Searching for Rare Guitar

Subject: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:06 PM

I already am on the want list at Mando Bros., Gruhn's, and Elderly, and a zillion other want-ad and classified sites, but I thought what the hell, I'd toss this out to the Forum, because you never know if someone might actually happen to have one of the following sitting in a closet or under their bed gathering dust (in its case hopefully).

If anyone here has, or knows of anyone who just happens to have an all original Martin OOO-28, manufactured anytime between 1946 and 1964, and might be interested in selling it, please send me a P.M.

These are very hard to come by (in all original condition) because most people who have one tend to hang onto them.

(I'm not interested in any other make/manufacturer, model or body style suggestions. I have my reasons for being very specific on this instrument, and no I don't like the newer Clapton series from Martin.)

Thanks for indulging me.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:13 PM

No clues JP, but good luck!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: tar_heel
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:14 PM

çontact a lady named bonnie!!![e-mail] ive seen a picture of it,,,i think it may be what u r looking for...its certainly one of a kind!! tell her u got her email from me!...CHUCK HEMRICK..aka TAR_HEEL

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:53 PM

Thanks Chuck. (I've e-mailed her.)

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:57 PM

I hope it is what you are looking for, JP. Sounds a marvy instrument. Good Luck!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 11:57 AM

Just a follow up to TAR_HEEL's lead. This was a surprise (but unfortunately not what I happend to be looking for.) His friend has an immaculate and very small bodied rosewood Martin made sometime between 1830s and 1840, pyramid bridge, gut/nylon strings, 12 fret with slotted headstock. It may very well have been made by CF Martin himself (or on his watch.) A very historically important piece, one that an ardent collector or a museum would salivate over acquiring.

Still looking specifically for I described in the first post here. ...but thanks to T.H. for bringing this fascinating piece to my attention.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:54 PM

Hi, have you tryied Tony at The fretted Workshop in Amherst Mass. Or Stan at The Music Emporium in Lexington Mass.. Also whats the name of the one in Brattelbourgh VT.. She has great guitars sail through her place as well.. Also there is John Cook on Cook Hill road in CHesher Ct and I wander about "Music Man" West Warwick RI might have,, Sorry I dont have the Telipone #'s on these guys.. Good Hunting!!! ( I did see a great 0018 at a shop in SAnta Barbara in early January) I can find that # if you need it.. Yours, the very guitar addiced Guy Wolff!!!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:14 PM

Thanks Guy.
Do any of the stores you mentioned have websites? (and if so, can you post or P.M. me the URLs? I like to do my browsing on line whenever possible.) There's always a remote chance they might have exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks.

J.P.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From:
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 02:50 PM

Try Gryphon Instruments in Palo Alto, CA. They are VERY knowledgeable about Martin instruments. Richard Johnston, co-author of the Martin Guitar Book, is the longtime co-owner of the store. --RWM

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 05:31 PM

Already have R.W. (They ain't gots what I want)..but thanks.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 07:04 PM

I know the Music Emporium has a web site.. Just do a search on them.. Sorry I dont have their imfo infront of me. The others all have had instroments I have drooled over.. I hear the Robert Jonhson concert in Seattle will give away a good little something of a guitar for winning thier guitar contest( Max lets go, what do you say). Just another way of getting a nice small bodied guitar.!!! All the best , Guy
Oh How about George Younblood, Is he still in the wonderful gitar bussines. I think he is somewhere like Gilford Ct. more good hunting to you.G

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Feb 01 - 05:09 PM

(refreshing)

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 01 Feb 01 - 09:14 PM

Hey Justa. There is a 1940 in Ebay in case you are interested. Under Martin Guitars Item # 1407380207. Jeepman

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Troll
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:39 AM

Try Charlie Jirousek in Safety Harbor Fl. 727-276 7524. He is a collector and luthier. I don't know that he has what you are looking for but he may know where one is.

troll

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 10:57 AM

Thanks for the lead Jeepman. (I've contacted the seller directly to see if I can get him to just cut to the chase. It's a bit of a fixer-upper but definitely something extremely desireable.) If it pans out I'll let you know.)

