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Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times?
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Subject: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Rick Fielding Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:07 AM Wow, two threads in two days. This REALLY means it's too cold to be outside raking leaves! The subject of irony has come up several times recently on Mudcat, and a few times around here with Peter T. and myself. I'm curious what Mudcat friends think. Often in conversations with Mudcatters I've had someone say "Oh I don't like so-and-so, 'cause they seem pretty mean". When I've been curious enough to check out what they objected to, it often seemed to me that the "mean" person was probably being "ironic" or at the least, just trying to be funny. It obviously wasn't coming across that way to some. I think I used to be a prime offender in this area (if it IS an offence), and would often express an opinion using irony. Got misinterpreted a lot. As an example, once after a particularly emotional student made a HUGE breakthrough by finally (after several weeks) nailing a C,F,G7 chord change...I said(with a big smile) 'well you're never gonna be Segovia....but I think you're well on your way to becoming a picker". Three weeks later she told me that she had lost sleep and been completely distraught because I'd "insulted her"(!!??) with my "Segovia" crack. I was dumbfounded. I think her reaction was extreme, but I'm very careful now what words I use with her, and our sessions which (I thought) were usually pretty light hearted are now substantially more serious. I've modified some of my use of irony or dark humour on Mudcat, just 'cause it's not that difficult to do, and why upset people needlessly, but sometimes I miss it. I find it instantly comes back when I'm around specific people. Any thoughts? Rick (who'll never give up trying to put it in thread titles) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:22 AM We're always being told Americans have no sense of irony but most I've met in real life or on the Mudcat seem to have good irony detection systems. My (English) boss takes everything literally so I can't be flip or jokey in meetings anymore. When in doubt, 'Catters, assume anything in my tedious threads is probably ironic or intended to be "amusing" and not to offend. RtS (Where's the irony? On the ironing boardy). |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: John Hardly Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:24 AM I've learned the hard way that NOBODY takes it as irony if they have no history with you (generic you). As a relative newcomer I've realized, with some dissapointment, that I don't come across as a good-humored guy. A tough pill to swallow. Some people are better than others at typing in a way that conveys humor and is less threatening. I've seen almost identical posts in content, in the same thread, and one draws offense while the other draws laughs. It almost always goes back to who posted which, and their history in the forum. John |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:34 AM One thing with irony is that it can become so automatic that you don't even notice it - and that's a problem with an international community like that, because back on the East side of the Atlantic, that tends to be how we talk.
All kinds of phrases like "I suppose you're proud of yourself" or "That was very clever of you" will almost invariably mean the opposite of what they seem to say. When you tell somene that something they did "Wasn't too bad", the chances are it means it was bloody good. And that example is one where you can either see it as irony or understatement.
It's not unlike that way of changing round the meaning of a word, that's prevalent among some Americans, so they say "bad" when they mean "good", and so forth. The difference is that here the word keeps its meaning, but is used ironicaly to mean the opposite. In America, as I understand it, the new meaning adds on to or replaces the old, and there is no ironic sense when it is used.
In both cases it can lead to misunderstanding on a site like this. As can other differences which we are always exploring. For example the word "mean" which still for us normally denotes being tight-fisted. (I'm never clear whether when Americans use the term "mean" with the sense hard/vicious/nasty, and apply it in a way that indicates approval, that is an ironic use or not.)
