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Opinionated Civil War Music Article
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,LynnT Date: 13 Mar 01 - 02:59 PM I've been doing living history for some twenty-odd years now, mostly SCA, but other groups too (my first big event was Pennsic 5; for context, last summer was #29 or so). When I started out, I just wanted to have fun hanging out with my friends in fancy clothes -- and didn't care as much for accuracy as for color and interesting cut. I wince now at the photos of me at old SCA events wearing mismatched Victoriana. I was happy to sing along on any tune that came around the firecircle, made no distinction between "Barrett's Privateers", "The Witch of the Westmerelands" or "Matty Groves" -- though even then I loved a good madrigal -- and was not concerned as to whether my (improvised) accompaniment was consistent with the style or time of the piece. But over time I began to appreciate the details that made a thoroughly-medieval camp set in a consistent period hang together: the tools, the tents, the clothing, the lighting sources, the food (storage, preparation and consumption), and yes, the music. And the conversations. Really blows things to have folks in a quality 13th-century setting talking about computers or car repair. It all builds, and it's all pretty fragile. These days, for myself, if I know how to do it "right", I'll need a real good reason for doing it another way; for others, I appreciate the tolerance others extended to me when I was starting out (with my sometimes-defiant attitude then towards the "authenticity Nazi" I've now myself become) and try real hard not to spoil others' fun. For me, the fun is in figuring out "how they did it" -- then achieving recognizably similar results, whether it's costumery, cookery, or music. I prefer period works, but will take modern stuff done in a period mode... LynnT
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: katlaughing Date: 13 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM BDP, I am still here. I just refuse to answer an anonymous someone who was obviously flaming one of our esteemed regulars. Was it you? If so, I would encourage you to join up, so that you don't have to remember to type in your name all of the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Blind Desert Pete Date: 13 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM Kat: Sorry, not a flame. I did not think Guests comments were a flame either. nope not me. But back to topic-- Yure darn tootin its an opinionated article. that what authors do. I have to agree with most of his points concerning amps, innapropriat styles, bluegrass,etc BUT I play a steel string banjo so guess where my ox is gored? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Les B Date: 13 Mar 01 - 03:50 PM OK, I'll ask. What is a "farb" ?? It's not a term I recognize from the Fur Trade Rendezvous camps I've been going to for a decade.
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Kim C Date: 13 Mar 01 - 04:45 PM A farb is someone who doesn't care if they're authentic or not. You might often see such a person wearing modern cowboy boots and cowboy hat with their poorly-made uniform. As far as guitars in camp... well, it depends on the camp. If you're talking about soldiers on the move, probably not. If you're talking about a garrison camp, maybe so. Garrison camps often had civilian visitors so in that situation you might find things you wouldn't find in a campaign camp. If you're talking about a civilian refugee camp... depending on economic status, some people fled their homes with every darn thing that would go in the wagon. Others had no more than the clothes they were wearing. So there are a lot of variables to consider. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Irish sergeant Date: 13 Mar 01 - 04:46 PM Les B: A "Farb" is someone deemed not to be "Authentic' in their presentation at a Civil War re-enactment. It is a term most likely bandied about by self-styled "authentic" re-enactors. It is considered an offensive term. Having said that, I have seen documentation of sutlers during the Civil War who specialized in renting instruments such as guitars to soldiers while they were in camp or garrison for extended times. The problem is that many of these so called authentics use authenticity as a power play. As a re-enactor, i got into it for the comradeship and the love of history. By the same token, I'm not going to get dysentery or smell like three day old pole cat. i don't want real minie flying my way. Troll; I don't know what events you've done but you can park it at my campfire anytime (12th US Co. A, USV) Yes, I sleep in an A-tent but I have done the bedroll thing. Yes I carry a Yamaha classical guitar. The case and tuner stay in my tent under a gray wool blanket. Keep in mind that the soldiers in this country haven't changed a lot in 140 years. They would have killed to sleep in a barn so the tent thing is a bit of a non-issue. You don't like my impression? Offer constructive advice. If you can't do that, leave me be. I don't need a ration of bovine effluvia from anyone when I'm out to relax. This is after all a hobby. If you want to jaw, stop by. I haven't turned anyone away from my fire yet or failed to offer them a cup of coffee. I try to play period music when I'm there. I include "I'm a Good Old Rebel" and "Tom Dooley" even though they are not strictly Civil War songs. Both were written shortly after the war but I want to include a well balanced repertoire that gives an idea of the conflicting emotion that the war caused. I'd love to play an authentic instrument but many of us just don't have that kind of money. In closing, I don't have anything against campaign style reenactors (Authentics although i understand the new term is progressive) I do have a big jones about people who deem it their right under the guise of authenticity to walk all over everyone they deem farbs. Kindest reguards to all, Neil There is debate as to whether or not uniforms had hand sewn button holes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: katlaughing Date: 13 Mar 01 - 04:55 PM BDP, thank you for answering me. GUEST flamed, imo, when s/he accused Banjer of "if you're just interest making a lot of noice shotting guns off and in partying with your friends." That makes it seem quite evident that guest/anon knows nothing about Banjer and should not be encourage by responses, IMO. I have absolutely nothing against banjos...in fact you can see a picture of my dad playing his on my photoloft page listed in the Mudcatters photo threads in the Permathreads.