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:58 PM

Good-o JP. Let me know . Jeepman

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:58 PM

Good-o JP. Let me know . Jeepman

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 02:59 PM

Good-o JP. Let me know . Jeepman

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:08 PM

Picker,

Didn't see anything here (97 Clapton, but you don't want that), but you should check this site from time to time.

www.12fret.com/used/index.html#Flat-top Steel String

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 03:16 PM

Trying Blueclickything

Click here

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 04:53 PM

They've been aware of my particular search for a couple of years, Steve, but thanks. (Mr. Wren knows where to reach me.)

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:06 PM

While you say you don't want any alternatives, I would point out that the 000-21 models mad during this era are virtually the same as 000-28, but because the inlays are less elaborate are much less sought after. In fact, the lack of bindings to the back edge means that the backs were more carefully fitted than on the 28 models. Just as hard to find, but likely to be cheaper for the same sound and playability.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: reggie miles
Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:51 PM

I had a 000-28 but it was a 1928 OM model. I lost it though trying to do business with a rather unscrupulous dealer in used instruments whose name need not be mentioned here. It was undoubtedly the best sounding instument I've ever owned or may ever own. Again a very difficult one to find in any condition. This one was in excellent original condition when I found it. Of course I can always hope for another to come my way in like condition but I suspect it was a once in a lifetime kind of find. My efforts at creating music have not rewarded me with an unlimited amount of cashola with which to shop for another but one never knows what can be found while haunting garage sales, swapmeets and the like.

I've enjoyed making my own frankenstinian monstrosities of late as well. reg

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:45 AM

Found something rare, and with good reason too!

Clicky

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Feb 01 - 01:52 AM

With e-bay, you Damn well better be sure! Caveat emperator!!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: GUEST,E-BaySlave
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 08:36 PM

How goes the search, Justa?

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 20 Feb 01 - 11:44 PM

Well it's been very interesting, exciting, stressful, and very educational.

Either I get offered late 40's/early 50s OOO-28's that are in absolutely deplorable condition, but the sellers are demanding top dollar because "Duh....hey it's old and vintage and it's a Martin!" - to the other extreme of having been offered some extremely gorgeous pre war beauties in practically mint condition that would require a second mortgage to purchase. I think not.

Then last week something that started out very promising turned to dogshit pretty rapidly. A private dealer in Tennessee who imports these mint and near mint beauties from Japan (from other Japanese Martin collectors he hobnobs with) told me he was in negotiations for a near mint '67 model, and the price seemed fair. I asked for first right of refusal when he got it in and before he threw it up on his web site. He agreed. I also decided to widen the search to include later 60's models.

Then I started to press him for details, and very matter of factly was told that it was near mint in every respect, but there was a minor, insignificant bit of work done to it. That little minor, insignificant piece of work, was the fact that the braces had been lightly scalloped!

Now I'm going to sound like a real knit-picking purist, guitar snob or nerd, elitist or whatever you want to call me, but sorry, this little piece of work is as significant an alteration to the instrument's originality (which was straight braced by the way) as is re-finishing the guitar. Therefore it is devalued by approximately 40-50% of what its legitimate market value should be, which in turn makes the asking price in my opinion ($4,850) ludicrous.

I wrote the dealer a polite and very diplomatically worded e-mail telling him I'll take a pass on this one, but that I had no doubt he'd move it in a matter of days once it hit his web site.

Thing is with this guy, he has an existing clientele of buyers who don't mind "conversion" instruments (meaning otherwise straight braced original Martins that have been given to luthiers and either re-topped with scalloped bracing, or simply scalloping the bracing and leaving the original tops on.)