And the moral of all this is that if anyone ever says anhthing that looks like an insult, assume it's not meant that way until and unless it's been made crystal clear that that is what it is. If you make a mistake that way, what have you lost in unintentionally turning the other cheek? Whereas if you make the mistake the other way, and see an insult where one was not intended, at best you risk being seen to be a bit ridiculous, and at worst you are stirring up discord and turning friends into enemies. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM Rick, I tend to agree. I use a lot of humour, irony, satire, parody, wit and, yes-like Catspaw-, some scatology in my live performances. When folks can see and hear you in 3-D, they generally get it. Well, maybe not your student! In our English classes in high school at home in the '60's we were taught the differences between irony,satire, parody, etc., and had to write essays showing that we understood the difference. Nowadays, few students are taught these subtle differences, hence the lack of understanding. Not only on the printed page, but orally as well. An awful lot of people at present would think Jonathan Swift was serious when he advocated eating Irish babies, and they definitely would not get the satire in Gulliver's Travels. I think we've reached a sorry state of affairs in literature and writing when we need to use emoticons and "BG" to let some people know that we're being humourous. All the best. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Jeri Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:45 AM It also depends on whether people are in a mood to get upset or to laugh. You take your chances on the internet. Some use irony innocently. Others will post something they think is blatantly ironic in the full knowlege that someone will take them seriously. (This happened to me once in a newsgroup, the the person who "missed it" was someone who had previously discussing that Americans didn't understand irony.) Rick, your student should have been happy about not ever being Segovia. He's dead, isn't he? If you're gonna take things literally, might as well go all the way. Of course, it's possible to out-irony the initial ironizer. Somebody always starts taking things seriously. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Little Neophyte Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:48 AM McGrath makes a good point Rick. If you think about it, if this student knows you, she would also know you would never intentionally insult her. If she thinks you would, then you have to wonder whose got the problem. Its not much fun when you have to be very careful about what you say to another for fear you might upset them. It limits the relationship. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM Rick, I've learned the hard way that you and your audience (whether it be one person or a roomful) should get to know each other before anybody gets subtle. I really cannot allow myself to go on autopilot when I'm interacting with someone I don't know and who doesn't know me. I try to keep things simple and literal. As we interact, if I think it is appropriate and I am in the mood I can open up and show some of my other facets. The way I look at it, my bland generic side is free. If you want more you've gotta prove you can handle it. Everything I have said so far is about face to face verbal communication. Typescript on a computer screen is an entirely different animal. The Mudcat forum seems to me to be full of confirming instances that attempts at subtlety are normally a waste of time. Like trying to teach a pig to sing..... |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: sophocleese Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:09 PM What's irony? I don't understand. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Bagpuss Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:13 PM In my family, you're not accepted till you have been insulted. We wouldn't dream of insulting someone we didn't like. My little brother calls my husband "fat boy". Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:14 PM Rick, I agree with what John Hardly said and I have often said that there is still no substitute for really getting to know another human being. I would add a couple of things. First, it's great in 3D to share responsibility for communication-- if you say something that is taken wrong, or make an outright mistake and be BADDD, it's easy to see the reaction if you're paying attention, and clear it up right away. In cyberland, though, a perceived barb can go deep so fast, and can take so long to pull out, with or without the help of the party who launched it, that an enormous amount of harm can result. I'm pretty strong and ultimately pretty positive, but there have been three or four of those here at the Mudcat that just laid me in the bed for days to weep it out of my system, to come back and open the forum again. These were not anonymous flames, either. What made it possible to stay here, actually, was that they were (with one exception) from people I knew and whose humor had momentarily escaped me-- but I knew they would hang in to clear it up. And even that one I did not know is now a good friend, cuz we cleared it up later when it became possible to do so. (See how funny that first line of this paragraph is if you think about whether the person reading it knows me yet.) All the good things Mudcat does-- a lot of them are possible because we open up so wide to let stuff in, here. When what comes in is hurtful, it goes as deep as the good stuff. So think about that. But also, sometimes it's just that whatever you say is EXACTLY the right thing at the right time for someone who is working away on themselves and suddenly, on this one day, what you say and how you say it brings up the flood they've been holding back for years and years. And it has come up with YOU because yoo have been SO SAFE all along and therefore they are not numb when they are around you. (And they think you understand EVERYTHING they have longed to understand, themselves. Hope springs eternal