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Help for rhythmicly challenged?
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Subject: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Jo King Date: 14 Nov 00 - 11:22 AM I have been playing guitar for a while now and I need to focus on rhythm to strengthen my playing.I was wondering if any Mudcats would know of any books, book/CD combos, or videos that would provide a good background to a variety of music styles (I enjoy most styles). I have seen a number of products, but I would like to hear your choices, and what strengths you saw in the products. Thanks, and be well. Jo |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: mousethief Date: 14 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM One word: metronome. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Jo King Date: 14 Nov 00 - 01:19 PM Mousethief, Thankyou for belittling my sincere request. Often people these days are so tied up in concern for others and a desire to help those who are willing to express a shortcoming. It is refreshing to see that you do not conform to such conventions. I do own and use a metronome, and have a reasonable sense of time, but I am having difficulty transferring that to consistant and interesting strumming/picking patterns. Perhaps I should pretend, through this electronic medium, that I am an expert. I think that it would be easier to do than looking for answers. It seems to work nicely for you. While I appreciate a good joke, I would encourage you to redeem yourself by adding the constructive portion of your criticism in another message so that I may benefit from your knowledge and experience. I am fairly new to Mudcat, but I know that your approach here does not represent the general approach of other mudcatters. I was not expecting to write this type of response in this thread. Sorry folks. Be well, Jo |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: paddymac Date: 14 Nov 00 - 01:49 PM Two words: Well, I was going to make a reference to a religious doctrine which members of other sects think members of the non-referenced sect adhere to, but which said members actually seem to ignore, in favor of more practical and effective non-doctrinal methodologies similarly favored by doctrinal non-cohorts affiliated with said other sects. Confused? Hell, it's not even electoral politics. *BG* But, as to your question, I had the same problem until I stopped trying to "read" and allowed myself to just feel the rhythm of the piece. So, my advice would be to not be so self-critical, relax, and enjoy what you play instead of working at it so hard. It will come together for you eventually. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: mousethief Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:11 PM Jo King, I hope your vitriolic and downright nasty response to me was due to having a hard day, and not part of a regular pattern. I wasn't belittling you. Nor do I think I'm an expert (you can tell that from one word?). Far from it. I'm sorry I upset you. If you ask any number of people here you will find I am not a nasty and cruel person, and try to be helpful whenever I can, and pleasant and light-hearted when it seems called for. In this case I was indeed answering pithily, but not flippantly. I will expound and hope it helps to show what I was getting at with my earlier post, and dispel your acrimonious notion of me. I had a heck of a time with my timing while playing the guitar -- this was especially evident when I tried to learn to do the alternating-thumb thing while fingerpicking. I couldn't keep a beat to save my life. I went out and bought a metronome, and practiced doing what I wanted to do (alternating thumb picking pattern) over and over again, first at a very slow rate, then gradually faster. Finally I was able to throw away my crutch (metaphorically speaking) and keep a rhythm without the metronome. I hope we can exchange more pleasant postings in the future. I apologize for the part I played in getting us off on a bad foot.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Bert Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM I'm probably the last person to advise you because my timing is pitiful. However, it was even worse once. Then I started Square Dancing. After some years of that I was able to at least recognize 4/4. So get out there and dance until your body feels the rhythm. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: kendall Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:23 PM I have a cousin who has been playing guitar for about 50 years. He still plays in one time, sings in another and taps his foot in another. For the life of me, I cant figure out how he does it. We have tried everything, but, he really is hopeless. I have always thought that if you can walk, you can keep time, but, come to think of it, he walks funny too... |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: sophocleese Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:52 PM Bert's suggestion of dancing is a very good one. When I am learning a new song I often dance around while singing to keep myself in time. My brother is a latin percussionist and he found dancing very useful as well. One other thing I heard someone say one time was that learning to play the bodhran meant that when they went back to trying guitar they found the strumming an awful lot easier. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:59 PM Dear Jo King, I notice you are a new member, did you know someone had joked recently here about taking out a Mudcat membership with the name Jo King (JoKing, Joking, get it?)? I hope your name will not get too confused with that. I am sure a new member like yourself would appreciate being taken seriously. Anyway welcome to the Mudcat. There is a thread running usually where newcomers often introduce themselves-- how they found Mudcat, what they play, what music they like, how they picked their name, sometimes... I hope to see you there. BTW, if Mousethief had wanted to make a joke at your expense, it would have been only in fun, and it would probably have been over spelling, not a real music question. ("Rhythmically") Oh he can joke a little too rough sometimes, but he doesn't fool around when it comes to music. Most of us don't. I think you might want to exchange some PMs with him to get that little miusunderstanding cleared up. Up to you of course! Or... were you joking about being offended? These things can be so confusing! I dunno! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Matt_R Date: 14 Nov 00 - 03:11 PM Here's how I learned about timing. I just played. And listened to a lot of music, and emulated it. Oh, and classical guitar applied music courses, music theory, and composition classes work to! Nothing gives you a better feel for rhythm than learning to notate music, especially your own. Also, using ABC format to notate music, especially by ear and not from sheet music, will help tremendously. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Jo King Date: 14 Nov 00 - 03:22 PM Does anyone know the proper way to spell schmuck? Hypersensitive I guess. No real excuse for that mistaken assumtion. I'll go from there on a PM. As for the responses thus far, thanks and keep them coming. Take care, Jo |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM The sound of a metronome is just irritating, dancing around sounds much more fun |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,Marcus Campus Bellorum Date: 14 Nov 00 - 05:56 PM Any constant time reference is useful. But only as a reference. Playing to a metronome or a sequencer does not make playing mechanical and cold. It simply gives you a reference of solid predictable time. When playing in a group (especially a new one) solid predictable grooves and feels are very useful. They allow the audience to concentrate on the music and not be distracted by the "blurred" grooves. Get a sequencer is metronomes are boring but do practice for a large proportion of your time using a good solid reference (ie: a machine not a human). I do not mean that in any negative sense. It is simply the case that people feel and interpret tempo. Even the most even of players. When practicing you want to develop an appreciation of constant time. Then, when performing you will be conscious of speed changes (both up and down) and this consciousness empowers you to do something about it or let it happen. If you are not conscious of speed, groove and feel (to a high degree) you have less control of your music and your ability to express yourself in a concise and clear manner is reduced. Some say instinct and inspiration are the key to expression. They are definitely part of it but the conscious mind is also necessary. Especially in group. Lets face it. Without conscious rational thought we would not have the instruments, the musical structure, and the audiences and venues and recording systems that music relies on. As they say it is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Use a drum machine, a metronome, a sequencer as a tool to show you what is a constant rhythm. Work on cross rhythms against the beats in the machine. Work on syncopating the rhythms. Make up exercises for yourself so that you do not practice what you already know. Polyrhythms too are very useful rhythmic devices. Rhythm is a universe of technique. Start now.
