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Help: Approx. date needed for song

GUEST,Hilary 17 Oct 00 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Ian M. 17 Oct 00 - 10:25 AM
Irish sergeant 17 Oct 00 - 10:40 AM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM
Airto 18 Oct 00 - 07:34 AM
Airto 18 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM
The Walrus at work 18 Oct 00 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Hilary 21 Oct 00 - 07:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 00 - 08:08 PM
Jo Taylor 24 Oct 00 - 06:01 PM
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Subject: Approx. date needed for song
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:38 AM

Hullo all-- I volunteer at a local historical site where the date is always 1771 (!), and I need to know if a song is old enough to perform there. The title is given as "My Young Man", and it appears on The Oyster Band's album "Lie Back and Think of England". The lyrics are very simple: I've got a bonnet, trimmed in blue Do you wear it? Yes, I do! Where do you wear it? When I can--going to the fair with my young man! Liner notes state only that it was a children's song. So my question is, WHEN?? I know these things are often dreadfully difficult to document, but any tips would help. I'm also curious about a song I've only ever heard on "Prairie Home Companion" which goes, in part, Gonna tell my mam when I get home the boys won't leave the girls alone Pulled my hair and they stole my comb But that's all right when I get home She is handsome, she is pretty, She is the belle of Belfast City... Thanks-- Hilary


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: GUEST,Ian M.
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:25 AM

Hilary,

Your second song is called "I'll Tell My Ma" and is a very common Irish song and has been recorded many times eg Clancy Brothers, Dubliners etc.

Good Luck,

Ian M.


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:40 AM

Actually, I've also heard the second song referred to as "The Boys Won't Leave the Girls Alone." CAn't help with the first but maybe some one from the Brigade of the American Revolution can. They are a Re-enactor society that recreates the American Revolution and hopefully they would know. Unfortunately i don't have a web address for them. Good luck in your search. Kindest reguards,. Neil


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Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: I HAVE A BONNET TRIMMED WITH BLUE
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM

I'm afraid that I can't help much with the date, but I can tell you that the tune, played as a polka, has been popular in Scotland, Ireland and England; it also turns up as an Old Time tune in America.  In Ireland it is also known as Tá Boinéad Agam.  There are a number of examples at  JC's Tunefinder, among them the following (first example Irish, second English):

X: 1
T: I have a bonnet trimmed with blue
B: The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin, ed. D=E1ibh=ED =D3 Cr=F3in=EDn
Z: Paul de Grae irtrad-l 2000-09-04
M: 2/4
L: 1/8
W: 1. I have a bonnet trimmed with blue;
W: Why don't you wear it? So I do.
W: [twice]
W:
W: 2. I will wear it when I can;
W: When I'll go away with my fair-haired man.
W: [twice]
W:
W: 3. Open the window, do love, do!
W: Listen to the music playing for you!
W: [twice]
W:
W: 4. [repeat 1st verse]
W:
W: There's also a version quoted from Iona & Peter Opie's book, "The Singing Game":
W:
W: 'I have a bonnet trimmed with blue.'
W: 'Why don't you wear it?' 'So I do.'
W: 'When do you wear it?' 'When I can -
W: When I go out with my young man.
W: My young man's away at sea,
W: When he comes back he'll marry me;
W: Buy me a biscuit, buy a tart,
W: What do you think of my sweetheart?'
K: D
AB/c/ dB | BA F>G | AA GE | DE F2 |
AB/c/ dB | BA F>G | AA GE | ED D2 ||
A,D FB | AA F>G | AA/A/ GG/E/ | DE F2 |
A,D FB | AF F>G | AA/A/ GG/E/ | ED D2 ||

The following is the entry from  The Fiddler's Companion

ALEX DICE. AKA and see "Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "Cracovienne," "Din Tarrant's," "I Have a Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "I have a donkey, he wouldn't go," "Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Kradoviak," "T· boinČad agam," "Tarrant's," "Walk Jawbone." American, Schottische. USA, Pa. G Major. Standard. AB.  Bayard (1981) identifies this as an international tune, tracing it to the German "Krakovienne" c. 1842-50 printed in Boehme, which was known as "Cracovienne" or "Krakoviak" in the British Isles.  He also states the tune was known as "Walk Jawbone" in the U.S., and that in Roche (Vol. 2, No. 302) it appears as an untitled set-dance. The tune was also known as "Bonnet (or Jacket) Trimmed in Blue" from lyrics associated to it that began: I have a bonnet (jacket) trimmed with blue,...
Bayard (Dance to the Fiddle), 1981; No. 405, pg. 383.

