like Rome it will fall. What I am recommending in its place is a society very similar to that in Sweden...or in the TV series "Star Trek Next Generation". It can and must be done eventually, all over this planet. Money was created to serve humanity...NOT the other way around. Your politicians (Democrats and Republicans alike) haven't yet had the guts to address that truth with any real conviction, or make any real changes. I guess this is thread drift, but it does apply to the discussion in a number of ways. LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:30 PM You know, if you're really having a battle with clinical depression, there are much better places to go for medical advice than to an online music forum. I could be wrong but I don't think there are a whole lot of doctors here. I'm not trying to be smart but this is an issue where well intended but poorly informed advice can kill you! I ran into my primary doctor at a Brave Old World concert a few years ago, but I wouldn't necessarily ask him for advice on music. Please get qualified help if you need it. I don't want to lose any of you. Love, Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: WyoWoman Date: 06 Oct 00 - 08:06 PM Get a copy of Cheri Huber's "The Depression Book" and/or "Regardless of What You've Been Told, there's Nothing WRong with You." She's a zen teacher and a truly lovely person. And her premise is that we live in a society that has to suppress people (depress them) to get them to "go along to get along" -- and that it begins when we're in the hospital nursery and just keeps going. Her point, and I agree, is that if you have a chemical imbalance, by all means, take chemicals to deal with it. But also use depression to look at what we need to work on in our lives. Dealing with depression can produce monumental emotional and spiritual breakthroughs. Taking a medication and calling that good can result in a stasis that might be not-suicidal, but also not very lively. So -- AND HEAR ME LOUDLY AND CLEARLY ON THIS PART, PLEASE, before you go posting about what a creep I am because I don't believe in taking anti-depressants -- it's not an either-or-kind of thing. Do BOTH. Take what you need to take to get your balance restored, or to keep yourself from doing you or someone else harm, AND work on your stuff. We all have it and we all have to work on it at some time or other, so we might as well dig in. AND... have a counselor or good friend (someone who is not equally depressed) be your companion through the process. No one should go through this kind of growth alone. (and yes, I've been there, too. I do know whereof I speak.) ww |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: little john cameron Date: 06 Oct 00 - 07:52 PM OOPS!!! Ah jist noticed that ah pit this on the wrang threed, so here it is again. Subject: RE: Help: When a friend is depressed From: little john cameron Date: 06-Oct-00 - 05:30 PM I just got back from a trip so i am a bit behind on this one. After i was released from the hospital about a month or so i started to feel terrible.No energy,various pains that moved around,just about everything you can imagine i had it.Iwas checked out on every machine in the hospital and they couldn;t find anything wrong.Finally i was referred to a pschiatrist.She said she thought i was probably depressed and should come into the ward. No, says i now that i know what it is i'll be able to handle it.I gadually got worse.Moaning and groaning and driving everyone nuts. One day i got in such a state that i called her and she got me in right away. Lying in the bed sleeping all the time,crying,couldn't be bothered eating and all the time the mysterious pains. She put me on Zoloft as the diagnoses was panic attacks and depression. After about 3weeks i started to come out of it.Started to talk to the other patients and walk around a bit.The attacks still came and went at random but gradually became managable. Iam ok now but have to keep taking Zoloft every day or they come back. It was quite a trip i can tell you. Little Hawk is right about the lack of serotonin.This came about by a stroke i had which in turn caused an upset in the balance in my brain. It is a "Fight or flight"thing that happens and my body gets ready to do something about it but there is no danger,so it doesn't know what to do and the result is these panic attacks.The danger is in my head but nevertheless seems real to me. When the brain starts to pump out adrenalin and there is no fight it doesn't know that and keeps going. Anyway,the answer is to get help as soon as possible as it will only get worse. There is also information on the net about depression and stress . GET HELP!!! You can't do it alone. I KNOW!! LJC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Oct 00 - 07:06 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: CarolC Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:59 PM That seems to be where things are headed, Spaw. Carol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:54 PM Have you seen the cartoon titled "Single Session Therapy?" Its a guy slapping the hell out of the patient and screaming, "Snap out of it!" Used to have one on my office wall. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: CarolC Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:34 PM M. Ted Yes, they have. And they also said that many insurance providers are putting a very strict limit on the number of sessions the insured person can have with the mental health professional. This number is becoming unbelievably small. Sometimes it's as few as four or eight visits. They're starting to teach us how to do a kind of mental health triage, in which we focus like a lazer on one specific issue that can be dealt with in the fewest number of sessions. Having been the recipient of quite a lot of counseling and therapy in my own life, as well as one who will be trying to help people as a professional in the future, I have to say that this situation sends chills down my spine. Carol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:04 PM Carol, have they told you that Medicare only pays 40% of the charges for mental health and psychiatric related service? That is after the deductable has been reached-- Hesperis, I have been where you are, and I have often said that the financial problems created by the system cause more despair that the medical problems that you have to deal with, and in fact, often keep you from dealing with them. The lack of support for alternative therapies is particularly irritating, because they refuse $75 dollar visits to chiropractors, homeopaths(find a good one, Hesperis, they can help those allergies in a way no allergist can!!) and a few dollars for vitamin supplements or other preventive items, yet will drop thousands of dollars on questionable surgery and equal amounts on tests that have no therapeutic value--