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Kim C Date: 13 Mar 01 - 05:01 PM Neil - while I have never seen anything other than a hand-stitched buttonhole on an original garment, I have been told by sewing machine experts that one of the manufacturers had a patent on a machine buttonholer as early as 1862. Who was actually able to get aholt of such a critter is unknown to me. I am one of those sick individuals who actually likes handsewing buttonholes! :-) Hey, a well-made buttonhole is a thing of beauty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: JedMarum Date: 13 Mar 01 - 05:15 PM I gather thet CW soldiers on the move would not bother carrying any instrument. And I buy the arguement that the dulcimer was not popular, and probably too heavy and bulky to bother with. It also makes sense that once soldiers were encamped for a while that locals would lend or rent instruments out. I'd have had a hard time without an instrument - guess that's where a harmonica or penny whistle would com in handy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: JedMarum Date: 13 Mar 01 - 05:19 PM ... and Les - which track did you hear, do you remember? Obviously you have a fine radio station out there, with excellent taste! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,D.A. Date: 13 Mar 01 - 05:29 PM The public doesn't know the difference. For Sure. Ya know what else? They don't give a shit, either! They come to watch TV, not learn . Anything they just happen to pick up by accident they've forgot before they get half way home. Get a grip, hey? Want to play dress-up, go ahead, but don't pretend its something it isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST Date: 13 Mar 01 - 06:08 PM Kat, you are correct in criticizing my negative attitude and apologize for jumping to conclusions about an individual I know nothing about. I focused in on what I perceived as a very selfish act, and drew conclusions beyond the scope of reasonableness. This has been a string of one negative attitude (the original article noted above), fallowed by counter negative attitudes (unreasonable "hardcore") and so forth. I humbly confess my embarrassment at having slung the mud around. In the interest of correcting past wrongs, I would like to retract my negative comments, wipe the slate clean, and start anew. Focusing instead on what I perceive as the core issue, what is reasonable for a Civil War impression. Let me start by giving you some background as to my involvement in Civil War re-enacting. As stated previously, I'm am not, nor ever have been, a Civil War re-enactor. My wife and I have on the other hand enjoyed a number of Civil War events as members of the general viewing public. We attended the 125th anniversary of Antietam, more by accident that anything else, but enjoyed it so much that we have subsequently been to see the 135th anniversary of Gettysburg, and the battle of Cedar Creek. While a grand scale pickets charge is very impressive, the greatest joy is walking through the authentic camps and talking to the soldiers. It is very fascinating to see, hear and learn about the life of the typical common soldier, the "grunts," during this period of time. Criticism of the "hardcore" may be warranted in some cases, but it is the hard work of these guys (and gals) that give the public the greatest understand of American life during this defining period of our American culture. We attended an event at Fort McHenry last year were five members of a Calvary outfit came all the way from Ohio to give a public demonstration. The size of their group did not compare to those of Gettysburg, but it was the most informative presentations I've seen to date. Now to the issue of reasonable Civil War impressions. I obviously can not speak for the general public as a whole, but I hope that you will at least take into consideration the thoughts of this one member of the public. I also acknowledge that the specific incident that I referred to in the previous post was conducted at night away from the general public, and my response reflects an empathy for the feelings of other re-enactors. As correctly stated in previous posts, it is impossible and unreasonable to portray a completely authentic civil war character. Many exceptions have to be accepted such as physical limitations like age and physical condition, as well as issues of hygiene, etc. In addition to these issues, there are also the practical issues of money and time limitations. It must also be accepted that a newbie will not start off with the same level of authenticity of as a 10 year vet, however some minimum levels must met. As I think you would agree, showing up in gray or blue trousers from Sears is not sufficient for even a newbie. Obviously, anyone who is willing to spend a thousand dollars on their gear has more than a casual an interest in this hobby. But what I thinks separates the "Farbs" from the rests is whether you let history guide your choices, or do you try to adjust history to suite your personal