Eminem carrier of folk torch?

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:08 PM

All good insights. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: ruthie-a
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:03 PM

Right, now I'm going to speak as a child. A 13-year-old who hates being regarded as a child, admittedly, but I suppose I am one nevertheless.

I must make myself entirely clear that I loathe Eminem. I don't believe him to be a musician, never mind one worthy of credit. I think he is one of the most abhorrent, mindless idiots that is currently abroad in the charts and I'm sick to the back teeth of my friends trying to drum his 'genius' into my skull. I hate the talentless garbage that he has taken to producing, but I think there are a few misunderstandings here as to the 'child'.

It all depends upon what you think a child is. I'm 13 - most adults would still regard that as childhood. I have learnt nothing from Eminem and he has left no impression on me. Most people that I know from the age of 9 upwards are familiar with the concepts of rape, homophobia and murder, and few children under the age of 9 listen to Eminem. They learn that from the schoolyard and from the programmes they watch on television. They may become more familiar with these issues through Eminem, but they are generally aware that these actions and feelings are wrong. In fact, the adverse reaction to Eminem from the general public enforces how wrong these things are. There are always exceptions to the rule - but we can't blame Eminem for that. It's music.

Eminem also has a powerful turn of phrase. I don't like the things he's saying, but I can appreciate how he is good in his field. A field that's against my beliefs, but it's true.

There. You may disagree, but that's what I think. Most of my friends think that Eminem's one of the Gods' gifts to the pop charts, but I don't. I'm a folk addict, so what I feel about the Eminem-type genre is probably irrelevant. He's still racist, homophobic and sexist, all of which are bad traits in anybody. But that doesn't make him a bad rapper.

Ruthie

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 02:02 PM

The publicity seems to be doing little damage.GB John

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:59 PM

No, I don't think you're wrong. I am just trying to understand why This Particular Performer is getting so much attention when there are Others Like Him and Other Ways that People Can Be Offended and Other Ways that Kids Are Exposed to Nasty Stuff. Music is not the only evil.

But why do the kids like him anyway? I don't get it. Is it because their parents say no you can't have this CD in my house? It ain't because it's got a good beat and you can dance to it.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:53 PM

It's the assumption you talked about in your first paragraph that makes it different. Doesn't make it right but it does make it different. Music history is filled with songwriters who have strong feelings about someone or some group and they decide to write a song about it. How many love songs are true stories??? How many hate songs, disaster songs, or sad songs are true stories? How do you tell the difference? Some pretty intelligent people in this forum will probably tell you that they can't, at least not all the time. If that is true, what's to make me think that my kids will be able to? Therefore, I have to assume the worst and take the side of those who think that hate and anger are behind it all.

Frank

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:48 PM

I think any kid who has sung "I'm gonna kill my momma" thousands of times is far more likely to do it than a kid who hasn't. Maybe I'm wrong. So sue me.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:37 PM

Okay, fair enough. Lemme throw this one out, then.

Songs are different, but they're not different. What I mean by that is, while a lot of people write songs from some deep personal experience, some people write songs as fiction, just like novelists or screenwriters do. We seem to naturally assume that the person singing the song IS the person in the song, but that's not necessarily true, anymore than the author of Silence of the Lambs is himself Hannibal Lecter.

Singers can be actors too. Garth Brooks isn't the man driving the semi into the hotel room and Lyle Lovett isn't the man with the 45 shooting up the church and Doc Watson ain't the man who killed little Sadie in the first degree. What is it that makes Eminem different? Because the kids like him? Kids like Garth too. Because he's already a jerk and this just gives us one more reason not to like him?

I really truly am just curious.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:37 PM

The interesting thing is that Eminem made a name for himself by rapping about how if he says awful things people will buy his albums and talk about him. Most of the time when he says the most offensive things he precedes it or follows it up with a comment that is basically "Can you believe I just said that". I don't think people listen to him because they want to kill people any more than I believe people watch the TV show "COPS" becauyse they want to see justice. Its entertainment through shock and hyperbole...

Many of his lyrics are also designed to remind his fans its just a song...don't believe everything he says. That's the whole point of one of his songs (Stan) where a fan writes in that he identifies with Eminem and eminem encourages him to look on the good things in life and seek help.

The reason people are up in arms his records are selling, there are countless performers and celebrities who say and DO things much worse than him and songs with violence have always been around...

what about the folk song where the wife feeds her husband marrow bones to make him blind so she can drown him in the river...

Each time samebody condemns eminem, 100's of people buy his record....and that's what he's been saying in his songs all along

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:27 PM

Murderers in the movies and on TV are generally seen as the "bad guys". So in fact I see it as a natural extension of that to portray Eminem as the "bad guy" since by his music he has put himself there. you bring up a good point about movies like Gladiator that sensationalize violence but they seem to be able to package it in a way that puts it in the third person. The person who wrote Gladiator didn't write in a part for him/herself. Society tends to accept those things (rightly or wrongly) a lot better than a singer/songwriter who's work and style seems to be based on anger and hatred. As much as I believe in his right to make his own "music" I must admit my 9 and 12 year old daughters are not permitted to own his CD. In fairness to myself, I won't be taking them to see Gladiator either!! :)

Good topic, makes you think....