There is most definitely a market for this, but not a collectors market. I consulted with two expert luthiers than I know personally who know more about Martins than I do, about this instrument. Their opinions were unanimous....and concurred with my feeling about it as well. I'm not only doing this from a playing standpoint but also from a bit of an investment stand point as well. (They always say "invest in what you love". I happen to love guitars as sort of playable art.) My concern was if I was to buy this instrument, and say for whatever the reason several years down the road I wanted to flip it (for perhaps an acquisition of something older) would I have trouble getting my money out of it?

And the answer is yes. Because once you enter that little private world of niche market collectors/investors who really know their stuff, a conversion such as this would be an instant turn off and a deal breaker. And most regular players wouldn't spend that amount of money on a guitar such as this as it's pretty expensive, so you'd need someone gullable and well heeled, and even if you found them, you'd know you were puttin' one over on them, and pickers shouldn't pull that kind of shit on each other regardless.

But, on the other hand if you factor in what it would cost you to purchase a new Brazilian rosewood OOO-28, then the $4850.00 seems like a bargain - provided you're going to keep it forever and just play the hell out of it without a thought to ever selling it.

With me and my G.A.S. attacks, nothing is forever. There's always a purdier, better sounding and looking axe out there just around the corner...so when I do make my moves, I try and do it in such a way that I'm gradually moving up the ladder and not only getting things that are fun and great to play, and but that over the long term will appreciate a bit, so that I too can move into that special niche market without having to take mortgages out to finance these things.

As for E-Bay, now there's a real market for the gullably inclined and uninformed. The majority of the dog shit that was offered to me, originated there. What kills me about that place with respect to shopping vintage, is that is many instances (and this is supposed to be an auction fer chisakes) that buyers end up paying the same or even more for these instruments than if they just went to a local vintage store and bought one there. E-Bay has practically zero credibility for me based on what I've looked at and seen happening there over the past few weeks. Whatever it is I wanted will not be found there.

In any event, I'm waiting to hear back from the Martin Custom Shop. I am just about ready to say fuck it and am now leaning towards ordering a brand new, custom OOO-45 to my exact specifications, and getting an instrument specifically made for me that I'll love playing and keeping, and that perhaps some day my kids can make a shit load of money on when I take up the harp and learn to use those damn wings.

So I'll have to wait a bit and see how this saga unfolds. (Thanks for indulging me.)

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 11:39 AM

UPDATE: The saga and most current version of G.A.S. with me has finally ended. What was that expression about great instruments find their players? Well that's exactly what happened to me.

I'd been in touch with so many dealers across the U.S. that I'd forgotten about having contacted many of them. As well I managed to make a few enemies on E-Bay (guilty of being too well-informed I guess and telling people what their instruments were really worth and what they should be asking - course they didn't want to hear THAT!) And it seemed the harder I looked, the more frustrating it became for reasons mentioned in my last post. Very hard to find honest brokers out there like Elderly and George Gruhn, etc. that sell things at fair market value.

I've come to the conclusion that there's definitely an organized and aggressive "conspiracy" out there right now by a number of shysters (some extremely well-known and supposedly respected, some not so well-known) to attempt to inflate the current market pricing for vintage Martins REGARDLESS of their condition. It's been an extremely enlightening and educational process for me. You can see this for yourself (if you already know the market) and look at offerings on E-Bay and also - well I'm not going to mention any names of specific dealers - but they're definitely out there and on the Internet with their web sites.

I'd given up looking for the past couple of weeks. Then the other day, I was contacted by someone I'd forgotten about who'd just gotten something in. Long of the short is that I purchased a near mint condition 1947 Martin OOO-21, that is crack free and not refinished in any way shape or form. If you didn't know it, you'd think it was about 5 years old from a cosmetic viewpoint. And I won't have to sink any additional money into in for maintenance as it just had a neck reset, complete refretting, and a Martin replacement bridge with bone saddle. The price was towards the higher end of "reasonable" considering it's not a 28, but, the wood is outstanding on this guitar. (I like swirling-looking BRW and the sides and back are definitely that.)