preferences. True, dulcimers did exist during this time period, but were they typical of the ordinary soldier? Are you letting history guide your choices of musical instruments, or are you adjusting history to suite your preferences? Also to what extent should consideration of others guide ones judgement? A banjo is typical, a dulcimer is not. Having said all this, I would appreciate it if you would let me know if this is reasonable to you or not? Sincerely yours |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: katlaughing Date: 13 Mar 01 - 06:18 PM Thank you, GUEST, though I would still prefer you sign more of a name. I do appreciate your understanding what upset me about your assumptions about Banjer. I will let the others answer your very valid questions, as they are much more knowledgable than me about such re-enactments. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,KickyC Date: 13 Mar 01 - 06:51 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,KickyC Date: 13 Mar 01 - 07:00 PM Sorry, I hit the wrong key. This was interesting reading. However, for dulcimer players and dulcimer lovers everywhere, whether or not they were used in the Civil War, they are not "silly" instruments. Musicians are very attached to their instruments and equating dulcimers with silly is just like telling me I am a "silly" person for enjoying it. Also, my dulcimer is neither heavier nor bulkier than either my guitar or my banjo, so I don't understand that argument. I'm sure if soldiers were taking instruments along to war, they would take one they could play. If the only one they could play was a dulcimer, well... KickyC
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Ole Bull Date: 13 Mar 01 - 07:31 PM My two cents please; a 25 year reenactor with an "authentic" musician impression. Yes, Jon comes on strong and loves to talk about how much he knows(a little too much knowledge that is dangerous), but when you get past that you will see his main point. What most people believe to be old music is actually quite modern. Jon's intent is to improve the scolarship of the subject which is one of the excellent by-products of reenacting. Some more perspective. Forget the "they had it, they'd have used it" mentality (dulcimers, steel strings, mandolins, etc.), it was, as today, a question of fashion, what was common, what was rare, what was the trendy thing. Are you likely to see an oboe in a rock'n'roll band? No, and this is one of Jon's points. And too many do what is fun and simple for them and ignore the thill of the search, the discovery and the opportunity to learn, to teach and enlighten. I don't buy the "can't afford it" line. Period instruments are no more expensive than your musket or your Yamaha. Banjos are fun to make and not that difficult. I do fing some photos of soldiers with guitars, but more with banjos, which was the hip instrument. Leave the steel strings and picks at home along with the mandolins. Although harmonicas were but a novelty, a toy, at least take the covers off them so they resemble those as they were made then. And if all you guys who complain about the authenticity nazis had just taken up the fiddle I would have been a happy guy long ago. If I never hear another Neil Young tune around the campfire my pleasure would be complete. Some roots of folk music education is good for the Mudcat crew. Too little attention is paid to much of our fine musical tradition if it's pre-Lomax or not on CD or tape. After all the first indiginous American art was not Jazz, but Minstrel! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Banjer Date: 13 Mar 01 - 07:55 PM MY, my, what one can miss by a few days away! Guest, I don't understand what your problem may be but as has been pointed out, the dulcimer was around during the time. Sitting here looking at both my banjo and my dulcimer, I can't see where carrying the banjo would have been any easier than the dulcimer. The dulcimer is much shorter and could easily have been carried hanging from one's shoulder. We portray an artillery unit which would have had more access to wheeled vehicles than the ordinary foot soldier. More gear could have been carried per man. We portray the 1st Pennsylania Light Artillery, D Battery US, and are also equipped to portray Rockbridge Light Artillery, D Battery CSA. Much research has gone into our impression. My wife's ggguncle James enlisted in the 1st Pa. Light Art'y at the age of 17 in 1861. We have copies of many of his records from the Archives in Washington. He remained in the service on active duty until 1898. If you would take the time to visit the Photoloft Galley available through the permathread, you could view pictures of our camp. I challenge you to find ancronisms! Most of our music is authentic, but as I pointed out if we do a piece that is not exactly of the period, and we happen to have an audience during our playing we will point out to them that the piece was not of the period we performed it because we felt it was close enough that it would fit. We DO strive for historical accuracy. As for your thoughts on me living my 'silly' dulcimer at home, it happens to be an instrument I enjoy, and since enjoyment of the weekend and of the company is important to me, I don't think I will heed that advice. If you happen upon my camp and the sound of the dulcimer upsets you that much, please pass us by! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Banjer Date: 13 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM Me again...I have said my piece. I will not respond to any more 'flame' type reponses. That is not the purpose of this thread. Thank you |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 13 Mar 01 - 08:07 PM Thanks all: I understood farb from the context - pre 1840 encampments deal with the same issues . I thought maybe it was a neat acronym like "fake re-enactor bubba," or some such. Jed - I believe the track played from your CD was "Streets of Falls River," but wouldn't swear to it in court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST Date: 13 Mar 01 - 08:07 PM Please note that the reference to a dulcimer being out of place in a Civil War camp, was based on your own comment of March 9. If a dumcimer is in fact appropriate for a Civil War camp, then why in your March 9th post did you say it was not? This is a good example of how you guys can confuse those of us in the general public when you are not careful. Respectfully yours |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Banjer Date: 13 Mar 01 - 08:36 PM My comments were; 'We usually cover a multitude of questions with a few simple answers., 'Yes, it's a real dulcimer, no it probably would not have been found in a period camp.' 'Yes, the music we play is a close to period as we can produce it'. I also stated that; Most of our playing is done after the camps are closed to the public. Hopefuly folks like yourself who don't like seeing others enjoy their days off are gone by that time and we can kick back, relax, and play the music we love! We have had folks like yourself come through our camps and start nit picking at every little thing that we have displayed. We have names for folks like that...I'm too polite to mention them here. g'day |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Pete M at work Date: 13 Mar 01 - 10:51 PM Well folks, I'm afraid I know little of these early 1860 sitcoms of which you speak, but being generally interested in military history, I've been following the thread with interest. A couple of thoughts come to mind, one to do with re-enactment. Given the typical supply chain problems in this era and the lengthy marches involved in the US civil war, I would suspect that the "typical" combatant would be wearing a complete mismatch of clothing with the 'official' uniform only vaguely discernible, and occasionally not at all, so having 'Authentic" uniforms may not be very authentic at all. Any comments from those of you who have researched the period, or participated in these events? Secondly, I'm not sure which version of the planet you re-enact on Old Bull, but I seem to remember that when Deep Thought specified this particular one there were indigenous American art forms including music, several thousand years prior to "Minstrel" Pete M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Wotcha Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:29 AM Clearly the writer is venting a little from his perspective. I can empathize somewhat. How often do you watch historical TV shows and view 1970s hair on "actors" portraying 1914 and 1940s folks or they sport incorrectly placed insignia on uniforms etc. I suppose reenactors want to do a bit better than Hollywood. Once you are in the know on a subject, messing up the details can spoil things a bit. However, no point in driving away the people you want to educate either. What of the folks from across the Pond? Gentlemen of the Sealed Knot have not been mentioned so far. Any comments? Cheers, Brian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Banjer Date: 14 Mar 01 - 06:21 AM Pete M makes a very good point. The mismatch of uniform parts was more prevalent in the Southern armies than in the North. Most northern units were much better equipped than their soutehrn counterparts. Using just a bit of imaginitaion the theory could also be advanced that troops on the march, having been known to 'forage' could have found items of clothing in abandoned houses and maybe even some musical instruments which could have been carried back to the camps and used until time to form up and move on. Will GUEST accept that? Did a member of my unit find a silly dulcimer and bring it into camp with him? **BG** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Mar 01 - 07:13 AM What I'll write may seem like a lot of thread creep, but it isn't. First, look at the authenticity nerd thread for comparison. A deviation from authenticity may bother me in one field and not at all in another. So I understand both camps and have deep respect for both approaches, but don't understand a all the harsh words.