and then becomes a club!) I had one like that last week, and it hurt a lot, but now I can spot it coming up and see that it's my own stuff I'm looking at. It was a smaller thing than your remark about Segovia, in the context of the friendship that surrounds it. But it was what jumped out at me as that week's piece of hurt to work through, and it had been a rough time leading up to it that I was still recovering from, job thing-- and until I began to work on it I really felt like the other person had done BADDD and become, retroactively for a moment, the dumbest person I know! The bad he had done was simply not to remember everything I have told him about how awful I think I am! LOL! So I don't think you can be responsible for what people think and feel, because you are not a mind reader, but neither are the other people... so stuff has to be talked about when it gets mixed up, and once the talking starts, I believe both parties are equally responsible for the cleanup, no matter how unintended or real the hurt. Cuz the talking is a fresh thing, see? A thing on its own. I also think that here at the Mudcat, we don't allow enough for the different online experiences people may have had eleswhere. Some like me are brand new when they land here, and also this place is different from anywhere someone HAS been. If you come in with expectations on what goes, they are usually off the mark here. Whether being ironic or hearing someone be ironic, that's got to be a factor. People are here with all sorts of previous experiences. It's like church in that way. You never know what someone is bringing in with them till you get to know each other. You cover the same Bible reading, regardless, but each person out there hearing it is at a different place of understanding it, plus whatever baggage they have about it anyway. And Rick-- aren't you a sweetie for caring about all this and bringing it up to discuss! Didn't I offer to help with any anti-"Rick's wonderfulness" element? Is it time to report for duty? I have time now, heh heh!! No job for awhile!! Who bein' mean or blamey on Rick? Huh?? I gonna git you! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: DougR Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:15 PM I agree with Seamus when he regrets that we have to use things like :>) or **GRIN** to reassure the reader that we mean no harm. Too bad your compliment went right over your student's head, Rick. If she ever harbored any hopes of becoming another Segovia she obviously had given no thought to what it takes to become a serious concert guitarist. The compliment: you're on your way to becoming a fine picker. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Kim C Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:20 PM Heehee. I got an e-mail from a friend of mine this morning, saying he had been extremely busy, and he used the phrase "one funeral after another." Well having just lost my father two months ago I took this serious - oh my, hope you're all right, let me know when you get back, etc. After I thought about it, I began to think maybe it was just a figure of speech, and I may look pretty silly. But I figure it's better to err on the side of caution - because if he is serious, and I laugh it off, that's pretty insensitive. If he's not speaking literally, then at worst I look like a really sweet and sensitive airhead. What I mean to say is, that while electronic communication is one of the best inventions ever, sometimes it's very hard to glean people's intentions when you can't see or hear them talking. So you just have to decide if something is really worth being upset about, and worth expending the energy over. :) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Catrin Date: 30 Oct 00 - 12:30 PM Yeah, I think its a shame in a way that we have to use *bg* etc. to make it clear that we're not serious. I've sort of become used to it though and had recently decided that it makes up for not being able to see the person, or people we're talking to. - or more importantly, they can't see us. In other words. The *bg*s compensate for the lack of normal visual cues -like big grins, raised eyebrows etc that would be present when we are making a joke. So I suppose it's not a shame really, more of a necessity. Especially when you consider our different backgrounds, cultures, ways of being in the world... My tuppenceworth. Catrin |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: hesperis Date: 30 Oct 00 - 01:07 PM Yeah, getting a large dose of iron full on the front has been known to be dangerous. Especially if it's pointed AT one. But a small, gentle, blunt, 'whack upside the head' can sometimes be okay. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Whistle Stop Date: 30 Oct 00 - 01:37 PM However... I do agree with Rick's point that there seems to be a diminishing appreciation for irony these days, and it's really too bad. This brings to mind Randy Newman's experience when he put out "Short People" in the 70's. It was so obviously an ironic commentary on bigotry (substituting "short people" for various ethnic groups that could have been the subject), yet it sparked an enormous negative reaction from people who seriously thought he had something against the vertically challenged. And this was one of his most heavy-handed songs -- imagine what would have happened if one of his more subtle works ("Sail Away," for instance) had attracted all that attention! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Rick Fielding Date: 30 Oct 00 - 01:43 PM AIEEEH CHIWAWA!