So I'm pretty pleased................for now.

I figure I'll be good for about a year, then it'll be "okay what's next?" *BG* At which time I'll probably start looking around for a D-18 of around the same time period. IT NEVER ENDS!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 09:52 PM

Well Gang, I admit that I've been getting messages and e-mails from JP here and what he has on the thread is only a sanitized version of the lad's negotiations! I hope that all gets worked out on his latest one here or we will need to take up a collection to get him into both a shrink and a cardiologist!

Got my fingers crossed JP.....Lemmee know if this one goes down.....Always a good sign when the axe comes looking for you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 10:40 PM

STOP THE PRESSES....ITS OFFICIAL

The guitar is on its way to him! On the other hand, NOW he wants a 40's-50's D-18..........Anyone????.........oy...........

THEN TONIGHT ALSO I FIND THAT DWDITTY HAS A TRIPLE O COLLINGS COMING HIS WAY!!!!!!!!!WELL ALRIGHT DW!!!!

I was wonderin' if either of you two big spenders could send a few bucks my way???

Spaw

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 10:46 PM

"Hey, Big Spender........." Congrats to both of you!!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 11:22 PM

well.....my husband has a '52 D 18, but I've never been that pissed off with him that I would consider auctioning it off behind his back....hmmmm.....nyah......Congratulations on your coveted Martins guys!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 11:28 PM

Thanks.

- and Guest-CraigS you were absolutely right.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: UB Ed
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 08:41 AM

JP, congratulations. I know you;re excited. Although not going for vintage, it took me over 12 months to decide on my Lowden. Many thanks to all the Cat advisors!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: GUEST,Steve N.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:30 PM

What a fascinating thread to follow! Thank you for the education and entertainment. You are, however, not "just a picker" in reality, or you'd be pickin' on your one-and-only baby, not "trading up" every few years. I got my '40s D-28 thirty-five years ago, and I knew the moment I laid eyes on it that it was mine for life. Right now it looks about one notch up from Norman Blake's guitar, but it plays like silk and booms like no other. What is this "trading up" stuff??!!

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: dwditty
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:57 PM

I've lost count of how many times I've longed for guitars given up in a trade. It is my firm policy, then, to strictly adhere to the G.A.S. and never ever get rid of a guitar again.

To find purveyors of nice specimens, I periodically peruse the "advertiser" section of Acoustic Guitar Magazine's site (www.acguitar I think) or search the dealer data base for such makers as Collings, Santa Cruz, etc. I've narrowed it down to a small list of dealers who frequently update their inventory data-Buffalo Bros, Mandolin Bros, Elderly, Podium, to name a few. Have fun.

dw

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM

Well Steve N. as far as this "trading up" and Guitar Acquisition Syndrome business it is sort of 3 pronged.

(1) The way my male midlife crisis appears to be manifesting itself. (Harmless but expensive.)

(2) I like variety in the music that I play. Sure one guitar would be sufficient, in the same way I could eat nothing but a toasted club sandwich and a coke every single day. But my moods and recording objectives change, as does my style of pickin'. For that reason I like having the option of having a guitar to play that suits my mood, and I do have a profound appreciation of a good instrument, and I'm not a bad picker.

(3) A partial goal in attaining these instruments I own, is that they are not only "players", but also with an appreciative dollar value, and I suppose that someday under the right conditions one or more of them will be parlayed into something pre-war, since these are the ultimate collectable instruments. I can have something that awes me to play or just stare at with a big toothy dumb grin, and my children will have an instrument legacy to either play themselves or sell off as part of their inheritance. I invest in what I love. It's that simple. Some people invest in the stock market, commodities, real estate, art, coins, stamps, and other artifacts. For me it happens to be older Martins. To each his own.