When I was much younger I loved steam engines and miniature trains. There was the authenticity camp. They cringed when a miniature engine was combined with a car from the wrong period or if an engine (in play) stopped at a station where it never has been in reality. They discussed deviations from reality down to the size of tenths of millimeters (in the appropriate scale). They were happy if after one and a half years of hard work they could send one authentic miniature train from one station to another and even the cows were looking correct (cows did change over the decades!). I can feel the thrill of both approaches. In some areas I care in others I don't. So what. But I think you could be more tolerant of each other. What is wrong with somebody who has no fun if the play is below his/her standards and what is wrong with somebody who has fun at a lower level of authenticity? Nothing, except that they perhaps should not try to play together. To sing 'The wild rover' with three guitar chords may be fun and appropriate in many Irish pubs, but you shouldn't try it in a setting in which very good musicians have just finished playing a set of jigs. Just don't assume that other have fun the same way you do. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: artbrooks Date: 14 Mar 01 - 07:54 AM Picture a Civil War vintage camp. Big white tents. Cooks boiling everything up in giant iron kettles. Rations. Ammunition. Other stuff. I have the reference around someplace, but my recollection is that the typical Union INFANTRY regiment had a wagon train of several dozen vehicles. The soldier on the march carried his personal weapon and a small pack. The question of fretted or fretless banjo is important to some, but the SIZE of the instrument just isn't relevant...it would have been pitched into a wagon and retrieved later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Ole Bull Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:44 AM Dear Pete M; The same planet as yours I suspect. And we agree (I also suspect)in that the often heard allusion to Jazz is narrow indeed. And I do concede that I would have been correct to include the term "novel" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Kim C Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:25 AM "Period instruments are no more expensive than your musket or your Yamaha." I don't know where you live, Ole Bull, but if period instruments there are cheap, I'm on the next train out. Mister's Enfield (that's a musket for those of you who may not know) was about $385. Vintage violins AND their bows are easily twice, if not three and four (and more) times that. If one has the time and ability to build a banjo, great. If you buy a reproduction period banjo from George Wunderlich in St. Louis, expect to pay at least $500. If you want the Stauffer 1830s reproduction guitar that Elderly Instruments is selling, hand over your $1500. If you want a real 1850s Martin in playing condition, take out a second mortgage on your house. Period instruments ARE expensive; and as stated before, no one in their right mind is going to take them camping and subject them to adverse weather and temperature conditions, not to mention the risk of theft. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Nik Date: 14 Mar 01 - 10:46 AM Consider this your personal invitation to visit Sharpsburg, Md. over the September 15-16,2001 weekend for the SHARPSBURG HERITAGE FESTIVAL. You'll hear good music popular during the Civil War--and hear townspeople retell battle tales--and tall tales, too. The little town sat at the center of the conflict during the Battle of Antietam. Then, the 1300 townspeople helped care for 11000 wounded soldiers from the North and South. Some were there for months. Yes, they used musical instruments belonging to local families. If its any help to those trying to figure out whether or not the duclimer would be an appropriate instrument, I have a 1845 book of "music for the dulcimore" purchased at an estate sale in Sharpsburg along with a dulcimer shaped like a long thin box. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Ole Bull Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:27 PM Hi Kim; I did not say "cheap" but I know a lot of reenactors who spend lot's more on lots of other stuff... You don't have to get a Martin. I have picked up several 19th century no-name parlor guitars for under $200 dollars (uncluding refit parts- bridges and the like) that I don't mind taking out. And numerous fiddles, bows, and even coffin cases for the same. These can be made period in apearance to pass all but the apraiser's eye. Certainly as "authentic" as your Armi-sport Enfield. I don't think that George W's servicable repro banjo's are outrageous at under $500. Is it not unreasonable to suggest that people try it? At least players can go nylon and quit the flatpicking. T'would be an improvement, don't you agree? What do you need? Maybe I can find stuff for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Kim C Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:36 PM As a matter of fact, I would love a parlor guitar, and another violin. Those things don't seem to pop up around Nashville. But that will have to wait until after my summer vacation in June. The most expensive reenacting gear I have ever bought was a pair of shoes at $125. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Bert Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:39 PM I don't think anyone is saying that you should not try to get things right - that's all part of the fun trying to get as close as you can. One time we had about a week to make four costumes for a Renaissance fair. We looked up period costumes in the libraray, made our own patterns and bought material that looked as close as we could get within our budget. My Oud had just broken and there was no way that I could find another instrument in the time. So I faked it with a paper doily stuck over the soundhole of my Yamaha guitar. There were a couple of people there who did know what they were doing. Fortunately they were quite amused by it and were quite positive in their comments. It's fun - no one can ever get it completely correct - so don't be so uptight about these things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Pete M Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM Hi Old Bull, thanks for the comments, I've re-read your original post and realise that I may have been a bit hasty. It is a common problem that we are all prey to at some time or another, using the term "American' indiscriminately to mean both the American continent and the political construct of the US. (I know it annoys the hell out of Canadians). So if you were using the term in it's narrow sense to mean an art form indiginous to the USA rather than to the part of the land mass that it occupies or any political construct which preceeded it, then I would think your assertion is correct. Just shows you have to be bloody careful about your terminology if you want to be 'authentic' ;-) OK thats my bout of pedantry for today. Pete M PS I also realise that you may not be familiar with the "Hitch hikers Guide" and so have taken my comment as being rather more acerbic than I intended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Irish sergeant Date: 14 Mar 01 - 07:37 PM Kim: The remark about button holes was not meant to flame. Hell, if people enjoy sewing them more power. It was meant for those who seem to think everyone but them is doing it wrong. For my guitar, it's a Yamaha I bought used for $150. My musket I bought used for twice that. I use nylon exclusively (Unreinforced neck) and never mastered the art of using a pick. I do try to make the music as close as possible but I don't normally play until the spectators leave and I have friends who like "Lili Marlene" (Circa 1914 for the lyrics and 1935 for the music) And another who likes "Long, Long trail" Circa 1917. Are they unauthentic? You betchum Red Ryder. But when the "Turistas" are gone, we are amusing ourselves. I don't play them around the crowds. I refuse to submit a play list at events. Don't like it don't listen but don't bitch either. I was playing guitar before I was reenacting. You won't hear Dylan around our campfire and you certainly won't hear anything later than 1870 while there are spectators present unless you count Garryowen which predates the U.S. Civil War by decades (It was originally the marching song for Her Majesty's Fifth Irish Lancers) See my above comments. I really don't wish to carp on this anymore. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,johnson Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:13 PM i try this reinacting once, the shooting part was fun. whatpissed me off was in pitching tent, and i had just gotten this tent from sears and everything. some officer types told us we couldn't camp there cause it wasn't period. likr who cares, the shows over. me and my buddy had to sleep on the other side of the field. it was no fun. and the guys buddy is making jokes about the lawn chairs, real jerk. im with you banjer when the day is doen its time to put the stiff collar stuff away and kick back. if i ever try this again ill look for your camp, sounds like you know were its at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,LD Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:20 AM Johnson, I'm sorry your experience wasn't the best, but what you need to realize is that authenticity standard don't just end when the "shooting part" is over. A good civil impression continues throughout the whole weekend. I fact many reenactors cherish the camp scene as the most realistic and rewarding part of the day. My two cents. Best of luck pard |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: wildlone Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:31 PM As a reenactor of many years [over 30 years] I have come across the authentifacists in many diguises. If we were to play our role as it should be no article of clothing or equipment used is to be older than the period depicted. Try finding medieval clothing that is totaly original. What we try to do is depict the life and times of the period, and to do it in as authentic way as we can. I am now the pioneer of the 23rd Royal Welch Fusileers to kit myself out has cost up to now over £300 pounds and I have just ordered a red coat made from woollen cloth woven by the same weavers that wove wool for the soldiers at Waterloo, veg dyed,hand finished at £200 pounds a bearskin that I have not even asked the price of. I have also ordered an axe for parade use but as I cannot afford to have it covered in sterling silver [shefield plate] I am having it nickle plated instead Enough ranting dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Banjer Date: 17 Mar 01 - 05:38 PM I don't mean to upset ya there Johnson, but with your authentic Sears and Rob Bucks tent you ain't gettin' into my camp! All our tents, the 10x12 officers wall tent and the four 9x6 a-lines are all authentic camp material. The only thing I said was that when the crowd has gone home we will be heard playing music that may be later than 