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: kendall Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:04 PM Do you know what "schmuck" means? |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Jim the Bart Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM Jo King - Welcome aboard. I wasn't sure from your initial post if your request was about rhythm patterns or timing problems. Timing problems can be helped by the use of metronomes, but I find the "rhythm box" solution easier to take. A lot of electronic keyboards have little rhythm generators that can be use to establish a beat that you can play to. You punch the "bossa nova" button and an easy going latin groove is laid down which you can play against. This can help both timing and rhythm pattern problems. Some folks have problems finding a comfortable strumming or picking pattern to fit a song or song type. My suggestion about that is to listen to recordings of songs that have a similar rhythm, by good guitarists, and imitate what you hear. Don't worry about following chord patterns, necessarily. You want to listen for up strokes and down strokes (which can be tricky to discern), trying to make what you're doing sound "just like the record". Richie Havens is as strong a strummer as you are likely to find. Pickers like Doc Watson or Tony Rice are great for individual note stuff. It all rests on what you want to sound like; different strokes for different folks really does apply here. I'm sure that there must be some video or audio tapes out there that you can refer to. And there is always the "how did you do that approach", when you see someone who played the way you like. Wish I could be more helpful. A lot of practice (woodshedding) goes in to playing good rhythm guitar. It is a much undervalues art. Good luck Bart |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Helen Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:34 PM Hi Jo, I understood your question to be about finding interesting rhythm patterns and not about how to keep time with the rhythm. I can relate to your request and I'm hoping that other people here might answer your original request for useful books, videos CD's/books etc. In the meantime, have you investigated your local music store to see if they have any books for drummers and percussionists which show the different rhythms for different styles of music, samba, mambo, salsa, rock, swing, etc? Another easily accessible alternative is to search on the 'Net for midi files for various kinds of music, e.g your search term could be "midi mambo" or "midi flamenco" etc and you will probably be surprised at what you find. There are millions of music lovers out there in cyberland and some of them have websites with their favourite types of music and lots of midis of that type. Then, download the midis you like, load it into a music notation programme like Noteworthy (free demo version available for download on the 'Net, which allows printing) and look at the different staff lines, find the rhythm lines, separate them out from the others, listen to them separately, follow along with them, etc. It's a neat & easy way of finding out what other musicians are doing with the rhythm part of tunes. As to mousethief, have a look at some of his other postings by clicking on the hyperlink at the beginning of his posting here. You'll find out he's just a pussycat really (sorry Alex/mt, is that a tasteless analogy (grin) but I think you were coming across a little tersely with your one word piece of advice - easy to misinterpret it as being loaded with something negative because of the sparseness of your response). What I mean is: he's really quite a tasty morsel of Mudcattery when you get to know him better. Now where are my two cats when I need them? (wicked grin) Helen |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: KT Date: 14 Nov 00 - 09:50 PM Hi Jo....Lots of great suggestions up there.....One more suggestion....play with other folks sometimes. If you spend time playing/practicing with others, it will help you to develop a better sense of the rhythm. As far as Mousethief's one word answer, I'm sure he didn't mean it the way you took it. I think that was a sincere recommendation on his part. There was a recent thread that referenced metronomes. I for one, am struggling to use one as I learn to play the piano. The darn thing doesn't work right! First it speeds up, then it slows down, then it speeds up, then it slo.....(BG) Happy practicing! KT
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,mcb Date: 15 Nov 00 - 12:04 AM What's with the Schuck stuff????
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Ritchie Date: 15 Nov 00 - 07:21 AM Hey, what about me ? I've got great timing but can't play. Ritchie |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,khandu Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM Hello, Jo I want to welcome you here. I have been here a relatively short time, and it took me a little while to get acclimated here. I still get a bit off-balance from time to time. Sometimes it is difficult to interpret what some one has written. A few times I was mildly insulted, but as I became more familiar with some of the ones here, I realized that they were not being insulting, they were just being themelves. (Watch out for Spaw, though, he will jack with your head.) :) Sounds like good advice is coming your way. I agree with all that has been said. Kendall, your cousin is an enigma. How can he do that! I am sure you saw Steve Martin dancing out of time to the music on "The Jerk". That either takes a lot of talent or a complete lack of musicality to do that. I was very impressed. What you said about your cousin reminded me of that. khandu |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,Jo King Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:59 AM Great feedback so far. Guest MCB - I agree that the dependable timing helps a ton in practice. I was not familiar with the term "cross rhythms" - is it the same as syncopation? Also can someone clarify the term "polyrhythm". I listen to a lot of different music, and am likely well aquainted with the spirit of these terms, but if I plead complete ignorance here it may result in more clarity in the long run. Bart - The "rhythm box" approach sounds interesting, I have not had one at my disposal to try. Do you know of any price concious items on the market? As for playing along with music, I do this at times by forgetting chords and just playing on totally muted strings. "Chunka-chick" The up and down stroke recognition is pretty well a mystery to me. Hellen - You were quite right, I was inquiring about "rhythm patterns". I didn't know what to call it. Now I do. Your computer suggestions are interesting and I will hopefully be able to use them down the road, but for now my computer struggles with processing text. My struggle is that as I venture away from fairly simple rhythm patterns, they become more confused instead of more complex. As for Mousethief - we have been in touch via PMs and cleared up the confusion ... my confusion and hopefully mended that bridge. In my youth I occassionally would wake up "the next day" regretting the some of the night's activities. That is how I feel now. This leads one to conclude that the Mudcat is intoxicating. Thanks for all the info, and keep it coming. Take care. Jo |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Nov 00 - 11:22 AM Jo- Take the simple patterns and then subdivide them. To hear how this can work, listen to good baroque music-- the math is all in there, to hear, and soak up thourhg your skin-- fingers on speakers to soak it up. You will hear how a 4/4 piece divides into smaller and smaller intervals. The otyher patterns you want will be there or be implied there also-- the pulse of the somple pattern you can handle hnpow is th skeleton on which the rest of the rhtymic embellishments hang. Vocalization also works--
BOP. (pause) BOP. (pause) BOP. (pause) BOP. ~Susan
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM (DOUBLE POST TO FIX SPELLING, SORRY) Jo- Take the simple patterns and then subdivide them. To hear how this can work, listen to good baroque music-- the math is all in there, to hear, and soak up through your skin-- fingers on speakers to soak it up. You will hear how a 4/4 piece divides into smaller and smaller intervals. The other patterns you want will be there or be implied there also-- the pulse of the simple pattern you can handle now is the skeleton on which the rest of the rhtymic embellishments hang. Vocalization also works--
BOP. (pause) BOP. (pause) BOP. (pause) BOP. ~Susan
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Anglo Date: 15 Nov 00 - 12:09 PM Not too long ago Bob Brozman did a Homespun Tapes video on rhythm, primarily aimed at the guitarist, but including general concepts as well. Using triplets, playing 2 against 3, 3 against 4, "shuffle" as opposed to "straight" tempo, ideas like that. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 15 Nov 00 - 04:03 PM I belong to a little group of players who are middling-good to inexpert. New people find it very helpful to look at the song and listen while others play it. There's a feedback mechanism between your eyes and ears which helps a lot. So if you can find even one trained person who is willing to play some tunes with you and coach you. It really helps. (By trained, I mean someone who plays an instrument well, for example, someone who was in a high-school orchestra.) For short notes, we rely lot on a method of counting which many piano teachers use for their students. For example, 8 - eighth notes (common in a reel) are "henrietta-henrietta." Use your metronome and make sure that the "hen" and then the "et" are said on a click. If the measure has a G chord and a D chord in it, say G-ri-ett-a, D-ri-et-ta, as you hit the G and D chords. A 6/8 song (jig) goes 1-lo-lly, 2-lo-lly. Or say to yourself, G-lo-lly, D-lolly. A measure in 3/4 is "wonderful." Use your metronome and make sure you are saying one syllable per click. Oftentimes a waltz has an energetic section where each measure is full of eighth notes. Then we say "henrietta evans." It just seems to come easier than 1+2+3+. After all, the speech centers in our brains get much more practice in life than our counting centers. We have a member who is an incredible guitarist, yet she was entirely self-taught. When she first came, she couldn't play along because she had no idea where we were in the music. So we taught her this system, and she was in the groove almost immediately. She is still with us after six or seven years. Hope this helps. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: kendall Date: 15 Nov 00 - 04:11 PM I guess we really do learn something every day. I would have doubted that one could "Learn" rhythm. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: mousethief Date: 15 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM Kendall, you aren't born knowing it, so I must presume it can be learnt. Otherwise why all that "ta, ta, tee-tee, ta" nonsense in 3rd grade music class? Praise, I can't believe you reposted just to fix a few spelling errors, and then left "rhythmic" misspelled. Not to mention "Beatle." Leeneia: your polysyllabic words make a lot of sense for conveying the sub-beat niceties. Very helpful post! There's nothing like playing with somebody else to show the problems with one's own rhythmic sense. Helen: you keep those cats away from me. Mice have rights too, you know! Thanks everybody who said nice things about me. My propaganda and subterfuge campaign has obviously paid off.