(sp.) That's it, isn't it? On the net we don't know who's having an especially bad day do we? If you've just buried your Grandma, and some cheerful soul (maybe your's truly) makes some remark about the average age of his concert audience the other night being "deceased", it's gonna sound awful. Two or three like that, and one Mudcatter (or two or three) are gonna think the first is a total bastard....when all they might have been trying to do was be ironic or funny. I use the word "nurd" constantly, and my friend Henry can't understand why I'm being so critical of myself. I explain that I often use words in the opposite way the mainstream does. He just shakes his head and says "but why do you have to...don't you think you're as good as the rest of us"? I doubt he'd ever understand the unintentional irony in his words. Rick (Doomed To Be Ironic) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Bill D Date: 30 Oct 00 - 02:04 PM *sigh*...I have 'some' friends that I can never use irony, puns, non-sequitors, etc.....around. Their comprehension just does NOT function on those levels....but in person, I can at least adopt a facial expression, (raised eyebrows, rolled eyes..) that signify that SOMETHING silly is happening...and I learned 3-4 years ago, that when posting to a discussion group or chat room, I need to add emoticons or *grins* or something when there might be doubt. We MUST face it...people differ VERY widely in what they think is funny, cute or clever....as much as they differ in their opinions about religion, sex, food or politics. You can't avoid some mis-understandings in this medium, but you can head off the worst ones usually. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 02:07 PM Rick. "Doomed to Be Ironic." Gosh that sounds like a song title!!!! Hurry up and finish it though, I picked up a dormant geetar left in our emptied nest today and started to SLIDE!!! Holding it flat like a dobro! Cuz I don't have a dobro!!! (Always wanted to slide, and can't stand the callus development thing, tried that, went to autoharp!) It's a 12 string! (Not anymore!) I have NO idea what I'm doing! (!Caramba! I may need some help! I don't care how ironic!!) I know nothing about geetar!! TUNING FOR SLIDE???? Nada, nada, !nada! Save me Fielding! (I once was strummed but now I'm slid, was fried but now I'm free!) [Uh oh! They REALLY can't stand it when PRAISE gets out of character! (Amazing crepes, how sweet the stack that fed a kvetch like me)] Mudcat loves me this I know, for the PMs tell me so, little hurts for me to soothe, I send words or hugs from sooz. See? Save me Rick! Ironize me, I think I need it! I-ro-nize! My point is, you are by all accounts a great teacher. You can;t be TOO much of an a**h*le or you'd be broke by now. No I mean REALLY broke and looking for some day job from hell. And what you've written me from time to time shows a great capacity for being a good friend. If you are also some kinda flawed meatball, I personally am relieved to know it, for it makes it easier for me to just be one too, around you, and I can't take too much of that pedestal stuff, icch!! So relax-- teach, be yourself, let fly, and if it makes a mess clean it up. You're fine just as you are. This stuff you are worrying about may actually be an enhancement, in the right crowd! *G* (((( RICK )))) ~S~
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Oct 00 - 02:19 PM There is a fine art to subtle irony on the net......... and I have no idea what it is. There is a fine art to subtle irony in conversation.............and I have no idea what it is. There is a fine art to remembering what this thread is about...........and I have no idea about that either. I can't even remember where my original thought was going -- Come to think of it, I've never had an original thought anyway. Screw it. Next!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Oct 00 - 02:31 PM BGs, emoticons - how is that for all these years people have been writing letters to each other and books and poems, and managing without these clever little innovations?
I don't mean we shouldn't feel free to use them as an additional communication technique. But suggesting we need them because of some special characteristic about the Internet - I can't see it.
In my 3D experience, it tends to be that the time when you need to point out that people should take what you say as not meaning what it sounds like, is when you you actually mean what you say literally, and feel it necessary to underline this. That sentence was meant slightly ironically...I think.
But this I mean absolutely literally: so long as someone isn't seen by you as an enemy, if they see you as an enemy, they are just aiming at some fantasy figure who isn't you at all, so, since they aren't using real bullets, there's no reason in the world to get upset about it.
And the same goes when they it looks as if they are attacking some friend. And in both cases, the chances are that they aren't actually attacking anyone, but have a different way of using language from you. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: p.j. Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:11 PM Well, it's not exactly "I Was Born to be Ironic", but it's as close as I could come on short notice...
BORN TO BE WRY
Get your mouth a-runnin'
Yeah darlin' go make it happen
I like smoke and mirrors
Yeah darlin' go make it happen
Like a true straight-man's child
Born to be wry Organ solo (preferably pancreas)
Get your mouth a-runnin'
Yeah darlin' you're doomed to satire
Like a true straight-man's child Born to be wry Born to be wry pj |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: mousethief Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:12 PM Nicely done, PJ!
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: MK Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:16 PM Canadians can be so apathetic sometimes...............ahhhh............but what can yah do? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Kim C Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:19 PM Sometimes the written word, too, has its pitfalls! As far as full frontals go, I would rather not have to see Harvey Keitel naked in the movies ever again, as long as I live. Oh....... is that not what we're talking about?!?! ;) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: The Shambles Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:32 PM Nice one pj
