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Eminem carrier of folk torch?
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 08 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: tiggerdooley - PM Date: 26 Feb 01 - 08:38 AM ................... ................... ................... ...... Wonder what we'll think of Eminem in forty years time? We are almost half way there and he's still around, still receiving critical praise and still making lots of money. DC |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,Claire M Date: 07 Oct 20 - 04:02 PM I know this is v old -- but i loved Eminem. Rhythm And Poetry. Rhythm As Poetry. But that song ‘Stan’ terrified me. I can’t even hear the real song ‘Thank You’ w/o my mood changing, sadly for the worse. I *am* obsessive, like Stan. I get depressed, like Stan, & music helps. I know Stan isn’t real, but that song still terrifies me. I couldn’t take the way out that he did. I physically can’t. I would if I could, but if I could I wouldn’t *want to*. Why would I want to make myself *that* miserable?? [_¯$_¯(_¯ ?° ?? ?°_¯)_¯$_¯] |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Jeri Date: 26 Feb 01 - 05:36 PM Joe, I don't think Art is ever vulgar and repulsive, but some of his puns are pushing it. Speaking of which... Leprechaun, I said I'd found that song (it's talking blues - isn't that rap?) instead of the one I was looking for. It's credited to Woody in the DT, but Art Thieme wrote it. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Matt_R Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:49 PM My words exactly! |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Kim C Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:38 PM 2 Live who? |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Steve Latimer Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:24 PM Amen Matt R. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: John Routledge Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:21 PM EMINEM'S P.R people have done a brilliant job. This is post no. 100+. Cheers Geordie Broon |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Amergin Date: 26 Feb 01 - 01:08 PM You do apparently, Matt.....God, I remember in High School everyone was singing that stupid Two Live song....at least the guys were....well, almost everyone..... |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 26 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM Looking for meaning in eminem songs strikes me as closely akin to sifting cowpies for diamonds. Her's the sieve - if you find a diamond let me know. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Mooh Date: 26 Feb 01 - 12:24 PM Joe, I wonder if that "deeper message" is intentional. I doubt it, and therein lies the problem for me. Inciting violence without a cause is hateful and misguided. With a cause might be understandable even if I wouldn't personally agree with the tactic. Frankly, I think the guy gets too much credit for thinking and not enough blame for stupidity. IMHO. Peace. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 26 Feb 01 - 08:41 AM That's just it. We WON'T think of him. I mean, who REALLY remembers 2 Live Crew anymore? |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: tiggerdooley Date: 26 Feb 01 - 08:38 AM You can't beat Gershwin and Porter! But the priest was right about that anguish and alienation stuff. That Em dude does seem a little messed up, but then so were some of the greatest. Wonder what we'll think of Eminem in forty years time? |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Feb 01 - 04:17 AM I don't think I've ever heard a song by Eminem. It was interesting this morning to hear the priest mention Eminem's lyrics in his sermon. I could see the kids in church perk up and listen. The priest said there is harshness and violence in the lyrics, but there's a deeper message - a cry of anguish about the indignity and alienation people suffer. I guess I'd have to study the lyrics to see if I agree, and I don't know if I'd do that. However, I think there's a point. Art can seem vulgar and repulsive - but at the same time, it can be an attempt to express the anguish the artist is experiencing. I think I prefer pretty songs. Hart, Gershwin, Mercer, and Cole Porter wrote lyrics more to my liking. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,SeanM, who's cookie keeps erasing itself Date: 26 Feb 01 - 03:09 AM A Folk Torch is just like a regular one, 'cept noone can stop arguing over whether or not it's a real torch, and the torch of that guy over there who died thirty years ago was a better example, and none of these new torches are anything like what they should be. *g* M |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST Date: 26 Feb 01 - 02:27 AM What in hell is a 'folk torch'? |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: tiggerdooley Date: 25 Feb 01 - 02:17 PM Of course he says things that we don't agree with, but it's still music, it's still a form of expression, and he still has the right to perform. Besides, he raps so fast that if the likes of us didn't go printing it out, the kids wouldn't have a chance to take it to heart!!! Just ignore him if you don't like him, he's having us all on. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Feb 01 - 01:53 PM Thanks, Alice. That chunk of "lyrics" does make the other look like poetry in comparison. Guess what? If the "times are a-changin'" to that kind of sentiment, leave me out of it. But I don't believe it....there are kids his age who actually have something intelligent and positive to say. We only encourage his kind of garbage by making excuses for it. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Alice Date: 25 Feb 01 - 01:06 PM oops, I said sing about - should have said he "talks about" his own hate. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Alice Date: 25 Feb 01 - 12:38 PM Well, this is an example of Eminem lyrics. He doesn't sing about other people's hate, he sings about his own hate. To sing about hate and violence (as in folk songs, C&W songs), is different than singing to encourage and brag about hate and violence. Judge for yourself:
