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Opinion needed: Union Uselessness?
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Subject: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Patrish(inactive) Date: 06 Dec 00 - 10:50 AM My Husband has just handed in his resignation for a teaching job in a school where he has worked for 23 years, because the current head does not like him.......................... I have just spoken to his union rep who has told me that some things in life are unfair, and what has happened to my husband "is unfair" If he had fought his case he would have won, BUT would not have any employment???? If he goes quietly into this goodnight - he gets a job at half the salery and keeps his pension. BELIEVE ME WHEN I TELL YOU HE DOES NOT DESERVE THIS. I have to go to his leaving do at school and smile and be "nice" to the bastard that stitched him up. Any ideas - please, .......pretty please (roll on 2001) |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Rick Fielding Date: 06 Dec 00 - 12:27 PM Sorry to hear that Patrish. Your husband chose to hand in his resignation, but why do you CHOOSE to be nice to people you don't like. I'd be tempted to whisper "fucking asshole" just audible enough to be heard by the intended, after a cheery "hello, lovely evening insn't it"? Don't mean to be flippant..I know this hurts. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Irish sergeant Date: 06 Dec 00 - 12:33 PM Patrish: most of my ideas center around things like making the "Bastard who did this' piss blue (Let me know if you're interested.) Ok, to more practical ideas, get a lawyer! There is no-one in this world more able to dfeal with your situation that a lawyer. I cannot believe that even if he wins his case that he would be out of a job. Where are you located? My advice: get a good lawyer and let the bastard be nailed to the wall. Or more in my usual vein, you could give him a batch of brownies copiously flavored with ex-lax. Offer some to the union rep too. He obviously isn't doing his job! Yes, life is unfair but his job as union representative is to do his utmost to mitigate those circumstances. So first- have your husband file a grievance and hire a lawyer. second withdraw the resignation if that is possible. third he should be talking to the current headmaster's supervisor about this whole mess. Twenty-three years should count for more that a kick in the ass and Katy bar the door! Let me know how things come out. and Hey it makes a great H.I. story (human interest)or editorial but talk to the lawyer befroe you go that route. The press is an option however. I will offer a prayer things work out and let me know. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: DonMeixner Date: 06 Dec 00 - 12:45 PM Patrish Forced out after 23 years sounds like forced early retirement without the benefits. The school makes out here quite well financially. Those additional two years do a lot for the employees retirement package. I suppose the choice was your husbands but I do know the hell a supervisor can generate if he/she doesn't like you. AS to the union. I have belonged to 3 unions in my life, never by choice, and in each case they took my dues and solidarity was something for the union management to enjoy. Remember what Tom Paxton said in "I Believe, I do" "The labor leader told his membership that his limosinen was no extravagance at all and His cocktail parties in Miami Beach merely helped him roll the union on." Just before the supervisor has to make his good bye and godbless remarks at the dooo, besure a spill a cup of hot, sugary tea on his crotch. If he is wearing tan dockers the appearance will only add to the physical discomfort. Don |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Bert Date: 06 Dec 00 - 12:50 PM I'm with Irish Sergeant on this one. Don't let 'em get away with it. Tell EVERYONE you know and even people you don't know. We're all one youre side luv. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Morticia Date: 06 Dec 00 - 12:51 PM Patrish, I find it hard to believe nothing can be done and I think Neil's idea about veiled hints to go to the press is a good one, so is 'going sick' with stress caused by said headteacher which could net the family 250 thousand by the stories in yesterdays press and early retirement due to ill health more lucrative and not so prejudicial....is it too late to back peddle and think a bit? |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: okthen Date: 06 Dec 00 - 01:53 PM Ever heard of constructive dissmissal? I don't know if it applies in your case, and if the union are not up to scratch then the CAB should be. My dad was in education and retired, because of a stroke, aged 63,which meant he got a third of the pension he should have. I sincerely wish you the best in this. cheers bill |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: canoer Date: 06 Dec 00 - 02:10 PM Dear Patrish,
The info you've given is too incomplete for anyone to give good advice yet. So much depends on the particular circumstances, on the exact wording of the union contract, even on the applicable state & federal laws.
First and foremost: document absolutely everything possible, beginning with the situation BEFORE the new head came in, and then all incidents AFTER, including as close as possible dates, and witnesses, and gist of all conversations as accurately as possible. No one will look closely at a case without such documentation.