Since there is nothing I would rather do in my spare time that fingerpick or flat pick a guitar, I see myself as just a picker in my heart and soul. I can always find the energy to play when I don't have it for other things.

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:04 PM

Have you seen this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1414210414

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:23 PM

Hi Dan.......I oughta' let JP tell the story, but yaeh, he saw it. The guitar has a large repaired crack and a few other things, but the guy was less than forthcoming about a lot of things, including more detailed pix. If you'll scroll down the page, just above the bidding section, there is a note about "the crybaby from Canada"........this would be JP. He had a bid in but the lack of info and evasiveness was suspicious.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:37 AM

Yes that was me, but where the seller got the idea I was Canadian beats me.

And he was one of the "enemies" I made on E-Bay, in fact without intending to, I think I screwed up his auction. The instrument he has, realistically is worth in the neighborhood of about $4,500.00 to $5,000.00 U.S. Keep in mind that OOO-28s have always been valued a little under the D-28s. I consulted with Frank Ford, George Gruhn, and other luthier/dealers who I know. They agreed with me and verified I wasn't losing my mind.

As for the seller getting pissed at me, if you read his description of the instrument he alludes to the fact that E-Bay might go down so bid quickly on this. I figured if he was in that much of a hurry he might want to dispense with the auction and sell it. I asked him what his bottom line was via email and he said he'd prefer to let the auction run its course. I asked whether what appeared to be a huge crack on the side of the guitar was a flash thing from the camera or indeed a crack. He nonchalantly replied that that was part of the work done at the Martin factory 30 years ago. (Why wasn't the crack addressed in the description? Did he think it wouldn't be noticable? He states in his description that his reserve was fair. I rescinded the bid because of the crack (figured what else was he hiding about it?...and also that my maximum reserve which I set at $5,500.00 was too high, and it was.) This got his nose out of joint because my final actually bid was 3,500.00 but was not as high as I was prepared to go. He assumed it was. I wrote him a final email and suggested he remove the remarks. They had no impact on me at all and only made him look bad and being a money grubbing greedy weasel. I told him I might have been prepared to go as high as 5K. He laughed and said his reserve didn't even come close. FAIR RESERVE MY ASS! The informed buyer is the nemesis of these shysters and they hate being exposed. Anyway that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :-)

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 03:13 AM

Jesus, I'm glad I'm not playin' in that ballpark anymore! That wasn't always the case of course. Back in my pre-marriage, pre-house, pre-responsibility days I LOVED wheeling and dealing in high end antique instruments. The big difference was that if you knew your stuff, and were willing to track down the barest of leads, you could find some wonderful instruments that even a working folk musician could afford. Never kept anything other than my '29 Regal acoustic steel though. The fun was in the buying and SELLING. Most expensive thing I ever bought (not as my primary work instrument) was a 1944 D-18 at 700 bucks. Sold it for a grand and was thrilled. That was in 1976. Holy cow, what that would be worth today!

What IS great fun to me though, is hunting down WEIRD instruments. Got a line on a Czech 6 string banjo that has been made from AUTO PARTS! I ain't kiddin'. If I get it, Mudcat'll know!

Rick

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:10 AM

I saw the crack (which seemed large) and the "Canadian comment" (which seemed jerky). eBay is a cross section of the World, of course, the guy (and gal) who help you jump start your car and the guy (and gal) who cut you off on the highway and force you into an oncoming truck are all there.

There is a very clean Brazilian Rosewood 000-28 at Mandolin Brothers... about an 1988, as I recall, and about $5,000. Not in your time frame but nice.

I am happy to tell you that I've found my dream guitar. Good luck!

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Searching for Rare Guitar
From: GUEST,willie-o
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 12:51 PM

Rick sed: "Never kept anything other than my '29 Regal acoustic steel though."

Hey Rick! is that a reference to Ace?

Go ahead, tell the story. Even if that's not Ace.

yours for the good old days

w-o