You faggots keep eggin me on |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: tiggerdooley Date: 25 Feb 01 - 09:15 AM Oh yeah, and don't do drugs! |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: tiggerdooley Date: 25 Feb 01 - 09:00 AM Music is all about personal opinion, Lonesome. No, he ain't Dylan, and by the same token Dylan ain't Eminem. Dylan was relevant for the 'kids' in his 'time', and the same goes for Eminem now. The times, Lonesome, they are a changin', so keep up. As for the lyrical sample you give - well that's some serious social commentary, actually. We're not raising our kids with any shred of a moral conscience, and we're blaming it on some easy scapegoats AND, we're helping them make a lot of dough in the process. Cool! |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Feb 01 - 12:30 AM Get aware, wake up, get a sense of humor Quit tryin to censor music, this is for your kid's amusement But don't blame me when lil' Eric jumps off of the terrace You shoulda been watchin him - apparently you ain't parents ... And last week, I seen a Schwarzenegger movie where he's shootin all sorts of these motherfuckers with a uzi I sees three little kids, up in the front row, screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?" And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear ... How many retards'll listen to me and run up in the school shootin when they're pissed at a teach-er, her, him, is it you is it them? "Wasn't me, Slim Shady said to do it again!" Well, it sure as hell ain't Dylan. In fact, if this is the best he's got, I'd rate the average Mudcat Song Challenge entry about three notches above it. Sorry...if Elton had any balls at all he'd have kicked his ass instead of singing a duet with him and giving him a soul-hug, but I guess that's the music bu$ine$$.
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: ray bucknell Date: 24 Feb 01 - 08:14 PM I think it was Louis Armstrong who said, "All music is folk music. I never heard no horse sing a song." |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Alice Date: 24 Feb 01 - 05:49 PM oops, spelling, that should be Allen Ginsberg, not Allan. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: tiggerdooley Date: 24 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM It's more than speaking and it's not quite singing. "Ooooh!" That's why it's got it's own name - it's rap, and he's darn good at it. He's not just talking, he's pattering out some amazing rhythms and rhymes with his clever choice of words. I don't want to over-intellectualize it, but seeing as we're all picking it apart, then I'm gonna have to. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Alice Date: 24 Feb 01 - 05:28 PM Well, Lepus Rex, remember the stereotype of beatniks reciting their poetry to bongo rhythm accompaniment in coffee houses? Remember Allan Ginsberg reciting poetry to the drone of an Indian shruti box? It was even called "beat", but it was still poetry. Then, the urban form of poetry that we call rap came to the awareness of the recording industry, and geez, you couldn't call it poetry, that's too intellectual, too uncool, too hard to sell. It's my opinion that marketing people decided to call it music instead of poetry. Even though it is spoken with musical accompaniment soundtracks, backup singers, etc., speaking is not singing, poetry is poetry, and I'm sorry the recording industry chose to call it music instead of what it is - kids would think poetry is "cool" if they had. But, poetry is egghead, music is cool, so it is called music in order to sell more of it. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Lepus Rex Date: 24 Feb 01 - 01:56 AM Yeah, that equally hilarious the first several times people said it on this thread, Mav. :P And Alice, ok, that's your opinion. But what about the, oh, I don't know, 99% of rappers who would consider what they do to be "music" or "singing?" Are they wrong? And at what point would you consider their work to be "musical?" What would the artist have to be doing differently? ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,MAV Date: 23 Feb 01 - 11:07 PM Folks, The media has spelled his name wrong. It's actually............................. ENEMA!!!!! Rap is crap.
mav out |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Kim C Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:24 PM One of my favorite Marty Robbins songs is "They're Hanging Me Tonight," about a fella who kills his "pretty Flo and that good for nothin man." Just for the record, I have no opinion on rap. But I like hearing everyone else's. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,tiggerdoooley Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:19 PM "I searched 'till I found them/ Then I cursed at the sight/ Of their sleeping shadows in the cold neon light/ In the dark morning silence/ I placed the gun to her head/ She wore red dresses but now she lay dead..." Dwight Yoakam, 'Buenas Noches from a Lonely Room', 1988. Ban this little punk! Who does he think he is, polluting our children's minds with this mysoginistic filth. Hatred and violence have no place in music....... (Look for a similar scenario in the song 'Guilty Conscience' by Eminem. He handles it much the same.) |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Alice Date: 23 Feb 01 - 04:01 PM I call it a genre of poetry, including talking blues, but I still don't call it music; music may be in the background, but I stand by my opinion. We have had previous thread debates on the subject of rap, here's one - Is Rap Folk? click here Just because I say something isn't music, that it's poetry, doesn't mean I am invalidating it as an artform. It's just a different art than music. Poetry with musical accompaniment, then. Mouth music is not the same as speaking. Rap is speaking, even when music is added or singing is interspersed with the poetry. You're not going to change my mind on this, so let me have my opinion and you can have yours. Alice |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Kim C Date: 23 Feb 01 - 03:50 PM I've heard Michael Martin Murphey say that "Chisholm Trail" is a rap song. To prove his point he actually performed it that way. It was a stitch! :) |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:11 AM It looked like it, Grab! He was playing bass and singing backup...I'd love to have heard him do some acoustic stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Steve Latimer Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:04 AM I once heard someone say that Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues was the first Rap song. Interesting thought. "Twenty years of schooling and they put you on the day shift". |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Grab Date: 23 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM Cheers for the link, Jim. For those who didn't follow the link, the song after "Stan" is called "Who knew" - a few extracts...
