 sj |
||
|
||
BS: How many.....
|
|
|
Subject: How many..... From: Midchuck Date: 10 Feb 01 - 10:43 AM How many mudcatters (a/k/a "mudcatter's") are there who know the difference between the plural and the possessive? (Of course, it isn't fair to expect that distinction to be made in countries where English is not the common language. I don't know where that leaves Ireland and Australia...Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck...) Peter. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:12 AM One thing you can guarantee about English speakers, for whom it is their second language; they are a thousand times more likely to have a comprehensive knowledge of the semantics and subtlety of English grammer than most English people or Americans. PS, It's "mudcatters" as it's plural. (unless of course you are a member of the inner clique at the mudcat, in which case you are entitled to use the mudcatters' prerogative). I doubt I've made anything any clearer, but good luck. lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Morticia Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:18 AM Peter, are you wanting to know or testing our dodgy english*BG*? I seem to remember being taught to put an apostrophe if something belonged/ could be ascribed to a person....or where you were missing out a letter...in the plural you don't. Do I get a prize? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:21 AM plural + possessive = s' => mudcatters' lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:27 AM This may sound hard to believe but I do know the difference and don't understand why I get it wrong so frequently. It seems to me that I just have a habit of using the wrong one as I do with there and their, etc. My spelling has always been bad and I suppose I should put my posts through a spell checker to eliminate some of the errors but I am lazy. My grammar used to be reasonable but both of these seem to have deteriorated since I started using computers. The spelling checkers combined with my laziness have done nothing to help my spelling and in reading so much incorrect grammar on the internet and doing little other reading, in addition to my mistakes where I know the rules, I sometimes find myself unable to remember what is and isn't correct - all my fault. To complicate matters further, I make numerous typos and I am a lousy proof reader (and worse on screen than on paper). I have an advantage over most here in that I can correct my own mistakes in a post but it would take me several edits to eliminate all errors (I tend to spot one or two as soon as I hit submit but even if I corrected them, I would find more later) so I tend to leave my posts alone and hope that people can understand me. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Morticia Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:28 AM that's a new one on me, Lox.....I was taught to put an apostrophe after a word only when that word ended in s....is grammer taught differently in the States I wonder? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jon Freeman Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:34 AM Morty, surely music belonging to ONE Mudcatter would be the Mudcatter's music and music belonging to SEVERAL Mudcatters would be the Mudcatters' music. I think the s rule comes in when the word ends in s, e.g. if Jesus had the music, it would be Jesus' music not Jesus's music. I of course stand to be (and expect to be) corrected on this. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:42 AM I may stand corrected lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:51 AM Morticia, Lox's rule stands in Canada too, but I don't know about what is taught in the U.S. regarding grammar. The only exception I can think of, off hand, regarding the possessive is the word "it", for some reason or other. Dam! English must be a difficult language for those just learning. "It's" is the contraction of "it is" and "its" is the possessive. And I always forget which is which when I'm writing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:52 AM Anyone want to correct me and john? *g* (cheers for the suport squiggle) lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: sophocleese Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:53 AM Personally I get confused about where the hell the apostrophe goes and jus figure it out what its/it's supposed to mean from the context. Whenever there are two ways of doing something 50% of teh time I get it wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:54 AM WOW! Lox's rule eh? I like the sound of that .......... hmmm......... lox's rule........ yeah............ I wonder if there's any political mileage in this...... shhhhhh nyeh heh heh heh......... lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:55 AM then again, I just checked my dictionary which states that "its" can be the contraction as well. I think when it comes to that word, I will leave the apostrophe out entirely from now on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:03 PM Well I think there is a Patterson's rule here now, there might as well be a Lox's too. Has a good ring to it doesn't it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Morticia Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:04 PM I understood it's to be a contraction as well as possesive and one or many mudcatter's music would still be mudcatter's music ......but I was taught many, many years ago by teacher who was both elderly and fanatical....any 'new' or popular rules of grammer incensed him.....such as leaving out the commas in an address.He was ten years older than God when he taught me and I was only 14......rules could easily have changed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:07 PM I'll ask an Italian friend of mine. He is the best person I know to ask about technical English questions. lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Amos Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:09 PM Its is NOT a contraction. Its value (anomalous though it may be) is as a possessive. It's ridickkkklous to use it as a contraction. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Allan C. Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:11 PM Just for the sake of clarification, those of us in these United States do, indeed, punctuate possessives, contractions and such in the same way as those who speak English in Canada and across the pond. We just pronounce things oddly. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Bill D Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:16 PM http://www.grammarbook.com/ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Bill D Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:18 PM a quote:
APOSTROPHES
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lox Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:18 PM I have bookmarked the site. Cheers Bill. lox |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:22 PM Come to think of it, Spaw's Law (hmmm.....that has a nice ring to it too) could also apply to the English language.