Next: There are higher levels of union officials. Go thru the union's "chain of command." Go quickly. And never believe their "I'll get back to you." You must bug them. Give each chain level ONE chance, and then immediately go to the next level.
Next (actually, simultaneously): Talk to every single fellow teacher about the situation and assess what, if any, collective action might be taken on your husband's behalf. Group pressure can be highly effective (the real meaning of a union). Perhaps signatures on statements, perhaps petitions to a dean, perhaps informational picket lines in strategic places – be inventive, if there's support. A day's strike in sympathy -- who knows? This stuff is a long shot but also your very best hope if it can be put into gear.
Next (actually, simultaneously): Find out if any other teachers can recommend a labor lawyer that has experience in these type of academic cases. Run don't walk, WITH your documentation, to see him/her. If nothing else call your local AFL-CIO (are you in the States?) council and ask for a recommendation.
Finally, you may have an option to sue the union for nonrepresentation if they have made no effort on a member's behalf (this is different from making a losing effort). Ask the lawyer.
Welcome to email me if you wish, fastcanoes@aol.com.
Best of luck. Above all remember, you will get nothing unless you pursue relentlessly.
--The canoer |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Dec 00 - 02:32 PM Basic rule in life, if the first answer you get isn't the one that you like, try for another.
There are situations where there is nothing you can do to fight an injustice that isn't going to make it worse. But I'd need a lot more proof that that is the case in any situation than just a bald assertion by a union rep. I've been a union rep, and known lots of them, and some are bloody useless, and some are trying to keep sweet with the management so they can slide on over. Even when you lose in the end, you don't cave in while you have any alternative.
It sounds like constructive dismissal to me, and it sounds like a situation where the union should be fighting hard. And it sounds like a situation where the other teachers and the students and the parents ought to kicking up hell.
But it sounds like a case of your husband has decided that it's not worth fighting it, and I can understand that. In that case he should be exploring the possibility of getting early retirement, because it's not going to be much fun working on at the school. And once he's got that then there's no need to keep quiet about things.
All sounds like the making of a good finger-pointing song. Or maybe we should have a cursing thread. On the lines of a healing thread, but with a slightly different emphasis... |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Jon Freeman Date: 06 Dec 00 - 02:34 PM I am with Morticia, is it too late to reconsider the descision to resign. If he has a case that he will win, he should fight it and make as much noise about it as possible. I have know several people go down what I call the easy option in various situations and I do not believe that the person taking them every emerges with real credibility and the only winners are the bastards that force te situation. On a personal score, I resigned from Hotpoint as I was dissatisfied with my work load. I did not seek union assistance (I was in MSF) but when my manager said he realised there was a problem but he couldn't promise changes, I opted to leave quietly rather than fighting a battle that I could have won. My first loss was 6 months employment benifit as I left of my own free will and it amongst other things has not helped me in looking for employemnt. The fact that Hotpoint had a restructure a couple of months later and that my workload was split between 2 1/2 people is of course mere co-incidence and irrelevant to my situation. Staying within the family, I watched my dad grow more and more bitter and evetually take early retirement from his job in the local Coucil. He was probably the only person with a brain in that department and had been a very succesful building society branch manager who opted to move back to North Wales and chage careers rather than remain in the Tunbridge Wells rat race or take the promotion in London. He covered for his bosses a lot, got some organisation into the department and made many desicisions that his bosses were to scared to make but when it came to a job evalation, it turned out that he was doing nothing and his brain dead superiors got the credit. He chose not to fight and as a result justice was never done and there are still people enjoying the credit for his ability and efforts. Another case I can think of is a friend who pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice in a case of a young child getting beaten. I am convinced he was innocent but he followed the lawyers advice which was along the lines of "if you plead guilty you will be fined but if you fight and lose, you will go to jail" so rather than take the gamble, he pleaded guilty and now has this on his record. I guess my message is if you are in the right, always fight or the bastards will win and presumably continue to walk all over others. They need exposing. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 06 Dec 00 - 02:49 PM I am basically seconding the advice from the canoer--there are laws, contracts, and tons of legal precedents to protect your husband's job, and, especially and, his pension, etc. But you don't really give enough information for anyone to be able to know how to help--And I am puzzled by the business about getting a job a half the salary--are they offering him another job? and why at half the salary? Teachers salaries are usually based on the degree that they have plus the number of years that they have been teaching(in order to save money, schools sometimes try to dump experienced teachers, who they often must pay twice as much as beginners, but not as often as you'd think, simply because the more experience the teachers have, the easier the school is to manage) For instance, the head you refer to, was that a department head, a principal, or some other official? Was this done officially, with disciplary meetings and formal charges, or was it just suggested to him that he should resign? Finally, the teacher's unions are usually pretty diligent about protecting their members, and it is takes a really strong case and a lot of effort for school systems to get rid of someone who has been teaching for 23 years. From what you say, your husband resigned under pressure, and, out of fear, chose not to excercise his legal rights--The union rep said what happened to him was unfair, but you leave us with the impression that the refused to stand up for him--is that true, or didn't he ask them fight for him? Don't give up on this, for any reason--I have a friend who was dismissed from a union position by a manager who had nothing but contempt for her and filed a legal action with the help of the union--she worked somewhere else for five years, but received all the wages she lost as part of the settlement, and she got her job back as well--by then, the person who fired her had been fired, and they welcomed her back with open arms--so hang in there!