It may be more true than you think. For I have been stuck with an ironic way of looking at the world and expressing things in that fashion quite naturally, for as early as I can remember. 'Born to be wry'............ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:33 PM I dunno Kim.....It could be. I don't want see ol Harv either. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: p.j. Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:42 PM Is that what you call it Spaw, "ol Harv?" |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Catrin Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:55 PM I used to be really apathetic. But now I just can't be bothered. *sigh*.......... |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:14 PM PJ!! Mock embrace!! GREAT!!!! LOL!!!!! Born to be wry, eye-eye-eye eye-EYE! OK!!! How do I tune for SLIDE??? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Kim C Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:34 PM I mean, if I have to see a naked man in the movies, I'd rather it be Mel Gibson, but he has too much character to do it..... failing that, Daniel Day-Lewis would be satisfactory. :) Isn't that ironic? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: bbelle Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:46 PM Nah, Kim, Mel Gibson has a droopy butt. Now, Daniel Day-Lewis in Last of the Mohicans was a "fine" specimen of manliness. Sorry for the threadcreep, old man, just couldn't resist. Irony is great and it's funny, but I save it for people who I've met inperson, or with whom I've at least had a few live conversations. This would go for sarcasm, as well. And sometimes I'm just being onery or pissy and sarcasm is sarcasm. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: kendall Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:51 PM Considering that I am a professional humorist, I used to think that anyone would have to be pretty numb to think I was being nasty. The hell of it is...sometimes I cant tell either! The big problem seems to be that this method of communication is so limited..no facial expressions, no subtle nuances, voice inflections..they are vital in total communication, and we know what we are saying, but its easy to lose sight of what it sounds like to the listener, or reader, as it were. Anyway, I love irony, sarcasm and insults from people I know, so Rick, fire away..I will never misunderstand you, and Spaw, if you dont insult me once in a while, I feel left out! One of my heros is Rumpole of the Bailey, another is Basil Fawlty, That should tell you something. So, if I have been unkind to anyone (including Matt) you have my sincere apology. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Kim C Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:54 PM moonjen, if it's full frontal, his droopy butt won't show........... |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 04:59 PM SNIFF!! THEY DON'T WANT ME TO PLAY SLIDE HYMNS... Oops, unrepentant Capslock invades again! Make up my own weird tuning? RICK...... Cripes! Can't get a good teacher for all the irony in the air! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Morticia Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:33 PM ROTFLMAO pj........and I'd always thought " Born to Drink Mild" was funny, your's beats it all to hell! On the subject of irony.....we were,weren't we?......I'm really aware that, unlike a book, we are, in a sense,talking directly to one another rather than 'holding forth'; that is, it is an interaction. Furthermore it is an interaction between people of different cultures, backgrounds etc. and accepting that what I find funny, ironic, silly etc.another won't is a lesson I've learnt slow and hard, and occasionally not at all.........I prefer not to take chances now as, whilst I don't much care about being flamed by 'guests', I would be horrified to upset a friend, even inadvertantly. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: bbelle Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:45 PM Jayzuz, Kim ... maybe that's why I'm high and dry ... I don't know full frontal from full backal ... lessee, here ... "what goes up, must come down. spinning wheel got to go 'round." Now, I get it. The spinning wheel is the problem. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Ebbie Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:48 PM Praise- I think you will probably want an open G or D tuning for slide. (Just to give you ammunition until someone knowledgable speaks up) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:05 PM Oh Ebbie, thanks, but that's not basic enough! Say D... that would be....? Seriously! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: mousethief Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:08 PM From fat string to skinny string: initial ("plain old") tuning: E A D G B E Tune DOWN (never UP!) to: D A D F#A D Good luck!
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:33 PM *G*, ask a simple question! I never saw so much trouble getting an answer! Izziss a music forum or what???? THANKS ALEX!!! Thus the sliding begins. (Not backsliding, maybe that's what they thought I meant!) LOL!! Thanks again Alex! Need new strings. Action seems low, I keep hitting frets with real light pressure. Recommendations? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: mousethief Date: 30 Oct 00 - 06:40 PM GET A REAL DOBRO! Barring that, thicker strings will make for higher tension and thus less slop. If you're only ever going to use this guitar for lap slide playing, have a guitar shop or your local handyman raise the nut and bridge. Good luck! And you're welcome, sweetie!
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Oct 00 - 07:43 PM M'Thief-- Get real income first!!! Pay off autoharp repairs too! And the computer on its way around the mountain! (God, please, please, if it be Your will that I do dobro hymns, I know you'll provide... or maybe a lap steel rig? Yeah.. for Sankey stuff... uh huh... OK, I'll wait and see!) Thanks for the help. May God help us all! D'ya think I need to worry about holding it like a dobro, flat, with a strap, like a cigarette girl!! LOL-- any structural reasons why it might prefer not to be tensed that way? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Oct 00 - 07:50 PM "Wry" - that's a good word. Much better than irony. More rhymes for it as well.