PATTERSON'S LAW
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Lyrical Lady Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:27 PM It's been a mystery to me and I didn't know 'til I read it here...there really are mudcatters who belong to an inner clique! I did know that there are catters who can't help but correct my spelling errors. ( kinda put me off posting, to tell you the truth) Generally speaking though I've enjoyed myself here and I love mudcatters' music. Being one from the great clan of Ross', I'm very fond of of the data base and its list of Scottish Traditional Songs. (Did I get all my apostrophes (should that be ies ?) in the right place!) LL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:29 PM I Missed that day in school...so ever since I just take a guess. Before the S afetr the s or none at all....I am right 30% of the time.... S'pot's' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM Bill, except in the case of "it" (Oxford Dictionary of the English Language) also Spaw's Law.... I rest my case *BG* |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Dave Wynn Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM Hey....s'omethin keeps' eating my cookie...anyone know why it dis'apear's' at random?. 's'pot's' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: SINSULL Date: 10 Feb 01 - 12:44 PM 12 years of Latin; 8 years of Greek: Mudcatters = plural Mudcatter's = singular possessive Mudcatters' = plural possessive Pedantic Mudcatter = redundant |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Bill D Date: 10 Feb 01 - 01:00 PM I never DID **study** the rules in a pedantic way, but if you read... and look at what you are reading... and care, then it gradually just sinks in and LOOKS wrong when you stick apostrophes in randomly (saw on the WWW the other day, "I hope you like my photo's" ...arrrgggghhhh) same with spelling..I am a 2-fingered typist with a tendency to dyslexic errors, but if I stop and LOOK for a moment, I see most of my errors. (yes, it IS more important to communicate and relate than to spend too much time grousing over other folks grammar and punctuation...still, sometimes it is almost painful) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Ebbie Date: 10 Feb 01 - 01:12 PM Bill D- "folk's grammar". :) Ebbie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Snuffy Date: 10 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM Nothing wrong with "I hope you like my photo's" - IF photo is meant as a contraction of photograph, and the apostrophe shows this. (like pec's for pectorals, etc). Thankfully multiple apostrophes seem to have died out - in contracting "shall not", Lewis Carroll spelled it "sha'n't", which is correct but UGLY. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jeri Date: 10 Feb 01 - 02:36 PM Lox, way up there: "Anyone want to correct me and john?" Did you mean "Anyone want to correct Jon and me?" ;-) I rarely correct anyone's grammar unless they're a good enough friend to know I like them for what they have to say/write, not how they say/write it. I'd rather read the words of someone who can barely string them together and spells randomly, than not read anything by them. Intelligence doesn't seem to have anything to do with spelling ability or grammar. I appreciate being corrected. I want to know if I'm making mistakes. I have a serious problem with comma control. I put them where they don't belong, and I don't put them where they do. I got in a massive but friendly argument with someone once about where to put punctuation in relationship to quotation marks. I kept insisting it went Where do you put that "thingie"? and he kept insisting it went Where do you put that "thingie?" It turned out he was right, and I've tried to behave myself since then. Iv'e got a good grasp of apostrophes, though. If I stick one in the wrong place its' probably a typo.
