Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM

If anyone wants to know more about this sort of thing, check out Mapp v Ohio, or the 4th amendment

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 02:03 PM

thx little hawk & hesperis may you die in bed at 95, shot by a jealous lover.

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:06 PM

Fair enough, Skeptic John. :)

KFC

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:41 PM

My dear Jon, In order for the Sups to find as they did, they flew in the face of every decision they previously wrote, so much for stari decisis, even within the same court, even within the same "judicial" mind.

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:35 PM

"Operationalizing that concept is, admittedly, proving more difficult than anticipated."

"Operationalizing "; WOW!!! What an awesome word - I love it!! I'm gonna have to look that one up in my big, thick, heavy dictionary, 'cause i bet it ain't even IN that skimpy lil' Webster's! What's that one worth in "Scrabble"??? Really; I get a kick out of words, and that one surely is a doozey!!!

"...you could call the Washington Times "alternative press" -- it's owned and operated by the Unification Church. And that's about as alternative as it gets."

I was aware of the association, but I don't see a lot of Sun-Myung-MOON glorification going on here, only a bringing together of a multitude of people from an amazingly diverse spectrum of races, religions, cultures and creeds to restore basic family and civic values. Yes, I do retain a shred of skepticisim given the UC's past "Cult" status - but do I hear a somewhat stronger judgementalisim coming accross here?

MAV can tell you more about this movement, as he is more familiar with it. They do a lot of music, I'm told.

MAV, being a frugal, rural fellow, is using a "free" internet connection which is proving itself to be worth about all he is paying for it - which is why we are not hearing much from him here lately... much to the relief of some, no doubt.

"Those who cast their vote decide nothing..Those who count the votes decide everything..J Stalin"

Sounds like "Bugsy" DALEY took great inspiration from that one; I'll bet "Uncle Joe", perpertrator of one of the more massive genocides of world history, would have been a big fan of "Vote-O-Matics", "Butterfly Ballots", and "Chads" too. We got rid of those atrocities here in Maine about 20 years ago because they were so compatable with Chicago-style "creative counting" by the likes of "Boss" DALEY and his DNC operatives.

I picked up a little bright red volume of the "Thoughts of Mao Tse Tung" last summer at a yard sale, and from what I've read so far, it's resonates marvelously with what I hear spewing from the "PC" American Left. Coincidence???

Re. the NH motto:

"Live free by giving freedom to others to live freely in their chosen fashion"

...A viable option, but try getting that along the top of a licence plate so's anyone could read it from 2 carlengths behind... besides, it sounds more like Vermont than NH in sentiment.

Having been born, raised, and serving 5 1/2 years in NH's Service (Dept. of Safety) I remember how controversial that slogan is, and has been for some time. There was a big flap about 10 years ago where people were taping it over or coming up with alternatives etc.. I'ts a quote from some NH Revolutionary War hero as I recall, but I don't think many Granite Staters take it all that seriously any more.

Freedom being a relative thing, I suppose NH has a certain edge by having no income tax, per se, although they sure make up for it on property taxes, and the Governor there (Gene SHAHEEN, I think?)is taking steps to rectify that oversight and correct the greivous injustice of working residents keeping entirely too much of their own money.

"...Its called prior constraint and its one of the things our founding fathers tried to address in the Constitution. We're not supposed to do it. "

Oh, like "Gun Control"?? Register, then confistcate all those bad nasty guns BEFORE otherwise decent, responsible, law-abiding subjects run amock and start shooting each other? Works for the goose, how's 'bout the gander, Massah?

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:20 PM

Catspawl;

".........so where is MAV boy anyway?"

Actually I was in Washington.

mav

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 10:32 PM

Dear People living in the Blue Areas,

If Ashcroft isn't confirmed, perhaps you will enjoy an interim appointee like say, Alan Keyes or Bob Barr for AG.

Signed,

The People in the Red Areas

PS What woman's right to choose?

What seperation of church and state?

Can't seem to find them in the Constitution. Perhaps they've been lost.