Getting nervous about my gig tomorrow night, |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Nov 00 - 07:20 PM Thanks, mousethief! Hey!! I think we ARE born with rhythm, but it can get taught out of us by the methods you describe! Watch someone who says they have no rhythm, tapping their toes, or speaking their language. There will be rhythm to it, as long as they are not thinking about how much they lack it. If you put a bell strap on their feet, boom! Rhythm section! (Try it!) buh-BOPP! Oh yes-- and put the instrument down, practice strum patterns on a washboard. Really. With fingerpicks and thumbpick on. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Helen Date: 15 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM I used to go to a beginner's music session for years, and one guitarist/singer called himself a three-chord-wonder but it was never really obvious that he used limited chords because the rhythms he used were so interesting and varied. Because I was only just starting to play Celtic harp and I could recognise guitar chords I used to sit opposite him and play along by playing the same chords he played. I also, without being consciously aware of it, picked up the rhythms he was using. So, speaking from experience, I found that playing along with and watching someone else using interesting rhythms is a really good way to learn - for me anyway. Alex, my cats only want to have some fun - you wouldn't deny them (and me) a little harmless(?) fun would you? (WWL -> wicked witchy laugh) Helen |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,Joerg Date: 15 Nov 00 - 10:14 PM Joerg To me there are two different problems with rhythm. One is going slower, faster, slower and so on. The second one is the problem of doing things like "Boom-uh-da-chicka-chicka" and so on the right way i.e. problems related with concepts like 'swing' or 'drive' (don't ask me to really explain what that is). I have not yet figured out what problem you have, Jo, but I think that pointing out that difference may be helpful in some way. Imagining that both of those problems can be solved by using a metronome is REALLY difficult to me. To learn what e.g. 'swing' is does not really require to play your music exactly even-spaced as a metronome wants to force you to, so it will only confuse you. But once you have learned to perform the rhythm you will easily be able to adapt to a metronome if required. Telling you that the only way is 'feeling' would be too abstract, although it's true. Whenever you hear a song with some rhythm you like try to transform that rhythm in some kind of physical motion, not dancing, just some kind of swaying, even if you just do it in your imagination. Later when you want to reproduce that rhythm, try to get into that physical motion first and then start to play the song. Look at professional musicians: they're all moving (except of those who are trained to obey conductors, but in this case the conductor must move instead :-> ). Hehe - seems like someone must move. If you're alone it's up to you. kendall - I remember playing 'Me & Bobby McGee' once, and there was a harmonica player, quite good, but something was wrong, something was wrong... Took me several minutes to find out that he was playing the same song, correctly and with great feeling but exactly AT HALF SPEED. Yes, there are people who can do things like these, but I'll never be able to figure out how. Joerg |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Rick Fielding Date: 15 Nov 00 - 11:35 PM Jo. Sorry I didn't see this earlier. Seems like you're getting some good advice. I suffer (!?) from a real oddball situation. I've been making my living at music for thirty years, have really good rhythm.....and simply CAN'T DANCE at all! When it's goin' from my heart to my hands...no problem, but when it gets to my feet...I feel like an arthritic hippo! Whenever I'm teaching someone who wants to improve their rhythm I focus on doing a very prominent ON beat (BOOM-chuck). Sorta like over-emphasizing the first beat. Then we just play like that for a few minutes. Tends to straighten out wonky timing. Rick
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 16 Nov 00 - 10:58 AM Some of you have got rhythm and counting mixed up. Almost all of us have an innate sense of a steady beat. That's different from knowing when to change chords in a complicated-looking piece of music. And considering the number of successful musicians who have been taught that way, I don't think it is justified to brand Orff's ta, tee method as "nonsense." |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: mousethief Date: 16 Nov 00 - 12:38 PM Praise, not fair, posting a whole post with no misspellings at all. How am I supposed to sharpen my claws? Helen, it's the "harmless" part that I might not define quite the same way you do. I didn't mean harmless to the cats, but harmless to the mouse. This reminds me of the wonderful line from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, when "our heroes" are suddenly confronted with the Ravenous Bug-Bladder Beast of Traal (actually an identical copy thereof but let's not quibble). Arthur says, "Is it safe?" and Ford says, "Oh yes, it's perfectly safe. It's we who are in trouble!" Good points all about the difference between slowing down adn speeding up (which is what I was chiefly addressing) and learning to do complicated rhythms. May I suggest you get a pair of drumsticks, a practice pad (heavy piece of rubber to drum on) and a copy of the book, "Stick Control"? Then with your metronome work through the exercises at varying speeds. It starts really easy (R-L-R-L) and eventually gets very complicated. I gained a little ability to keep complicated rhythms (much of what little ability I have, anyway) by this method. Great thread!