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: CarolC Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:36 AM I have experienced something very similar to what hesperis has described. And she is right about this... sometimes the solution to the problem comes with taking better care of people and making sure that their physical needs are adequately met. Having said that, I also wish to say that the situation with regard to the lack of adequate resources for mental health care (at least in the U.S.), is a self perpetuating scenario. This is, in part, because of the attitude held by insurance providers, that drugs can fix everything. I am currently a student, working on my bachelors degree. My long term goal is to get a masters degree in counseling (if my body holds out that long). One of the classes I am taking this semester is a senior level course in Counseling Psychology. People, you need to know that we, the mental health professionals of the future, are being taught in the classroom that we should expect to have a difficult time providing adequate mental health care to those who need it, because the insurance companies won't pay for it. Believe me, this is a BIG issue in my Counseling Psychology class. And this situation exists, in part, because of the reliance on medications to solve all problems. What mental health professionals want the insurance industry to know is that while medications can be effective, to some extent, they don't entirely replace the need for good mental health care. If you care about whether or not you, or your loved ones will be able to recieve good mental health care in the future, if you need it, you need to make it known to those who can do something about it. You need to let them know that you want both kinds of help available through your insurance provider. (And that includes medicaid and other social services kinds of insurance). By "those who can do something about it", I mean your elected government officials. Carol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: hesperis Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:03 PM Oops, pen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: hesperis Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:58 PM My whole long post just above was the wordy way to say: That my problems have clear causes. That I resent it when doctors try to push medication on me for something that would clear up if the underlying causes were treated. That this is my personal reaction to my personal situation. If something works for you, I have no problems with you doing it. Whatever works. Amergin - I am glad it was pencil and paper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Amergin Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:49 PM Me and my family have a history of depression....I was lucky enough to win this disorder through genetics....a few years ago I was officially diagnosed and put on Paxil and Trazodone....Suddenly a crushing weight was took off of my shoulders and I became functional again....after the year was up, I was convinced that I didn't really need it anymore...Boy was I wrong....about a year ago I crashed again...was disfunctional for almost a year....finally, I got a job and after seeking advice here on this forum, I got put on Zoloft....and things have been better since.... I have to admit though that I barely survived this year... I wrote the following poem, while at the very bluff that is mentioned in it....If I had that line instead of a pen and paper, I wouldn't have been here forcing you to suffer with my poetry.... Piece of Paper He stands there in all his natural beauty, gazing down the bluff, staring into the depths of the stagnant pond, imagining the feel of the water, rushing past his body, filling every entrance, every pore, ripping off the paper taped to his breast. He jumps, knees bending, one two three steps, running, stamping the grass blades back into the womb, gently pushing off the ground with the bottom of his right foot, the air flows past his body, every cell tingling with the excitement of flight, the thrill of the air tugging on the paper taped to his breast. He lies there, head snuggling with the cliffside, the gentle breezes softly pushing his naked body along the jagged rocks, scraping the green nylon line entwined about his broken neck, and the shattered remnants of a piece of paper taped to his breast ripples with each mournful sigh of god. Thank you folks....Blessed be. Amergin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: hesperis Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:49 PM "If it goes on for weeks, if it's affecting your sleep, your appetite, your sex drive --" These are just SOME of the symptoms I get from allergies. I've had allergies for as long as I've been alive. My family has suffered from increasingly severe allergies for at least four generations. Whenever I visit a doctor, they try to push anti-depressants on me, because they think that'll solve the problem enough to get me earning a living and "being a contribution to society". I have been tested as allergic to protein, calcium, vit. C, B vitamins, iron, vit. A, corn, mixed grains, salt, sugars, mixed chemicals, dust, mold, and several other things. I am LUCKY that my main reaction is just extreme fatigue, and not anaphylaxis. Whatever food I eat, does not feed me. Whatever I breathe, interferes with my taking that next breath. My teeth and bones are rotting, because I am allergic to calcium. I have problems with all my internal organs because of allergies. I cannot earn a living, because if I work at all I don't have energy for anything else. It's basically Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, without the help that people and governments give to the sufferers of CFS. I have lived in poverty for most of my life, enough that I define "rich" as someone who has enough money to pay all the bills and actually take a vacation once a year. Oh, and to pay for dental work. I have enough real-world reasons to be depressed, that I don't understand why people don't try to cure THOSE, rather than throwing a pill at it and hoping it'll go away. And the doctors want me to take antidepressants?!!! Any medication that doesn't deal with the underlying allergies, is fighting a battle that it will lose. Maybe I'll feel better and more capable.......................and then I'll collapse, yet again, because my body is attacking itself. Antidepressants don't cure THAT. I'm not strong enough to work TWO days a week, much less the four days it'd take to get off social assistance. And every time I go to the doctor, trying to get another month's exemption from having to do a job search 40 hours a week in order to have the government pay my rent, they try to push these stupid drugs at me. Because social services doesn't think that allergies are a "real" disease. I've watched all my high school peers go away to university or college, and get jobs and careers and get married, and buy beautiful homes, and I'm stuck in a stinking basement apartment that floods periodically. It's the best place I can afford, and I'm lucky to have an apartment for so little, instead of one small, cramped room. If I earn any extra money, most of it gets taken off the next month's cheque, leaving me worse off than before. Because if I get extra money, most of it goes on food that doesn't react too badly in my stomach, and the thousand little things that I don't have money for after rent and phone and internet and food and necessary female products. (I'm trying to learn some skills on the internet, so that when I am healthy, I won't be useless. And I'm trying to make friends on the internet, because the friends I can make in person usually drop out of my life when I get sick and I don't call them or see them, or come hang out anymore, because I hurt too much, or I'm finally asleep.) Well, guess what? I'm already a contribution to society, even when I'm up all night crying because I can't see a legal way out of the poverty and disease I was born with.
