Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?

Subject: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:20 PM

Rehearsing with my fiddler tonight, I was amazed to hear her talk about a "shottish" (accent on first syllable). In Scotland I have always heard the dance called a "skott-eesh" (accent on second syllable). She assured me that in the contradance community, at any rate on the Eastern Seaboard (she comes from Virginia) everybody says "shottish". Is she pulling my leg ?

Murray

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Matt_R
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:21 PM

Should be "Sko-TEESH-uh"

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:23 PM

'Shottish' on the US west coast.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:47 AM

Schottisch is German for Scottish, and she's pronouncing it right.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:59 AM

In both Kansas and all of Wyoming, shott-ish is what we say.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: campfire
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:05 AM

I grew up doing the "shott-ish", too. Midwest USA.

campfire

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Matt_R
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:11 AM

Got it. Correct German pronuciation "show-teesh-uh".

--Matt (half German)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:12 AM

The only people I've ever heard say schottische were from Sweden, and they pronounced it something like 'shott-ish,' too.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:37 AM

G'day Murray,

Here in Australia, the general folk dance pronunciation comes out as "Shoteash", but a lot of old players in the country clip it down to "Shotease". Neither has any validity in the alleged German derivation ... and nothing like the argument potential of Varsovienna / Varsovienne / Varsoviana / Versuviana / ... / Vater Wiesskopf / ... / ? / !

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: John J
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:33 AM

'Shoteesh'....around here anyway (Manchester, NW England) John

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:26 AM

I grew up in Wisconsin with "shottish" accent on first syllable -- as a form German music played by local (including my father) polka bands. And here in NH I also hear it (from fiddlers mostly) as shottish.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:49 AM

In the song "Dorothy Drew" We SCOTTISHED and we polka'd to the strains the band did play..... In fact when our club residents sing it, it sounds more like "Scottidged"!

Both Dorothy and me are from Manchester so I'm not sure about JohnJ's pronunciation - Perhaps different parts of Manchester pronounce it different ways??? Weird init?

Cheers

D the G

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:17 PM

I was raised in Southeastern Minnesota in the 40s and 50s, and there was a lot of "old-time" (read "polka band") music on the radio. Whoopee John, Six Fat Dutchmen, Frankie Yankovic, and lots more. SHOT-ish was always the pronunciation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:19 PM

The best transliteration of the German pronounciation of 'Schottisch' is 'shottish' (first syllable stress) as both Ebbie and Bat Goddess have it. For the best transliteration of 'Schottische' I borrow the last syllable from Matt and make it 'shottish-uh' (stress on first syllable) with a barely audible last syllable.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:08 PM

Actually, it is pronounced just the way it sounds--

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:57 PM

In Iowa, mid-50s: SHOT-ish. (And it was ALWAYS the same tune, the one I've seen in books called "Rustic Dance.")

From Norman Kennedy, Scots singer and weaver: sho-TEESH. Note that he has the "shot" beginning, not the "scot" syllable that Murray had, but did have the accent on the last syllable.

Hope this helps.

... But I doubt it.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:04 PM

At weddings, when I was growing up, we called it "the one the band plays that's not a waltz or polka". I concur with my fellow midwesterners; in Chicah-go we call it the "Shod-ish"

Hope youse are havin' a nice day.

Bart

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 02:23 PM

In both Ontario and Alberta, I've usuually heard "shot-EESE". I'm sure it's incorrect by the original German, but if it's what people say around here, it should be recognized as a valid variant.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Bill Foster
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:34 PM

All the older fiddlers I have known in the Southern Appalachians (East Tenn., N. Ga, Western N.C. have, without exception, pronounced it SHOT- EESE, with the accent on the second syllable.

Bill Foster

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:43 PM

Perhaps it is only in the Highlands of Scotland that the "hard" c is pronounced. Obviously if one does a straight translation from the German then it should be SHOT-EESH-uh (as per Matt). But my memory from my dancing days in Scotland is of "taking your partners for a Skot-EESH." I do not remember ever hearing "Shot-EESH" nor "SHOTT-ish". Which is not to say that it might not have been pronounced that way in some areas. I am not saying there is any right or wrong pronunciation here, I was just interested to know how the word was pronounced in different parts of the world.

Murray

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM

My brother-in-law married a girl of Swiss descent, and at the wedding in Louisville, Kentucky the Swiss band called it the Shott-ish. Great foot-stompin' fun.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:02 PM

Compare those Southern Appalachian fiddlers to Whoopee John's Wilfahrt Orchestra, and I'll bet that pronunciation is not the biggest difference!!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:20 PM

Well so many different ways, I'm amazed. In B.C. our family (Scots/English heritage) always pronounced it "shaw-teesh", with the emphasis on the last syllable. My father-in-law, aged 82, of Scots heritage as well and born in Saskatchewan, still plays a few on his fiddle and he uses the pronunciation "shaw-teesh" too.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Max Tone
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:32 PM

I'm from SchottLand, an' ah've aye heard it pronoonced Shotteesh.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:13 PM