1865..We still reamin in uniform and proper authentic mode. Sorry... |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Lighter Date: 09 Aug 18 - 07:25 PM Maybe I'm the only one still around who finds this thread interesting. There's a movement among some classical musicians to use only historically accurate instruments, so that what we hear is virtually identical to what they heard in the eighteenth century or whenever. Modern instruments often have a slightly richer and fuller sound. On the other hand, if you're used to the modern ones, you might fixate on the difference in sound: something, of course, that the original audiences didn't have to think about. So as usual, the demanded level of "authenticity" at some point becomes a matter of taste. That goes for all trad music-making, perhaps especially in the context of historical re-enactment for audiences who by and large can't tell the styles of Pete Seeger or Joan Baez from those of the Limeliters, Bill Monroe, or Sam Sweeney: http://civil-war-picket.blogspot.com/2014/01/jeb-stuarts-banjo-player-and-famous.html Over the years I've been collecting mp3s of Civil War music. It's almost *impossible* to find a recording that sounds "just like" or even "a whole lot like" what we know or can surmise about the sounds of the period. The "folk" voices are too polished, the bands too elaborate, the styles too bluegrassy, pop, or bluesy, the instruments too lush, piano accompaniments too modernist, etc., etc. Maybe the old-timey fiddle-and-banjo duos come closest to the "folk sound" of the 1860s: but unless the banjo is gut-strung and fretless with a squirrel-hide head, the fiddle kind if squeaky, the tempo a little slower, and the eighth-notes a little scarcer, the sound still won't be absolutely "typical" for the period. Musical instruments could not easily be carried on campaign except in officers' baggage, and foot soldiers wanted to carry as little wight as possible. The point of this is not to diss current renditions of Civil War music. It's simply to say that absolute authenticity sometimes has to take a back seat to what sounds good enough - or better, as the case may be. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Julia L Date: 12 Aug 18 - 05:18 PM I'd just like to mention that there was, historically, a great spectrum of music played and sung during the Civil War period, both on and off the battlefield, both accompanied and a capella. More formal music could be heard in concert halls and high-class soirees, popular music was dispensed in the form of chapbooks and sheet music to be sung in parlors and social gathering places, religious songs were sung in churches and revival tents, etc etc. These songs migrated between classes and communities, were adapted, parodied, and mis-remembered creating various versions, all "authentic". It's important to understand the social function of music in the culture- to inspire, entertain, mourn or celebrate, sharing ideas, events and feelings. People would do well to explore archives, journals and historical resources when preparing authentic programming. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Lighter Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:32 PM All very true, Julia. I would only add that real classical music (say, Rossini's "William Tell Overture," composed in 1829, or opera) could be heard mainly in concert halls in a few big cities like Boston, New York, and Philadelphia. But well-to-do "Civil War people" certainly were familiar with it. Since this is a "folk music" forum, let me add something about folk music. It's a popular practice to day to sing traditional songs to a lone fiddle accompaniment, but to judge from the comments of later folksong collectors, that practice was extremely rare. "Spanish guitars" were not very common nationally, autoharps uninvented, dulcimers known mainly in the Appalachians, hammered dulcimers rare and expensive. Even among Irish immigrants, uillean pipes were extremely rare (very expensive). Some Scots immigrants played bagpipes, but they were still solo instruments and not used in marching bands as they were in the British Army. Flutes, of course, were easily portable. Minstrel troupes typically used a fiddle, a banjo, a tambourine, and a pair of bones. Outside of the drums and wind instruments of military bands, these, plus the recently invented harmonica, were the typical instruments one might find in an army camp on either side. I can't recall any reference to tin whistles, but they were cheap and available. The most typical musical sound of the period, other than that of the fiddle, flute, banjo, parlor piano, minstrel performance, or fife and drum corps may have been that of the brass band, military or civilian, which played all sorts of music. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Jack Campin Date: 13 Aug 18 - 04:02 AM The Minstrel Boy to war has gone With his wild harp slung behind him... If you've seen something like the Trinity College harp... no. Maybe wild harps had an oilskin over a split cane frame for the body? |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,julia L Date: 13 Aug 18 - 07:15 AM Very funny , Jack! Actually there is evidence that some early harps did have a skin soundboard ... Anyway, regarding "typical music" I would say that hands down the most prevalent music would have been a cappella singing. People sang all the time then . It was part of their education in school and church, as well as common at home and work. And people were better at singing than we are as a result. Of the thousands of songs recorded in several early 20th C collections that I have been listening to only a small percentage are accompanied by any instrument at all. The human voice is cheap, portable and capable. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Lighter Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:41 AM Right again. As for "The Minstrel Boy," maybe it was a trade war. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Brian Peters Date: 13 Aug 18 - 03:34 PM It's a popular practice to day to sing traditional songs to a lone fiddle accompaniment, but to judge from the comments of later folksong collectors, that practice was extremely rare. There are one or two interesting examples, though: Cecil Sharp noted half a dozen songs from Napoleon Fitzgerald, Beechgrove, VA, 24/5/1918, and wrote: "He began by singing in a very loud and untaught voice while he played the fiddle, putting in as many drone notes as he could. At my request he afterwards sang unaccompanied." The Hensley family, from whom Sharp recorded a number of songs in Carmen, NC, during 1916 , characteristically performed as an ensemble, with Reuben Hensley stating the melody on the fiddle, before his wife and daughter sang the song in unison. Reuben himself sang a couple of snatches of song with the fiddle. Alan Lomax recorded nine songs from Jim Howard in Hazard, KY, which I rather like. Those are obviously some time after the Civil War, of course. On a related matter, I heard the opinion expressed a little while ago that much of what we now think of as Appalachian fiddle repertoire arose from published Scottish collections copied out into tune books for the use of Civil War musicians. I can provide no supporting publications, though. Any comments? |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Lighter Date: 13 Aug 18 - 05:04 PM Those *are* interesting, Brian. Thanks for calling our attention to them. It isn't surprising that now and again somebody would think to sing while playing the fiddle (or vice versa). It just doesn't seem to have been at all usual. The first time (and only time for many years) that I heard singer accompanying himself on a fiddle was on an LP reissue of a 78 recording of the song "The Blind Fiddler" (Roud 7833) Henry Whitter may have been the performer. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Lighter Date: 13 Aug 18 - 07:33 PM As for the manuscript tune books of "Civil War musicians," there must have been some, but one would most likely have to be a band member or have an unusually large repertoire to need one. There were a number of published American collections for fife and drum, which included some traditional tunes like "Garryowen" and "The Girl I Left Behind Me." There were also "tutors" for banjo and for melodeon (another available but uncommon instrument). These contained lots of minstrel tunes like "Old Zip Coon," but not many tunes that we think of as "Appalachian." Maybe more to the point, my experience is that these published collections had very little of what we think of as the "Appalachian fiddle repertoire." I've been searching old newspaper data bases to find early mentions of the names of fiddle tunes (not just the Appalachian ones) and found few named before the 1890's. That's not to say the tunes weren't played, only that they weren't noticed much in print. Part of the reason may be that till about the time of the First World War, the Appalachians were quite (though certainly not wholly) isolated. Pop tunes were more likely to come in through the railroad than folk tunes would come out. And it may be a misconception that "most" or even "many" U.S. fiddle tunes "come from the British Isles." Two obvious examples would be "Soldier's Joy" and "The Girl I Left Behind Me" (both from the 18th century). There are others. What obviously came (or at least survived) were the reel and hornpipe forms - and very few jigs like "The Irish Washerwoman." Maybe somebody can expand the list. I believe that the tune of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" is a cousin of "John Anderson, My Jo." But neither is a typical "Appalachian fiddle tune." There may have been some French and German influences on the Appalachian repertoire as well. While the "Scotch-Irish" may have constituted the largest number of settlers, there were nearly as many English, and more French and Germans than one would expect. |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Julia L Date: 13 Aug 18 - 09:42 PM Re: fiddle tunes - there were hundreds of collections and tune books printed prior to 1860 and these would have been learned, passed on and adapted. Many songs were sung to these melodies as well Howe's 1000 jigs and reels (published by Mel Bay) Howe produced dozens of books like this Ryan's mammoth tune books etc etc |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: GUEST,Julia L Date: 13 Aug 18 - 09:46 PM By the way, Howe's book contains what he calls "Ethiopian melodies" such as 10 little Negroes, Happy are we darkies so gay,Get along home my yaller gals, plus Old Dan Tucker,Jim Crack Corn, and Jim Crow |
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Subject: RE: Opinionated Civil War Music Article From: Lighter Date: 13 Aug 18 - 10:09 PM > Howe's 1000 jigs and reels (published by Mel Bay) Howe produced dozens of books like this Ryan's mammoth tune books Lots of British and Irish tunes in these. I don't think you'll find "Old Joe Clark," "Barlow Knife," or "Last of Callahan," for example. The "Ethiopian melodies" are, of course, minstrel productions. |
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