Before three years ago, I was struggling several times daily, with suicidal thoughts and feelings, especially during ragweed season. Two years ago, I discovered an herbal ALLERGY medication, that has eliminated the suicidal impulses, but not the lack of energy, or the poverty. I have recently discovered from a friend, an alternative treatment that actually cures allergies, and I am trying to scrape together the money to take it. I was working as a dishwasher two nights a week. Until I started sneezing every time I went into work and discovered I'm not just allergic to the cigarette smoke... There's also the mold, bleach, nut oils, etc. You can't just throw drugs at these sorts of problems. But who actually knows what to do that will actually alleviate poverty? Or how to help the people who just slip through the cracks of the government safety net? And I'm smart, and talented, and beautiful. And it isn't of any use without health. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 00 - 08:59 PM I have a good friend who was diagnosed as schizophrenic many years ago. He's a terrific songwriter and poet, but his illness has made him basically unemployable, and he's on a government pension that he can get by on...just. He writes an enormous amount of material, and I have the impression that in an odd way his illness has actually helped him to write...quite aside from providing him with free time to do so. What he experiences is voices...which say all kinds of negative and critical things to him. The only way he can stop the voices is to take heavy doses of meds, in combination with transcendental meditation. He's been doing that for the last couple of decades. There are a lot of pretty bad side effects from the meds. His skin has become very sensitive to sunlight, and keeps breaking out, and he has gained a lot of weight, putting a strain on his heart, etc. He also gets exhausted very easily, and spends a lot of time in bed. He knows that the meds have played havoc with his physical health. He experimented for periods of a few months off the meds, and his physical health improved considerably, but the voices kept bothering him. A tough situation, indeed. I believe the meds are slowly killing him, but he feels that he can't do without them. As has been pointed out above, each case is unique. I don't think there's any conspiracy between the medical profession and the drug companies, by the way. I appreciate the sincere efforts of medical professionals to help their patients as best they possibly can. I do think it's scandalous, however, that in Canada there is full government health insurance coverage for treatment by conventional MD's, while there is little or no such coverage for alternative health practitioners. In Cuba there is totall coverage for both, and it's modern and readily available for visitors and Cubans alike. In the USA...well, I think you all know about that.
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: rabbitrunning Date: 05 Oct 00 - 08:27 PM Okay, this might sound like I'm criticising people who are happy with their medications and I don't mean that. I'm in favor of using medication with patients who are in a crisis. Sometimes that's the only thing that keeps them alive long enough for other kinds of therapy to have time to start working, but I'm also leery of the side effects that some antidepressants have. I suppose I would be much more apt to say, go ahead and medicate! if I were sure that each person who was being "diagnosed" with depression had received a thorough physical, and any underlying problems were being addressed. You see, I'm not a big believer in the DSM. That's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual which is the "bible" of the psychiatric profession. It describes depression as a syndrome, when I think, on many occasions, depression is a symptom. Lead poisoning, infections, and other kinds of trauma can put the body and mind out of balance, and send serotonin levels down to the cellar. And no matter how much anti-depression medication and therapy someone gets for their depression, if the cause of the depression is an old typhus infection, then they're only going to be cured by the _right_ medication. In this case, antibiotics. There's a book by Sydney Walker, called "A Dose of Sanity" which is pretty good about talking about the issue. He's got a soapbox, of course, so read opposing viewpoints as well, but I think his arguments are clear. BTW, so you have some background on this, my uncle killed himself when I was a baby, and his son (who had found the body) killed himself just a couple of years ago. In my uncle's case, he was taking a 'shoebox' full of drugs -- and my cousin had been fighting depression, with medications, for years. My father, who claimed to be manic-depressive in a mild sort of way, had a lot of physical problems too, and in the years before he died, he used to read up and catch all of the drug interaction problems for his own shoebox full of drugs long before any of his doctors did. Which is why I still check the PDR before taking any new prescriptions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:57 PM Depression may not be caused by low serotonin, but boy, beefing up the serotonin sure helps! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:12 PM Someone mentioned that depression is caused by low levels of serotonin. This is kind of misleading--What causes the Serotonin levels to be low? What regulates serotonin production? You can go on and on--and many of the questions have no known answer, because we really know very little about how the brain does what it does, and in fact, we aren't all that clear on what all the functions of the brain really are-- The questions about the relationship between the mind, our consciousness, our spiritual selves, and how they relate to the physical brain and its chemistry, which really are at the root of the questions about psychology--well, forget about em-- Not much is understood about the way that many of the psychiatric drugs function, or why they work sometimes and not other times. The truth is that no one really can tell you what depression is...we recognize it chiefly by external signs, and we tend to miss those a lot of the time--Don't even think that you can understand what is going on in internally-- One thing that is starting to be clear--there is a definite correlation between physical trauma and depression--people who have suffered brain trauma almost always suffer from long term depression problems, the relatively recent use of a variety of brain scanning technologies is showing that a lot of people with depression have chemical and physical abnormalities within the brain that are similar to those who have suffered brain trauma. A good guess is that many depression sufferers had an undetected brain trauma, perhaps at birth, or as the result of an undocumented or forgotten accident during childhood, or perhaps as the result of an illness, or even the exposure to undetected toxins. To my way of thinking, the depression usually doesn't come from problems in childhood or in social adjustment--but it undermines the victim's ability to deal with those problems when they occur--Some people overcome every kind of problem, but some people, suffering from depression, can be unable to overcome any kind of problem--