Speaking of Whoopee John's old-time (oompah) band, as kids we used to get a giggle about saying, "Whoopee John Wilfahrt and his band will play."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: little john cameron
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:26 PM

Whit a fuss aboot a word!!! In order tae figer oot the CH business ye have tae know the difference atween the words an letters that make it up.For insnstance GLENFIDDICH.ICH is ISH usually,OCH is the gutteral CH sound as in German,usually.So SKOTTISH is richt. ljc

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:30 PM

Right where you live; wrong everywhere else, evidently.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: little john cameron
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:40 PM

Me again,ah jist read the hale threed an ah see we hae a differance in the German sound o ACH. Tae me ACH in German wis a sound that cannae be written in English,But the other sound o ACH is ASH. Ah 'm assumin OCH wid be the same' ah could be wrang tho. ljc

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:42 PM

Funny what sounds regional differences produce. I once lived in a Bewnah Vissta (Buena Vista). There are some really deplorable pronunciations. Have you ever visited California's Las Gattus? (Los Gatos) or Valdeez (Valdez, Alaska)? There are many more.

Not surprising about schottische, is it.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Ely
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:55 PM

It's still SHOTT-ish in Iowa (and Texas and Missouri and . . . )

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Harold W
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:30 PM

My dear old grandmother from Sweden always pronounced it shot'ish. She was always trying to teach me to dance the schottische, but when it came to dancing to it, I had two left feet. It was also pronounced that way when I lived in NE Montana. I also tried to learn to dance to it when I was there.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From:
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:54 AM

I'm a long time removed from Scotland but I still say skoteesh.

I wrote the word down and asked my wife to say it. Without any hesitation she said skoteesh

Listen to Robin Laing singing on "The Angel's Share"

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 06:39 AM

Thak you Jack, I was starting to think my memory was playing tricks! Interesting that so many areas promounce it "shoteesh" however. Maybe in those areas they send their kids to "shool " !

Murray

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Tony in Sweden
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 07:03 AM

Just a note to 'Lepus Rex',
I doubt if they were from Sweden as the terms used here are "Skottland" and "Skotsk".
mvh T.C.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: AKS
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 09:06 AM

In Finnish the dance is called sottiisi (loaned from Swedish schottis) or sometimes saksanpolkka (=german polka).

Somehow evidence above seems to imply that it was through Germany that the dance first became popular outside Scotland and thus known by its German name (der) Schottische (Tanz), without the /k/ sound.

AKS

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 11:45 AM

And in German the combination S-C-H is always pronounced "sh".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Burke
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:47 PM

Is the Schottische as done in Germany & scandinavian countries even done in Scotland? In Scotland if they say take your partner for a 'Skot-EESH' are we talking about the same basic dance with different pronunciations, or different dances entirely?

My understanding is that the Polka is a Czeck dance in immitation of the way they dance in Poland. The Porka is an Hungarian dance, different from the Polka, in immitation of the way they dance in Poland. I thought the Schottische was not Scottish, but rather a continental dance in immitation of how they dance in Scotland.

Don't know the time signature but it's: step-step-step-hop (2x); step-hop(4x). You create figures on top of these basic steps, frequently doing pivot turns with your partner on the 2nd part.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 01:12 PM

Gawd, doncha' just love these kind of threads? Seriously. As a word travels about it picks up all the influences from the dialect of the region which is often evolved from a broad spectrum of languages itself. Its always "right" wherever you are, even if its wrong.

Singing and music styles are obviously the same way.....Its honest if its you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 04:37 PM

The fella round our way who uses the word always misses out the "t" in the middle, putting in a glottal (glo-al) stop in its place.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 07:42 PM

Who cares how you pronounce it? How many of you erudite pundits can actually dance it? Even here in Schottland (pronounced SCOTLAND) ye're lucky if two couples take the floor when the band announces a SCOTTEESH, and then at least one of them will be doing the Barn Dance!!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:16 PM

I can! It was one of the ones I was forced to learn when I was about 12, mind you, since then I have only had one partner who could also do it too and that was only for one evening. (Its amazing how dance steps stay with you, sort of like riding a bicycle I guess, because there was almost thirty years between opportunities).

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: JennieG
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:20 PM

Well Tattie Bogle, I can dance the Shot-ease! Gentlemen take your partners........
Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:27 PM

Yes, I learnt to dance it too, but my memory is that it was always announced as a "Highland Schottische". What else did we dance then ...Canadian Barn Dance, St Bernard's Waltz, the Gay Gordons of course, Strip the Willow, Dashing White Sergeant ......I could still dance them now I think if my heart could take it.

Murray

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:33 PM

Burke is right; the "Schottische" is not, originally, a Scottish dance-form, but rather a European approximation of the Strathspey (with the dotted notes reversed).  It's about as Scottish as the Polka is Polish...

