BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)

Subject: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Naemanson
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:10 PM

This may stretch the capabilities of the Mudcat to an extreme. I am calling on the abilities of our little band of music makers, especially our UK contingent, to step into what may be a foreign field.

A friend of my father's willed him an antique hunting rifle. He is looking for more information about it including when it was made and who was the original owner. This is not as odd as it may seem. The rifle was a very expensive piece of equipment back in the 19th century and the company would have kept records on the purchaser. Very likely the purchaser was a wealthy English aristocrat who purchased it for big game hunting in Africa or India.

The rifle is a .62 caliber half stock percussion rifle made by Charles Lancaster Ltd. situated at 151 New Bond Street, London, England (which went out of business in 1914). It is marked with serial number 1755. He estimates it was made around 1853 to 1855. It uses Brunswick Rifling which was only two rifling grooves with a twist of one turn in ten feet. It has a three leaf rear sight with a gold center line and a platinum plug under the nipple. There is a stag carved or etched on to the cap box. He has located a photo of a similar rifle that was made for a maharajah in India.

We are specifically looking for a possible location of the records of the Charles Lancaster company.

I have left messages at some of the newsgroups but have had no luck yet. Can the Mudcat outdo them?

What can you guys tell me?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:15 PM

Sounds like a job for Antiques Roadshow, do they have an email address?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:24 PM

Have you tried your local museum? There should be someone there who'd know the places to find this information. Or if there's an antique centre they should know where to look. And good librarians like being asked questions thta involve finding sources of information - I mean, there have to be and catalogues about this kind of thing. Or posh auction houses like Christies or Sothebies?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:26 PM

Contact Shooting Times magazine, based in Windsor, UK. They've got a resident expert called Geoffrey Boothroyd, who's the fount of all knowledge on antique firearms and seems to specialise in trcking down details of some of the most obscure guns on behalf of readers.
Failing that, try Sotheby's or Christie's - they've got offices worldwide which are listed on their websites, and have experts on old sporting arms.
Lancaster was on of the top London gunmakers, and the records of many of them have now been subsumed into those of thre three main survivors - William Evans (in Pall Mall), Holland & Holland (in Bruton Street) and Purdey & Sons (in, I think, South Audley Street). One of them may be able to furnish details of the original owner and could help.
As to the potential value of the rifle, it could be worth a lot, and more if it has the original case, cleaning equipment and bullet moulds.
Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:31 PM

Habe you tried leaving a message here?
BBC antiques noticeboard

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:47 PM

Two of our parishioners are partners in a nationally-known ballistics testing firm. One helped invet the M-16 and both know a LOT about the old ones. We were given an antique and they knew a lot.... I'll ask Greg to see them on this tomorrow AM and we will e-mail you. Send a scan to me if you can. (I only have a printer this weekend; after that it would go go Greg's e-mail.)

And it happened... At the Mudcat!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: SeanM
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:51 PM

OK, I'm in the US contingent, but...

Antique & Vintage Firearm Network
Hallowell & Co. (they have a Lancaster for sale, might contact them about sources)
I'd say there's also a chance that the company might still be around, under the name "Charles Lancaster & Co.", as there's a book on hunting published with them dating back to 1962. I can't find a direct link with a cursory search, but I hope you have better luck.

Hope this helps...

M

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: wildlone
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:29 PM

You could try this site as there is now a gun dealer working out of it. "click" .
The email address is [e-mail]
They are re-enactors who years ago saw that there was a need for good kit.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:31 PM

I couldn't find much myself, other than a double rifle selling for $14,995 and another going for $19,995 here - with piccies.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:45 PM

What you have has collector interest, and is quite valuable. All the advice above is relevant. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:52 PM

You might try Dixie Gun Works in Union City, Tennessee. They carry original and reproduction parts for vintage firearms and have a great deal of historical information as well. They have a catalog as well as a website. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: wildlone
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:01 PM

have also contacted a few of my friends who are into antique guns

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: MarkS
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:26 PM

Best bet would be to contact the National Rifle Association,(NRA), to Americans. They have a website and in their publications often identify and price out antique or rare firearms.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:34 PM

Oh Naemanson, you of little faith -- "stretch the capabilities of the Mudcat to an extreme" - it is to laugh!!
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:37 PM

aside--is there anything you can't find out about on MudCat? The Ultimate Global Human Encyclopedia......