O..O Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: MK Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:14 PM There is sometimes a line drawn between a strict, regemented rhythm by..say..a drum machine, juxtaposed with the ability of music to "breathe" (meaning slight fluctuations in tempo) as adrenaline or energy kicks in during a performance. Both have merits and drawbacks. For instance, I spent many years in bands, (duos and trios mostly) where we used a drum machine for almost everything performed. It has gotten to the point with me now, where my sense of time is rather acute and I know when practising or playing by myself, if the tempos are solid...But, when I play with others acoustically I can instinctively feel if the timing of the other player(s) is/are dragging or speeding up. The question then arises: Do you point it out to the person(s) in question? I think part of the answer is that if this person strives for perfection or, authenticity in their playing (and you're sure it won't be taken as a "personal attack") then tell them in a diplomatic way, but be very sure of it and have a reference tool (ie: sequencer of drum machine handy) to demonstrate it to them. Chances are they'll thank you for it and be more focussed on it in the future. If they're still finding their way and engaged in an ongoing struggle with not only tempo but in playing correctly, then cut them some slack and allow them to focus on the music. The tempo situtation can be addressed at a later period in time. (In other words let them learn to drive before showing them how to use the "cruise control".) In a group situation where someone is dragging down the tempo (or speeding it up) it usually happens because the person is focussing more on themselves and what they're doing and as a result subconciously blocking out the other players, rather than thinking of themselves as part of a bigger puzzle or one cog within the wheel. If you are able to isolate what you are playing "with 1 ear" and with the other, really listen to the pulse or groove of the other musicians, chances are your timing will be just fine...and it won't be something you need to worry about or think about it. A good, rock solid groove is a good thing for certain types of music. For others, (i.e. upbeat bluegrass) a little tempo fluctuation or "breathing" is equally good, as it energizes the music. I can't recall ever hearing a recorded or live version of Orange Blossum Special that didn't speed up a little bit compared to the count-in tempo of the song. Then again, maybe this particular tune is supposed to speed up, because a locomotive is being emulated. Hmmmmm.... |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Helen Date: 16 Nov 00 - 07:16 PM Sincere apologies, mousethief. I was only teasing, totally tongue-in-cheek. I love cats and mice equally, and wouldn't like to harm either species. Michael K. Intersting points about timing. I don't have time to elaborate now but I'll get back here tonight or tomorrow and tell you about a really interesting tv show called "What is Music" which investigated what makes some musicians play more artistically than others. One of the aspects was stretching the timing to relate to feeling. I know that that doesn't work when everyone in a band or session group are trying to play together, but when there is a soloist who is interpreting the music and the rest of the musicians are supporting that soloist's interpretation then it is a different story. More later Helen |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: MK Date: 16 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM Yes Helen, and the question is when THAT musician who's soloing speeds up (or slows down) what do you do? Do you try and "fight" him/her? or do you follow them no matter what? The latter of course if you're in a live situation. If you don't then everything can collapse and everyone on stage will look like idiots. There is a Jerry Douglas album (very well-known session dobro player) where they do a tune called "Monroe's Hornpipe" and the tune moves along at a nice clip, with the tempo nice and even, as the various instrumentalists in the band all take their turns soloing, and then finally Jerry takes his. In the midst of his fanciness, from the get-go he speeds up like crazy, and the rest of the band just matches him. Now, if I'd have been the producer of that album, I wouldn't have let that take make it onto the album. I would have had them redo it and told Jerry to keep it steady when he comes in. But, perhaps the actual producer of the album (maybe even Jerry himself) liked the energy and kept it for that reason. You can have both - energy and a solid tempo, but of course there are always exceptions for whatever the reasons. My regemented ears happen to prefer a consistent solid backbone holding things down, unless we're talking avante guard or fusion jazz, with all sorts of polyrhythmic elements playing off of each other. Then there's Willie Nelson's band trying to follow Willie....but I think this has already been covered in a fairly recent thread. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: MK Date: 16 Nov 00 - 07:57 PM Speaking of energy and solid tempo, there is the fastest recorded version I've ever heard of Bill Monroe's "Rawhide" done by Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder on his recently released album entitled "Bluegrass Rules" - a return to his bluegrass roots after a 15 year absence while pursuing country music. |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Gypsy Date: 16 Nov 00 - 11:22 PM Try counting out loud...more portable than a metronome. Also, play with people who have fabulous timing, and ride on what they are doing...fastest, quickest, easiest. Still use my metronome in certain cases, tho |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Helen Date: 17 Nov 00 - 05:37 AM Michael K, In the tv show they are mostly referring to classical music, where there is a conductor regulating the whole show. It can also refer to a band which has worked out a way of playing a piece which works for them and everyone knows that it will happen in certain way because they have specifically rehearsed it that way - no surprises for anyone particpating. As I said, this doesn't work for impromptu sessions or bands if everyone isn't in agreement *and committed to* stretching the timing in a specified way. This might happen if there is a really charismatic performer, someone who everyone watches and listens to, even while playing themselves. When my sister and I play music together - she plays flute and I accompany her on the Celtic harp - she usually leads and I do my best to fit in with her interpretation of the music. In the majority of pieces the timing is regular, with no self-imposed stretching, pausing, etc, but in some tunes, e.g. Carrickfergus, I just go with her timing because it suits being stretched and compressed in an expressive way. If I listen to the radio at all it is usually the alternative rock/modern station here in Oz, called Triple-J. There are often techno or dance music pieces being aired, and the majority of these use a drum machine or other artificially produced rhythm patterns. The timing is strict and regulated, and I find it very difficult to listen to most of these pieces of music because that special something injected in via human expression has been cauterised out of it. There are other techno-based musicians who seem to understand that the mechanical music production tools have to follow human expression and not vice versa. The percussionists-turned-techno-composers who make up the group Leftfield, are an excellent example of this. All of this is my opinion only, and I'm not trying to start a fight here. It comes down to personal taste in music. The tv show just helped me to see how music works for humans. Helen |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 17 Nov 00 - 09:30 AM I have a terrible sense of Rhythm - Being a catholic with 5 kids probably proves that;-) Seriously - The only way I can ensure I am playing in correct time is to play along in sessions. Do it long enough and it will stick. Sez me who never practises what he preaches!!! BTW - Our local (Manchester, UK) tram service is called the Metro - When I am riding it do I become.... Dave the MetroGnome? |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Bert Date: 17 Nov 00 - 09:42 AM I think it should be Dave the GROAN for that one!!! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Apr 01 - 12:44 AM Refresh! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: gnu Date: 06 Apr 01 - 07:42 AM WYSIWYG.... What's the title of that Irish song you posted ? |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: John P Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:18 AM Jo King, Cross rhythm is sort of the same as syncopation. I define it as any rhythmic pattern where the accents are not always falling on the main beats of the measure. Polyrhythm gets used in a couple of ways: the dictionary definition is two contrasting rhythms being played against each other. Lots of folk musicians use the term to describe time signatures that are not the "normal" ones like 3/4, 4/4, and 6/8. You can hear a lot of 5/8, 7/8, and 11/8 in Bulgarian music and elsewhere. You might be able to get some more specific advice if you told us which sorts of music you are interested in learing the rhythmic patterns for. I always advise people that are trying to learn rhythms to drum along with the type of music they want to learn. You can drum along by beating on your legs with you hands -- no investment and no learning curve. Learn to play the rhythms while you don't have your guitar in your hands -- do one thing at a time. If you can get your