I HAVE A BONNET TRIMMED WITH BLUE [1] (Ta Boinead Agam). AKA - "I Have a Bonnet." AKA and see "Alex Dice," "Bonnet/Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Din Tarrant's" "I have a donkey, he wouldn't go," "Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Krakovienne" (Boehme), "T· BoinČad agam," "Tarrant's," "Walk Jawbone." Irish, American; Polka.  USA, eastern Mass. G Major (Bayard, Breathnach, Mallinson): A Major (Mallinson). Standard. AB (Bayard): AABB (Breathnach, Mallinson). The name comes from the ditty beginning "I have a bonnet (jacket) trimmed with blue."  Sources for notated versions: Mrs. Anastasia Corkery (Cambridge, Mass., 1930's; originally from Co. Cork, Ireland) [Bayard]; whistle, flute and concertina player Michael Tubridy (Ireland) [Breathnach]. Bayard, 1981; Appendix No. 30, pg. 584. Breathnach, Vol. 3, 1985; No. 68, pg. 35. Mallinson (100 Polkas), 1997; No. 29, pg. 12 & No. 60 , pg. 23. Claddagh Records CC27, Michael Tubridy - "The Eagle's Whistle" (1978).
T:I Have a Bonnet Trimmed with Blue
R:2/4
K:A

I HAVE A BONNET TRIMMED WITH BLUE [2]. Scottish, Polka. D Major ('A', 'B', 'C' and 'F' parts) & G Major ('D' and 'E' parts). Standard. AABBCCDDEEFF. A variation of version #1.
Martin, Vol. 1, 1991; pg. 48.

I HAVE A DONKEY, HE WOULDN'T GO. AKA and see "I Have a Bonnet Trimmed with Blue" [1].

JACKET TRIMMED IN BLUE, THE. AKA and see "Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "Cracovienne Quickstep." Irish, Canadian; Polka. Ireland, West Kerry. G Major (Messer): A Major (Mac Amhlaoibh & Durham). Standard. AABB. Mac Amhlaoibh & Durham, No. 12, pg. 16 (appears as "A Bonnet Trimmed in Blue").  Messer, 1948; No. 57. Messer, 1980; No. 98, pg. 63.

KRAKOVIAK. AKA and see "Krakovienne," "Cracovienne," "Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Bonnet Trimmed in Blue," "Walk Jawbone" (USA). Scottish, Dance Tune (2/4 time). G Major. Standard. AABB. Known in Germany as "Krakovienne."  In County Donegal, Ireland, this tune (as it appears in Kerr's) was used at house parties to accompany the dance The Berlin Polky (Polka), as remembered by musician Danny O'Donnell. Kerr, Vol. 1, pg. 46, and Vol. 4, No. 419.

WALK JAWBONE [2]. AKA and see "Alex Dice," "Bonnet/Jacket Trimmed in Blue," "Din Tarrant's" "I Have a Bonnet Trimmed with Blue," "I have a donkey, he wouldn't go," "Krakovienne" (Boehme), "T· BoinČad agam," "Tarrant's."  Old-Time, Breakdown. F Major. Standard. AABB.  Apparently adapted by American black-face minstrels from an Irish melody.  See Irish version in Roche, Vol. 2, No. 302 (appears as "Set Dance").
Walk, jawbone, Jenny, come along.
In come Sally with her bootees on.
Walk, jawbone, Jenny, come along.
In come Sally with her bootees on.
Ford, 1940; pg. 103. Minstrel Songs Old and New, 1879; pg. 210.

The above would tend to suggest that it's not really old enough for your purposes.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: Airto
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:34 AM

I'll Tell Me Ma

Hilary, as far as I know this is a Belfast skipping song. To judge by the lyrics, I would guess it's origins are much more recent than 1771 . Furthermore, Belfast only started growing into a town, never mind a city, in the early to mid-19th century.


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Subject: Lyr Add: I'll Tell Me Ma
From: Airto
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM

Rats! The text of my message seems to have vanished. Let's try again...

click here

Hilary,

I'll Tell Me Ma is a Belfast skipping song. To judge from the lyrics, I would say the origins of the song are much more recent than 1771. In any case, Belfast only started becoming an important settlement in the early 19th century.


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:12 AM

Airto,

Your point about Belfast is well made, but I remember hearing the song as a child both as "...She is the belle of DUBLIN City..." and "...She is the belle of LONDON City...". These may have been local variations (I'm a Londoner), or it could be that "Belfast" is the variation and the song is older.

Regards

Walrus
(Born a "Devil's Advocate")


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 07:52 PM

Thanks all--particularly Malcolm-- for your time and attention. Best info/guess seems to indicate both are too recent. Shame, as both have cracking melodies... Ta for the help!


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 08:08 PM

"I'll tell me ma" has been sung all over the place, with all kind of place names, including Dublin and Glasgow. I suppose for a rhyme it'd have to be a city,but there's a fair number of them around, and were in 1771.

You could try getting hold of The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes


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Subject: RE: Help: Approx. date needed for song
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 06:01 PM

Neither of them seem to appear in the Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes, are they there?

Jo Taylor


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