... Still reckon the guy's got nothing useful to say? I personally don't like his style of music that much, but he can write. Dylan couldn't sing either (still can't), but he wrote some fine lyrics. Incidentally Matt, Moby is a fine guitar player - he did some acoustic bits on a live show over in the UK last year. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:59 AM Yeah, it was Aerosmith with Run-DMC, they remade it back around 1988. Though I must say that the part that Run-DMC rapped on just didn't have the same character as when Aerosmith did it solo. Remember Kim, let the CD play to hear the secret track "Life Is For Living". |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Grab Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:51 AM |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Kim C Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:47 AM Remember Aerosmith? "Walk This Way"? Rap if ever I heard it. Seems like one of the rap groups actually did a version of this song not too awfully long ago. I have heard it argued before that rap is a type of folk music because it supposedly expresses the values/concerns/etc. of a particular group of people. I don't know enough to agree or disagree with that. I just got the Coldplay CD. I really dig it. :) |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: GUEST,UB Dan Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:35 AM What about the old tradition of talking blues...is that music. I'd certainly like to think so. As for the boasting and bragging, rap grew out of a sort of battle of the DJ's. In the same way that groups would compete in break dancing, rap was a sort of competition. Most of the time when a rapper is boasting and bragging he is boasting about his skills as a rapper...of course gangsta rap also involves boasting about virility. Think of each time Ulysses (greek not irish) each time he introduces himself he lists all of his accomplishments and tells everybody how great he is, and every time he meets a woman....and its all done in rhyme |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Lady McMoo Date: 23 Feb 01 - 05:38 AM My daughter has a fair number of rap records, none of which are "gangsta rap". Far from not being music, I'd go as far as to say some are excellent and enjoyable and just as much a valid musical form as "folk" (whatever that might be - (;>)) But as for Eminem, he's just a plonker... mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Lepus Rex Date: 23 Feb 01 - 01:12 AM "Rap is not music" ??? See, that's just silly. Who are you, or who am I, to judge what is and what is not music? Maybe you don't understand this music, but that's because of your own limitations, not the music's. I listen to music from... say, Badakhshan. To me, it sounds beautiful. To someone in Dargh, it might sound beautiful. To some Eminem fan from Wichita, it probably sounds like some old crone, screeching inarticulately and slapping a drum. It's probably not the Eminem fan's thing, right? He might be heard to say something like: "That's not music, that's shit. Some old woman with no talent." But is she? Perhaps she is one of the most respected singers and dâyra players in her region. So, is he, this Eminem fan from Wichita, correct when he says "that's not music?" No. He's just ignorant of anything that's not urban and American. So his opinion on this old woman from Badakhshan isn't important to her, to me, to you, or to the world. He is wrong. Don't be an Eminem fan from Wichita. ---Lepus Rex (up the irons:P) |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Alice Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:59 PM I still say rap is not music. Speaking to a beat with words that rhyme is not a song. I saw a bit of the Elton John and the "em" guy performance last night. As he mumbled into the mic I thought, "That ain't workin...". Anyway, what Elton John was doing and what Eminem was doing seemed so incongruous, they didn't belong in the same performance. It seemed to be someone's idea to get more people to watch a rather dull awards show. Knowing many people who have been through cult experiences of different kinds and are now trying to get back their sanity and sense of self, I do know that alot of mental programming can be done with words that rhyme to a beat repeated over, and over, and over... To the vulnerable person, it fills a void and makes them feel empowered to be able to identify with someone like eminem. I remember rebelling when I was young by singing "All you need is love" while bombs dropped in Viet Nam. I'm too aware of people who rebel against the older generation by glorifying criminal behavior. I see Eminem's pop success as some rap industry people making lots of money, nothing really about free speech, although that is their excuse for producing and promoting it. Elvis could sing. He made music. Eminem doesn't. He just spouts off for the shock value. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Matt_R Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:19 PM Coldplay. Travis. Lifehouse. Check them out. And smile. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: leprechaun Date: 22 Feb 01 - 10:15 PM Jeri - I looked at that Woody Guthrie song you linked. The last verse mentions Mike Tyson, who probably wasn't even born before Woody Guthrie died. Somebody's messing with that song. In Woody's book, he wrote, "Never trust a smiling cop." I can't deny the artistry of Eminem's "Stan," on the album or with Elton John at the Emmy's. What pisses me off about Eminem and most rappers is the arrogant, pugnacious attitude. Every rap song seems to spew out this "I am the baddest and I'll kick your ass" attitude. I guess that pisses me off because I happen to know that I really am the baddest and I will kick your ass, but only if you force me to. I don't feel the need to threaten or intimidate or insult people or bruit it about that I have this vicious animal in me just waiting to get out. I trust that animal to come out when I need it, but I would feel unmanly if I couldn't contol it. And I think it's unmanly to constantly present that disrespectful, angry, intimidating attitude to the world. I think it's sick to get off on frightening people. And most rap songs seem to revel in frightening people. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: artbrooks Date: 22 Feb 01 - 09:37 PM "carrier of folk torch"? Visualize {index finger stuck down throat}...or don't if you'd rather not. It's a business, and if nobody buys his stuff, he'll either change or go away. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Feb 01 - 07:05 PM Funny that so much discussion has taken place already and nobody has posted any lyrics or any links to them. Well, here are two: Eminem Song Lyrics Source: New Eminem Lyrics eminem lyrics Here's the song called "Stan," which eminem and Elton John performed at the Grammys last night. I believe Elton sang the chorus, the lyrics of which are given in italics here, and eminem did the rest. Here's the other site's transcription of "Stan" |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Jim the Bart Date: 22 Feb 01 - 06:43 PM Matt - I meant that he isn't a killer, he is an artist; whether a good one or not is anyone's opinion. Last summer I sat down with my sister-in-law's step-son (got that?) who was listening to some pretty radical stuff in the rap/death metal vein. Eminem was the only one I can remember specifically. To make a long story short, I just wanted to listen to try to figure out if this stuff was truly evil or just a bunch of hooey. What struck me was a spoken "disclaimer" of sorts that Eminem has on the front of his song killer. He says that this stuff is just his music and that you shouldn't mistake it for reality. It's the same kind of acknowledgment of theatricality that Kiss showed when they would do their bow at the end of a concert. Sure his stuff is hate-filled; but what people who don't listen miss is that it mostly the kind of self-loathing, angst riddled sh*t that seems to connect for a lot of teenagers. Take the song he did last night on the Grammies. He's speaking for a lot of unwanted, unloved kids and he's doing it quite eloquently. He's talking about the false hero-worship that a lot of black tee-shirted latch-key kids have been lugging around with them. And the disillusionment that they get back in return. Who else is even acknowledging that these kids exist before they decide to blow up their school? The question people should be asking after last night is not "why is this guy on the Grammies?" It should be "why does this music connect with so many young people?" I think that the vocal on the recording of the song that Moby did last night (the part sang by the woman singer, who's name I don't know) was a sample of an old blues tune from the archives. It's almost as scary as Ralph Stanley singing "Oh, Death" in "Brother, Where Art Thou?". later, all Bart |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Matt_R Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:45 PM Jeri, Moby is just Moby! Lol! And he's just one guy...the bald, rather unseeming gent in the jeans & sweatshirt. He never sings or anything...he's more of DJ-like mixer Techo-god, like The Chemical Brothers or Fatboy Slim. His latest album "Play" has a lot of techno versions of old blues recordings. Moby is a really intelligent guy if you ever get to hear him speak. And I love his fashion-sense...my kinda guy. Bart...I'm not sure what you mean about me being "wrong" about Eminem. I'd don't like him, and there's no two ways about it. Seems theres a lot of Eminem-defending on this thread...I'm not sure why I get such heat over Oasis... Oh well. |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Jeri Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM Bart - well, they had Blue Man Group out there, who are sort of grape colored. Sure it was on purpose! Did you think I just sort flashed back to a different group and "Grape" slipped out? That's what happened. Now, what was the name of the song, please? |
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Subject: RE: Eminem carrier of folk torch? From: Jim the Bart Date: 22 Feb 01 - 05:31 PM Jeri - you were kidding when you added "Grape", right? Another "pop" star, pushing the limits of the older generation's tolerance. Elvis. Jerry Lee. Mick Jagger. Jim Morrison. Iggy Stooge. Alice Cooper. Ozzy Osbourne. Now it's Kid Rock, Snoop Dog & Eminem. The thing that really bothered me last night (other than some of the "fashion")was Steely Dan winning for best album. A great victory for the old, safe and familiar. Also for the irrelevant. Flatulent, watered-down soul/jazz muzick. Matt - you're wrong about Eminem but right about Radiohead. "Kid A" is strong stuff. Bart |
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