Origins of The Wild Rover

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:50 AM

Hi Bruce O!

Glad to see you back!

Was Frank Purslow right?

I suspect that the Irish song tradition is less anchored in print than the English song tradition. Less money was probably a factor, along with lower literacy and, perhaps, a greater respect for oral tranmission.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:39 AM

Hi Les B!

As Bruce O indicates above, John F. Poole, a Dubliner, wrote "Tim Finegan's Wake" (sic) in New York in the early 1860s. He fashioned it after a popular concert saloon song, "A Fine Ould Irish Gentleman."

Poole died, ultimately, from injuries sustained from falling off a ladder. Truth is stranger than fiction.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Norfolk
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 03:54 AM

The Broads to be exact. I note with some curiousity that there was and reamains a great Fiddling tradition there and I am not surprised that fine songs can be found in.

Information

Thomas Hardy lived in Dorset ( County ) England, again I am not surprised to learn his family collected Folk Music. BTW Thomas played as well as wrote. The area once hosted 'Fiddle' bands which included the 'Alto Fiddle' now rarely if ever seen, much less played.

Ireland. A great location for collecting and there are many fine tunes in the Tradition.

I find the attempt to 'Nationalise' songs and tunes in the British Isles fraught with complication, since travellers often brought stuff from one place to another with ease. It is still the case today.

Who in Ireland that first hears 'John BarleyCorn' will not be amazed, and who in England that first hears 'The Foggy Dew' will not be amazed?

I could have chosen a Scottish song or a Welsh one but I think the point is well made.

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Wotcha
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 02:22 AM

Note the sea chantey "The Holy Ground" which sounds very Irish but is -- according to Stan Hugill -- a borrowed version of "Swansea Town" and thus Welsh ...
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 12:36 AM

Thomas the Rhymer, your rhymes are poor, but not nearly so bad as your grossly exaggerated political propanda. This isn't the place for that kind of stuff, as has been noted on the Mudcat Forum many times before.

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 12:09 AM

"Finigan's Wake" was by Poole. He's only one of a group of Irish songwriters that congregated around Tony Pastor's (forgot name) big concert hall in New York in the mid 19th century, where the entertainment was Irish centered.

PS to note above. See history of "Callino" in file BMADD on my website (under broadside ballad tunes) it got renamed "In summer time" about 1584 and was often used for ballads for over a century under it's new title. It got attached to Carroll Malone's "The Croppy Boy" (litterary one, not folk one) soon after it was written (1843). It remained in use for hymns in the Wester Isle of Scotland into the 20th century.

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 12:04 AM

It seems that the brittish imperialists
Again saved the day with their printers and lists
And so while they tortured the Irish and Scots
Such good taste in culture; to have the 'have nots'...
ttr

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Les B
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:50 PM

Liam's Brother - can you elaborate on Finnegan's Wake being written in New York, please.

I discovered a few years ago that the song was sung (probably in the 1870's) by one of leaders of the vigilantes who rightfully or wrongly (depending on which history book you read) cleaned out Montana's outlaws in the 1860's.

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:41 PM

Note that there are 7 issues of "Wild Rover" on the Bodley Ballads website and multiple copies of an 8th. All are by English printers, and it's no later than 1838.

Dan Milner, note that Frank Purslow was quick to identify any unknown good tune as Irish. He thought that's were most good English folk tune came from.

Origins ai going to remain a vexing questions for a long time. There is circumstantial evidence that the English knew and revised many Scots songs (Broom of Cowdens by c 1625-30). However they were revisted to fit contmporary tastes in England and one can pin down very well exactly what is Scots in some of them (Barbara Allan). Evidence is much more scant on Irish songs. "The Irish Lady" in the Dancing Master from 1651 is certainly Irish, because a version of it pops up later as "Teagues Ramble" The Teague song is Anglo-Irish and found on English broadsides, but the tune is not found in Enlish music sources. All Irish exept the earliest as "Nell of Connaught" in Oswald's CPC.

It's pretty obvious by looking in 18th century Irish songbook that the English in Ireland followed English tastes. It's difficult but far from impossible to find any (Anglo-)Irish songs. Gaelic was rare and it's phonetic Gaelic of extremly variable spelling that we get for tune titles, not songs, although researchs have found some of the original songs, but not from printed Irish sources. Gaelic speaking Irish weren't printers.