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:52 PM And - can someone point me to the other thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:40 PM My family has a lot of manic depression in it, and a little regular normal old depression. Even one of my young niblings has been diagnosed with manic-depression, when he was 9 (he's 13 now, and they've gotten his meds right finally, and he's doing great). I have what was termed an "agitated" depression - if I get depressed I can't sit still, rather than not being able to get out of bed. Both are incredibly dysfunctional. Back in grad school, I got so depressed at one point that I realized I was looking for ways to die (not suicidal, per se, just really accident-prone, including a near-collision between my car and a train). That realization had me in therapy before nightfall - I called the suicide hotline and everything. The shrink I ended up seeing through Student Health did not put me on any medication; her theory (into which I bought) was that I had enough to be depressed about (Daddy being killed by terrorists a few years earlier, the childhood issues, yada yada) that she didn't think I did, at that point, HAVE a chemical imbalance. Well, the psychotherapy worked to a point. I got a lot better, a lot more functional, and went on with my life sans therapy because the money had run out. THEN, years later, here I am in an abusive relationship, which I finally fled to save my children. I don't know, and I don't think so, whether I'd have ever left on my own account. So then there I was, back in therapy - and now she has me on the SSRI-type of antidepressant. AND IT'S GREAT. I am still in psychotherapy, in conjuction with the drugs. I can now be much more clear about what is bothering me, and can keep my temper with my kids - and even with my X2b! So I guess my take is, not everything that is wrong with depression (or many other "psychiatric" disorders) is mental. You need THERAPY to deal with the mental aspects, but drugs can "cure" a physical defect, even if said defect is in the way a neurotransmitter is metabolized. The argument against using these drugs reminds me of arguments against using THC for glaucoma - how can it be good for you if it feels so good? Well, it isn't the case that you only THINK your glaucoma is better because you're stoned, it really IS better - AND you're stoned. I think that reluctance is a holdover from the Puritans, where having fun can't be good for you. But that's just my $.02. Therapy can help you deal with the world; drugs can help you deal with you. As an aside, back in the grad school, at one point my doctor tried to get me onto Prozac not because of my depression, but because of something else coming up that ws about to be overly stressful... I took exactly one and went totally MANIC. I had the BEST DAY OF MY LIFE EVER. It was fantastic. It also was incredibly dysfunctional! I never took it again. My shrink said that apparently that is a Litmus test for manic depression - if antidepressants make you manic. Basically, it's a good thing I got into therapy when I did, or I might have really gone psychotic and not been able to come back. I know that some of you who know me personally might wonder if I am back - or indeed if I was ever here... but that's another story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:23 PM Kimmers, I couldn't agree more....and especially with your last paragraph. That battle is common to communities across the land. We have fought hard here to get the things that are needed, but resources are still sorely lacking. As a part of the Child Welfare System for almost ten years, I may have agreed with Hilary at one time.....you know, the old African expression, "It takes an entire village to raise a child." Well, that's true, but it WOULD be easier if so many "villagers" (and parents) weren't complete assholes. Sorry, the cynicism is setting in pretty hard nowadays. Thanks again for your "Doc's View" posting. But you gotta' give those pharmaceutical boys a break!!! They got some neat free pens!!!(:<)) Spaw (husband of medtech) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: kimmers Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:57 PM Little Hawk, while your experience certainly sounds as if you are someone who responds far better to therapy and self-help than medications, I still maintain that there is a place for them in many cases of depression. As far as the comment regarding "the medical industry, allied with the pharmaceutical industry..." this is a common perception, and it doesn't really jive with reality. I find the pharmaceutical industry annoying for the most part. Many of their new meds are simply a re-hashing of some old med, for a new and higher price. We pediatricians tend to be curmudgeons, sticking with our old favorites until someone shows us a darn good reason to use the new product. In fact, with the heavy advertising of new drugs in the lay press, I sometimes hear more about new drugs from the patients than from my colleagues!! I have no vested interest in prescribing Ritalin or Prozac or any other psychoactive drug. I would in fact love it if I never had to deal with the hassles of prescribing such medications. I don't get kick-backs from the drug companies for recommending their product. If there was a simple, cheap, safe, effective alternative, you can bet I'd be handing it out. Despite this, many people persist in believing that we are somehow in a conspiracy with the drug companies to use these meds as a quick and easy solution. Mental health care is desperately underfunded in so many areas. Where I live, a child with an emotional or behavioral problem who is on public assistance may obtain mental health care in only one of two ways: through the severely understaffed county health care system (with one psychiatrist) or through their primary health care provider... me, in other words, despite the fact that I am not a psychiatrist. If I want one of these kids to have an actual therapist, all I can do is hand them the phone number for county mental health and hope that they call. I do not doubt that we could get by with fewer medications if we had more therapists and more funding for them, as well as family members who weren't so screwed up themselves.