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Dec 00 - 05:37 PM M. Ted and others....Case well put. Patrish, I don't know all the details and the "ifs' but I'd rescind the resignation NOW. From what you've said, you have a case. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Helen Date: 06 Dec 00 - 05:53 PM Hi Patrish, Please, please read the stuff on this website about workplace bullying. It sounds very much like bullying to me, from the little information you have given here. Tim Field shares his unique insight into workplace bullying, a cause of stress and ill health and the basis of harassment, discrimination, abuse and violence http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/ If it is bullying you need to be able to see clearly exactly what has been happening to your husband before you start working out strategies, but I think that the first thing your husband needs to do is take back his resignation (if at all possible) to give him time to consider his alternatives, and also so that he can register complaints with all the appropriate places, and register for stress leave under Worker's Compensation (or the equivalent in your country). I have been through a very heavy workplace bullying situation which only ended in June this year when I got railroaded out of the job through the boss's devious manipulations. It is insidious, traumatic, has terrible consequences for your health and self esteem as well as for future job seeking. But, you need to know how to deal with the sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, unethical behaviour in specific ways because in bullying cases the bully won't change by choice, you can only make a difference when the right strategies are used. Please, look at Tim Field's site. Especially the pages with the definition of a sociopath and the page about why a victim is chosen (for their positive, professional qualities). Helen |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Patrish(inactive) Date: 07 Dec 00 - 04:28 AM Thank you for your ideas and support. The union rep said to me that she had my husbands best interests at heart and this was the best deal that they could get. I think apathy rules in the school - morale is at an all time low, and people are looking after there own little empires. I spoke to someone at the school last night and she said that if she had been in my husbands position, that she could not have coped at all - everyone admires him for his fortitude and dignity. In my own mind I think I would have fought a bit more, but I realise how worn down by all this he is. He could have gone to an industrial tribunal for constructive dismissal, and if(not really a case of if) he had won, he would have a small payment of about 5000 pounds and get his job back at the school where the headmistress hates him and tries her best to make his life hell. My husband is now terrified that I am going to turn up to the Christmas "do" and throw my lunch at the offending appendage known as the head. It's strange because I hardly ever go anywhere with him, but I want to go to this last thing with him as a support sort of thing. I feel that his union have no power to help, his colleagues no solidarity, and I wish him well in his new job. I was tempted to go to the press, but that would have been for my sake, because I felt so angry. As I have said in other posts - I will leave karma to do its "thing" love patrish xxx |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 07 Dec 00 - 05:36 AM Patrish, I can't offer any advice on your behaviour at the "do" but I sympathise with your husband. I was being pressurised into taking early retirement at 55 to stop me applying for a job that was essentially the one I was doing but at a higher salary and with some added responsibilities. Everyone knew a younger colleague was earmarked for it although outsiders were interviewed. I went to see Personnel and told them the lump sum figure I would accept if they wanted me to go (about twice what they were offering) and if they didn't come up with that I expected no more pressure or I'd go to the union (I had been on the local Branch Commitee for about ten years)and claim constructive dismissal. They didn't give me the money, I didn't go, I applied for but didn't get the job. They appointed the person they all knew would get it. He is now my manager and feels very sheepish about it(as I used to be his boss though with my laissez faire management style he probably never noticed!). I keep my salary, have more time for professional work and virtually no managerial responsibilities which suits me, and fewer worries: I've no learned to think that if it isn't my rsponsibility and it's going down the pan, let 'em get on with it! And I'll retire on full pension at 60 thanks to AVC's and I won't let 'em give me a retirement do! I did get an award for 25 years service this year (a bottle of Sainsbury's £16.99 champagne) from the new Principal, who'd never met me before, but on my wife's strict instructions I stayed Shtum and made no speech. It isn't easy to sit it out but I always was one of the awkward brigade and enough of my colleagues were and are supportive to make the five years bearable, with the Mudcat to fill in the time between meetings. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:13 AM Patrish, I sypathise and hope you successfully resolve this. My Other Half left his job recently (okay, so he'd only been working for them 3 years, not 23, but the essence of the problem is similar) due to falling out of favour. I watched his self-confidence plummet as his ability and attitude were unreasonably questioned. I may be biased, but I and others he worked with, knew how good he was at his job - it was just that someone further up the scale resented him. There are a lot of people in this world who think that there isn't enough success to go around everyone and feel threatened when they see other people doing well, and that annoys me! Anyway, he left for a new job and was promoted after the first week. Since this new job started he's found out more about the extent the last place was going to keep him down. I thought the company was way out of line and I was seething for revenge, but he's fairminded and says it was for the best - he got out and he's happier and he's got a much better future ahead of him. I would say do fight it, especially after such a good length of employment, but the outcome may not be as bleak as it might seem. I wish you luck. |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Jon Freeman Date: 07 Dec 00 - 08:54 AM Patrish, it seems that you and your husband are on a fixed course and the choices have already been taken.I disagree with them but that is the route taken and that is not for me to argue against. I have had the privilege of meeting you and, FWI,think you are a wonderful person and I can only imagine that your husband who I have yet to meet but would love to, would strike me in a similar manner. Jon PS, do you want to employ a pie thrower? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Irish sergeant Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:20 AM Patrish; I do hope things work out for you. I have little to add to the thread or my original reply. Take heart and by the way, that ex-lax Idea is still waiting in the wings. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Patrish(inactive) Date: 07 Dec 00 - 10:00 AM What about a pie with ex-lax in it? I have taken heart, there is nothing that I can do to change the situation - make the best of it and carry on. On reflection I wish that I had been informed of the seriousness of the situation earlier. He could go to this new school and find it is a positive move. The only thing that annoys me is that this headmistress has got away with it. I don't feel right about that. I do know because of this she has lost the respect of all the staff - that is bound to have repercussions. Lots of fantasy revenge ideas have popped into my head and made me smile Super glue on the toilet seat Kippers on the engine of her car Prawns in the lining of her coat I am sure that things will work out - they usually do love Patrish xxxx |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Troll Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:47 AM Wait until a really warm day. Get a syringe (even a bulb one will do) Fill it with the cheapest, vilest perfume you can find. Stick the syringe through the rubber around a window and let fly. The heat will vaporize it and she will NEVER get rid of the odor. Kippers on the engine is good but an awful waste of good kippers. This works better 'cause it's inside the passenger compartment. I'll have a word with Skeptic. This is right up his alley. troll |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 07 Dec 00 - 11:50 AM Unconstructive but fun: Buy some cress seeds. Sprinkle "F**k You" on her office carpet (where it's not walked on too often). Water and leave. |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Jimmy C Date: 07 Dec 00 - 12:47 PM Patrish, I can sympathise with you as almost the same thing happened to me. I was 29 years with a government agency, having worked my way up from very junior positions to middle management. Of course management had no union, So when some cut backs came I was let go simply because my immediate boss did not like me, no other reason, of course these thing are very difficult to prove. They gave 2 choices - 1 - Stay for 6 months and try to get another position, if unsuccessful after the 6 months I would be terminated and have to wait 9 years for a pension.
2 - Take the early pension package (58% of my salary) and go within 7 days. I was so disgusted with them I signed for the package and walked out . A few weeks later they invited me to a function to be presented with a plaque for all my service. I told them what they could do with their plaque.
Since then ( 1996) I have found that I amm much happier, have no stress, less money, enjoying life better, have more time for my hobbies (music, history and genealogy).. Maybe this is an opporutunity for a life change. I sincerely hope so. Good Luck and God bless |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: canoer Date: 07 Dec 00 - 02:29 PM Dear Patrish,
I regret this has gone to closure already, but it clearly has. I hope you and yours can take some small comfort on seeing all the good company that he is in! The many others who have been railroaded, for good or ill, before him -- and the many others who will be in the future.
In so many cases, it's not the cream that rises to the top -- it's the scum.