Give credit the the English for good taste; they devoured what was good no matter where it came from, and got some version published.

However, it seems to me that no matter the origin, it was to a large extent the British ballad printers that kept a lot of songs going, at least to the early 19th century (I only know of a MacGee as an Irish printer in the 18th century, and so far as I know all extant copies of his songs are in Harvard's collection).

There's a list of Irish broadsides in the huge Lauriston Castle Collection of NLS, compiled by Emily Lyle and published in (Eigse Cheol Tire) 'Irish Folk Music Studies', but all seem to be 19th century. The Bodleian Library also has a collection of ballads in Gaelic, but I don't know if they're Scots or Irish (and I've forgotten to look for them on the Bodley Ballads website.)

I'm afraid the battle of origins is going to go on forever, and we'll never find much solid evidence to prove anything.

Note that in a file on my website, I've made a case for an (Anglo-)Irish song being known in England in the late 16th century, "Derry's Fair" (a quarter century before Derry was given to London to became Londonderry). Also the tune "Braganderry" seems to be an undoubted corruption of a Gaelic title. Bragh and Breagh can mean several things and that part is far from certain (probably connected with false/toy/imitation or something close), and an daire is 'of oak' (Derry was named from it's oaks).

Take a look in my Scarce songs 1 file to see an Irish song and tune, "Pretty Peggy of Darby, Oh" that quickly disappeared in Ireland, only to turn up everywhere else, and it's was use as late as the civil war for a song on the battle of the Monitor and Merrimac (Song on Lib. of Congress recording- full text, naming same tune in Levy collection). (Bonnie Lass of Fyvie O". Well known "Scewball" has turned up in Ireland only in recent years, (and 18th century if not 17th) "Druimin Dubh Deelis" survived mostly in North America (Scarce Songs 1 again).

More than enough, I fear. Bye

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:19 PM

Excellent point, Mr. McGrath! Internal rhyming and a "freer" (actually different standard of) rhyming are dead giveaways that a song was written by an Irishman but there are plenty of Irish songs that don't employ this.

Hey, maybe it is from Norfolk, I don't know. I would not be unhappy with that. Can it be proved though?

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:13 PM

A good clue to songs which originate in Ireland is when they have complicated internal rhyme schemes and para-rhymes, and words clearly put in for the sound rather than the strict meaning. And the good old Norfolk Rover doesn't have any of that malarkey.

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 05:42 PM

The statement "some English language 'Irish ballads' are descendents of old English ballads" is literally quite correct. (You would have to add Scots ballads to that also.) But which ballads? Certainly, there is nothing in the old broadside copies of "The Wild Rover" I've viewed that makes the song unequivocably English or Irish or any nationality. Yes, many songs are known in a few countries with the origin long obscured. "The Cruel Mother" is not indigenous to Ireland but "The Wild Rover?" I don't think you can say where "The Wild Rover" originated. I agree with Martin Ryan that's it's just great it did survive - even if it is done to death. God bless those broadside hawkers!

Regarding the Irish languague, I'm looking at a map of the distribution of Irish speakers in Ireland in 1851. It shows that more than 75% of the population were not Irish speakers in an area to the east of a line roughly from Letterkenny, through Roscommon Town to Limerick City, and through Kilkenny to Waterford. I have nothing older than that but it is interesing however.

Now, about "Tim Finegan's Wake" - did you know it was written in New York City?

All the best,
Dan

Subject: The Wild Rover
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:47 PM

Now I've been a folk singer for many's a year (drunken slurr) "Can ya *hic* shhling the Wild Rover"
Is all that I hear
So I think I'll retire to live on the dole
Where I won't have to play The Wild Rover no more!!

;-)

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: wes.w
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:43 PM

Dan-
Irish 'expert' friends say that some English language 'Irish ballads' are descendents of old English ballads, in contrast to the wholly Irish Sean Nos.
Perhaps that's a part of the story of why you think they are Irish too. But I'm sure that music like this has been going back and forth between these islands for hundreds of years, just like Ian C says.
For instance, Thomas Hardy, the novelist, had tune books containing lots of English, Irish and Scots tunes, written out by his ancestors, ordinary country people, before the Great Famine.