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:41 PM

Yes, and all is grist to the Folk Process Mill. we must be resigned to involving ourselves in everything that can be known and experienced!!! For the good of the Folk Universe!

Ooo, band names!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: rangeroger
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:01 PM

Sorcha, if you changed that to Human Ultimate Global Encyclopedia it would be a HUGE improvement.

rr

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:23 PM

That's fine, whatever. It is an amazing place, no matter what you call it, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: GUEST,Uncle Jaque
Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:54 PM

One good source would be Dave PURINTON, owner of the Brunswick (ME) Gun Shop on Bath Rd. in Brunswick - although I'm told he is on medical leave-of-absence for the winter. One of the resident 'smiths might know a bit about it.

I have a copy of "The Muzzle-Loading Cap-Lock Rifle" by Ned ROBERTS (1940) but he seems to deal with American arms and makers exclusively.

As I recall, the British Navy used Brunswicks for a while from the 1780's up through 1850's, when the "Enfield" became the standard for land and sea forces. I'm not sure but what that BBC series "Sharpe's Rifles" dealing with the Napoleonic Wars featured flintlock Brunswicks in action. Yours seems to be a civilian edition.

This system uses a very distinctive "belted" ball, which looks a little like a tootsie-pop without the stick.. and made of lead, of course. I think you can still get moulds for them, although I have learned over 30+ years of dealing with "Dixie" GW to be extemely circumspect when doing so, and then only as a last resort.

Does your rifle appear to have been made as a percussion lock, or converted from flintlock (as many were)?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: rangeroger
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:12 PM

Sorcha, sorry. I was just trying to be punny.

rr

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:32 PM

(doh--I realize that now!! LOL It is better, tho!)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Troll
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:09 PM

Roger, you WILL be punnished for that.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:22 PM

The rifle has not been converted. Except for the dirt and stains of age it could have just come out of the show room.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:52 PM

McGrath of Harlow - "Have you tried your local museum?" The "local" museum is the Maine Maritime Museum. It is a preeminent museum for seacraft but there's not much there (I know that without looking.) The nearest serious museum for this kind of thing is in Boston or perhaps Connecticut. There are a (very) few disadvatages to living in a remote area. This is one of them. It was a good idea though.

Gervase - "Contact Shooting Times magazine" They apparently don't have a web site. All I found were sites selling subscriptions to the magazine. I am pursuing the suggestions for the three other makers.

Roger in Sheffield - "BBC antiques noticeboard" I left a message and will keep track of it's progress.

WYSIWYG - I don't have a picture of the rifle. Dad is terribly unsophisticated when it comes to modern technology and would have no idea how to get a picture on to the computer. BTW, he lives four hours north of me. Check out a map. Look at Bath, Maine, and then at Houlton, Maine. Then shiver with the imagined cold up there. There are reasons I live in SOUTHERN Maine. *BG*

SeanM and Wildlone - Thanks for the sites. They seem quite involved so I will hold them back for use if the easier lines of investigation don't pan out.

Jeri - Thanks for the site and the pictures.

Dave (the ancient mariner) - Yeah, it's pretty valuable. Dad estimates it at between $2000 and $5,000.

Wildlone and WYSIWYG - Thanks for checking around for me. Can't wait to hear the responses.

MarkS - "contact the National Rifle Association,(NRA)" Not bad but that is an avenue open to my father and I believe her tried it already. Of course he won't use a computer so he could still be waiting for the letter to reach them.

Uncle Jaque - Dad knows Dave Purinton pretty well. No news there until he gets back. You're right about the connection with Sharpe's Rifles. That Brunsick Rifling was what the British used in the Baker Rifles. The rifle has not been converted from flintlock.