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:36 PM Well Hawk, there probably weren't too many incidences of a lot of things and I don't think they lived as long all the time either. Death is a part of life, but we have been able to extend it at times when many would have died before.........Like Rita (Ferrara) above....or me. I think you may view it differently when your choice is life or death. Spaw ... "Barely Living, Through Chemistry"(but alive nonetheless) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:30 PM Yes, Jeri, that may well be so. I think that diet, lack of sunlight, lack of exercise, lack of pure water, shallow breathing, heredity, and a huge variety of other factors can all contribute to depression. I don't think there was much incidence of depression in aboriginal societies where people lived in Nature, but I might be wrong about that. It bears further looking into. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 00 - 12:28 PM I also think it's not a good idea for people to take drugs for psychological problems that have psychological causes. What a lot of us tend to not know, or refuse to believe, is that the cause can be physiological. You can't control diabetes by telling a person to get over it or through counselling, and you can't control chemical abnormalities in the brain that way either. Many of us think everyone's experience is the same as ours, and it's not. Give other people and their medical professionals the benefit of the doubt, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 00 - 12:04 PM Hey, guys...I have again been very busy and don't honestly have quite enough time to read this whole thread right now...or its predecessor...but I'll give you some background so you get where I'm coming from. I too have suffered a great deal from clinical depression from about age 14 through my 20's, 30's, and 40's. These were depressive episodes that lasted for periods of 3 months or more, sometimes 6 months. During those times I would be very withdrawn and would tend to isolate myself. I would also be very low on energy. I very much doubt there was a "chemical" basis for it, however, other than certain dietary factors. I have gradually learned how to improve my diet and lifestyle, and that has helped. There were times when I felt suicidal, but I am so rational that I could always talk myself out of it...besides, I simply couldn't come up with a "method" that seemed acceptable to me. Good thing. I think the original cause of my depressions was mainly the feeling of powerlessness, of not being in charge of my own destiny or my own life. And loneliness. My parents managed to totally dominate me when I was a child and adolescent. Their philosophies of life were pretty much diametrically opposite, but they were each determined to imprint their own identity on ME. Needless to say, that was confusing to a young mind trying to find ITS OWN identity. The basic message was:
1. you are powerless And so on...pretty sickening, eh? Can you see why I might have had reasons to become depressed? Add to this the fact that I was a very shy bookworm, picked on by every sadistic creep and bully from 1st grade to the end of High School...I had such a miserable time in school that I felt like I was being sent to a concentration camp 5 days a week. I LIKED my teachers. It was the other students who were making my life miserable. I soon came to the conclusion that the only way to be happy was to be BY MYSELF, with a good book or something like that. I became very solitary in nature. I didn't even consider going out with girls (although I certainly LIKED them) till I was 21, at which time I moved to Toronto, and got away from my parents, my High School and my past. I proceeded to try to become an amalgam of my favourite folksingers (Dylan, Baez, and Buffy Sainte-Marie) and fairly much succeeded in that as time went by. So...depression. It dogged me through most of my life, and repeatedly brought my life to a halt. It checkmated most of my efforts at music, education, career, and relationlships. At one time or another I sought professional help through a variety of sources. I was never much impressed with using drugs to treat depression, having tried several (Prozac, Lithium, etc.). They all had so little effect that I might as well have been chewing bubble gum for all they did...except the Prozac, which on most occasions did nothing at all, but on one occasion put me in the most suicidal mood I have ever been in. The fact that I was breaking up with a girlfriend at the same time, of course, didn't help. I checked myself voluntarily into a psychiatric ward, and stayed for a month. It was interesting. What I saw there was too much band-aid approach to illness, too many drugs (which mask symptoms, but do not usually address the real problems), too many troubled people and not enough staff. Some of the staff were VERY GOOD, I am happy to say. Over the past ten years I have finally got a handle on all of this, mainly because I have radically changed my mind about who has power over my life. I do. Nobody else does, period. I have a far better opinion of myself than when I was younger. I also have an absolute confidence now in the presence and power of spiritual forces (call it "God" if you want to) that are beside me and within me and love me...as they do all people. I feel valuable, and I feel loved. I am highly suspicious of anti-depressant drugs, and drugs generally, legal or otherwise. However, I do accept that there are some individuals who find them helpful. Everyone has to make up their own mind about that, and give it a try if they want, and see how it goes. If you feel that anti-depressants work