body to know the patterns, when you pick up the guitar, your body will still know the patterns and will take over your strumming hand. John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Luke Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:22 AM I believe metronomes are great and drumsticks and all the other items mentioned above are wonderful tools in the quest for good musical time. However if one waits for the sticks and the metronomes there is so much time wasted when you can learn and play. Music is all around us especially rhythm. When your turning in heavy traffic the blinker sends out a strong rhythm. If i've had too much coffee every sound is an intro to some other lick which cascades into rhythm. When you listen to music. Pick a part of the music playing and let your finger tap along. Become that part. It doesn't take long to start to understand the way the various parts of the band make the whole thing swing. When you've let yourself be a part of the music you inherantly will allow it to cross over into your own playing. If you can't dance. Go to a dance and feel the room shake with the beat. then listen to the music and with your finger or hand pat the various notes being played as they go flying by and you will be greatly guided. Playing for dancing is the greatest way to be totally emersed in rhythm. I don't mean playing for a big dance either. I mean just playing for one couple to dance or one person. It's good because what we want here is to feel it. People need other people to feel. When the dance relies on you you must provide. It's your obligation one human to another. It feels so good to be wallering around in all that time together. Don't think perfection, think enjoyment. It won't be long before your are moving the dancers the way you want to and they will smile and so will you. Luke |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:37 AM Luke, Playing for dancing is the greatest way to be totally emersed in rhythm. I don't mean playing for a big dance either. I mean just playing for one couple to dance or one person. It's good because what we want here is to feel it. People need other people to feel. When the dance relies on you you must provide. It's your obligation one human to another. It feels so good to be wallering around in all that time together. Don't think perfection, think enjoyment. It won't be long before your are moving the dancers the way you want to and they will smile and so will you. I love that. I love that! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: RichM Date: 07 Apr 01 - 11:39 AM WYSIWYG, you're so right! Playing for dancing can entwine your playing rythmn with that of the dancers---your fingers and their feet can become almost telepathically connected... It's a wonderful give and take for me when I play... |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Apr 01 - 01:44 PM Well, I was appreciating it as one of the (former) dancers, and as a rhythm junkie. I can't say I have ever had the pleasure myself of playing for dancers. But I get a similar thrill out of providing the foundation for Hardi when he gets going on a fiddle tune, and out of getting to lay back and accompany the congregation when they take hold of a hymn that's especially zippy. And when we jam with our bods and especially now that we are exploring bluegrass... And I was appreciating the turn of phrase Luke used, as well as a heart that feels and thinks like that... I hope we can approximate that sense when we jam at our Gathering, and now, dang! I'll have to see about how autoharp (or washboard) could do for dancing! Sheesh! Just when I think I have run out of things to do with the dang things! And I'll have to break out (FIND!!) the Therapeutic Claves before the Gathering too... they bounce in the nicest sort of dotted triplets... oh yes, dotted triplets... don't get me started! *G* ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: vindelis Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:38 PM Metronomes at present are the bain of my life. keep in time yes, but relax and let the music flow. There is nothing worse, than someone anouncing: "'Wild Rover'" or whatever, followed by: "(That's in Waltz time, now 1,2 3, 1,2,3)" and sticking to it, RIGIDLY. AGH! |
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Subject: RE: Help for rhythmicly challenged? From: Luke Date: 08 Apr 01 - 02:05 PM The dance camps I have been going to are frequented by folks who would dance to just about any two sounds back to back. there is a famous dance caller by the name of Fred Park who plays and calls dances with only himself playing wash board. They are great dances cuz he knows how to drive the dance so well. Never underestimate the power of feet tapping. It is an infectious music which is sometimes accompanied by other instruments. Luke
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