Sympathies and best wishes to you both. I have no doubt that in a few years, it will seem far less crushing than it does today. Kindest regards -- the canoer. |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Catrin Date: 07 Dec 00 - 02:36 PM Oh Patrish - I am so sorry to hear your news. I haven't got any advice more worthwhile than that which has already been offered (love the watercress idea!) - I just wanted you to know that I had read this and am thinking of you. Take care and see you at the jug (if not before!) Hugs, Catrin |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Dec 00 - 03:23 PM Staying and fighting to stay in the job probably wouldn't havbe been a good option in this situation. But, as I understand it (though without having the details, and teh devil is in the details in these matters), the fact that he has resigned, as a result of what can reasonably described as constructive dismissal, and taken another lower paid job elsewhere, does not in fact necessarily rule out the option of going to an industrial tribunal.
It's very common in industrial tribunal cases for the person not to be reinstated in the previous job, and not to wish to be reinstated, even when a finding of unfair dismissal has been reached.
All these are factors which would be taken into account by the tribunal, and they might affect the level of any award made, if the tribunal agreed that it was unfair constructive dismissal. But if he were to go down that path, it would mean that the headmistress wouldn't have got away with it, and could well end up publicly criticised, with headlines in the local paper, and her bosses extremely angry at her.
And that would be a more effective of getting back at her than the fantasy revenge stuff. And it could even make the goodbye-do bearable, if you could both be thinking all the time "You think it's all over, but it ain't!" Maybe he could even announce what he was going to do in a farewell speech...
Advice on all this from the union, preferably from the union's legal section would be advisable. The local rep wouldn't necessarily be up on this stuff, and in any case there can be a tendency not to want to make waves.
Jimmy: "Of course management had no union". Well ,my experience is in local government, and probably in a different country. But I wouldn't think that is actually true.
Managers may not always join unions, and they may be more likely to scab on their colleagues if they get into trouble, but unions are there for any employee, and special unions for managers, or management sections in wider unions, do exist.P>
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: M. Ted (inactive) Date: 07 Dec 00 - 06:38 PM Patrish, Call me contentious, , or whatever, but consider McGrath's advice--I have found that if you feel anger about something like this that doesn't go away, and have fantasies about getting even, litigation is the best revenge. Make a few calls to file the appropriate complaints, get your ducks in a row, get introduced to a few people at the local papers and sketch out your story, and then, when you go to the "do", you can be pleasant for the whole evening, and on your departure, you may smile sweetly at the headmistress and say, "It's not over." |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Helen Date: 07 Dec 00 - 09:02 PM Patrish, You still need to look at that website I recommended - even more if you think you can walk away from it and it will all be over. The stress and trauma lingers on and the lack of closure can eat you both up inside. I promise you that if you read it many things will become clearer to you - including the options you have for action. Helen |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Bagpuss Date: 08 Dec 00 - 06:17 AM I would suggest talking to the CAB - they will get an employment lawyer to look at your case. I had to do this recently, and have found them extemely helpful. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Jon Freeman Date: 08 Dec 00 - 09:17 AM With regrard to Managers and Unions, times have changed since I left Hotpoint but here is how it worked for me: The shop floor at Hotpoint was "closed shop" and when I joined the company as a materials handler (labourer) for the production department, I had to join a union and like the majority became an AEU member (there were a handfull of Transport and General members). When I became a staff member (thier term), I joined part of the company that was not closed shop. I had to resign from the AEU (I can't remember the exact reasoning but I think it had something to do with a staff member and a shop floor member being on different sides of disciplinary procedures) and was given the choice of either joining a "management" union or donating a comparable sum from my wages to charity. I like most of the other staff members who weren't qualified engineers joined ASTMS which later merged with other unions to form MSF. MSF does represent Managers but I am not sure what the heads of departments such as mine,the Production Control Manager, or the Works manager did. I don't think that they belonged to any union. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Patrish(inactive) Date: 08 Dec 00 - 10:13 AM Helen, I have printed off a substantial amount from the site you mentioned. Alot of it rings true. Thanks. He is finding all the warm words of support and the upset of his colleagues very hard to take. He had tears in his eyes when he was talking to me last night about all the people who had come up to him at work to sympathise. He has also found out that someone else is being put through the same treatment as he is. I felt like jumping up and down and shouting "fight" but he has made his decision and is looking forward to working in a different school. I am going to the leaving do on the 21st, I have not been invited, but hey......what are they going to do about it. Patrish |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:09 PM Here is a link about constructive dismissal
And heree is one about employment law - the net is full of sources of information.