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:06 PM

The separation of church and state is found in the first amendment. As to the womens right to choose, it is an age old right in a pluralist democracy, the right to be left alone. Phisical autonomy is an age old notion, and it is closely associated with the right of privacy, which the Court found to be underlieing such rights as the protection agaisnt unreasonable searches. As to those rights being lost, they are more endangered than lost, but if they are lost, you will see an end to the appathy of the silent majority in this nation, that majority which voted for President Gore and got mr. Bush.
Larry

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: GUEST,MAV
Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:48 PM

"The separation of church and state is found in the first amendment"

No it isn't. The first amendment says the state cannot establish a religion (As in "The Church of The US") nor prohibit the practice of religion. "As to the womens right to choose, it is an age old right in a pluralist democracy, the right to be left alone. Phisical autonomy is an age old notion, and it is closely associated with the right of privacy, which the Court found to be underlieing such rights as the protection agaisnt unreasonable searches"

That is the alleged location, but IT'S NOT THERE!

The founding fathers weren't idiots, if they meant something, they put it in explicit language.

...that majority which voted for President Gore and got mr. Bush.

They were also specific in stating how presidential elections are conducted, there IS NO "POPULAR VOTE"! There are 50 state races, winner takes all the electoral votes in most cases.

algor has been thrown down the stairs by the DNC, what an idiot. He's now teaching a Journalism class (Liberal Media 101) at Georgetown.

He didn't win the majority in either Tennessee or Arkansas, and today it is being reported that massive voter fraud has been detected in Florida (democRATs of course)

mav

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:15 AM

If I need to explain to you the difference between non-establishment of religion and what that means in creating a wall between church and state, well, there are some challenges I am just not up to this early in the day. Now, when it comes to fundamentalist interpritations of either the bible or the Constitution, I notice that the same folks are quick to interpret when the writing goes against their poticular notion. For example, most "right to lifers" interprit such sayings as "choose life" to say the Bible is anti abortion, and ignore the only direct reference to abortion, Numbers 5 - 11 (or there about, read a paragraph one way or the other) where in - if one suspects one's wife of infidelitiy, you take her to the priest who administers bitter water, which, if she was unfaithful, the baby withers in her womb. Now, I don't endorce coersive abortion, such as described here, just an example of selective fundimentalism (or legal formalism for its legalist equivelant). Well, enough from me for now... carry on all...
all the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:16 AM

PS I think I will go check out bushorchimp.com and let you know if it is worth a visit.

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:22 AM

Oh I dunno' Larry.........Its not too bad.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:27 AM

Bushorchimp dot com... BRILLIANT, I was inspired to leave this comment in the guestbook... "in our chromosomes there is only a single enzyme difference between humans and chimps. In the case of Bush, I think we should demand a recount."
Larry

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:34 AM

MAV,

The founding fathers wrote a political document that they tried to make as broad as possible. The Bill of Rights came about because the States and the people wanted them as the price of ratification. The founding fathers added them after the fact.

I always thought it was wrong to argue that the Constitution "grants" a right to privacy. Under the idea of constitution as a social contract, the government is created to mediate between individuals exercising innate rights. The government, except as detailed (I was going to use 'enumerated' but didn't want to freak out 'guest' in Vermont) by the Federal or State constitutions, has no right to interfere. The "right to privacy" existed (IMO) long before any constitution.

You seem to come at it from the other end. That the Constitution is the source of individual rights.

Guest, I apologize for being literate.

Regards John

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:25 PM

Hey MAV, nice to see you back! I thought Spaw had driven you away in a fit of pique. (Well, no, I didn't really think that, but it's fun to say I did...)

One thing I can tell you for sure: The American Civil War never ended. It continues to be fought out in the political arena, in the newspapers, on the TV, on the talk shows, and on Mudcat.

Of course, the issues have changed (somewhat...), and the geographical divisions have shifted. It's now the denser population centers (like New York City and California) against the rest of the country.

The world outside your borders watches and chuckles. You are still "a house divided", despite Lincoln's efforts to avoid just such a situation.

And it's a damn good thing. If you yanks (excuse the term) ever got totally united you would be damn dangerous and would probably take over the entire world, and we'd all be forced to eat McDonalds hamburgers and have a TV in every room, and watch "Survivor" 6 days a week and then pray like hell on the 7th for an invasion from outer space or some divine intervention by the deity of our choice.