Frank

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:25 PM

Songs are different Kim. If we didn't think that we wouldn't be here on this website.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM

Maybe not Alex, but they do see rape and hatred and murder over and over and over on television, including the news.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM

No. He is just an idiot.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:19 PM

I have to admit that I don't "get" it. I like a lot of music with words that might offend some, even myself, but I still like the music... in this case, though, what I hear isn't pretty, so even if it had nice words, I wouldn't like it. I have to agree with Kim's original wondering what it is with THIS particular offensive artist that has everyone so up in arms... I like murder ballads even though I don't like murder. I like church music even though I don't like organized religion. And so on. I guess to me nothing has to be a symbol, maybe? But it can be if I want it to be?

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:15 PM

How many teenagers put Gladiator in their walkman and listen to it over and over and over and over? Pop music is indoctrination. We're scared when kids are being indoctrinated into rape and hatred and murder. That's all.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:13 PM

Y'all realize, right, that I'm just playin devils advocate here, tryin to foster a semi-intellectual discussion. :)

Thunder Rolls did get a lot of hype but I never heard One Single Peep about Mama's in the Graveyard, Papa's in the Pen.

Matt and Amergin I think you are both right.

Now - let me throw another fly in the ointment here. We can see people murdered in all manner of ways on TV or at the movies anytime of day. Why is it worse when it's a 4-minute soundbite? Eminem's up for Album of the Year, Gladiator's up for Picture of the Year. Y'all see Gladiator? I did. Good movie, lots of disgusting parts. Is the Motion Picture Academy glorifying violence by nominating this movie? Is NARAS doing the same by nominating Eminem?

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM

I heard his mother sued him, though.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:51 PM

Matt, I don't think Eminem ever killed anyone. He is a craven coward. The fact that he beats on his wife, proves that. His cowardice is proven even more when he sang that song about wishing that she would kill herself. Like I said above is that he is just an immature juvenile trying to make a big name for himself through the easy path of notriety...

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:45 PM

I suppose "Cop Killah" would be a nice murder ballad as well...

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:44 PM

Because in Eminem's case, he's probably speaking from personal experience about killing, where a more reputable artist would simply be singing a song.

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:41 PM

If you remember, Garth Brooks Thunder Rolls brought on lots of criticism too....but then most of the time people don't ever listen to the song they are protesting...the same thing goes with movies....How much do you want to bet that the vast majority of those who protested "Last Temptation of Christ" actually sat down and watched it?

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:37 PM

So then, aside from his crappy music, is it his insufferable personality that's causing all this fuss? If Garth Brooks was a jerk would the women's groups get upset with him too? I won't argue Eminem is a pig. What I'm trying to figure out is why one murder song will draw criticism that others don't.

On another note, I believe I read in the news awhile back that Eminem's wife dropped the charges and reconciled with him.

(I hope Elton kicks his ass too!)

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:33 PM

All he is is a juvenile trying to make a big name for himself....

Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM

Kim, Eminem is a pig. His songs spew hatred of women and homosexuals. He sings about killing his wife, raping his mother, and executing gays. This piece of crap doesn't even deserve the title of "music" let alone "folk". His wife, who's name is Kim as well, called 911 one night when he was beating her. He later used the call in a song on his album called "Kim" and rapping about wishing she'd kill herself. In a Rolling Stone article he once said "Sometime for fun I'd like to kick a pregnant woman in the stomach". Tonight he's scheduled to sing with Elton John, even though his songs are loaded with anti-gay sentiments. Frankly, I hope Elton slams the little twit's head in the piano.

--Matt

Subject: Eminem carrier of folk torch?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM

Those of you who listen to NPR may have heard the story yesterday afternoon about several groups protesting the Grammy Awards tonight because of Eminem's scheduled appearance. I am only vaguely familiar with his work but I understand many people are offended by it, like they were with Alice Cooper in the 70s and Ozzy Osbourne in the 80s and all the rap guys in the 90s blahblahblahblahblah.

Apparently there's a song on his album wherein a man murders his wife. Of course the women's groups are all over this. A record company exec argued that this particular "song" fit into the centuries-old tradition of the Murder Ballad. A women's activist argued back that at the time these old murder ballads were written, a woman was her husband's property and the law would let him get away with anything.

Mister and I were talking about this and he brought up the point that in a good many of the old songs, the murderer is either a)sorry for what he's done; b)taken to prison; or c) both. Sometimes the murderer even kills himself. The point being, anyhow, that the man doesn't necessarily get away with murder in these old tunes.

I haven't heard the piece in question but I am roundly curious as to why it would arouse so much brewhaha, when no one made a peep about Lyle lovett's "The Lights of LA County," where a man shoots his old flame and her groom at the altar, or Garth Brooks' tune about the man driving his semi into the hotel, killing his cheating wife, or countless versions of "Knoxville Girl."

What do y'all have to say?