for you, that's fine with me. I don't trust them, myself, based on my own experience, but I may be different from you. If it works, use it. I think that the medical industry in general (allied with the pharmaceutical industry) supplies far too many drugs in the course of most treatment, and that this in itself has caused a great deal of illness and death. It has been said: "You are not the victim of the world you see, you are the victim of the way you see the world." And it's true. I see the world now as a VERY good and wonderful place...despite tyranny and oppression, despite misunderstanding, despite all to the contrary...the world is good and life is good. When one is depressed, one doesn't see it that way, and that can be very rough. I feel for anyone who is going through that, cos I have been there. Now I have gotta get to work, but I will check in later. If anyone has a particular concern, PM me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Lox Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:52 AM My best mate committed suicide, and since then I've taken what you might call an amateur interest in mental health as an issue. One of the things that I keep hearing is how the treatment of mental health, and psychiatric medicine in general is still in it's infancy in any country you care to mention. In fact, according to the world health organization, the best mental health care system in the world is in Iran. What? Yes! Iran! Why? Because every community has a kind of social worker, as stipulated in the Koran. This social workers job is to visit everyone in their community as regularly as possible. They therefore know everybody on a personal basis, and so are able to spot the signs of emotional and/or mental difficulties early in the people they visit. They are able to ensure that people nip their problems in the bud, because they give people with difficulties the opportunity to talk openly about what might or might not be troubling them. I am a firm believer in the power of the community (when it exists). I myself have had emotional and psychological difficulties in my life, and they have taken a few years to deal with. They don't go away overnight, and I think we must always be aware that we could slip into an unbalanced state of mind at any moment depending on the circumstances. A group of friends is a remarkable forum in which to share problems and worries. Sometimes we become so depressed that we lose faith in our friends even. It is at this point that you turn to them and say "help!". I told my friends that I didn't want drugs or psychoanalysis, because I was thinking too hard as it was and I had taken a few recreational drugs in the preceding years. I wanted to detox and to clear my mind of the debris of an inward looking, very critical imagination. I felt, and I still feel, that the answer was emotional support when I needed it, and patience when I didn't deserve it. I am against drugs as a cure to psychological problems. I am a human being, and am therefore made up of every fucked up little quirk that makes humans what they are. I am capable of anger, love, fear, paranoia, psychosis, rational thought, genius, crass stupidity, generosity, selfishness. I have a vivid and creative imagination, which, if ignored, will go to work by itself. I prefer to entertain it, and give it something beautiful, creative and/or constructive to do. If I don't, it will create illusions in my every day life. It's not something to be scared of, and shat on with some chemical, it's something to explore and understand and use to make your life and others more rewarding and fulfilling. I could rant on about this for ever, but you'll probably get bored. My friend killed himself out of fear of his creative side. If anything characterized him, it was his creativity. The day that he began loathing it was the day that he lost all love and respect for himself. love it, use it, take care of it and nurture it because it's unique, and you'll thank yourself for being so patient and kind. Be your own mother, father, sister and brother. Mollycoddle yourself. Don't try and cure yourself of "yourself". Your emotions, thoughts, dreams etc are not a disease. they are what make you a human being, and believe me, they are pretty wonderful - if puzzling - creatures. Blah Blah Blah lox |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Ferrara Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:50 AM Just a comment, maybe not welcome, that the cure can be as bad or even worse than the disease. Psychotropic meds can have really fierce side effects. One needs a good doctor who will listen and will make you aware from the start, of the potential side effects so you can find a drug whose benefits outweigh the problems. I say this, having taken lithium for five years to counteract the manic effects of the prednisone that I will be taking for the rest of my life, to keep me from rejecting my transplanted heart... Who was that talking about crutches? Lots of people including me would die fairly quickly without their medications. Finding a balance that minimizes the problems caused by the drugs has been the biggest challenge of the last five years. Medication is a blessing, but not an unmixed one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:27 AM Thanks MT....very well put. And I never had any concern over you and Sinsull. You're both great folks. Bonnie, I'm sure it is hard to relate the story of your Dad and what you say is undoubtedly true. Manic depressives are in a different category altogether and the story you tell is all too common. They are apt to take meds, but when they feel good, they tell themselves they're fine and slip back quite easily. It is almost impossible to keep them on meds that DO work, simply because they DO and when they feel good, they just won't believe the meds are needed. I can't imagine how tough that was on you. Kimmers.......Again, thanks for an MD's wiew. Want to move here? We could use you. I agree that many parents (teachers too) want drugs for "normal" behaviors that are simply aggravating to them. I think that's where so many get the idea that people like myself believe in "throwing pills" when we don't. I believe in caring and understanding and getting to the heart of the matter......If meds are a part of the treatment, they should be looked upon in that way. It is a medication and a PART of the solution. Without them, properly prescribed and dosed, all of the other things may be in vain. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: mousethief Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:54 AM I said I never knew anybody attempt suicide but now I realize I was forgetting my stepson's friend's dad, a retired firefighter, who was diagnosed with a terminal illness, and fell into a very deep funk. Eventually he doused himself with gasoline and set himself on fire. At that point he regretted his actions (this is putting it mildly) and got himself put out. He now has 3rd degree burns over most of his body, and is on antidepressants. Does he still have "reason" to be depressed? Damn right, more now than before. But deep depression is caused by low seratonin levels in the brain, and whether the low seratonin is caused by negative life events or some other more closely biological cause doesn't really matter much. The meds can increase seratonin levels and get one out of the funk, and then you can start to really deal with the life events that may have brought the depression on. In his case there's not much he can do about those life events. He's still dying of the one disease, while healing from the burns. What would the anti-druggies like him to do? Tough it out? Live out the rest of his life in a funk? Get real. The meds work. Why shouldn't they be used? I really think if his depression had been detected and treated (with meds) he might not have attempted suicide. He would still be dying of the terminal illness, but his final months or years of life would be far more pleasant without being in burn therapy, I'm sure. Of course any drug can be over-prescribed or unthinkingly prescribed. And it's hard to really "take charge" of your own medical care when you don't give a rat's ass about even getting out of bed in the morning. Fortunately for me, I had experience with several episodes of mild depression before I finally slid into the deep stuff, so I knew what to do, viz., I made an appointment with my one-time shrink and asked to be put back on the meds. I may never be able to stop taking them. Works for me. Beats the alternative. Mind you, there was nothing in my life a year ago that you would have thought would have produced severe depression. I have a great life, a wonderful wife, decent kids, a comfortable home, a well-paying job (thanks be to God!). But some researchers believe repeated episodes of depression can permanently damage the brain's ability to produce and/or effectively use seratonin. If you are at all interested in depressive illnesses, I can't recommend the book Listening to Prozac enough. It has really changed my thinking about mental illness and psychoactive medication. Yeah, maybe it's a crutch. The way insulin is a crutch to a diabetic, or eyeglasses are a crutch to the myopic. Yet our society has no problem allowing these people to retain their dignity and self-esteem while using their so-called crutches. But get help for mental illness? Take medication for a mental or behavioral condition? God forbid! I experienced my first depressive episode in high school. I tried to tell my parents about it but was told I had nothing to be depressed about (which was true) so to just buck up. My mom is now very apologetic about not knowing better (how could she have?) back then, bless her heart. I dont' blame my folks for anything but mention them as an example of the wrong sort of attitude. We need to educate people -- especially people with kids -- about mental illness so they won't make the same mistake. Twenty-plus years later, there are some who would give the same advice. We have our work cut out for us. Today I feel great. I am able to appreciate all of the really delicious things that life presents. I still get sad when sad things happen, but the weeks and weeks of not eating or sleeping, grouching at everybody, etc. etc., are gone. May they stay gone.
No longer sleepless in Seattle, PS to those who are worried about me and Sinsull: 1. mind your own business, 2. we've made up by PM and are okay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:50 AM Thanks for giving us a medical perspective on this, kimmers--especially for the points about the assumption that there is a drug for every behavior problem(or every problem!). It is true that there is a contingent of people who don't believe drugs should ever be used for psychiatric and hehavioral disorders, and they can be vocal and annoying at times. The biggest problems, though, come from the people who believe that there is a pill for everything, and that people should take that pill, get better, and shut up, and that if a problem persists, it is because parents or family members or the patient won't take their pills-- Depression cannot be cured--There are no drugs to make it go away--but, in many instances, there are drugs that can help control it--but different drugs work for different people, and it takes time to find the right ones.