As long as you Democrats and Republicans continue slinging mud at each other, however, and wasting your energy in that fashion, there is some hope that we in Canada and other small countries may yet cling to some small vestiges of cultural autonomy.

Bravo! Let the battle rage, I say. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:51 PM

"Cultural autonomy"? Look, if you don't like McDonald's hamburgers, O Canada, then stop the hell eating them!

Oy.

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Ringer
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 02:56 PM

I don't understand you Americans' obsession with the separation of Church and State. In England, we have an Established Church, and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:01 PM

Mousethief - I never DO eat them...but what can I do when our TV and all our media are saturated with American programming and American advertising, and each new generation of Canadian youngsters trots out dutifully and eats them? That's what I'm talking about here. They're all tuned into Survivor and Ally McBeal up here.

They did a survey a while back, and half the kids in our public schools didn't even know we have a prime minister in Canada...they thought we had a president! It's pathetic.

That's why the internal divisions in the USA offer us a glimmer of hope. It makes things look better here. Imagine how relieved the Gauls and Germanic and Brittanic tribes felt when the Romans were fighting wars amongst themselves. Same principle applies. When the Chinese are divided amongst themselves, the Vietnamese can relax for a while.

- LH

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:25 PM

Bald Eagle - The so-called "Bible Belt" has always been a particularly strident and notable voice in the politics of the USA, whereas in England I don't think there has been much parallel to that. Maybe that's why Americans are pretty hot on the issue of separation of church and state. There's more at stake in the USA when it comes to that.

By the way, I always assumed from your name "Bald Eagle" that you were American, because that bird is their national emblem. I was surprised to hear you're from England.

What does the term "Established Church" mean?

- LH

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 03:54 PM

Little Hawk,

Having lived in the Bible Belt, the fear is justified. Too many can quote the bible but not the constitution and feel they are divinely authorized to re-shape their community, town, county or state into a fairly repressive theocracy. Anyone who's opposed these groups (and the Religious Right are just the shock troops) has a taste of their moral fervor. When they tried to take over the School Board in the county in North Florida I used to live in, those of us opposing them had our friends and family and (in some cases) our employers called by very sincere "Good Christian men and woman" wondering how our families tolerated us, our friends associated with us or our bosses could allow us to work for them.

At least one of our action committee was told by a local HVAC service that they wouldn't repair her air conditioner as they didn't "do business with your kind.". Three local print/copy shops refused to print our brochures. Not because they supported the other side. They were afraid they'd start harassing their customers.

Even after we more or less won, there were still constant 'attacks' through the individual schools, letters to the editor and the every popular talk-radio shows to push their agenda. Their agenda, btw, included mandatory school prayer, banning a whole list of books (including Little Red Riding Hood), review/approval of the type of music allowed at school functions, dress code and so on.

Regards John

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:10 PM

Thanks for pointing this out, Skeptic. I'm familiar with lots and lots of similar examples, and not just from the deep South.

Most people seem to consider the Religious Right as some sort of "cute" anachronism, and don't realise how much real damage they inflict and what they are capable of.

These people are not "cute", and they are certainly not "Christians". And they are being empowered by Prince George & Co. Can you spell "Afghan" ?

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 06:14 PM

Absolutely, John! Good explanation, and well appreciated too. I would have gone into all that, but I was in a hurry, so I didn't. Frankly, the Bible Belt worries me a whole lot. Not too long ago, historically speaking, similarly minded people were burning their neighbours at the stake.

- LH

Subject: RE: Conservative Cavalry Round Five !!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:03 PM

The nearest thing you'd find to the Bible Belt in the British Isles would be across the water from England. Ian Paisley got his "doctorate" at that strange Jones university where Bush got a standing ovation.

But I think we should get away from this politicking around, and talk some time about what you could call "cultural conservatism", or old-fashionism, because I think a lot of us have a lot more in common there, and not much in common with a lot of the people who run the parties we might find ourselves voting for, left or right, and both sides of the Atlantic (and beyond). And maybe that ties in with the music wee like as well.