Wry whiskey, wry whiskey, wry whiskey I cry, if you don't give me wry whiskey I'm sure I shall die. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: John Hardly Date: 30 Oct 00 - 09:20 PM Just a sidebar, not a true hijack. when something really great like pj's parody comes up does it get archived separately or do we need to remember the thread to recall it? juswundrin' John |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM WHOA UP HERE FOLKS!!!!! GOT ONE FOR YOU!!!!! For those of you enjoying this thread, go read one titled: PEADIE AND A HEADLESS PARAKEET Its a real gut buster!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,peadie Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:05 PM Yes where is the Irony in that one?????? All I see is a sense of humor, which some people lack. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Matt_R Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:10 PM Don't worry Peadie, Spaw is just like that. He likes making fun of young people who haven't studied the metaphysical philosophy of farting. Take everything this man says as a joke though. It may seem nasty, but he's basically just an old crunchberry trying to be funny. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,peadie Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:17 PM But he has told me to get an attorney, when I have not commited a crime. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: rangeroger Date: 30 Oct 00 - 10:30 PM Praise, the intervention is working again. I was listening to Kelly Joe Phelps'"Roll Away the Stone" the other night and thought about you.Mainly that you should really hear the CD. He plays lap steel with an old Gibson flattop that he lays on his lap. Awesome guitarist and you should here his version of the Doxology. rr |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Troll Date: 31 Oct 00 - 01:02 AM Peadie, We TOLE you to watch out for Spaw. re the attorney thing, we think he has a relative who is a lawyer and he's just trying to drum up a little business for him.That or he was pullin'yer leg. troll |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Micca Date: 31 Oct 00 - 01:12 AM pj, BRILL. ( thats UKese for very good indeed) you have provided Morty with her long awaited theme song,,, nd kevin, I think its a great word too but then I only came along for the wryed. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: CarolC Date: 31 Oct 00 - 02:14 AM Full Frontal Irony...Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? ;-) When I first came to the Mudcat, I think I was a bit snobby about the use of emoticons. I think I figured that anyone with any sense of irony at all would understand exactly what I meant, and the rest would probably just shake their heads and ignore me. I thought emoticons were silly. I found that this is simply not the case. There are people who, from my experience of them here, I can reasonably expect will understand me if I don't use the emoticons. But even with these people, I can't always count on them understanding. Then, there are quite a lot of people who just don't know me well enough yet to know that this is a part of my personal style. For people who have been here a while, you might expect everyone to know where you are coming from because they ought to know you by now. Keep in mind, though, that there are new people coming to the Mudcat all the time, who are just learning about you. It's probably a good idea to give these people at least some oportunities to see you while you're not being subtle, so they can understand by comparison when you are being ironic, and when you are not. I do find, now that I've been around this form of communication for a little while, that I am beginning to see emoticons in much the same way as I would percieve body language. Sometimes more subtle ironic humor requires a very flat affect. Sometimes a little body language is ok. For me, I guess I look at it as a judgement call. I usually figure I'm taking some risk if I don't use the emoticons, and I decide if I think it's worth it for the amount of humor that can be derived by leaving them out. Sometimes I use them, and sometimes I don't. Full Frontal Irony...Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Carol |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 05:53 AM It's hard to come up with an emoticon that equals being deadpan. rr, wow! No wait-- RR, WOW!!! Rick told me where my chords will be. Holy smokin' sh*t! Slide one day, next the Mac'll be arriving! Oy! Who dat in mah house??? What she DOIN'???? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: CarolC Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:02 AM LOL, Praise. "Deadpan" is no emoticon at all! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:06 AM Maybe someone should publish an edition of Jane Austin with emoticons added for the readers who otherwise would miss the irony...
Actually, I can just imagine someone doing exactly that. O tempores, O mores... |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:20 AM Yeah, Carol, it would have to be like this: ~S~ Maybe since no one would get that we could use this: >-< to indicate flat affect? Or: (:-|)
Or with a party hat if you're asking Spaw to go for it: Hahahahhhh!
Slight ironic grimace:
Just a hint of disapproval: ~*BG*~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:25 AM Oops, } : - [ ) spacing: ( : - | ) <( : - | ) I'm going back to bed! } : ~ z )
Wait, tongue in cheek-- ~S~
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: CarolC Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:30 AM Did you see how I was practicing not being ironic? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:36 AM Yeah! G'nite! } : ~ z ) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: jets Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:28 AM It has been said;That many truths have been said in Jest. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:38 AM Susan, you went to bed 10 minutes after I got up to go to school! :{> |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: MMario Date: 31 Oct 00 - 09:51 AM |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 31 Oct 00 - 10:27 AM I think MMario has summed it up nicely, but to have the last word (as if!): this thread reminds me of a cartoon: Prison guard shows a visitor to a cell where there are 2 men chained up, both have sheet metal masks on their head, one with a smiley face painted on it: [Wait for it]: Jailer (Gaoler):"This is the man in the iron mask... and this is the man in the ironic mask". Boom Boom RtS |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Steve Latimer Date: 31 Oct 00 - 10:31 AM RTS, Sorry that I'm taking away the last word. Love that one, was it Garry Larson? How about the devil opening the door to the room full of picking, grinning Banjo players and saying to the man accompanying him "Welcome to Hell Maestro" |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Troll Date: 31 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM You will be punished for that, Roger. And to the poster Formerly Known As Mbo, You're just now getting up? The day is half over. Boy, you young kids have it soft. Why when Spaw and I were young...bla, bla, bla, etc... and THAT was only if we were sick and it was Sunday! troll |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Troll Date: 31 Oct 00 - 10:38 AM Sorry. That should read:"The Poster Formerly Known As Mbo" troll |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: hesperis Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:24 AM Is that sort of like "The Artist Formerly Known As Prince"? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:30 AM ©¿©¬ ~~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Bill D Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM ©¿©¬ ~~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:41 AM ©¿©¬ ~~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM © ©¬ ¿ ~~ BTW Bill D, that first one of yours-- ow, my neck! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:46 AM He musta practiced!