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: kimmers Date: 05 Oct 00 - 12:04 AM I get involved in this issue all of the time, as I am a pediatrician. So, naturally I'm biased towards traditional medicine rather than alternatives. Duration is an important differentiating factor. Often parents will bring their 13 or 14 year old daughter to me for evaluation for depression because of a few weeks of mood swings... after an interview, it sometimes becomes clear that the poor kid is experiencing normal adolescence. Careful follow-up and counseling is the key, and most of these kids do very well. For those that are truly meeting the criteria for a depressive disorder, the newer antidepressants can be a godsend. But I never prescribe them without making sure that the kid also has been set up for counseling, and has a support system. Medication alone can't do it all. Far more frustrating for me is the assumption by the lay public, especially educators, that there is a drug for every behavior problem. If I had a pill that would make violent delinquent adolescents stop setting their parent's houses on fire, then believe me I would be using it. But for many of those unfortunate kids, the conscience never had a chance to develop. A drug can't fix that. Those of you who have depression, and have found help in the new medication advances, don't feel that you are somehow weaker for needing to use them. Count yourself smarter for realizing that you needed help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 04 Oct 00 - 11:31 PM Bonnie, You make a really important point--I am so sorry you had to learn it the way that you did. You can't give people with depression drugs, and you can't give them therapy and counseling, they have to make the commitment to help themselves, and then, with a bit of luck, the drugs and the therapy can be used to help them to bring their lives back under control-- I can't really bring myself to go into my experiences with this, only to say that right now, after many long and difficult years, my loved one seems to be managing--but it is only through personal effort that has been supplemented with things that have seemed to help-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Little Neophyte Date: 04 Oct 00 - 11:06 PM That's some story Catspaw. It makes me think about my dad. My dad had a tendancy to be clinically depressed. He had enough stuff on his plate to be good and depressed about too. He did accept shock treatment (at that time it was popular) but he rejected much of the counseling offered to him. He sort of got better but eventually he became seriously depressed again and was given medication. He pretented to be taking the medication but instead he was tossing it down the toilet. He continued to not want any counselling which he needed desperately. Eventually he committed suicide. My question is, if my dad had gotten the counseling he needed and had taken his medication, would he still be alive today? I honestly do not think so. In this case, I believe no one could have helped my dad. He was determined to end his life and so he did. Bonnie
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Oct 00 - 10:14 PM Rich, you have made a fine point that I think relates to the many who believe that drugs are a crutch. just like throwing money at education hasn't worked, throwing the latest drug at people became popular too and I believe its created a bad impression in the minds of some. Professional help is much more than the drug du jour. Perhaps one of the worst things to come out of that haphazard and unprofessional approach is the belief that drugs don't work. The RIGHT drug for a particular person in a particular situation....well that's another story. In Karen's case for instance, Prozac and Zoloft had little effect, but Luvox has had spectacular results. There are many families of the a-d's and variations within the family, not to mention dosage, are all factors in the success of the treatment. I think ol' Troll put it extremely well. The drugs are not a cure or a solution, but they make the process at least achievable when used properly. I saw too many "pros" go the "du jour" route with kids in care without really tracking on the situation. Mostly, in those cases, they just continued along. In a few the results were tragic. I was not a popular guy with the "pros" but we made progress and eventually have gotten good people to provide the services actually needed. Tough love is a tough thing on both ends. It is the hardest thing I ever had to learn. At 2:30 AM one March morning I responded to a call from the agency and found myself in the home of a loving family, good friends, and tireless workers as foster parents. I watched as the EMT's took a 15 year old young man out through the door in a body bag and I helped to clean his room. I knew the boy well myself and I realized too late the value of tough love. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:36 PM Sinsull and Spaw, Don't feel bad about getting angry here. I've seen people cut there wrists because some self-appointed doctor told them they don't need their medication. (Well, I didn't watch it happen but you know what I mean) Usually, some windbag who wants to appear like he knows more than everyone else. "If you prayed as much as I do...", or "If you worked the 12 steps more diligently..." or "You think you've got problems? I've got [this and that and so on} going on and you don't see me running around crying about it." Now I believe that drugs shouldn't be the instant answer and that a victim of depression should be diagnosed carefully, ie are there outside factors, stress, alcohol/drug abuse, etc. It seems like some doctors are really quick to throw a bottle of pills on a problem without really trying to diagnose it. I have some input to share on the subject that I won't put on an open forum, PM me if you want. NOW the MOST important thing I have to post here is I am not a doctor. My opinions are just that, my opinions. Unfortunately, based on observation of some unfortunate people who suffer from a disease that , by the grace of God, I've not had to face myself. Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Ebbie Date: 04 Oct 00 - 08:52 PM Whew! Praise, I'm with you: these people are lovely! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Oct 00 - 08:50 PM Oh Troll honey. You love so powerful, a little IS a lot. Soak up as much as it takes. There's plenty. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: Troll Date: 04 Oct 00 - 08:40 PM I tried willpower and self-medicated myself with booze and such for a large portion of my life. I credit chemicals and a caring and understanding family and group of physicians for the fact that I am still alive and that I have not physically harmed anyone in the last few years. I am not "cured". I function-sometimes barely-but I function.And thats something, people. You don't know what it means to walk out to the mailbox until you can't Right now posting is about as much contact as I can stand. But it gets better, little by little. There are good days (weeks, months) and bad. But the highs are not as high and the lows are not as low and sometimes I can love back a little. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chemical antidepressants -- yea or nay? From: SINSULL Date: 04 Oct 00 - 08:39 PM No you're not a mind reader, Fionn. I came from the other thread in disbelief that anyone would discourage a sick person from taking medication prescribed by a doctor because some doctors over-prescribe and got smacked in the face with a second thread which appeared to me to take up the subject too frivolously to ignore. My sarcastic remark reads like a most insensitive, crude, and vicious attack when not placed in the context of my previous comments. Spaw tried to put it in context and ended up looking as if he was blindly defending me. I was pissed that he thought I needed defending. I have cleared the air with mouse in a PM. I have publicly apologized for my anger to Spaw and Little Hawk. I repeat what I said above - I would be well advised not to speak in anger especially on a matter that requires a clear head. Mary |