I am pursuing several lines of investigation and will let you know the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:33 AM

Yeah, if you get an answer first, shoot.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:39 AM

Depending on condition, and if it comes with original case and tools, you can double your fathers estimate. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 10:57 AM

Here are some titles of books that you might be able to Inter Library Loan from your local library:

Gunmakers of London, 1350-1850, by Howard Blackmore, published in 1986

Game Guns and Rifles: Percussion to Hammerless Ejector in Britian, by Richard Akehurst, published 1983

1998 Standard Catalog of Firearms: The Collector's Price and Reference Guide, 8th edition; Ned Schwing (ed), published 1998

I am interested in the outcome, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:10 PM

The Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, WY has a huge firearms museum and loads of information about guns from all over the world. I don't know their web address but I have found their site before with no trouble. It's worth a try! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:24 PM

Naemanson,

I don't know how much help this will be, but there is an NRA museum in Washington, they might be able to help. In addition, it might be worth trying to contact the Victoria and Albert Museum in London (it's amazing the range they have).

Good Luck with the search.

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Greyeyes
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 02:32 PM

Brett

Just back off holiday, but better late than never. I'm making enquiries via the UK public Libraries network, but it will take around 48 hrs to get any useful feedback. I'll let you know.

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: GUEST,Greyeyes (at work)
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:21 AM

Right, Charles Lancaster Ltd were taken over by another London Gunmaker called Joseph Lang & Co. (who coincidentally made my grandfather's 12 bore). They no longer trade under that name but as far as I can tell still exist under the name Atkin, Grant & Lang, no longer based in London, but in St Albans, Hertfordshire. I suspect they no longer make guns, just buy and sell old ones. They will trace the provenance of an old gun for £25. Their website, and all further details are

here

I hope this is helpful, it's the best I can do.

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:32 AM

Got a big ol' gun
Got a big ol' gun
Got a big ol' bullet
And I guess you could say
Yeah I guess you could say
I'm real full of it!

--Bush (the band, not the president!)

Lol!

--Matt (who loves looking at antique guns)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Feb 01 - 07:11 PM

Wow! Greyeyes, that will indeed do it. I'm sure Dad will send his check off as soon as possible. It will probably take weeks but I will post the results here when they come in. Thank you very much.

Matt, if you like old guns you would love my Dad's house. He has been building and repairing muzzle loaders for years. If really strapped for cash he'll work on a suppository gun but his first and only love is the muzzle loader.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM

Is there any way you could get a pic up on Photoloft, or someplace? I would love to see this.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Greyeyes
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:57 PM

I was wrong when I said "I suspect they no longer make guns, just buy and sell old ones." They actually make new guns to the exact specification of original Grant, Atkin or Lang guns. My Dad has made enquiries about Grandpa's shotgun, It's always been in the family so there's not much point paying for it's provenance, other than to find out the original price, but apparently to have an equivalent built by them now to the same standards would cost œ25,000.

Incidentally this was a classic example of the limitations of the internet as a research tool. I couldn't have made the initial link between Lancaster and Lang without hard copy sources in a good reference library. Once that link was made it was relatively easy to track down the Lang website on the net.

Old and new in tandem, I'm such a cutting edge librarian!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Peter T.
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:46 PM

HOORAY FOR LIBRARIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:19 PM

As promised above here is the update.

Dad has decided not to pay the money to find out more about the rifle. I may do it for him as a gift but as of now he has lost interest in the project. I'm not saying he could teach a Scot about thrift but he could come close.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Question (Believe it or not)
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:06 PM

Naemanson: DAve is right about the estimate being very low. From the way you describe the rifle and its rarity even his estimate may be low. I'm not familiar with the Lancaster but in general the questions to ask are: Does it fire safely? are the original box and tools with it? Any Pitting in the barrel or damage to the blueing? How many were made? If over say twenty thousand, your father's rifle would command a higher price. I suggest in addition, you check with the Smithsonian Institute, or the British hunt clubs for experts on the weapon as I assume given the quality of the rifle that it was made for someone with money. It would have been out of the reach of the ordinary hunter or estate game keeper. Even in the U.S. the rifle would have been a rich man's toy. If you know where he got it and could trace the oringianl owner, who can affect the price as much as what. Say for example, if the gun was owned by U.S. Grant or George Custer it would be worth more than say if it was owned by the local mayor of Bangor in 1855. Kindest reguards, Neil PS keep us posted on how it goes.