Don't let the whole thing get you both down. Getting into a less stressful work environment is the main thing - but if you and your husband decide that fighting, once he's out of the firing line, might help, there are still ways of seeking justice. And vengeance.
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Helen Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:20 PM Patrish, I chose to walk away and survive rather than trying to fight it any more. The stress was killing me (literally - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) and my health and sanity was more important than a Pyrrhic (spelling?) victory. But finding Tim Field's site finally made me realise what it had all really been about, and understanding of the reality was something I had been trying to find for a year with absolutely no luck. It had all been senseless psychological violence deliberately inflicted by a callous, cold hearted "manager" who fears that his own incompetence would be revealed. I'll PM you with the details of an e-mail list of people who have also been targeted by bullying. Lots of love, compassion and hope. Helen |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: GUEST,Big Mick Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:40 PM Don, I will get to you in a minute. Patrish, we are seeing more and more of this type of shite as the labour laws are progressively weakened to allow companies more "flexibility". Read that as the ability to pad the bottom line at the expense of the worker. Some horse's ass will get a bonus for cutting cost by getting rid of your husband, and others like him, that believed the company would live up to their promise. I am very sorry to hear how it went, and as a Union Rep/Activist of about a quarter century, I would have been happy to assist in any way I could have. Unfortunately it is already past the stage where that would be possible. DonMeixner, I have always respected most of what you contribute here. But I must tell you that I tire of the "broad brush" you paint men and women in my profession with. I am sorry you have had bad experiences with Unions. I will bet you have been to restaraunts you didn't like, did you quit eating out? I will bet there are politicians that got elected that you didn't like, did you quit voting? I will bet you have been to shows that were poorly run, did you quit using shows to sell your beautiful works? The point is that Unions and Union Reps come in all shapes and sizes. There are hundreds of thousands of Locals in the States alone. Some are more effective than others, and their effectiveness is related to the current state of labor law, among other things. But let me state one thing categorically. I have met hundreds of Union Rep's in my life. The poor one is the anomaly....to hear folks like you talk, the good one is the anomaly. The overwhelming majority are driven by ideology and work long hours fighting hard against this type of thing. Usually their devotion is at the expense of their families. I take umbrage at the notion that most, or even many, Rep's are driven by anything less than a desire to represent workers and their families in the best possible way. And by the way, the pay isn't as good as I could make in private industry as a Labor Relations Specialist. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Jimmy C Date: 08 Dec 00 - 07:41 PM McGrath, No management union where I was. We did have an association but we had no bargaining power whatsoever and the association was not recognized by senior management. I do know that when the union members went on a legimate strike, a few of us refused to do a union members job. We also brought them coffee etc to the picket line and walked with them during our lunch period. Maybe this ruffled a few feathers because, within a few weeks of my leaving, about 7 others got the same treatment, All had walked the line when the strike was on. Maybe that had something to do with it. Having come up through the ranks as I said, I would do it all again, gladly. I guess my measage for Patrish is it's not the end of the world. suck it in and go forward and good luck to you and your husband. |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Sorcha Date: 09 Dec 00 - 12:56 AM Thank you Mick. I remember walking picket with my Dad; I may have been 5 or 6. Being on strike in the late '50's was not a joke--wages were damn little, and thank all Gods there was a union stipend for striking workers.
Union was Communications Workers of America, company was Southwestern Bell Telephone. This was before the days of "ATT Amalgamated". CWA saw to it that I had shoes to wear.......even if they were not "fashionable" shoes. It's a pity that the Fraternal Order of Police is not a real union.......we could use some of that, here and now. |
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Subject: RE: Opinion needed: Union Uselessness? From: Terry K Date: 09 Dec 00 - 02:09 AM McGrath has already said it all and the tribunal route may not be as arduous as you imagine. I'm also sure the CAB is a good option - it's got to be worth a chat with them. But mainly I would say be sure that your hubby's pension rights are not jeopardised. The teachers scheme does not allow people to take early retirement, but there are other options. As I recall, the scheme is based on average salary in the final years of employment so if your husband is going to reduce to half salary, so might his pension expectancy reduce. I have the information somewhere if you need help on this (it's a real pain trying to go through it, but for you Pat, anything!). In fact, the union rep should have the necessary info first hand and if there has been constructive dismissal which leads to loss of pension rights they absolutely have to take it on. Best of luck Terry |
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