©-©¬ ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 11:47 AM I give up. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: AndyG Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:00 PM ©¿©¬
nice one !
AndyG (just testing) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: mousethief Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:06 PM We can see Peady has never been divorced: But he has told me to get an attorney, when I have not commited a crime.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Little Hawk Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:09 PM Ironical that a thread on irony has devolved into a thread on thread drift...or is it a thread on emoticon constructions or.... Sophocleese is the TRUE mistress of irony. Why has no one brought up the Alanis Morrisette song "Ironic"? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Kim C Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:29 PM Crunchberry? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Rick Fielding Date: 31 Oct 00 - 12:43 PM Darn it 'Hawk, I always thought that song was called "Moronic"! Actually despite all the thread drift, I've learned a lot from this. Anytime you can get 10 or more Mudcatters posting at least one serious reply to something, a fascinating picture emerges. By the way, I simply don't have the brains, perseverence or memory to do those little "emoticons" (that IS what they're called, right?) so I'll probably continue to be misunderstood at times. I mentioned earlier that I "pick my spots" when being ironic or humourous. That of course means knowing who you're talking to. On Mudcat, you only know who you WERE talking to. If the next person who jumps in thinks yer brilliant dark humour is simply nasty, or racist, or sacreligious, or pornographic....yer up shit creek. We can't predict who the next person in is gonna be. Makes it interesting. Thanks for the feedback folks. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: GUEST,Pedantia Snootflute Date: 31 Oct 00 - 03:11 PM Really! Hmmmph! I'm highly offended that anyone would dare use irony on the internet, let alone humour in general. One should always be perfectly understandable, because heaven knows it's not the reader's responsibility to try to understand what they read! If you just look at what could happen when you just make a simple joke, you can see how dangerous irony can be. Suppose someone doesn't think it's funny? We could wind up with a terrible argument about it. Suppose they simply don't understand it? This would make them feel left out. I really think all humour should be banned - irony, sarcasm, knock-knock jokes... even quotes from Dan Quayle. Well, that's all I have for the moment. I'm sure you will all realise I'm right and STOP THE MADNESS!!! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: wysiwyg Date: 31 Oct 00 - 03:28 PM tHERE OUGHTTA BE AN AWARD FOR THE BEST GUEST NAMES EACH YEAR. Aw crap, Capslock it's you again! I nominate Pedantia Snootflute. Problem is, how to award the prize? RICK. That was SO SMART-- that we can know who we have said something to, but not who we will have said it to! BRILL!!!! Just think too how odd when people cross-post and do not know they have entered into a chronological record that freezes their comments as though the second post was made with awareness of the first. Eeew, spooky! And hey, emoticons aren't drift in this thread, they are part of the attempt to address the issue raised by the thread! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:29 AM If Victor Borge can come up with phonetic punctuation, we clever little Mudcatters oughta be able to come with much better emoticons - not that I'll ever use them! All the best, Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Crazy Eddie Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:41 AM Isn't "irony" just like "silvery" or "tinney", but made of iron? Confused from Croydon :o) |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: pict Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:44 AM Why get your head in a knot about someone not copping on to irony it's their problem.A good solution is to hold your tongue and observe if you feel someone is being snide after a while you'll see the true nature of someones comments and it definitely pays not to be too sensitive on internet forums. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: WyoWoman Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:18 AM Well, since it's difficult for me to speak/write without being intermittently ironic/goofy/humorous, it makes me weary to have to think of constantly monitoring myself to make certain I'm not offending. It seems the surest bet is not to be cocked and ready to go off at the slightest whiff of insult. and McGrath of H, I absolutely agree with you. For generations, the printed word has served quite well to transmit ideas and emotions without the use of *special* punctuation to clue in the reader that IT'S TIME TO LAUGH HERE, FOLKS... And, saying that, I know we live in different times and a different world and ... blah, blah, blah. Still ... it makes me feel sad to think of people going through life so literal minded and willing to have their feelings hurt. But then, I've worked in newsrooms for 20 years, and that's where all the smartasses go to get regular paychecks, so what do I know... ww |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: CarolC Date: 01 Nov 00 - 02:20 AM Rick Fielding, I caught you engaging in some beautiful subtle irony on the peady and his headless bird thread. In particular, your 10/30, 11:38 post, and your 10/31, 12:02 post. I think it suits you perfectly. I'd go with what you do best. Are you sure you're not from Orillia? Carol |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Jeri Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:53 AM That was me being Pedantia, in case anyone was getting worried. You know, Seamus Kennedy mentioned a lack of education about subtle forms of humor (or should that be "humour?") - maybe this IS their education! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Rick Fielding Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:51 AM Carol. Although my first professional gig was in Orillia (at a place called Owaissa Lodge) back about a hundred years ago, I'm only a sporadic visitor. (have done about 10 concerts there in 30 years) I think there's a Secret society operating in that area. Before you can become an "honorary Orillian" you have to go through many bizarre initiation rituals. I think they run naked through the woods, brandishing their bodrhans and tooting their flutes while singing Ironic folksongs. I don't do a lot of "bodrhan brandishing" anymore. I DID however teach a couple of young Owaissa Lodge staff how to sing a Gregorian Chant in the middle of the lake in a canoe on that first visit! Rick |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: mousethief Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:58 AM I wonder if you could make a buck driving randy tourists to a hidden spot from which they could watch Orillian wannabes running naked through the woods? I wonder if a naked man would have a temptation to play the bodhran with his.... No, let's not go there.
I woke up thinking about Turkish drummers
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: WyoWoman Date: 01 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM I've always wondered about my tribe. I think I may have Orillian Ironic roots ... Wait ... they WERE tooting their OWN flutes, right? ww |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: hesperis Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:53 PM Well, you see, er....
Actually, I'm not answering that question. Sophocleese? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Kim C Date: 01 Nov 00 - 02:22 PM It all depends on what your definition of toot is. :] |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Bert Date: 01 Nov 00 - 02:54 PM Rick, there's some days you just can't win. I remember posting to a BS thread one time and someone got the wrong end of the stick and jumped all over me; even though I had qualified my posting by saying that it was supposed to be funny. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: kendall Date: 01 Nov 00 - 03:38 PM mousethief, I expect spaw could play the Kettle drum the way you implied. He might even replace J. Arthur Rank! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Tinker Date: 01 Nov 00 - 03:42 PM Once had a teacher who said he would never make fun of anyone he didn't like. Couldn't trust himself not to cross the line. Seems like a good basic rule. And if I use the assumption that they must like me or they wouldn't say it.... well, I may come across as dense sometimes, but it's also a wonderful response to the plain ol' flame type. Having grown up in a house full of irony and good natured ribbing it's hard sometimes to measure words for mis-interpretation. Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: SINSULL Date: 01 Nov 00 - 04:40 PM Actually, mouse, at one point Catspaw (I think) directed us to a website offering just those services. Camp in the woods and sneak a peak at couples in flagrente. Forget why he posted it but he did. Now to get back to the "full frontal" stuff. I remember a cartoon in the New Yorker just after "The Piano" was released. It showed a matronly lady and her husband dressing for a formal affair. The caption: "Just remember, if Harvey Keitel shows up, you're going home alone." I have a wonderful publicity photo of Orson Welles and Tyrone Powers in Elizabethan dress - tights and a tunic. Doesn't leave much to the imagination. Both have old Harvey beat hands down. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM hands down?... |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Jeri Date: 01 Nov 00 - 06:13 PM You know, I've always wondered where they got tights back then. I mean, they didn't even have spandex! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Nov 00 - 06:28 PM They didn't wear tights - it was "hose". You think Walter Raleigh had a suspender belt? |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: sophocleese Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:27 PM umm hesperis, if you'll remember the last time I tooted I had to borrow the 'flute'. It was a nice stubby purple one though even if it didn't have enough holes. |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: harpgirl Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:37 PM ...imagine the irony of someone coming to Mudcat for religious advice! What's worse, the religious fanatics didn't get it!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Jeri Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:45 PM McGrath, of course not. It would have to have been panty hose. Suspender belts would just be silly! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: sophocleese Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:50 PM I see harpgirl just reminded us of cross gartering too. What Ho! Malvolio! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: Matt_R Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:52 PM And yellow stockings! |
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Subject: RE: Full Frontal Irony. Dangerous at times? From: kendall Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:53 PM bert, you didnt qualify it until I jumped on you! It was real clear to me that you were showing great disrespect for two of my very good friends. So, I over reacted, so sue me! |
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