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Harold W
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM

As widespread as it seems to be, maybe it was started by the vikings.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 01:18 AM

Murray adding to your list, I also learned the French Minuet, now theres a dance you need every day.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 01:22 AM

but it is definitely easier on the heart.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: JennieG
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 06:59 PM

Now the French Minuet, that would be very staid and genteel wouldn't it.......I'd like to learn that one, it would make a change from some of the dances we do here!
Trippingly
JennieG

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Oct 00 - 07:05 PM

Nah, Tony, they were Swedes. They weren't speaking Swedish, though. But I swear, they said 'shott-ish.' ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 03:27 AM

G'day,

I am surprised that those who insist that "ch" must be pronounced "k" ... with or withour the leading 's' (in fact my German Dictionary gives exactly the same value to 'sch' in German as to 'sh' in English) have not come to grips with the problem that "Schottische" would then become "Skottick (uh)".

JennieG: In the photos I showed you of Kathy & David Potter's wedding, they had a bridal minuet instead of a bridal waltz ... think 'Trippingly' might refer to the potential of the dress sword that David wore slung by his knee breeches!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:06 AM

Bob, I don't think anyone is insisting that anything is "right" or wrong they are just reporting how the word is pronounced in their neck of the woods. It is obvious however that "Skoteeshers" are very much in the minority, but then again, the Scots have always been used to being a minority.

Murray

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Rollo
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 05:03 PM

HEY ISN'T IT FUNNY!

Everywhere else they call this dance "schottische"...

only here in northern germany we call it "Schotts"... (to be pronounced "Shots"

But who cares, as long you do it slow enough, so our stiff german folk dancers can follow the tune without dropping over her legs, hurhurhur...

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:59 PM

G'day Murray,

I have no brief for any concept that there is a right pronuciation ... you can't be a native English speaker and justify that proposition. I was just pointing out to a small minority that claimed there was a single 'right' pronunciation of a German "ch" that they were overlooking the second occurrence in the same word.

If you want to take a strict approach to pronunciation within the dance and music world, you have to follow the French in dance names and the Italian in matters appertaining to music - the source of a local silliness that I alluded to in my first post in respect of "Varsovienna / Varsovienne / Varsoviana / Versuviana / ... / Vater Wiesskopf / ... / ? / ! " All valid pronunciations for the same dance ... somewhere in the Australian spectrum.

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,Rita Bentley
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:25 PM

`I grew up near Crater Lake, Oregon with Texas parents. A small little community had a community center and held dances once a month or so. This was in the 1940's We all danced the Schottish was how we said it. I was about 5-11 while dancing this dance. It was my favorite and so much fun. A local family played the music, Gibsons, had a sax, piano, guitar, bass, I believe. I loved watching the piano player.We left there and moved to Northern Calif. in 1951 and I never heard the Schottish again.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:48 PM

I studied German for four years in high school and got a minor in college.

Yet it just occurred to me that in German 'Schottische' would have 3 syllables, because the final e would be pronounced. If I said

Das ist eine schottische Tanz. (That is a Scottish dance.)

schottische would be pronounced SHOT ish eh, and the eh is a short e as in red. We English speakers have mislaid a syllable.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:53 PM

Leeneia, Tanz being a masculine noun, the correct phrase would be "Das ist ein schottischer Tanz." But you're right about the pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 10:28 PM

Jawohl. I was just about to correct myself.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:16 AM

I have heard that the word is neither German nor related to Scotland - comes from an old Polish word meaning "jump".

"Skotshne" in Yiddish - klezmer preserved the original Polish sense, as a solo display dance, often with its own flashy tune.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:18 AM

In the part of Scotland I was born it was pronounced Scot eesh

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 03:42 AM

Serious segue, here:

Rita Bentley, I am from Oregon, from the 'wet' side. I have visited Crater Lake- and was mind-blown by it - but I didn't realize there was a community around there.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: JHW
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 05:17 AM

One tends to stick with the pronunciation first heard, even after correction. I first heard this at St.Chartier, France called a shot-eesh, emphasis on last syllable. Similarly though I know what a sailboard is it sounds awkward, the first name that comes to mind is 'planche a voile' because that's what the first ones I saw were called. (At Sidiailles nr St.Chartier)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 07:53 AM

I have only ever heard it called "shoteesh" in English. The emphasis varies, being from south east England I tend to put it on the first syllable.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

When I googled the word schottische, many definitions came up claiming that the schottische is a kind of polka. I don't see that.

A scottische goes one two three hop, one two three hop, one hop, two hop, three hop, four hop. A polka is far simpler. So how do they figure?

Nobody mentions that while the feet do the above, the body is doing bigger motions - such as turning around, going in and out of the circle, dancing side by side with one's partner, changing partners, etc. There are many versions of these, and thus there are many schottisches.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 11:26 AM

OED gives shott'eesh or 'shottish (translating from IPA).

Mick

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 22 Oct 19 - 12:04 PM

West Argyll, always an area in which Country Dancing was very popular, we pronounced it "Highland Scoteesh" in agreement with Megan.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of 'Schottische'?
From: leeneia
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 12:32 PM

I think it was in Milwaukee that we had a symphony orchestra conductor named Schermerhorn. He pronounced it Skermerhorn. The rest of us rolled our eyes.