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: GUEST,grrrrr Date: 10 Feb 01 - 03:10 PM Two different schools in different Countries gave me a warped sense of Grammer and I too got a fair wallop of Latin and Greek. I do not think it makes that much difference how well we write here, although it may be a personal thing for some. The best lessons I ever had were in England where the Teacher simply encouaged us to say what needed in an economical and clear way. If there were little errors she would correct them and smile :0) Spelling is my biggest problem and bad typing can amplify errors. There is a trend in English toward a form of Atlantic Speak which is very confusing, since the American Spellings are so different to the English. There ought to be a standardised form adopted by all involved, UK, Ireland, USA, Canada, Oz and New Zealand. More than Grammer this is what makes me mad! Joh F, always enjoy your posts, BTW I think if one gets it said and the reader knows what you intended then the job is well done. |
|
Subject: Apostrophes From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 01 - 03:49 PM Midchuck, you found my pet peeve! I let most grammatical errors go by without correction or comment, but I admit that I had to resist the temptation to use my editing button on every one of the "how many Mudcatter's" threads (for more reasons than one). I'm a law-abiding citizen, and would ordinarily never dream of committing an act of vandalism; but a misplaced apostrophe can make a felon out of me. I confess that I have been known to obliterate offending apostrophes on signs. Most times, I tape a piece of paper over the offense and then call in a complaint, but I have been known to use more destructive means of making my grammatical point. There are some exceptions that complicate things, but you'll be right almost all the time if you follow this rule:
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: GUEST,leila Date: 10 Feb 01 - 03:57 PM I don't know about anyone else, but English is my first language so of course I have no concept of English grammar. They didn't teach that kind of stuff when I went to school. hee hee -leila |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Greyeyes Date: 10 Feb 01 - 04:53 PM Well, it's all been said now. I'm generally okay with apostrophes, but invariably have to correct myself with there, their and they're. I am perfectly aware of the difference, but I have to think about it, and if typing nearly always get it wrong and have to edit. As for pet hate: Supermarket checkouts with signs saying "Less than ten items" when it should be "Fewer than ten items". AAAARRRGGGHHH. I'm a mild mannered man, but it makes me want to dump my basket and go and shop elsewhere. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 01 - 06:29 PM Greyeyes, you'll have to drive "further then" ten miles to get to a supermarket with correct grammar. Just buy your bananas and get the hell out. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Greyeyes Date: 10 Feb 01 - 06:36 PM Actually I don't eat bananas Joe, and in reality I'm so mild mannered I just pay up quietly and don't mention my quibble. Presumably that should read "further than". :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 01 - 09:17 PM Nope - farther than when you want to indicate a greater distance. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Ebbie Date: 10 Feb 01 - 09:33 PM One of the English language anomalies is 'it'. It is a pronoun which means that it can possess something, but when it is not the contraction of 'it is', it is not allowed an apostrophe. It is always its. One of my bug-gers. Ebbie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: poor lonesome boy Date: 10 Feb 01 - 10:06 PM This might just throw a wrench into the whole conversation here, but Mudcatters' would be right, but so would Jones's. Basically, the general rule with possessive plurals is: the way you say it is the way it is. Such as That Jesus' word, or the Leafs' goal came in overtime. ... like I said, as a general rule. Of course, as you can see, my spelling is atroshus (hehe), so, if I'm wrong, may God strike me... a h h h |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Morticia Date: 10 Feb 01 - 10:22 PM What bothers me is not so much the standard of grammer, which is a pernickity science at best, but the standard of spelling in this country...seems to me there is little excuse with so many devices on the market but I see spelling mistakes on restaurant menu cards, bill boards and once, horror of horrors, in a letter sent home from my daughter's school.I despair, I really do. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jeri Date: 10 Feb 01 - 10:46 PM Er, (sorry - I can't resist this), it's "grammar," not "grammer." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: poor lonesome boy Date: 10 Feb 01 - 10:47 PM No kidding Morticia... I work at a newspaper, so I hear from you guys all the time. But, there really is no excuse. I had a letter home from my daughter's school I edited the hell out of. At least it was nursery school. Not much damage done there I guess. Also, to be fair, I feel the Internet should be the last stronghold of bad grammer if there ever was. I never give a second check to anything I write here, do you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: campfire Date: 10 Feb 01 - 10:49 PM You're correct, Jeri. "Grammer" is the old lady in the kitchen, baking cookies. campfire |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jeri Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:10 PM Well, at least I managed to control myself for most of this thread, but when Morty mentioned spelling... Among my other pet peeves, is the phrase "I could care less." If this is true, the person must care about it. Now, how many negatives can you fit in a sentence? I don't never want to see no misplaced apostrophes. Big Joe, I constantly check what I write. It doesn't do any good. I wonder if there are anti-JoeClones who go around inserting typos and re-arranging sentence structure when we're not looking. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: rangeroger Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:13 PM I try to ignore spelling mistakes and misusage most of the time,but living in North Idaho in the middle of the nation's second largest superfund SITE. Gives me some great shots. On fences throughout the area, 1000s of fancy white signs were printed up stating that this was a superfund SIGHT.<>While the area is a lot nicer to look at now, I saved one of the signs for remembrance. rr |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Feb 01 - 11:17 PM I know what you mean, Jeri. I'm really quite good at spelling and grammar, but yet I see all sorts of stupid errors in the things I post here. I think it's government agents in black helicopters who sneak in to twist our words and destroy our credibility. -Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Amos Date: 11 Feb 01 - 01:03 AM One of my pet peeves is the notion that putting punctuation inside quotation marks (which is correct) THEREFORE means you have to do it when so-called quotation marks are used to highlight the usage of a noun as in Jerri's 'thingy' example above. The REASON you put punctuation inside a quotation mark instead of outside is that it is the punctuation OF THE QUOTED THOUGHT. As in, ' "Shut the fuck up!" he explained. '. But when you are offsetting a noun like 'thingie', it is perfectly correct for obvious reasons to use single quotes and put the punctuation outside. Example:
Where did you ever get the idea of calling your dog "Batman"? in sharp contradisitnction to: ""Where are you off to NOW, Batman?" whined Robin. I hope never to be contradicted ont his fine diustinction.... A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Greyeyes Date: 11 Feb 01 - 08:20 AM Morticia, when I worked in Wiltshire a few years ago a batch of library membership cards was produced with library spelled libary, no one noticed for some time, and it was too expensive to destroy them when it was noticed. I still have one, as must thousands of other library members in Wilts. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Morticia Date: 11 Feb 01 - 09:14 AM oooooops.....could I get away with saying I put that one in as an illustration?*BG*I don't tend to check on here too much, as many of you will have noticed, but when a letter is going out from work I am very careful. I once was told it was unreasonable to correct a student of mine for spelling, grammar or punctuation.This in an agency that is supposed to be professional.....needless to say I disagreed, and still do. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jon Freeman Date: 11 Feb 01 - 09:38 AM Snuffy, to expand on your example of contraction, what happens if you were reffering to the quality of the photo's? Do we get "I hope you like my photo's' quality."? Amos, I'm not sure that I understand your post. Are you saying that it would be equally correct to write: Where did you ever get the idea of calling your dog "Batman?" I am probably wrong on this but I would have thought that was questioning the word Batman and if that was the intention, to complete the sentence, we would need another question mark, i.e. Where did you ever get the idea of calling your dog "Batman?"? Jon
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Jeri Date: 11 Feb 01 - 10:40 AM Jon, I think you're wrong on that. According to what Amos said, if what was in the quotation marks was a question on its own, there would be a question mark, but the whole sentence is a question. I don't know why some people choose to walk around with a booger on their nose because they're insulted if someone tells them about it. It amounts to the same thing, doesn't it? I'm still not comfortable criticising people in most situations, but I had a boss who would give me her writing to proofread. She would be unhappy if I didn't find lots of things that could be improved. Her thought seemed to be "Don't let my paper go out of the office like that, because I'll look like I don't know how to write." We all make mistakes when we write, and most people have problems seeing their own, no matter how well they proofread. IMO, it doesn't matter much here at Mudcat; it would be silly to have someone proofread our posts before submitting them. But in a professional environment, it's up to people to cover each other's backs. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Feb 01 - 01:58 PM Apostrophes are also correctly used to pluralize an acronym, and doing that has a dual purpose-- to indicate contraction and to set off the little bitty [s] at the end so it's seeable and not missed. And brackets are often used to set off a word to which one is referrring, instead of quotes, since the quotes are so easily confused with their other usage. Example: [ISP's] may mean either things of the ISP, or multiple Internet Service Providers. That's why some people just want the FAQ, and others want just the FAQs, and still others, FAQ's and FAQs' and..... FAQs's. This can apply to brand names that end in [s], as well, or to business names that are all caps with periods-- in other words, initials. So now we have a type of company called a [Dot Com], and to write down the pural one would find [Dot Coms] looking pretty odd. On emight write, [Dot-Com's} to mean the plural and reflect how it is actually usually said. Actually what would be correct would be: [.com]s or [.com/]s Because there are so many ways the "rules" of grammar may be or are commonly applied and mis-applied, one next needs to consider the slipperier slope of USAGE. Publishers develop their own "house style" rules or adopt a known one such as The Chicago Manual of Style. And I recall several days' wrangling at a Christian publisher where I copy-edited. In addition to the grammar issues, there were many related to usage of things Biblical. To abbr or not to abbr. Bib ref's? Will we always make a writer's words agree with grammar rules, or is some license for personal voice desirable? How about the age-old question of Psalms? Is it going to be cited as Ps. 119, Psalm 119, or Psalms 119? Italic or roman? Oh you don't like Romans, plus you're new in typesetting, you only know Regular? And what about that troublesome Jesus-- is He always going to be capped? It got pretty funny after awhile. "Cap Jesus!" "Yeah, Cap him!" Then there were the denominational differences around the table. Never mind those. I was doing all right until I ran up against the authoritative rule on [comprise], and realized I'd had it wrong. I was so gomorrahfied that a favorite word now had to be used diffferently that I just gave the word up completely, in protest. Now my current peeve is when media people say, "This begs the question, 'Blah blah BLAH?'." Maybe I'm wrong, in which case if you correct me I will be grateful to stop getting so mad when I hear this one. But by my recollection, to [Beg the Question] is not to make a statement or describe a situation that logically calls for a NEW or IMPLIED question to be addressed or debated. It is an error or unfair tactic in rhetorics where the way one addresses a POSED question in a debate, for example, fails to address the actual question being debated while appearing to have addressed it. It means one has left The Question begging, and has camouflaged that fact, to get points, by dressing up one's point in flowery BS. It is not supposed to mean, "Gee, don't it make you wonder about.....?". Then, hyphens. For line breaks, never ser-vice, always serv-ice, because [vice] can be misread as a word on its own, even though normal syllabication conventions break words by syllables. Even there, on this word, opinions divide. [Ser-vice] could be permissable as it is pronounced thus, but not permissible as the word is constructed serve-ice] with the [e] dropped in construction. So confoozing. So the publisher adopts a convention. (When you hire on as a proofreader, the house conventions are given.) And hyphens to make multiple, related words into modifiers-- required in some settings, taboo in others. Meatspace, a compound noun. Single-spaced copy, a modifier by hyphenation. Beautifully-written copy, a correct modifier if the house style says so, or better to be beautifully written according to another publisher's view. My other peeve is editors who impose a rule in such a way that the idiom is lost, in writing that calls for individual expression. When an editor ignores convention about different types of writing and instead sanitizes everything into ONE type, which is Standard English-- it does violence to the creative mind that produced the work. Shudder.... ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 12 Feb 01 - 06:56 AM I think there are many different rules/conventions here, and we're mixing examples unfairly. But I'll have to do some thinking and researching today to get credible sources. (I think it was unfair for Amos to use a question mark.) 1) There is a difference between British/Canadian and American conventions for use of quotes at the end of a sentence. The Brits put a period outside the quotes, the Americans inside. As best I remember, there is a rule for commas and periods and another rule for question marks and exclamation marks. Right now I'm a little confused on Amos' (or is it Amos's) example. Quotes can be used in the punctuation of a direct quote or to set off a single word used in a unique way. Most problems occur when they are at the end of a sentence. 2) The rules for an apostrophe when the word ends in s are not always clear. We have a business here in town called "Chris's Creations," and that's correct. (Notice how I put the comma inside the qotes like a good American?) Since my maiden name ends in double s (let's say Arness for illustration purposes), I used to think I understood how to form possessives when the word ends in s. After seeing the Chis's example above, somebody told me that the rules are different when there is a double s. How do you say Mary Arness' car and how do you say the Arness' car? I'll try to find some examples today. 3) And while we're at it...is there such a word as noone? I never noticed this til I started writing on Mudcat. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: How many..... From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Feb 01 - 12:49 PM Plurals, possessives, and contractions... Tits, tit's, tits', and tit's. As in... 3 tits sat on the wire. The first tit's wing was broken. All 3 tits' feathers were ruffled. I wonder when the last tit's going to fly? And that, folks, is all you need to know. - LH
|