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:35 PM

Basically, the further back you go in time, the more you have to assume that songs in English moved into, rather than out of Ireland . Lots of reasons: the strength of the Irish language , relatively limited literacy in English, location of printers etc. IanC is right that many of the songs effectively became a common pool with local variations.

There often seems to be a tendency to assume that songs are Irish in origin - because they survived longest in Ireland, in oral tradition. But of course, it doesn't follow! We should be thankful that the damn things DID survive - and not be too anxious to claim their origin. Such details are worth teasing out for the insights they give us into the songs and the societies from which they emerged but in the end - songs are for singing!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:21 PM

I was told that it was an English Folk songs, and then it went over to Ireland and almost became an unoffical national anthem.

I also heard of the song in Australia, where there's a different version.

Tom

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: IanC
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:00 PM

Dan

The more obvious - and correct - explanation is that many of these songs are common to all the English speaking peoples and have been for a long time.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:53 AM

About 1970, The English Folk Dance & Song Society came out with a series of books with songs from the Hammond & Gardiner manuscripts. I noticed that there were a lot of Irish songs in them: Marrow Bones, The Wonton Seed, The Constant Lovers and The Foggy Dew.

A explanation (which I recall was made somewhere in one of the books) is that many of the hawkers of broadsides were Irish. Maybe they were Famine refugees. In addition the Great Famine (1847 - 1853), there were a number of other famines in the 19th century.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:17 AM

The real irony is that it appears to have been written for the temperance movement - and became a drinking song!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: IanC
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:10 AM

Hi

The Dubliners' version came from Ewan McColl & Peggy Seeger's "The Singing Island", published in 1960. The song was collected in 1953 (I think) from Sam Larner in Norfolk.

Broadside versions of the song exist from circa 1800 at least and there are other variant versions collected in various parts of England and also (I think) Ireland this century.

Cheers!
Ian

PS there's lots of other threads about this one, put Wild Rover into the filter and set for 2 years!

Subject: Origins of The Wild Rover
From: Albatross
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:39 AM

To, those interested in the origins of folk tunes and songs: The famous song: The Wild Rover sung by The Dubliners and many others,much loved (and hated) and often requested song is commonly referred to as "Ireland's second national anthem". It was noted down by Cecil Sharp in about 1900 in Norfolk, Eastern England. Does anyone know if the song originally came from Norfolk? Maybe it was just one version that was collected of a song that was universal at that time. The text doesn't really give much clue to it's origin although one could easily believe that the wild rover would be Irish. Regards, Albatross (a keen supporter of Irish music who grew up in Norfolk)

Subject: Lyr Add: WILD ROVER (NO NAY NEVER)
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 04 Sep 98 - 12:32 AM

Click for related thread

---

A couple of extra verses for this old standard, being the third-last and second-last verses. Goodness knows whether my HTML bold will work.

This is the way I first learned this song.

WILD ROVER (NO NAY NEVER)

I've been a wild rover for many a year
And I spent all my money on whiskey and beer,
And now I'm returning with gold in great store
And I never will play the wild rover no more.

CHO: And it's no, nay, never,
No nay never no more,
Will I play the wild rover
No never no more.

I went to an alehouse I used to frequent
And I told the landlady my money was spent.
I asked her for credit, she answered me "Nay.
Such a custom as yours I could have any day."

CHO:

I took from my pocket ten sovereigns bright
And the landlady's eyes opened wide with delight.
She said, "I have whiskey and wines of the best,
And the words that I spoke sure were only in jest."

She reached up behind her to grab a glass from the shelf,
And I says, "Aha", just laughing to myself.
She said, "But, dear sir, your whiskey is poured."
I said, "Keep/Stick your bad whiskey, you bloody old fraud".

CHO:

There was Katy and Nancy and Margaret and Sue,
And three or four more who belonged to our crew.
We'd stay up 'til midnight and make the place roar.
I've been a wild boy but I'll be one no more.

I'll go home to my parents, confess what I've done,
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son.
And if they caress (forgive) me as ofttimes before,
Sure I never will play the wild rover no more.

TGIF
John